emöfine:

Please see my modified version. I've revised my statement.

better.

m_nwankwo:

Hi Emofine. Thanks for your kind words and your reasoned reply. The laws of God are indelibly written in all creations of God. What men call Nature is just a small part of Gods creations. The sacred scriptures of religions in its pure form are simply a physical condensation of the language of God that vibrates in creations. Thus a prophet or servant of God due to an ability granted to him or her by God gives physical form to this living language of God by cloaking them into earthly words and sentences. A genuine seeker will absorb the words and sentences in such a way that the words and the sentences opens the door to the living laws of God. In other words, the genuine seeker should be able to experience the same living language of God which the prophet or servant of God have condensed into words and sentences. The words and the sentences are only forms or shells but a genuine seeker must uncover or unclothe the shells or the coverings so that he will experience the seed (the living language of God). This living language of God cannot be accurately depicted in human words and language. It is not possible to reproduce in human language that which is Living and "Infinite".

Thus it is possible to know of GOD without coming into physical contact with any of the sacred books. Buried deep and as an integral part of our spirit is a spiritual receiver and transmitter which is called intuition. This intuition can easily recognize the living language of God. Unfortunately, like a diamond buried in mud, the purity of spiritual intuition is crowded or enveloped by the propensities of our material bodies. It is for this reason that many cannot hear the voice of the spirit. God in his infinite Love sends his messengers to awaken man from the slumber, that is, to help humankind tear away the dross that covers the intuition. Once the intuition is free, it cannot but recognize God and his Will for the ultimate recognition of God is hardwired in the spirit. Because each individual is different, what will awaken them varies. Some may find the trigger in very painful experiences, others in the Bible, Koran, Vedic scriptures, etc while some others may find the opening of the voice of their spirit on the mountain top, gazing in a Night sky or even by looking at the complexity of biological systems. Whatever is the trigger, one thin is certain, once the gate of the spirit opens to perceive the will of God, that spirit can only live and breathe LOVE. LOVE, GENUINE LOVE is the fundamental characteristic of an awakened spirit. Such an awakened spirit only lives and breathes love for he is now linked for all times with GOD who is the source and origin of LOVE.

Gems of Truth in all sacred books do not contradict each other for the Truth cannot contradict itself. A genuine seeker will be able to pick any sacred book and be able to absorb the truths that is in them, while discarding the untruths. Each human being who has humility and is seeking for God will find God irrespective of what his earthly religion is. Like I said above when they have found the living language of God, they will only live one supreme law of God, that is to love God and to love all creations of God. Stay blessed.

You have a truly beautiful way of weaving words together. But the above is the sweeping apostasy that the bible strongly warned us about. It would be quite tedious pointing out the serious flaws in this post.

tbaba1234:

You have raised valid questions on this thread and Nwankwo has come up with really beautiful rhetorics.

This is my position:

It is an Islamic viewpoint that every nation was sent a Messenger for their guidance. The important matter was the concept of Tawheed i.e., in oneness of Allah. The secondary matter was the law which kept changing from tribe to tribe and nation to nation. Allah, the most high, alone knows what is good for His creation. As it is mentioned in the Qur'ân:

which is quite odd considering the only messengers the quran can remember were practically all jews. who were the messengers to Syria or Africa for example?

davidylan:

which is quite odd considering the only messengers the quran can remember were practically all jews. who were the messengers to Syria or Africa for example?

Were Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Adam, Saleh, Hud, Shaiub, Ismail, Lot Jews?

Deal with  the question, i just offered the muslim opinion,  Offer your opinion,  What is with this your obsession with muslims?

davidylan:


You have a truly beautiful way of weaving words together. But the above is the sweeping apostasy that the bible strongly warned us about. It would be quite tedious pointing out the serious flaws in this post.

Hi Davidylan. How bodi? Thanks for your comments. I offered my perception on the issues in discuss. If you find flaws in what I said, you are encouraged to point them out. In that way readers and discussants will have broader view of the issues in discuss. Stay blessed.

tbaba1234:

Were Noah, Enoch, Abraham, Adam, Saleh, Hud, Shaiub, Ismail, Lot Jews?

Deal with  the question, i just offered the muslim opinion,  Offer your opinion,  What is with this your obsession with muslims?

precisely because the quran is a silly book filled with unserious conjectures and plagiarized material. Noah and Enoch were indeed prophets but NOT islamic prophets at all. Its quite simply odd that the ONLY concrete words of these "prophets of allah" are recorded IN THE BIBLE (which is why muslim scholars HAVE to read the bible because without it the above are simply meaningless names).
What of Abraham and Lot? Even Ishmael's lineage and history is IN THE BIBLE and completely absent from the quran.

But for the bible would you even know their lineages? why are such important facts NOT recorded in allah's so-called perfect book?

