The Ifa corpus may be the largest volume of oral history in the world and any history in the corpus is totally valid because it is used for scientific theology. A story in odi meji talks about how a stranger was made the Oba of Benin by the Benin people. According to oral history, it should be Oranmiyan but Oranmiyan was not mentioned by name in the story. The appellation used for the stranger was Ajoji Godogbo which may mean handsome stranger. No mention of Ogiso as the hitherto ruler that died was referred to as Oba in the story. Oranmiyan was birthed by Oduduwa himself, so if the story was of Oranmiyan, then Benin should have had as many royal successions as the Ijesha, the Ife and the Oyo royal stools because those dynasties were also founded by sons of Oduduwa. Oranmiyan was actually also the first Alaafin of Oyo. However Oyo and Ijesa have had around 47 kings each while Ife have had 51 but Benin has had only 37. The disparity is too much for the dynasties to have started at the same time and it is much more likely that the present dynasty in Benin started centuries after Oyo, Ife and Ijesa had been established. However there is no reason to doubt that Oranmiyan went to Benin but traditions say he did not remain there. He was vexed there and named the place Ife Ibinu meaning Ife of vexation which later became Benin. The disparity in the number of royal succession between Benin and others was a wonder to me until I came across a story of Irete meji in the Ifa corpus talking about a certain Sasore who was made King in Benin, it then fell into place. Apparently the person in the odi meji story of the Ajoji Godogbo is the same Sasore of the Irete meji story who was a visiting Awo to Benin that went to the palace to commiserate with them on the death of the Oba and since the late ruler was referred to as Oba and not Ogiso, it would make sense that he was of the original dynasty kicked off by Owomika (Eweka) son of Oranmiyan and that the name of the founder of the current dynasty is therefore Sasore and not Oranmiyan or Eweka. However the research continues.

Have you heard of the ogisos? Go baff wear white come beg the oba of benin, you will still not smell fresh , oba never give you soap baff

godofuck231:
Have you heard of the ogisos? Go baff wear white come beg the oba of benin, you will still not smell fresh , oba never give you soap baff

Why comment if you have nothing sensible whatsoever to contribute?. Don't be daft.

This is the 40 th Oba of Benin. Not that I believe in your Dagbo history. I just have to correct you

I saw another account saying 37th but it only makes a little difference. There is still around seven generations between Oranmiyan and the founder of the current dynasty which still means there is need for more digging. Ijesa and Oyo share a similar number of successions. Britain too is less than fifty successions. What do you mean by Dagbo story?.

lawani:
I saw another account saying 37th but it only makes a little difference. There is still around seven generations between Oranmiyan and the founder of the current dynasty which still means there is need for more digging. Ijesa and Oyo share a similar number of successions. Britain too is less than fifty successions. What do you mean by Dagbo story?.

you have to check the longevity of each of these kings, like there are some Bini kings that lived for a year on the throne while there are some others that lived up to 45 years on the throne, some as much as 54 on the throne while another 46. So going by that analogy above. Any number around 40 to 50 is even as they will not be dying at the same time or not be taken permission from each other to die. You might as well drop the chronology of the oyo kings,let’s take a look at it.we have it on good note that our dynasty started in 1200

lawani:


Why comment if you have nothing sensible whatsoever to contribute?. Don't be daft.

bastard, whats your problem , if your father put his prike in the wrong hole must you come to nairaland and display your frustration of being born out of wedlock ? Go home , please and don't argue with elders

Oghodua:
you have to check the longevity of each of these kings, like there are some Bini kings that lived for a year on the throne while there are some others that lived up to 45 years on the throne, some as much as 54 on the throne while another 46. So going by that analogy above. Any number around 40 to 50 is even as they will not be dying at the same time or not be taken permission from each other to die. You might as well drop the chronology of the oyo kings,let’s take a look at it.we have it on good note that our dynasty started in 1200

You are very right. There are Oonis of Ife that were inaugurated in the morning and died in the evening but on the average everything evens out and it is unlikely that fifty kings will reign for 1500 years in one kingdom while they reign for 1200 years in another except if the system of succession warrants such as is the case in Ibadan where only retired old men can make it to the throne. In other places, it is not like that. The normal way is that the successor to the throne will be the age grade of the children of the king that died.

godofuck231:
bastard, whats your problem , if your father put his prike in the wrong hole must you come to nairaland and display your frustration of being born out of wedlock ? Go home , please and don't argue with elders

Why can't you shut your trap?. You have no basic home training on public discourse neither do you have the minimum required intelligence but you want to talk!.

lawani:


You are very right. There are Oonis of Ife that were inaugurated in the morning and died in the evening but on the average everything evens out and it is unlikely that fifty kings will reign for 1500 years in one kingdom while they reign for 1200 years in another except if the system of succession warrants such as is the case in Ibadan where only retired old men can make it to the throne. In other places, it is not like that. The normal way is that the successor to the throne will be the age grade of the children of the king that died.

nobody said that the Bini dynasty has lasted for 1200 years, what we are saying is that the Bini dynasty started out in 1200, but that is pretty fair enough for 40 kings. 1200 till date is 800 years. Besides the Bini monarchical system is primogeniture in nature. The eldest son usually succeeded the father in most cases in Benin. But that is not the case in your place whereby the next king might be ten years younger than the late king.

