Kobojunkie:
This is what I said

Are you saying Enoch and Elijah weren't under the curse of death passed on Adam and Eve?

TenQ:
■ Are you saying Enoch and Elijah weren't under the curse of death passed on Adam and Eve?

The curse condemned all those under it to be destroyed in the end— returned to the dust from which they were made after death. Abel, Abraham, Enoch, Noah, and Elijah were not destroyed by the curse meaning though they were all born under the curse, the curse did not wield absolute power over any of them. Righteousness is the key to overcoming the absolute power of the curse in question.

LordReed:


What am I not understanding?

Did I say he didn't have an experience?

It seems so!
His testimony as far as you are concerned is a tale not to be taken seriously

LMAO! Please laugh very well at this wonderful tale that you god believers cannot even agree on. Bwahahahahahaha!

It is either you deny he had an experience or you agree he does. If he does, then take it seriously

budaatum:


Yes. They think they don't know it but do. The unconscious is a very powerful thing, as is the mind.

They could also be lying that they do not know.

The mind can see beyond consciousness!!?

budaatum:


I am not denying NDEs or OBEs. I am claiming that what ever you experience under the terms is not a real physical thing.

Like you might see angels or go to heaven or hell as part of your NDE and or OBE, but claiming therefore that angels or heaven or hell exist or that you went to an actual heaven or hell is untrue.

If, as part of your NDE or OBE, you went to a lavish restaurants and ate a fancy meal, there would be no evidence of it in your belly and you'd be as hungry as you were before the experience just as would be the case if you dreamt it.

https://www.nairaland.com/7726647/near-death-experience-atheist-professor/1#123786239

In OBEs, people experience REAL life environment while physically not within such environment. OBEs are sometimes verified by others: there are many reports of that!

Kobojunkie:
The curse condemned all those under it to be destroyed in the end— returned to the dust from which they were made after death. Abel, Abraham, Enoch, Noah, and Elijah were not destroyed by the curse meaning though they were all born under the curse, the curse did not wield absolute power over any of them. Righteousness is the key to overcoming the absolute power of the curse in question.

But babies do die and end up as dusts.
Even foetus are not excepted.

Are these unrighteous?

And Daniel wasn't exempted! Why?

Kobojunkie:
1. Does God Himself believe in your subjective experiences? Nothing of the Born-again experience is subjective in nature since each and everyone has to experience the same things and come away with the same proofs. So where do these subjective experiences you speak of come from?

2. How in the world was the transfiguration on the Mount a subjective experience when it was witnessed by those around Jesus Christ at the time?

Subjective experiences are not repeatable by others And the experiences cannot be made available to others eg. Your Dreams.

However in the case, I speak about the Transfiguration of Christ.

I said :
Are you an Atheist? Atheists do not belive in subjective experiences! What about you?
Example : The Transfiguration of Christ!

TenQ:
■ But babies do die and end up as dusts. Even foetus are not excepted. Are these unrighteous?
■ And Daniel wasn't exempted! Why?

1. First of all, nobody is created/born holy or righteous or a sinner from birth. Rather one becomes a sinner the moment one begins to sin or one becomes holy through continuous submission and obedience to God's Law. Because of the curse of God against mankind as a result of Adam's sin, all are born unrighteous — removed from God— from birth. Only those who then seek God, and His Holiness are eventually able to be approved righteous by God.

2. Daniel is to this day sleeping in his grave — he didn't turn to dust according to the curse since Daniel was also approved righteous by God.

TenQ:
■ Subjective experiences are not repeatable by others And the experiences cannot be made available to others eg. Your Dreams. However in the case, I speak about the Transfiguration of Christ.
■ I said : Are you an Atheist? Atheists do not belive in subjective experiences! What about you? Example : The Transfiguration of Christ!

1. Unlike your dreams, the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ was witnessed by others—, and according to Jesus Christ will be experienced by all who belong to Him— meaning it does not fit the definition of that which is in fact a subjective experience in anywise.

2. According to you, dreams are subjective experiences, right?

TenQ:

It seems so!
His testimony as far as you are concerned is a tale not to be taken seriously


It is either you deny he had an experience or you agree he does. If he does, then take it seriously

Why must I take his experience seriously? Are all experiences to be taken seriously?

LordReed:


Why must I take his experience seriously? Are all experiences to be taken seriously?

His OBE!
If it is true, what explanation do you have for it?