I already offered my opinion, but i wont let nonsensical islamic propaganda and lies stand without challenging them.

m_nwankwo:

Hi Davidylan. How bodi? Thanks for your comments. I offered my perception on the issues in discuss. If you find flaws in what I said, you are encouraged to point them out. In that way readers and discussants will have broader view of the issues in discuss. Stay blessed.

thank you and remain blessed as well.

m_nwankwo:

The sacred books of religions contain some truth. Those grains of Truth are the the teachings of the the prophets of God and in (case of the bible, the son of God) that have not been distorted by the human mind. Budhha, Krishina, LaoTse, Mohammed, Moses, and many others besides are messengers of God sent to different cultures and traditions.

considering the serious differences in the words of the above, exactly what "god" do you claim sent them?

davidylan:


You have a truly beautiful way of weaving words together. But the above is[b] the sweeping apostasy that the bible strongly warned us about.[/b] It would be quite tedious pointing out the serious flaws in this post.

Hi Davidylan.  I would not like to put you through too much tedium but could you please just tell me which is the chapter and verse of the bible that warns us against Nwankwo's post.

davidylan:

thank you and remain blessed as well.

considering the serious differences in the words of the above, exactly what "god" do you claim sent them?

Hi Davidylan. God, the creator of all the worlds whose son is Jesus Christ sent all the aforementioned prophets to different peoples and cultures. My perception is that there is no essential difference in their teachings provided one is able to spiritually look at the teachings of these servants of God. Stay blessed.

m_nwankwo:

Hi Davidylan. God, the creator of all the worlds whose son is Jesus Christ sent all the aforementioned prophets to different peoples and cultures. My perception is that there is no essential difference in their teachings provided one is able to spiritually look at the teachings of these servants of God. Stay blessed.

Wrong !!

God sent the prophets ( ALL Jews ) first to :

1. The wayward sheep of Israel
2. To specifically warn other nations of their gross wickedness

As we speak Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way to salvation. Any other way is FALSE and will surely lead to destruction.

God is not in the business of confusion !!!!

m_nwankwo:

Hi Davidylan. God, the creator of all the worlds whose son is Jesus Christ sent all the aforementioned prophets to different peoples and cultures. My perception is that there is no essential difference in their teachings provided one is able to spiritually look at the teachings of these servants of God. Stay blessed.

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I'm sorry, but one God cannot be so contradictory. The God of the bible has been very categorical on who He is and how we can approach Him. It is ONLY through christ Jesus.

Pastor AIO:

Hi Davidylan.  I would not like to put you through too much tedium but could you please just tell me which is the chapter and verse of the bible that warns us against Nwankwo's post.  

See above for one such example.

davidylan:

precisely because the quran is a silly book filled with unserious conjectures and plagiarized material. Noah and Enoch were indeed prophets but NOT islamic prophets at all. Its quite simply odd that the ONLY concrete words of these "prophets of allah" are recorded IN THE BIBLE (which is why muslim scholars HAVE to read the bible because without it the above are simply meaningless names).
What of Abraham and Lot? Even Ishmael's lineage and history is IN THE BIBLE and completely absent from the quran.

But for the bible would you even know their lineages? why are such important facts NOT recorded in allah's so-called perfect book?

I already offered my opinion, but i wont let nonsensical islamic propaganda and lies stand without challenging them.

You have presented no arguments here. Just insults and fallacies.

You are too blinded by hate to make informed statements.

tbaba1234:

You have presented no arguments here.  Just insults and fallacies.

You are too blinded by hate to make informed statements.

Because that is precisely what you want to see. You are far too buried in the sands of denial.

I asked a very simple question - can you show me concrete evidence of the prophecies and messages of Lot, Enoch and Noah IN THE QURAN?

Just spewing out biblical names and tagging them as allah's prophets is a fraud that has gone unchallenged for hundreds of yrs. this isnt a matter of hate but one of principle.

If you think my response was all "fallacies" then POINT THEM OUT WITH CONCRETE PROOF.

davidylan:

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I'm sorry, but one God cannot be so contradictory. The God of the bible has been very categorical on who He is and how we can approach Him. It is ONLY through christ Jesus.

See above for one such example.

But I see nothing in what Nwankwo wrote that contradicts John 14:6.  

I wonder, how do you understand that passage?  When it says Jesus is the 'Way', what do you understand?  Do you understand that Jesus is a footpath that leads to the Father?  What kind of a footpath?  Is it dusty?  or is it tarred?  Is it straight or it is bendy?

Or perhaps you don't understand it literally and you see it as a metaphor.  So we don't literally have to walk over Jesus in order to get to the Father.  In that case what is the metaphor representing?  What are we to understand when we hear that this Path to the Father called Jesus is also what we " live, and move, and have our being" in.  