Oghodua:
nobody said that the Bini dynasty has lasted for 1200 years, what we are saying is that the Bini dynasty started out in 1200, but that is pretty fair enough for 40 kings. 1200 till date is 800 years. Besides the Bini monarchical system is primogeniture in nature. The eldest son usually succeeded the father in most cases in Benin. But that is not the case in your place whereby the next king might be ten years younger than the late king.

I just used an analogy, I did not say Benin dynasty started 1200 years ago. I said on the average, the total length of the reign of fifty kings would be similar in any two lands. It is the law of probability. In Benin, not all Kings were succeeded by their sons since anything can happen that was not foreplanned. Brothers have succeeded each other in the past because the king died too early and his first son was not even yet a toddler. Such happens, so at the end of the day,things even out. In ninety percent of cases or even ninety nine percent, a new King would be the age grade of the kids of the late King. You can do an independent assessment of royal successions across the world. Ibadan is an outlier because royal succession is by social seniority and not by birth.

lawani:


I just used an analogy, I did not say Benin dynasty started 1200 years ago. I said on the average, the total length of the reign of fifty kings would be similar in any two lands. It is the law of probability. In Benin, not all Kings were succeeded by their sons since anything can happen that was not foreplanned. Brothers have succeeded each other in the past because the king died too early and his first son was not even yet a toddler. Such happens, so at the end of the day,things even out. In ninety percent of cases or even ninety nine percent, a new King would be the age grade of the kids of the late King. You can do an independent assessment of royal successions across the world. Ibadan is an outlier because royal succession is by social seniority and not by birth.

the reign of fifty kings would be similar when the system in place is similar. For most parts of the Bini kings, their sons succeeded them, some their first, some their second but in 90 percent of the time their sons succeeded them, that can’t be compared to a system where it is rotational between families and the successors of the late king in some cases might be ten years younger than the late king

Oghodua:
the reign of fifty kings would be similar when the system in place is similar. For most parts of the Bini kings, their sons succeeded them, some their first, some their second but in 90 percent of the time their sons succeeded them, that can’t be compared to a system where it is rotational between families and the successors of the late king in some cases might be ten years younger than the late king

Can you point to an occasion in Yoruba land where an old man was made King?. Some modern kings in Yoruba land ruled for sixty years. The present Owa Obokun was installed in 1980. The late Sijuade was on the throne for almost fifty years. Oyekan of Lagos the same thing. Isn't Sikiru Adetona of Ijebu still there? Therefore it is the same thing all over except for Ibadan.

lawani:


Can you point to an occasion in Yoruba land where an old man was made King?. Some modern kings in Yoruba land ruled for sixty years. The present Owa Obokun was installed in 1980. The late Sijuade was on the throne for almost fifty years. Oyekan of Lagos the same thing. Isn't Sikiru Adetona of Ijebu still there? Therefore it is the same thing all over except for Ibadan.

if you can attest to what is tenable now, where you around for the last seven centuries to vouch for who they installed. But with the system of primogeniture you are very certain that the successor is on the average 25 years younger than the father. That is why I have been asking you for the list of Oyo kings. Besides there is a system in place in Oyo whereby the Ogboni council can present an empty calabash and such a king would commit suicide or be banished, such a culture is totally absent in Benin. The system at all is not the same

Oghodua:
if you can attest to what is tenable now, where you around for the last seven centuries to vouch for who they installed. But with the system of primogeniture you are very certain that the successor is on the average 25 years younger than the father. That is why I have been asking you for the list of Oyo kings. Besides there is a system in place in Oyo whereby the Ogboni council can present an empty calabash and such a king would commit suicide or be banished, such a culture is totally absent in Benin. The system at all is not the same

I understand your point but in Yoruba land, the next King is almost always much younger than the first son of the late King unlike in Benin where the next King must be the first son of the late King and that first son might be an old man depending on the age his Dad died. Sijuade was almost fifty years older than Ogunwusi that succeeded him. Therefore it is even benevolent to Benin's argument to assume everything evened out but I think it is safe to use that assumption.

