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Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by InesQor(m): 1:37pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
PA1982:I read my sources thoroughly, thank you very much. PA1982:This assumption of yours is tenuous. PA1982:I understand that. The question I was responding to is, "where did Luke get his information since he was not an eyewitness", and as the conclusion - which you are rather quick to allude to - shows, he MAY [/i]have copied Josephus, so you are the one who is going out of context. [i]Do you understand my own emphasis as below? Conclusion I think you should be careful to take note of context in your arguments. As outlined above, the red part illustrates the reason for which I posted the link, quite accurately too. Martian asked for Luke's sources. There, you may be looking at yet another possible source. Maybe Josephus. Maybe Q. Maybe Mark. And maybe some other source. The blue part is not my problem here. As I already said, when there is a lack of adequate historical evidence to the veracity of Luke, you can decide to believe it is fiction, or believe it is true. Believing in Luke or not, is your personal problem, and not mine. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by InesQor(m): 1:45pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
As I said, InesQor: But when it is clear that other historians like Josephus corroborated Luke's content, then the onus is on you to also discredit Josephus (a secular historian who wrote without a religious bent) as well. So, [list] [li]If Luke plagiarized Josephus, and[/li] [li]Josephus is a secular historian[/li] [/list] then again, I say, InesQor: the onus is on you to also discredit Josephus Proving that contrary to claims of Christians covering up, you need to discredit the Jewish secular historian too. And again, that is your problem, not mine. These arguments have been around since the late 16th century. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by Nobody: 2:16pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
InesQor: Did Luke have a time machine? The writings of 1st century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus on Jesus are important non-Christian historical documents that could, if genuine, shed light on the origins of Christianity.[1][2] Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD, includes two references to Jesus in Books 18 and 20 and a reference to John the Baptist in Book 18.[1][3] These references found in Antiquities have no parallel texts in the other work by Josephus such as The Jewish War. Most modern critical scholarship concludes that Luke used the Gospel of Mark for his chronology and a hypothetical sayings source Q document for many of Jesus' teachings. Luke may also have drawn from independent written records.[10] Traditional Christian scholarship has dated the composition of the gospel to the early 60s,[11][12] while higher criticism dates it to the later decades of the 1st century.[ InesQor: You act like the josephus quote is not open to debate due to Josephus sounding like a christian apologist in that one passage. Besides, if the the hasn't been manipulated, why did such a monumental figure get such little detail written about him. "About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and as a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared." The least we can say is somebody name Iesous or yeshua existed, got killed and then a legend arose around him. Won't be the first time. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by DeepSight(m): 2:26pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
Martian: And this is sufficient to close my contentions on this thread. Thread fulfilled. Thanks. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by InesQor(m): 2:47pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
@Martian, I really hope you can read and make comprehensive inferences. I said IF (as was speculated in that conclusion, their words, not mine) Luke plagiarized Josephus, then._._. I never said Luke actually plagiarized Josephus. They may have had common sources. Or maybe Luke used Josephus as source. Or Josephus used Luke as source. My point in all of this is that Josephus writings acts as a witness to Luke's gospel. Unfortunately there is not enough historical evidence to show that the witness is credible, or not. As for your time machine slabber, your wikipedia excerpts say, Wikipedia: Wikipedia: Traditional Christian scholarship has dated the composition of the gospel to the early 60s, while higher criticism dates it to the later decades of the 1st century. What are [b]LATER [/b]decades of the 1st century? Can this possibly be the 9th or 10th decade? We don't have enough information about who came first, Luke or Josephus. And you just had to say: Martian: You act like the josephus quote is not open to debate due to Josephus sounding like a christian apologist in that one passage. I never said Josephus was not open to debate. It has been, since the late 16th century. Unfortunately for you, you can never know whether Josephus was a credible historian or not. Martian: Besides, if the the hasn't been manipulated, why did such a monumental figure get such little detail written about him.In the first century, there were many Jewish "heroes" and insurgents. Jesus would appear, to a passive observer, to be just another one of them. One remarkable thing about history is that it is most often written with the support of the victors, the conquerors, the powerful, the rich. If those in power cared little about Jesus, you've got nothing coming to you as history. At least not much. Deep Sight:Seconded. Arrivederci. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by Nobody: 4:26pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