28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Acts 17:28

@Frosbel.  'as certain also of your own poets have said'.  Why is Paul quoting foreign poets?  Are they to be considered as authorities in divine matters.  Who sent them or inspired them to write the things that they've written?

and while you are answering the above questions could you also consider the issue of where the prophet Job came from?

In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job.

Job 1:1

In the land of Uz - This country was situated in Idumea, or the land of Edom, in Arabia Petraea, of which it comprised a very large district. See the preface.

http://bible.cc/job/1-1.htm

I believe that you'll find that not only was Job not a Jewish prophet but, quite pertinent to your stance against Arab prophets, Job was an ARAB PROPHET.  Of course the Moslems didn't know this otherwise they would have trumpeted it from morning to night till we were all sick and tired.  Of course the only way to know this is if you read hte bible thoroughly enough.  Since the only info on Job is from the bible cos the Koranists learnt of him from the bible there is no mention of this in the koran, though if they did know about it surely they would have found a way to make a big deal out of it.

p.s  Lot (correction: Oops, I meant to say Jonah) came from a certain town and was sent as a prophet to go and talk to another people, the people of Nineveh.  Conclusion, the yarn that prophets are only sent to their own people that Moslems like to bandy about is obviously false.

Pastor AIO:

But I see nothing in what Nwankwo wrote that contradicts John 14:6.  

I wonder, how do you understand that passage?  When it says Jesus is the 'Way', what do you understand?  Do you understand that Jesus is a footpath that leads to the Father?  What kind of a footpath?  Is it dusty?  or is it tarred?  Is it straight or it is bendy?

Or perhaps you don't understand it literally and you see it as a metaphor.  So we don't literally have to walk over Jesus in order to get to the Father.  In that case what is the metaphor representing?  What are we to understand when we hear that this Path to the Father called Jesus is also what we " live, and move, and have our being" in.  
Acts 17:28

This must be a complete joke. Yeah sure, Jesus is the dusty road we all thread on the way to church every sunday. Sometimes its best not to dignify some posts with a response.

Pastor AIO:

I believe that you'll find that not only was Job not a Jewish prophet but, quite pertinent to your stance against Arab prophets, Job was an ARAB PROPHET.  Of course the Moslems didn't know this otherwise they would have trumpeted it from morning to night till we were all sick and tired.  Of course the only way to know this is if you read hte bible thoroughly enough.  Since the only info on Job is from the bible cos the Koranists learnt of him from the bible there is no mention of this in the koran, though if they did know about it surely they would have found a way to make a big deal out of it.

Please read Job 1 again. When was Job ever called a "prophet" in the bible. Deuteronomy explains what the role of a prophet is . . . the big problem here is that just about every ok person is called a "prophet" by the quran. the bible on the other hand had strict rules on how a prophet is defined.

An example of this nonsense is the muslim claim that David was a prophet. That is laughably false.

Pastor AIO:

p.s Lot came from a certain town and was sent as a prophet to go and talk to another people, the people of Nineveh. Conclusion, the yarn that prophets are only sent to their own people that Moslems like to bandy about is obviously false.

And when was Lot ever a biblical prophet?

tbaba1234 is trying to use what we call Stealth Jihad to confuse the masses with what appears initially as facts.

However if you are a good student of the bible and an ardent researcher of history, all the lies he spews all over this article and the others will be easy to decipher and refute.

As for Pastor AIO, I can only say he aint gotta clue.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way , the ONLY Truth and the LIFE.

"All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them."

The [b]'thieves and robbers' [/b]part also in futuristic terms refers to Muhammad and his entourage of false prophets.

frosbel:

tbaba1234  is trying to use what we call Stealth Jihad to confuse the masses  with what appears initially as facts.

However if you are a good student of the bible and an ardent researcher of history, all the lies he spews all over this article and the others will be easy to decipher and refute.

i thought i was the only one who noticed. He posts with the false veneer of supposed moderation, intelligence and factual arguments. However he is no different from LagosShia . . . they both overwhelm you with a plethora of long boring tomes (mostly islamic lies) that no one bothers to read. Since most of them go unchallenged, everyone simply accepts them as correct.

frosbel:


Wrong !!

God sent the prophets ( ALL Jews ) first to :

1. The wayward sheep of Israel
2. To specifically warn other nations of their gross wickedness

As we speak Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way to salvation. Any other way is FALSE and will surely lead to destruction.

God is not in the business of confusion !!!!