Then the Oyo system at one point was exactly like the Benin but it was changed because of Aremos poisoning the Alaafin in order to ascend the throne. Then a law was passed to say the Aremo must die when the king dies so that Kings can live long. Alaafin Atiba was the one that stopped the practice of compelling the Aremo to commit suicide when the king dies

lawani:


I understand your point but in Yoruba land, the next King is almost always much younger than the first son of the late King unlike in Benin where the next King must be the first son of the late King and that first son might be an old man depending on the age his Dad died. Sijuade was almost fifty years older than Ogunwusi that succeeded him. Therefore it is even benevolent to Benin's argument to assume everything evened out but I think it is safe to use that assumption.

it is not always the case, even for the fact that you have a guess, you were not there to actually witness these kings and their ages at the time, that for Benin is certain, you cannot use the event of Now to accurately ascertain the past, in Igala a sister yoruboid tribe to Yoruba, the present Attah has retired from the civil service. Some first sons may not come until 35, 25 was an average. The meat of the Matter is that with primogeniture, you are very certain that the next king is one generation younger at the very least, but the issue of rotation among families, we were not there, we cannot ascertain.

Oghodua:
it is not always the case, even for the fact that you have a guess, you were not there to actually witness these kings and their ages at the time, that for Benin is certain, you cannot use the event of Now to accurately ascertain the past, in Igala a sister yoruboid tribe to Yoruba, the present Attah has retired from the civil service. Some first sons may not come until 35, 25 was an average. The meat of the Matter is that with primogeniture, you are very certain that the next king is one generation younger at the very least, but the issue of rotation among families, we were not there, we cannot ascertain.

You are right but it goes both ways because if a Benin king is blessed with longevity then his son will ascend the throne as an old man similar to the present Attah of Igala and the Attach title means father and it may be a reason they may like older people but in Yoruba land, there is a wide pool to choose from since it is always an open contest and atimes the position may remain vacant for a length of time or occupied by a regent while the search continues for a substantive monarch. There is never a period of vacancy in the constitution of Benin, Ibadan, Britain etc as succession is automatic and predecided. The next Olubadan, Oba of Benin etc are always known if they remain alive. That saves them time and is also a factor to consider in favor of your argument but the fact that a much younger person than the first son of the late King can and most often ascends the throne in Yoruba land is also a strong point for my argument. The present Oba of Benin also was already an old man when he ascended the throne. Compare him to Ooni Ogunwusi, Ooni Sijuade, Alaafin Adeyemi, Owa Aromolaran when they ascended their thrones and you will understand my point. They were all younger than Oba Ewuare II when he ascended the throne. That is the issue. Most first sons will be around fifty years when their father dies and if the father was blessed with longevity, they will be much older. 51 kings in Ife, 47 in Ijesa and maybe 47 in Oyo compared to 40 as you said in Benin means most probably that the Benin dynasty started much later according to my original post, then the stories in the Ifa corpus that I mentioned.

lawani:


You are right but it goes both ways because if a Benin king is blessed with longevity then his son will ascend the throne as an old man similar to the present Attah of Igala and the Attach title means father and it may be a reason they may like older people but in Yoruba land, there is a wide pool to choose from since it is always an open contest and atimes the position may remain vacant for a length of time or occupied by a regent while the search continues for a substantive monarch. There is never a period of vacancy in the constitution of Benin, Ibadan, Britain etc as succession is automatic and predecided. The next Olubadan, Oba of Benin etc are always known if they remain alive. That saves them time and is also a factor to consider in favor of your argument but the fact that a much younger person than the first son of the late King can and most often ascends the throne in Yoruba land is also a strong point for my argument. The present Oba of Benin also was already an old man when he ascended the throne. Compare him to Ooni Ogunwusi, Ooni Sijuade, Alaafin Adeyemi, Owa Aromolaran when they ascended their thrones and you will understand my point. They were all younger than Oba Ewuare II when he ascended the throne. That is the issue. Most first sons will be around fifty years when their father dies and if the father was blessed with longevity, they will be much older. 51 kings in Ife, 47 in Ijesa and maybe 47 in Oyo compared to 40 as you said in Benin means most probably that the Benin dynasty started much later according to my original post, then the stories in the Ifa corpus that I mentioned.

the year’s they started out according to already laid down tradition would help. Also the three thrones in Yoruba land operating a similar system as opposed to Bini operating something different might not be so fair to Bini and it might not be a true reflection of what you have in mind

Oghodua:
the year’s they started out according to already laid down tradition would help. Also the three thrones in Yoruba land operating a similar system as opposed to Bini operating something different might not be so fair to Bini and it might not be a true reflection of what you have in mind