Kobojunkie:
1. Unlike your dreams, the Transfiguration of Jesus Christ was witnessed by others—, and according to Jesus Christ will be experienced by all who belong to Him— meaning it does not fit the definition of that which is in fact a subjective experience in anywise.

2. According to you, dreams are subjective experiences, right?

Withnessed only by 3 disciples.
No one else have experienced it.
It is not repeatable by anyone.
Therefore the Transfiguration is a subjective experience of the 3 disciples of Jesus.

Kobojunkie:
1. First of all, nobody is created/born holy or righteous or a sinner from birth. Rather one becomes a sinner the moment one begins to sin or one becomes holy through continuous submission and obedience to God's Law. Because of the curse of God against mankind as a result of Adam's sin, all are born unrighteous — removed from God— from birth. Only those who then seek God, and His Holiness are eventually able to be approved righteous by God.

2. Daniel is to this day sleeping in his grave — he didn't turn to dust according to the curse since Daniel was also approved righteous by God.

Are you saying that, babies will suffer eternal death since they are unrighteous

On Daniel, you have no Scripture: do you!? . How about Joseph his bones were removed from Egypt. Elisha's bones raised the dead!
Were these righteous or u righteous?

TenQ:
■ Withnessed only by 3 disciples.No one else have experienced it.
■ It is not repeatable by anyone.
■ Therefore the Transfiguration is a subjective experience of the 3 disciples of Jesus.

1. The fact that it was witnessed by at least 1 other means that transfiguration does not fit the bill as far as subjective experiences go.

2. I don't understand exactly what you mean when you say it is not repeatable by anyone. Jesus Christ did state that all will become like angels, so what exactly do you mean?

3. Subjective experience of the 3 disciples of Jesus Christ. HUH?

Kobojunkie:
1. The fact that it was witnessed by at least 1 other means that transfiguration does not fit the bill as far as subjective experiences go.

2. I don't understand exactly what you mean when you say it is not repeatable by anyone. Jesus Christ did state that all will become like angels, so what exactly do you mean?

3. Subjective experience of the 3 disciples of Jesus Christ. HUH?

No ma. It is still subjective.
Was Moses and Elijah flesh and blood?
Didn't Jesus also transform?


Any non physical experience which cannot be replicated is a subjective experience.

TenQ:
■ Are you saying that, babies will suffer eternal death since they are unrighteous
■ On Daniel, you have no Scripture: do you!? . How about Joseph his bones were removed from Egypt. Elisha's bones raised the dead!
Were these righteous or u righteous?

1. Which one be babies will suffer eternal death again?

19 You will work hard for your food, until your face is covered with sweat. You will work hard until the day you die, and then you will become dust again. I used dust to make you, and when you die, you will become dust again.”
20 Adam named his wife Eve. He gave her this name because Eve would be the mother of everyone who ever lived.
21 The Lord God used animal skins and made some clothes for the man and his wife. Then he put the clothes on them.
22 The Lord God said, “Look, the man has become like us—he knows about good and evil. And now the man might take the fruit from the tree of life. If the man eats that fruit, he will live forever.”
23 So the Lord God forced the man out of the Garden of Eden to work the ground he was made from.
24 God forced the man to leave the garden. Then he put Cherub angels and a sword of fire at the entrance to the garden to protect it. The sword flashed around and around, guarding the way to the tree of life. - Genesis 3 vs 19 - 24

2. No Scripture of what on Daniel? Oh...wait...so...all this while you have been
ROFLMAO


Please try to understand the curse, and its ramifications as stated in the above passage before you respond. The curse, as I explained, is meant to destroy a man entirely — cease to exist— in the grave. However, the power of the curse which is to destroy a man entirely in the grave does not hold over the righteous. All of the righteous who are reported to have died are in fact not dead but sleeping in their graves to be raised back to life again by God. However, all the unrighteous dead will not be raised back from the dead because the curse utterly destroyed them in the grave - there is no holding place which like you imagine called hell where the essence of their beings is stored or kept. No, the man is utterly destroyed by the curse. That is what that curse is about.

TenQ:
■ No ma. It is still subjective. Was Moses and Elijah flesh and blood? Didn't Jesus also transform?
■ Any non physical experience which cannot be replicated is a subjective experience.