Hi Frosbel. Thanks for your comments. Jesus is indeed "The way, the truth and life". Any body in what ever religion who practices genuine love is in tandem with the teaching of Jesus and is spiritually linked with Jesus even when he is unconscious of it. As he progresses in his spiritual journey, he will one day either here on this earth or after he has departed this earth recognize Jesus who will lead him to the Father. Spiritual recognition of Jesus is not the same thing as a religious or intellectual understanding. A spiritual recognition is stored in the spirit and is truly alive in that spirit. A religious or intellectual understanding is only stored in the brain cells and perish at earthly death.  Look at the fruits of anybody who claims that he has recognized Jesus Christ as the Savior and you may see who truly is of Jesus and those who are not. A high school student with straight A grades have the potential of being a good scientist  and will one day have a PhD if he continues on the path of academic excellence. A brother of a Professor who never completed High School but because he lives with a Professor  do hear some of the scientific jargon and may imagine himself already a Professor and smile at the exuberance of the gifted high school graduate.15 to 20 years later, the High School graduate have fulfilled his potential and is now a Professor while the brother of a Professor still have no High School certificate, much less being a Professor. Our spiritual journey is a marathon and not a 9 hours flight from Frankfurt to Newyork where you can buy a ticket at the last moment. Christ is the Truth and the pure teachings of all religions are like a flight of steps that leads to the ultimate Truth. He who thinks that these flight of steps are not in existence or that the steps are irrelevant or even wrong will be convinced by his own experiences. Stay blessed.

davidylan:

i thought i was the only one who noticed. He posts with the false veneer of supposed moderation, intelligence and factual arguments. However he is no different from LagosShia . . . they both overwhelm you with a plethora of long boring tomes (mostly islamic lies) that no one bothers to read. Since most of them go unchallenged, everyone simply accepts them as correct.

frosbel:

tbaba1234  is trying to use what we call Stealth Jihad to confuse the masses   with what appears initially as facts.

However if you are a good student of the bible and an ardent researcher of history, all the lies he spews all over this article and the others will be easy to decipher and refute.

As for Pastor AIO, I can only say he aint gotta clue.

Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way , the ONLY Truth and the LIFE.

"All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them."

The [b]'thieves and robbers' [/b]part also in futuristic terms refers to Muhammad and his entourage of false prophets.

I welcome challenges. I can always learn from you because i am flexible to learning.

So do 'decipher and refute', Just  provide evidences as you go along.

@Frosbel, i don't know what stealth Jihad is, but it is good to know you have a sense of humour.

I have an indepth understanding of christian beliefs  and history so if you are that good bible student, we can open a thread to discuss any topic of your choosing in a nice respectful manner in line with islamic and christian values.

@Davidylan, The same goes for you. For you, i will make my posts short and informative. You can call it my treat.

tbaba1234:

I welcome challenges. I can always learn from you because i am flexible to learning.

So do 'decipher and refute', Just  provide evidences as you go along.

@Frosbel, i don't know what stealth Jihad is, but it is good to know you have a sense of humour.

I have an indepth understanding of christian beliefs  and history so if you are that good bible student, we can open a thread to discuss any topic of your choosing in a nice respectful manner in line with islamic and christian values.

@Davidylan, The same goes for you. For you, i will make my posts short and informative. You can call it my treat.

For a long time i always wondered why muslims were so versed in the bible . . . then i realised . . . without it most of the quran is meaningless gibberish. For example - why is Lot a "prophet" and who is he IN THE CONTEXT OF THE QURAN ONLY?

davidylan:

For a long time i always wondered why muslims were so versed in the bible . . . then i realised . . . without it most of the quran is meaningless gibberish. For example - why is Lot a "prophet" and who is he IN THE CONTEXT OF THE QURAN ONLY?

Well, I am a student of knowledge and i have interests in a host of fields including history, geography, engineering , economics, politics. I grew up in a largely christian setting so I even read the bible before reading the Quran. But the Quran stole my heart because it has all the answers.

The Quran says of Lot:

The people of Lut rejected the messengers. Behold, their brother Lut said to them: "Will ye not fear [Allah] "I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. "So fear Allah and obey me. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds."Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing [all limits]!"

They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!" He said: "I do detest your doings.""O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!"So We delivered him and his family,- all Except an old woman who lingered behind.

He was given a message to deliver to the people by God, that makes him a prophet.

Ibn kathir has a good book on the stories of the prophets based on Muslim tradition and narrations, you might want to check that out. Good read.

tbaba1234:

Well, I am a student of knowledge and i have interests in a host of fields including history, geography, engineering , economics, politics. I grew up in a largely christian setting so I even read the bible before reading the Quran. But the Quran stole my heart because it has all the answers.

I've read this fraudulent excuse way too many times. Its funny mohammad too started out reading the bible . . .

tbaba1234:

The Quran says  of Lot:

The people of Lut rejected the messengers. Behold, their brother Lut said to them: "Will ye not fear [Allah] "I am to you a messenger worthy of all trust. "So fear Allah and obey me. "No reward do I ask of you for it: my reward is only from the lord of the Worlds."Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing [all limits]!"

