Joagbaje:

What I was trying to pass across to Goshen is either fixed wages or daily stipends it doesn't make a difference . If you put all together it still amount to something  either monthly or weekly. It's not the name it's called that counts  ,wages ,alowance , wrlfare ,support, But the principle If its biblical or not.

Please show me in the bible where any of the apostles got daily stipends or even fixed wages.

Joagbaje:

You were not fast enough, i caught your post in the web

I changed my mind about posting it

davidylan:

huh? What does it mean to "have a pastor under you"? You mean shirking your own spiritual responsibility and expecting to be spoonfed by another? What of the Berean christians? Werent they under the pastorship of Paul? why did the bible record that they were more blessed because they went home critically reading to be sure they were being taught the truth by Paul?
Quite sad . . . this age has spawned a bunch of christians who are spiritually lazy, heavy on man's doctrine and light on the truth of the gospel.

Obviously am correct
Sure as christians we should study
 2 Timothy 2:15
15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

But this does not take the place of your pastor

 Ephesians 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Jeremiah 3:15
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Azibalua:

 But this does not take the place of your pastor

 Ephesians 4:11-12
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Jeremiah 3:15
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

At no point here do i advocate doing away with pastors. The berean christians didnt ask Paul to leave so they could study all by themselves. While they were under the ministration of Paul, they still did their own independent study to verify whether the things he said were true or not. I dont read anywhere where these berean brethren were paying Paul an exorbitant honorarium just to preach the word to them either.

What i simply said is fact - the term "pastor" has become a bastardized term today. It is now an official richly paying occupation for those who could not find a regular job.

@ goshen

Your problem is semantics. That the bible did not mention receipt of salary does not make it wrong. Wages/salary is a type of support so as far as I'm concerned it is valid.

The key here is motive - if people seek to preach motivated by money then that is wrong. However, simply being supported, even full time is not prohibited in the bible.

freshcvv:

Please show me in the bible where any of the apostles got daily stipends or even fixed wages.

Now you see where and how you are caught in your own words by your head knowledge of the word of God. Kindly answer the question. You made a comment and deleted it, while you are trynna do that, freshcvv quoted you. That shows you are not pure delivering the word of God. Am very sorry to say this to you but the only thing you have to explain and justify your action is that you changed your mind. I rather you completely change your mind about all your head knowledge and poisonous teachings you are spreading.

I love you still.

debosky:

@ goshen

Your problem is semantics. That the bible did not mention receipt of salary does not make it wrong. Wages/salary is a type of support so as far as I'm concerned it is valid.

The key here is motive - if people seek to preach motivated by money then that is wrong. However, simply being supported, even full time is not prohibited in the bible.

Someone along the line of our discussion had to help you. Ok. Tell us where in the bible is Apostles or Jesus received FIXED SUPPORT if you choose to say salary and support means same thing. We are waiting for you my dear. I am biblically for supporting ministers of the gospel and you can tell us the difference btw salary and support.

Where in the bible did God say fixed support is wrong?

Because fixed support is not mentioned specifically doesn't make it wrong. Support is permitted - if YOU think it's not right, don't try to force your views nor prescribe for others.

We are not forcing view here. This is purely one of mal-practices in the church and body of Christ. We are opening the bible to ourselves. When it is not mentioned in the bible, why do men make mountains or teachings to justify it? Support is support and it must not be fixed unlike salary. Bible validates support but not salary. I hope you get this sir?

Your argument is baseless. Goshen . Isnt it obvious to you. Why playing on semantics. Snowwy and debosky had given you enough clarification. I know you may be too proud to admit my point. But you know you're caught in a web.

goshen360:

Now you see where and how you are caught in your own words by your head knowledge of the word of God. Kindly answer the question. You made a comment and deleted it, while you are trynna do that, freshcvv quoted you.

It's my choice ,I didn't read the other comment before posting. When I saw the other comment ,i felt there was no need. So I deleted. Do you have problem with that ?