1. Moses and Elijah will be flesh again, so also the disciples who are long dead will too. But I am more interested in the fact that this so-called subjective experience was witnessed by others outside of Jesus Christ and the description we have is of that revealed by third parties and not Jesus Christ Himself. Making it non-subjective.

2. The transfiguration was physically witnessed by the disciples, yes? The dream I had last night was not physically witnessed by anyone outside of my person, yes?

Kobojunkie:
1. Which one be babies will suffer eternal death again?

Babies are born unrighteous you said : did I get you wrong? What happens to unrighteous people after resurection?
Do dead babies cease to exist?

Kobojunkie:

2. No Scripture of what on Daniel? Oh...wait...so...all this while you have been
ROFLMAO


Please try to understand the curse, and its ramifications as stated in the above passage before you respond. The curse, as I explained, is meant to destroy a man entirely — cease to exist— in the grave. However, the power of the curse which is to destroy a man entirely in the grave does not hold over the righteous. All of the righteous who are reported to have died are in fact not dead but sleeping in their graves to be raised back to life again by God. However, all the unrighteous dead will not be raised back from the dead because the curse utterly destroyed them in the grave - there is no holding place which like you imagine called hell where the essence of their beings is stored or kept. No, the man is utterly destroyed by the curse. That is what that curse is about.

I guess you Bible reported the death and burial of Daniel.

Are you saying that the righteous will Nit return to dust at death?

TenQ:
■ Babies are born unrighteous you said : did I get you wrong? What happens to unrighteous people after resurection? Do dead babies cease to exist?
■ I guess you Bible reported the death and burial of Daniel.
■ Are you saying that the righteous will Nit return to dust at death?

1. According to Genesis 3 vs 16 there, there is no resurrection for the unrighteous since they all cease to exist in their graves. So, why do you reject what is written in order to assert that which is not written though?

2. You mean because Daniel's death was not reported, we are to assume he never died at all?

3. "From dust you(mind, body, and soul) were made and to dust you(mind, body, and soul) will be returned" is figurative speak which means one ceases to exist in the grave i.e. perish in the grave. The righteous, however, do not perish in the grave.

TenQ:

His OBE!
If it is true, what explanation do you have for it?

You haven't answered either of my questions.

Nothing to see here. His delusions are not proof of the existence of God.

Kobojunkie:
1. According to Genesis 3 vs 16 there, there is no resurrection for the unrighteous since they all cease to exist in their graves. So, why do you reject what is written in order to assert that which is not written though?

Jesus said that the kingdom og God belongs to children and childlike people.
If children/babies are unrighteous, are you saying that Jesus was wrong?

Kobojunkie:

2. You mean because Daniel's death was not reported, we are to assume he never died at all?

You are the one insinuating that.

Kobojunkie:

3. "From dust you(mind, body, and soul) were made and to dust you(mind, body, and soul) will be returned" is figurative speak which means one ceases to exist in the grave i.e. perish in the grave. The righteous, however, do not perish in the grave.

If the righteous do not perish in the grave but sleeping : how come Elisha and Joseph were reduced to just bones in their grave?
What happened to their bodies?

LordReed:


You haven't answered either of my questions.

You didn't ask me any question I'm aware of. It's you I see not answering my question.

Your last question :

Why must I take his experience seriously? Are all experiences to be taken seriously?

My response

1. His OBE!
2. If it is true, what explanation do you have for it?

TenQ:
■ Jesus said that the kingdom og God belongs to children and childlike people. If children/babies are unrighteous, are you saying that Jesus was wrong?
■ You are the one insinuating that.
■ If the righteous do not perish in the grave but sleeping : how come Elisha and Joseph were reduced to just bones in their grave?
What happened to their bodies?

1. Technically, what Jesus Christ said is that the Kingdom of God belongs to those who are like children, not actually to children.

1 About that time the followers came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in God’s kingdom?”
2 Jesus called a little child to come to him. He stood the child in front of the followers.
3 Then he said, “The truth is, you must change your thinking and become like little children. If you don’t do this, you will never enter God’s kingdom.
4 The greatest person in God’s kingdom is the one who makes himself humble like this child.
5 “Whoever accepts a little child like this in my name is accepting me. - Matthew 18 vs 1 - 5

Jesus Christ compared those who are His followers to children pretty much every chance He got.