They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!" He said: "I do detest your doings.""O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!"So We delivered him and his family,- all Except an old woman who lingered behind.

He was  given a message to deliver to the people by God, that makes him a prophet.

Who was Lot? Lineage? Date of birth?
What was the antecedent to this story? Or is it similar to much of the quran that simply appears completely out of context?
To whom was he sent and why?
Who was the old woman who lingered?

I already know where this story was evidently copied from (Genesis 19).

tbaba1234:

Ibn kathir has a good book on the stories of the prophets based on Muslim tradition and narrations, you might want to check that out. Good read.

and just exactly where did Ibn Kathir get this information that is absent from the quran?

davidylan:

Who was Lot? Lineage? Date of birth?
What was the antecedent to this story? Or is it similar to much of the quran that simply appears completely out of context?
To whom was he sent and why?
Who was the old woman who lingered?

and just exactly where did Ibn Kathir get this information that is absent from the quran?

The Quran is not a history book, every story in it is supposed to pass on a message. Hardly any word is wasted. The knowledge of Lot lineage does not help me or anyone get guided.

However, details on the story of Lut can be obtained from muslim traditions and narrations.

Ibn kathir says of Lut:

Prophet Abraham (PBUH) left Egypt accompanied by his nephew Lut (PBUH), who then went to the city of Sodom (Sadum), which was on the western shore of the Dead Sea. This city was filled with evil. Its residents waylaid, robbed and killed travelers. Another common evil among them was that men had sex with men instead of with women. This unnatural act later became known as sodomy (after the city of Sodom). It was practiced openly and unashamedly.

According to Islamic tradition, Lut lived in Ur and was a nephew of Ibrahim (Abraham). He migrated with Abraham to Canaan in Palestine. He was commissioned as a prophet to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.[History of Islam by Professor Masudul Hasan].
His story is used as a reference by Muslims to demonstrate Islam's strong disapproval of homosexuality. He was commanded by God to go to the land of Sodom and Gomorrah to preach to his people on monotheism and to stop them from their lustful and violent acts. Lot's messages were ignored by the inhabitants, thus, Sodom and Gomorrah were subsequently destroyed.

Some major differences between the story of Lot in the Qur'an and the story of Lot in the Bible is that the Hebrew version of Lot's wife leaves Sodom with her husband, looks back, and is turned into a pillar of salt. In the Qur'an, Lot's wife stays behind in the city and is destroyed.

The Old woman who lingered was his wife.

@Sweetnecta

This is why Quran is a recitation and does not have to be in a book form before it is "LOCKED INSIDE YOUR ESSENCE".

If a person who does not know the arabic hears a Quranic tone of Arabic speech, and then hears Quran recitation in the tone of the speech, he will know the difference from his heart.

His heart will react to the Quran, while his heart will not reach to the Arabic speech even though it is in the exact same tone as the Quran.

later, i will look for a video of a dialogue of a Quranic reciter with a christian propagandist in Australia, where the recitation of the Quran impacted the heart of the christian, while the non Quranic arabic statement, though sounding the same did not.

Is the recitation accompanied with music?

The recitation is the aural image of the Quaran, the breath. . .right? It is still the Quaran but introduced via another medium.

I don't doubt your story or claim at all but even lies can be captivating so if it does stir my heart how does that automatically render the recitals as "truthful"?

Many of us seeking the truth/answers tread with trepidation because we do not want to be beguiled.

Note to self: Work on Emofine, because Nwankwo will easily capture her heart because everything is visual to the artist. And she is one. She can help it when the painter of half truth and others are talking to her.

the tarot card people will continue to talk until they get you to hang on a truth that they stumbled on in your life. From then onward, you will absorb all the garbage that follows, whereas you have been saying no to everything before this incidental truth.

Note to self: Sweetnecta is concluding prematurely

Yes I will admit I find m_nwankwo's thoughts and reasoning fascinating and attractive but as an individual on a personal journey I don't believe there is partnership in such a spiritual walk. Obviously one may come across like minded individuals or others can offer guidance but this isn't a three-legged race. If I follow someone and that person falls, subsequently I will fall.

m_nwankwo himself has encouraged me not to adopt his pattern (again a type of thinking that enchants me as opposed to being pressured or forced) - notwithstanding I appreciate the concern and compassion of genuine believers who only seek to guide me on a path they believe to be true.

As beautiful as his delivery was I'm still sceptical as to whether all m_nwankwo had said is indeed accurate. His spirituality is individual and subjective - it quite possibly might not even be compatible with my being. so I cannot suddenly conform to his way of thinking without much personal experience no matter how attractive it sounds. I liked his words but more than that I liked his individuality, his decision to embark on such a unique trajectory and the fact he didn't feel complaisant in his religious upbringing but instead sought to seek out the truth for himself. All these things I can identify with.