That shows you are not pure delivering the word of God.

Very funny , just because I deleted my post . I still stand by the words I posted . Ok let's go let me repost .

. . . Either fixed wages or daily stipends it doesn't make a difference . If you put all together it still amount to something  either monthly or weekly. It's not the name it's called that counts  ,wages ,alowance , wrlfare ,support, But the principle If its biblical or not.

  I rather you completely change your mind about all your head knowledge and poisonous teachings you are spreading.

don't insult me. Deal with the topic. Mr holy broda.

I love you still.  

Wish you  understand what love is. 

Let's get something straight. Goshen has raised a point that traditionalists and conformists shy away from. It may rock the boat but the body needs to hear it.

There are missionaries and itinerant ministers who cannot realistically retain their day jobs. This category of ministers have a right to financial support from the church. That right is what Paul chose to let go when he decided to labour with his hands. But there is another category of ministers who have not been called into the mission field. They choose to do what they term 'full-time ministry' and devise a salary structure for themselves. This has no basis in scripture, as Goshen rightly said. I have functioned as an assistant pastor before without giving up my day job. The ministry didn't suffer attention but I didn't have to take any stipend or wage from the church, neither did my pastor or other ministers in church. We all retained our day jobs and did what the Lord would have us do in church without expecting to be paid. Were we 'full time ministers'? Yes. Perhaps not by traditional definition.

That we didn't get paid doesn't make it a rule for all pastors to abide by, but my point here is that 'clergy' salary is scripturally baseless. Pastors do not have to give up paid employment to be effective. The real problem is that we have made ministry a vocation in the 21st century church.

cautious:

Let's get something straight. Goshen has raised a point that traditionalists and conformists shy away from. It may rock the boat but the body needs to hear it.

There are missionaries and itinerant ministers who cannot realistically retain their day jobs. This category of ministers have a right to financial support from the church. That right is what Paul chose to let go when he decided to labour with his hands. But there is another category of ministers who have not been called into the mission field. They choose to do what they term 'full-time ministry' and devise a salary structure for themselves. This has no basis in scripture, as Goshen rightly said. I have functioned as an assistant pastor before without giving up my day job. The ministry didn't suffer attention but I didn't have to take any stipend or wage from the church, neither did my pastor or other ministers in church. We all retained our day jobs and did what the Lord would have us do in church without expecting to be paid. Were we 'full time ministers'? Yes. Perhaps not by traditional definition.

That we didn't get paid doesn't make it a rule for all pastors to abide by, but my point here is that 'clergy' salary is scripturally baseless. Pastors do not have to give up paid employment to be effective. The real problem is that we have made ministry a vocation in the 21st century church.    

 

People go to school now to take pastoring as a career, everyone thinks pastoring is another kind of jobs out there, hence the reasons for different kind of pastors, doctrines and teachings.

IF THERE WAS NO SALARY STRUCTURE, half of people calling themselves pastors now adays wouldn't be one.

What i think Goshen is trying to pass accross is that, people in most Nigeria have bastardized pastorship because of the financial gains attached to it and this is turning this "SACRED" SACRIFICE of a position into a JOKE where all manner of people wake up in the morning to say "I HAVE BEEN CALLED"


HOW MANY MISSIONARIES DO WE HAVE IN NIGERIA?
HOW MANY CHURCHES DO WE HAVE IN THE REMOTE VILLAGES WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO GIVE AS TITHE AND OFFERINGS?
HOW MANY PEOPLE WHO CLAIMED THEY WERE CALLED WOULD WILLINGLY FUND THE CHURCH AND ITS ACTIVITIES WITH THEIR OWN MONEY?

goshen360:

We are not forcing view here. This is purely one of mal-practices in the church and body of Christ. We are opening the bible to ourselves. When it is not mentioned in the bible, why do men make mountains or teachings to justify it? Support is support and it must not be fixed unlike salary. Bible validates support but not salary. I hope you get this sir?