Funnily as I mentioned earlier, Oyo was operating the same exact succession system as Benin before they abolished it.

lawani:


Funnily as I mentioned earlier, Oyo was operating the same exact succession system as Benin before they abolished it.

when exactly is also a factor

Oghodua:
when exactly is also a factor

We did not operate a Gregorian calendar, we have scarce written records and we see time as cyclical instead of linear. The past is the future but the fact that the Oyo practiced both succession methods and still remain at more or less the same number of successions as the Ijesa lends heavy credence to my argument.

lawani:


We did not operate a Gregorian calendar, we have scarce written records and we see time as cyclical instead of linear. The past is the future but the fact that the Oyo practiced both succession methods and still remain at more or less the same number of successions as the Ijesa lends heavy credence to my argument.

you seem to be speaking in tongues my brother, under which reign of which king did it stop, you have oral traditions, you can post the list of oyo kings, let me post that of Bini kings(i have it). Let’s compare the years in the reign of these kings, so you can see how solid my argument is.

Oghodua:
you seem to be speaking in tongues my brother, under which reign of which king did it stop, you have oral traditions, you can post the list of oyo kings, let me post that of Bini kings(i have it). Let’s compare the years in the reign of these kings, so you can see how solid my argument is.

You have to go and do that work and research for yourself and publish your positions.

lawani:


You have to go and do that work and research for yourself and publish your positions.

it is not an argument, it is not a position my brother, it is reality and it is generally accepted by scholars that Bini’s monarchy started out in 1200 and we have about 40 kings.

What an interesting intellectual negotiation between two fellas

lawani:
The Ifa corpus may be the largest volume of oral history in the world and any history in the corpus is totally valid because it is used for scientific theology. A story in odi meji talks about how a stranger was made the Oba of Benin by the Benin people. According to oral history, it should be Oranmiyan but Oranmiyan was not mentioned by name in the story. The appellation used for the stranger was Ajoji Godogbo which may mean handsome stranger. No mention of Ogiso as the hitherto ruler that died was referred to as Oba in the story. Oranmiyan was birthed by Oduduwa himself, so if the story was of Oranmiyan, then Benin should have had as many royal successions as the Ijesha, the Ife and the Oyo royal stools because those dynasties were also founded by sons of Oduduwa. Oranmiyan was actually also the first Alaafin of Oyo. However Oyo and Ijesa have had around 47 kings each while Ife have had 51 but Benin has had only 37. The disparity is too much for the dynasties to have started at the same time and it is much more likely that the present dynasty in Benin started centuries after Oyo, Ife and Ijesa had been established. However there is no reason to doubt that Oranmiyan went to Benin but traditions say he did not remain there. He was vexed there and named the place Ife Ibinu meaning Ife of vexation which later became Benin. The disparity in the number of royal succession between Benin and others was a wonder to me until I came across a story of Irete meji in the Ifa corpus talking about a certain Sasore who was made King in Benin, it then fell into place. Apparently the person in the odi meji story of the Ajoji Godogbo is the same Sasore of the Irete meji story who was a visiting Awo to Benin that went to the palace to commiserate with them on the death of the Oba and since the late ruler was referred to as Oba and not Ogiso, it would make sense that he was of the original dynasty kicked off by Owomika (Eweka) son of Oranmiyan and that the name of the founder of the current dynasty is therefore Sasore and not Oranmiyan or Eweka. However the research continues.

Where did you dig up this rubbish from?

davidnazee:


Where did you dig up this rubbish from?

I stopped reading when I saw "largest corpus of oral history". That indicated clearly that this was going to be a long pitch of batman type of fairytale.

lawani:
The Ifa corpus may be the largest volume of oral history in the world and any history in the corpus is totally valid because it is used for scientific theology.

What a bunch of nonesense.
"Oral history" is not history at all, it is just a bunch of fairytales most of which were created recently or have kept changing over time.
Also "scientific theology", I see you guys keep creating new concepts to accompany your fairytales. As usual you yoruba guys confuse religion, fairytales and history.

It is not necessary to read your write-up any further. You are not having a talk based on logic and facts.

Stoplying:

I stopped reading when I saw "largest corpus of oral history". That indicated clearly that this was going to be a long pitch of batman type of fairytale.

Yoruba leading the world in oral history and scientific theology, igbos lead the world to industrialization.. nothing we no dey hear from these fanatics..

Lawani and Oghodua, thank you for your decent discussion.

TrossardT:
What an interesting intellectual negotiation between two fellas

lawani:


Why can't you shut your trap?. You have no basic home training on public discourse neither do you have the minimum required intelligence but you want to talk!.

no wonder your father died out of poverty

What exactly does "Scientific theology" mean? Isn't that term even paradoxical?