And lastly on the contrary, an artist is not solely inclined to the visual. Not at all

tbaba1234:

The Quran is not a history book, every story in it is supposed to pass on a message. Hardly any word is wasted. The knowledge of Lot lineage does not help me or anyone get guided.

Funny how the quran is never a history book when you need muslims to validate the many plagiarized portions of it.

tbaba1234:

Ibn kathir says of Lut:

Prophet Abraham (PBUH) left Egypt accompanied by his nephew Lut (PBUH), who then went to the city of Sodom (Sadum), which was on the western shore of the Dead Sea. This city was filled with evil. Its residents waylaid, robbed and killed travelers. Another common evil among them was that men Were Intimate with men instead of with women. This unnatural act later became known as sodomy (after the city of Sodom). It was practiced openly and unashamedly.

According to Islamic tradition, Lut lived in your and was a nephew of Ibrahim (Abraham). He migrated with Abraham to Canaan in Palestine. He was commissioned as a prophet to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.[History of Islam by Professor Masudul Hasan].
His story is used as a reference by Muslims to demonstrate Islam's strong disapproval of homosexuality. He was commanded by God to go to the land of Sodom and Gomorrah to preach to his people on monotheism and to stop them from their lustful and violent acts. Lot's messages were ignored by the inhabitants, thus, Sodom and Gomorrah were subsequently destroyed.

this clearly is NOT muslim tradition but a disgraceful copying of the story in Genesis 18-19. This so-called "tradition" appears no where else in traditional arab historical records and is simply a regurgitation of the biblical story almost verbatim. A good evidence for this is the bare-faced fact that it contains NO EXTRA INFORMATION beyond that written in Genesis. Odd.

Even the reference to Prof Masudul's work makes no sense . . . that book was written in 2002. Where is the "islamic tradition" it claims to be referencing? If indeed Lot was part of islamic tradition, why dont we find a single record for this Lot pre-mohammad among the arabs? Ibn Kathir writes his "muslim tradition" ONLY about 700 yrs AFTER mohammad dies? Strange . . .

tbaba1234:

Some major differences between the story of Lot in the Qur'an and the story of Lot in the Bible is that the Hebrew version of Lot's wife leaves Sodom with her husband, looks back, and is turned into a pillar of salt. In the Qur'an, Lot's wife stays behind in the city and is destroyed.

and this is your idea of a "major difference"?

tbaba1234:

The Old woman who lingered was his wife.

Of course from the biblical story i know it was his wife. Without the bible you would have no idea.

emöfine:

@Sweetnecta
Is the recitation accompanied with music?

The recitation is the aural image of the Quaran, the breath. . .right? It is still the Quaran but introduced via another medium.

I don't doubt your story or claim at all but even lies can be captivating so if it does stir my heart how does that automatically render the recitals as "truthful"?

Many of us seeking the truth/answers tread with trepidation because we do not want to be beguiled.

Actually, the recitation is the Quran. It is meant to be recited. The book is called a mushaf (“collection of pages.” ).

^^ Ok. Noted. Thanks.

@m_nwankwo

It appears that you have consolidated all the religious bodies, perhaps even mixed and matched or maybe you don't pertain to the borders. Do you believe spirituality should be without perimeters?

You're analogy depicting the grains of rice as seeds of truth reminds me of a conversation I had with my Christian father.
I had an interesting conversation with him regarding the accuracy of his beliefs however I was taught an important lesson in our dialogue.
Just as I have done here, I questioned the authenticity of the Book he adheres to and used an analogy to illustrate my point.
I likened the "truth" locked in the Book to pure water and slight inaccuracies to grains of sand.
I asked him if he would be willing to drink the cup of water if it had grains of sands laying inside its contents. I asked if he would even consider the water palatable.

And to my amazement he replied me and said, when a man is thirsty he would drink anything just to quench that thirst. Of course he has a point. After all despite the alterations in the liquid, it still remains the only substance that can cure a thirst despite how sweet or bitter it may be.

There is no essential difference between the grain of rice that came through the mouth of any of the prophets of God.

really?

Truth is constant and immutable and thus it is not subject to the earthly fluctuations like geographical location, sex, religious inclination, social status, race, etc.

. . .even if key concepts differ in various religions?

I know that the entire creation is a reflection or an image of the will of God. The material physically visible creation with all its billions of galaxies and sun systems is the last copy and only faintly reflects the original copy (Primordial spiritual creation). Thus material creation is the least approximation to real Life. Primordial Spiritual Creation is the closest reflection of Real Life. Life and Power only resides in God and everything that is not God (Creations and much more) is a reflection or an image of the Life that is in God.  Stay blessed.