InesQor: You agree with me anyway. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by PA1982(f): 9:04pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
InesQor: You didn't understand the point of Carrier's article- he appears to have gotten all this information from Josephus, and simply cut-and-pasted it into his own "history" in order to give his story an air of authenticity and realism. All of this came about because you wrote: InesQor: And now in later posts you back off from that rather curious statement, shift goalposts and declare the thread fulfilled. It looks as though you were caught out in a badly thought out post and are frantically back pedalling, doesn't it? And who are those other historians, the ones 'like Josephus' by the way? Martian: You know that passage of Josephus is considered a later 'addition' to the text? |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by InesQor(m): 9:25pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
@PA1982 If that's what you think then I have nothing more to say to you. Cheers. @Martian No, I don't agree with your take. I agree with DeepSight, that your response somewhat satisfies his enquiry. I don't know how you're reading here. Good luck. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by Enigma(m): 9:29pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
InesQor: Abi! Even many of the anti-Christian "scholars" including the 'Jesus Mythologists' now accept the (or at least the partial) authenticity of Josephus i.e. the so-called Testimonium Flavianum. Just google the Latin words. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by Nobody: 9:40pm On Mar 01, 2012 |
InesQor: Deepsight said it was sufficient and you seconded. j/k PA1982: Consensus is that some interpolation was involved. But let them have it, even a broken clock is right two times a day. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by PA1982(f): 8:03am On Mar 02, 2012 |
FXKing2012: I suggest you read what I'd posted. There are many reasons to believe the Book of Daniel was written in the second century BC, due to the numerous historical errors it contains. And? I have the feeling you're still taking in the fact that Martin Luther's bible differs from the KJV. (from another thread) Enigma: I did, years back and I'll do so again to see what's new and exciting on the subject. The last I knew, the word Messias in the TF was confirmed to be a later addition. And we're still waiting for InesQor to answer PA1982: And also I'd like to know why InesQor thinks: InesQor: |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by PA1982(f): 8:15am On Mar 02, 2012 |
Enigma, I'm hunting out info on the TF as you suggested. Here's an interesting analysis I found on another forum: The famous Testamonium Flavianum (the T.F.) in the Antiquities of the Jews is considered probably the best evidence for Jesus, yet it has some serious problems : |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by Enigma(m): 8:17am On Mar 02, 2012 |
@PA1982 Sorry, I don't mean to be rude but my suggestion was really for Inesqor; I am happy to leave you with your view - based on experience. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by PA1982(f): 9:05am On Mar 02, 2012 |
No worries. I'm here to learn and the search is turning up a lot interesting things. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by PA1982(f): 9:20am On Mar 02, 2012 |
^^^^ For example: http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/testimonium.html , It is highly unlikely that Josephus, a believing Jew working under Romans, would have written, "He was the Messiah." This would make him suspect of treason, but nowhere else is there an indication that he was a Christian. Indeed, in Wars of the Jews, Josephus declares that Vespasian fulfilled the messianic oracles. Furthermore, Origen, writing about a century before Eusebius, says twice that Josephus "did not believe in Jesus as the Christ." The author concluded that all in all and despite the later christian meddling with the text, Josephus accepted Jesus as a historical figure. It's interesting to note that if it weren't for the later attempts to skew Josephus' writing, there'd be little question on the subject of Jesus' existence. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by FXKing2012(m): 9:29am On Mar 02, 2012 |
All these conspiracy theorists and skeptics coming up wt all sorts of twisted analysis just to disprove the authenticity of the Bible and its contents in order to lure people away from believing the Bible. They have always failed and will continue to fail. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by Enigma(m): 9:44am On Mar 02, 2012 |
^^ No need to waste any time on this particular one about Josephus; informed people know where current scholarship is on that one and the outcome, even putting the scholarship at the most disadvantageous level to Christianity, is that Josephus is indeed an independent corroborating account. |
Re: The Historicity Of The Books Of The Bible - Reference: Daniel. by PA1982(f): 3:41pm On Mar 02, 2012 |
^^ True. Now, about the Book of Daniel, which formed the bulk of the OP? What I've found suggests it shouldn't be considered a book of prophecy at all, but rather was written at the times of the Maccabean era to uplift the Jews' morale. |
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