13 Then the people brought their little children to Jesus so that he could lay his hands on them to bless them and pray for them. When the followers saw this, they told the people to stop bringing their children to him.
14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me. Don’t stop them, because God’s kingdom belongs to people who are like these children.”
15 After Jesus blessed the children, he left there. - Matthew 19 vs 13 - 15

...

15 Some people brought their small children to Jesus so that he could lay his hands on them to bless them. But when the followers saw this, they told the people not to do this.
16 But Jesus called the little children to him and said to his followers, “Let the little children come to me. Don’t stop them, because God’s kingdom belongs to people who are like these little children.
17 The truth is, you must accept God’s kingdom like a little child accepts things, or you will never enter it.” - Luke 18 vs 15 - 16

Jesus Christ was, however, definitive in stating that except a man is born-again — born of water and born of Spirit — He cannot step foot near the Kingdom of God. And of course, only those among the born-agains who are judged righteous at the end will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46

2. I never did since I made clear Daniel was also a righteous man and hence was not crushed by the curse either.

3. You do understand what figurative speech is, right? That Joseph was reduced to bones does not mean the same as Joseph no longer exists. Joseph sleeping in his grave means Joseph still exists and will be resurrected when the Lord returns to raise the dead from their graves.

TenQ:

You didn't ask me any question I'm aware of. It's you I see not answering my question.

Your last question :


My response

1. His OBE!
2. If it is true, what explanation do you have for it?

How is "His OBE!" an answer to the question "Why must I take his experience seriously?"?

How is "If it is true, what explanation do you have for it?" an answer to the question "Are all experiences to be taken seriously?"?

Does this look like the normal flow of a conversation to you?

Zodiac61:
Nothing to see here. His delusions are not proof of the existence of God.

Did any one speak of God or the need to believe God is!?
It's not about God, it's about the reality beyond the physical

EXCELLENT.

TenQ:
Did any one speak of God or the need to believe God is!?
It's not about God, it's about the reality beyond the physical

Reality beyond what physical? The man had what amounts to a mental experience--- a delusion---, so where does your conclusion that it is beyond the physical come from?

Kobojunkie:
1. Technically, what Jesus Christ said is that the Kingdom of God belongs to those who are like children, not actually to children.
Jesus Christ compared those who are His followers to children pretty much every chance He got.
...
Jesus Christ was, however, definitive in stating that except a man is born-again — born of water and born of Spirit — He cannot step foot near the Kingdom of God. And of course, only those among the born-agains who are judged righteous at the end will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven - Matthew 25 vs 31 - 46

2. I never did since I made clear Daniel was also a righteous man and hence was not crushed by the curse either.

3. You do understand what figurative speech is, right? That Joseph was reduced to bones does not mean the same as Joseph no longer exists. Joseph sleeping in his grave means Joseph still exists and will be resurrected when the Lord returns to raise the dead from their graves.

Jesus used a REAL child as an Example, didn't he?

Mt 18:4
The greatest person in God’s kingdom is the one who makes himself humble like this child.


Do you believe that Daniel died and returned to dust or not?

On Joseph, you are confusing yourself:
Does the word Dust according to God mean literal earth or not?
When a person dies, his body decay and become indistinguishable from the earth.

Even righteous men of old acknowledged that they will return to dust

Job 10:9:
"Remember, I beseech you, that you have made me as the clay; and will you bring me into dust again?"

Ps 103:14:
"For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust."

Eccl 12:7:
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."

LordReed:


How is "His OBE!" an answer to the question "Why must I take his experience seriously?"?

How is "If it is true, what explanation do you have for it?" an answer to the question "Are all experiences to be taken seriously?"?

Does this look like the normal flow of a conversation to you?

Can you explain OBEs away especially where the subject report events or occurrences he cannot possibly be privy to?

Except you can conclusively say that his report is a fabrication, you have to take it seriously

Kobojunkie:
Reality beyond what physical? The man had what amounts to a mental experience--- a delusion---, so where does your conclusion that it is beyond the physical come from?

Are Angels real or not?

Is this not an example of realities beyond the physical?

TenQ:
■ Are Angels real or not?
■ Is this not an example of realities beyond the physical?

1. According to Jesus Christ, all those who are born-again and are of the Kingdom of God, as a result, become like the angels - Luke 20 vs 36 & Matthew 22 vs 29 - 30 & Mark 12 vs 25. So, yes, those who are born-again are like the angels.

2. What has angels being real or not to do with what this man basically dreamed of?