What is real life?

davidylan:

Funny how the quran is never a history book when you need muslims to validate the many plagiarized portions of it.

this clearly is NOT muslim tradition but a disgraceful copying of the story in Genesis 18-19. This so-called "tradition" appears no where else in traditional arab historical records and is simply a regurgitation of the biblical story almost verbatim. A good evidence for this is the bare-faced fact that it contains NO EXTRA INFORMATION beyond that written in Genesis. Odd.

Even the reference to Prof Masudul's work makes no sense . . . that book was written in 2002. Where is the "islamic tradition" it claims to be referencing? If indeed Lot was part of islamic tradition, why dont we find a single record for this Lot pre-mohammad among the arabs?

and this is your idea of a "major difference"?

Of course from the biblical story i know it was his wife. Without the bible you would have no idea.

No one has provided evidence of plagiarism in the Quran,

Was ibn kathir's book also written in 2002?

At the time of Lot’s invocation to God, the messengers (angels) were with Prophet Abraham so they informed him of their mission to Lot and his people.  They said,

“And when Our messengers [i.e., angels] came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, “Indeed, we will destroy the people of that [i.e., Lot’s] city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers.” (Quran 29:31)

Abraham was afraid, his nephew Lot was in the town of Sodom and it was about to be destroyed.  He said to the angels “but Lot is there!”  They replied,

“We know better who is there, we will verily save him (Lot) and his family, except his wife, she will be of those who remain behind (i.e. she will be destroyed).” (Quran 29: 32)

The relation between Lot and Abraham was implied in the Quran  and his wife was also mentioned.

Hi again Emofine. Thanks for comments. I briefly address you comments as follows:

@m_nwankwo

It appears that you have consolidated all the religious bodies, perhaps even mixed and matched or maybe you don't pertain to the borders. Do you believe spirituality should be without perimeters?

It may appear so on the surface but the reality is that I do not need books or religion to communicate with God.  A christain who sows yam on a fertile soil will reap yam and if an atheist, a Buddhist or a moslem sow yam, they too will reap yam. The laws of God lies in the genetic program that compels yam to yield yam. The ceremonies which a christian, an atheist , a Buddhist or a moslem conducts before sowing the yam has no bearing to the fact that yam gives yam. As it is in this crude analogy so it is in all in both the small and mighty manifestations of the laws of God.

Spirituality should all be about recognizing the will of God and living accordingly. He who loves God with all his soul and love his neighbor as himself have found the way to spiritual salvation. On his journey in this path of love, he will gain all the recognition and knowledge that he needs. God did not create any religion and in the kingdom of God, there is no religion. Obedience to the laws or will of God gives the spirit the buoyancy and purity that will permit it to be admitted into the spiritual kingdom of God.

You're analogy depicting the grains of rice as seeds of truth reminds me of a conversation I had with my Christian father.
I had an interesting conversation with him regarding the accuracy of his beliefs however I was taught an important lesson in our dialogue.
Just as I have done here, I questioned the authenticity of the Book he adheres to and used an analogy to illustrate my point.
I likened the "truth" locked in the Book to pure water and slight inaccuracies to grains of sand.
I asked him if he would be willing to drink the cup of water if it had grains of sands laying inside its contents. I asked if he would even consider the water palatable.

And to my amazement he replied me and said, when a man is thirsty he would drink anything just to quench that thirst. Of course he has a point. After all despite the alterations in the liquid, it still remains the only substance that can cure a thirst despite how sweet or bitter it may be.

Unlike your Father, I will not drink water even if a minute grain of sand is in it. I will remove that minute grain and if it is impossible to remove, I will pray to God to provide me a pure cup of water without any grain of sand. I will only drink a cup of water mixed with sand if I didnot know that it contains sand.

even if key concepts differ in various religions?

I do not share the views that key concepts of the pure teachings of prophets of God differ. Key concepts in the religions that were developed after them do differ but I have previously made it clear that a record of the life of the teachings of these prophets is a bag of sand containing a cup of rice. A seeker who perseveres will one day have spiritual access to the original teachings of these prophets.

What is real life?

Real Life is an innate attribute of God. Real Life is only in God. All else is simply the effect that God is. Stay blessed.

Note to self: Sweetnecta is concluding prematurely 

Yes I will admit I find m_nwankwo's thoughts and reasoning fascinating and attractive but as an individual on a personal journey I don't believe there is partnership in such a spiritual walk. Obviously one may come across like minded individuals or others can offer guidance but this isn't a three-legged race. If I follow someone and that person falls, subsequently I will fall.

m_nwankwo himself has encouraged me not to adopt his pattern (again a type of thinking that enchants me as opposed to being pressured or forced) - notwithstanding I appreciate the concern and compassion of genuine believers who only seek to guide me on a path they believe to be true.

As beautiful as his delivery was I'm still sceptical as to whether all m_nwankwo had said is indeed accurate. His spirituality is individual and subjective - it quite possibly might not even be compatible with my being. so I cannot suddenly conform to his way of thinking without much personal experience no matter how attractive it sounds. I liked his words but more than that I liked his individuality, his decision to embark on such a unique trajectory and the fact he didn't feel complaisant in his religious upbringing but instead sought to seek out the truth for himself. All these things I can identify with.

This is beautiful! There is nothing more to add. You already have the foundation for gaining a personal conviction about God and his will. I repeat, what you read or hear from others are their experiences and no person will come to an absolute conviction of God and his Will by using the experiences of others. Each person must find the Truth about God by himself. Why hump on clutches consisting of the experiences of others while God has given us healthy legs that are capable of galloping like a Zebra. He who seeks shall find! Stay blessed.

tbaba1234:

No one has provided evidence of plagiarism in the Quran,  

there is clear evidence. The mere fact that a lot of the quranic stories do not come from any other source beyond the bible or add nothing new of relevance to the stories . . . is enough proof. Besides, it is this very claim that is behind the strident muslim claim that mohammad could neither read nor write . . . 

If you would like me to provide concrete proof that majority of the stories in the quran are taken from the bible, jewish midrashes or sabean customs pre-islam then speak up. Its time we put this fraud called islam in its place. I await your challenge mr moderate islam.

tbaba1234:

Was ibn kathir's book also written in 2002?

If you read my post you will see where i said Ibn Kathir's book must have been written at least 700 yrs AFTER mohammad. Did no other arab individual catalogue these alleged "islamic traditions BEFORE mohammad and islam? Odd considering Lot lived over 3000 yrs ago and we heard NOTHING of it from the arabs until 1300 AD thereabout.

tbaba1234:

At the time of Lot’s invocation to God, the messengers (angels) were with Prophet Abraham so they informed him of their mission to Lot and his people.  They said,

“And when Our messengers [i.e., angels] came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, “Indeed, we will destroy the people of that [i.e., Lot’s] city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers.” (Quran 29:31)

Abraham was afraid, his nephew Lot was in the town of Sodom and it was about to be destroyed.  He said to the angels “but Lot is there!”  They replied,

“We know better who is there, we will verily save him (Lot) and his family, except his wife, she will be of those who remain behind (i.e. she will be destroyed).” (Quran 29: 32)

The relation between Lot and Abraham was implied in the Quran  and his wife was also mentioned.

Hmmm again this is a retelling of Genesis 18.

Have you ever wondered why the islamic prophets who exist only as names in the quran are the very ones you cant find in the bible? Why is it that the quran NEVER provides any different and unique context to these "prophets" beyond shameless copying from the bible?

tbaba1234:

No one has provided evidence of plagiarism in the Quran,

A. Narrated AbuUmamah
Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said, "Blessed is he who has seen me, but seven times blessed is he who has not seen me but has believed in me."
Ahmad transmitted it. (Number 1688; taken from the ALIM CD-ROM Version)

"Then Jesus told him, ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’" John 20:29

B. Narrated AbudDarda':
I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: If any of you is suffering from anything or his brother is suffering, he should say: Our Lord is Allah Who is in the heaven, holy is Thy name, Thy command reigns supreme in the heaven and the earth, as Thy mercy in the heaven, make Thy mercy in the earth; forgive us our sins, and our errors; Thou art the Lord of good men; send down mercy from Thy mercy, and remedy, and remedy from Thy remedy on this pain so that it is healed up. (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 28, Number 3883)

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." Matthew 6:9-13

Mohammad was a clear fraud.

@tbaba1234

Using a medley of books and using your prejudices and emotions to decide what is true in them is not an objective way to find truth. Why?,  We end up choosing what pleases us and rejecting what doesn't please us.

Sound point.

We have an innate disposition to God (fitra) and will always try to find him.

Interesting.

buzugee:

the reason why you have different alterations in the bible is explained in job 9 vs 24. all of this started during the european rennaisance. prior to this, the world was ruled by black men. king james and emperor constantine were black men but they all got white washed during the rennaisance. this is why the KJV will be the most accurate one to read. so when the world falls into the hands of the wicked he tries to cover the faces of the real judges (the israelites and christ by painting them white from black). this is why they have also had to keep updating the bible to remove the parts where it is starkingly obvious that it was written by black men. then they removed some parts of it (the apocrypha). basically it is a white supremacy agenda fulfilling the job 9 vs 24 prophesy.

Do you read the Kwanzaa bible?