You have failed to distinguish between support and a fixed salary.

Take a layman example: as a student my parents support me while I'm in school. How do they support me? They do so by giving me a fixed allowance each month. Is it no longer support from my parents because it's a fixed amount monthly? No.

I'm not making a mountain out of anything - the bible clearly endorses providing financial support to those who preach the gospel. If church groups decide to make this financial support a regular monthly figure to aid planning and so on, that doesn't make it mal-practice in any way.

freshcvv:

People go to school now to take pastoring as a career, everyone thinks pastoring is another kind of jobs out there, hence the reasons for different kind of pastors, doctrines and teachings.

IF THERE WAS NO SALARY STRUCTURE, half of people calling themselves pastors now adays wouldn't be one.

What i think Goshen is trying to pass accross is that, people in most Nigeria have bastardized pastorship because of the financial gains attached to it and this is turning this "SACRED" SACRIFICE of a position into a JOKE where all manner of people wake up in the morning to say "I HAVE BEEN CALLED"


HOW MANY MISSIONARIES DO WE HAVE IN NIGERIA?
HOW MANY CHURCHES DO WE HAVE IN THE REMOTE VILLAGES WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE MONEY TO GIVE AS TITHE AND OFFERINGS?
HOW MANY PEOPLE WHO CLAIMED THEY WERE CALLED WOULD WILLINGLY FUND THE CHURCH AND ITS ACTIVITIES WITH THEIR OWN MONEY?

Mr fresh, how many villages have you preached the gospel. Are we not all called to this mandate. You will be schocked to find out the volume of ministry work done in the villages by Nigerian ministries.

Please leave your day job and go and preach in a village. This arm chair criticism of those that decide to make an effort is shocking and moreso from those that have have experienced christ. It is either you guys have never really been involved in active ministry or this is purely been extracted from a Nigerian perspective.

This notion that because there are excesses by a few then it makes it unscriptural begs for common sense. I once attended a ministry in a quiet part of the UK and there were 2 paid ministers, 1 part time and the other full time. These guys gave their all and at a point one of the ministers was having marital issues because he had to always be in church. The trustees decided that they had to take on 1 more paid minister. These guys could do the job for free and actually the 1 that was taken was was previously a volunteer.

The so called salary structure is a support for these guys, how will they feed their family. The ministry i attended had outreaches in Uganda, tanzania and at from the wages they were paid by the church travel to this areas to monitor the outreaches.

Mr Goshen has dramatically ignored the celibate issue and a few others are calling pastors an abused title.  Oh well what can i say but that look at your life and if indeed you are perfect then keep throwing these stones, but if you are in a continous process of renewal then put on a scriptural cap (which should be your default mode anyway) and judge wisely.

If you want to bash individual ministries feel free and open a thread though that in my opinion is uncalled for but the fact that fixed support of ministers is scriptural is obvious to all if we are to be honest.

I havnt been on naira land for a while and though not currently in nigeria to physically see some of the excesses but the bitterness i observe from nigerian christains is really worrying.

debosky:

You have failed to distinguish between support and a fixed salary.

Take a layman example: as a student my parents support me while I'm in school. How do they support me? They do so by giving me a fixed allowance each month. Is it no longer support from my parents because it's a fixed amount monthly? No.

I'm not making a mountain out of anything - the bible clearly endorses providing financial support to those who preach the gospel. If church groups decide to make this financial support a regular monthly figure to aid planning and so on, that doesn't make it mal-practice in any way.

Thanks for such a clear analogy, it beggers belief what these folks are trying to justify here. God bless you.

i want to tell you some things,

please add some things about,

Our arguments are based on translations by King James who's sole aim was to use Religion to milk the poor people of England back then. Backed by the Catholic Church what do we get, you see some 'english' like wages and salaries and then some 'wanna be intellectuals' are shouting semantics semantics! blah!

Go bring out the Hebrew or Aramaic version lets know what they actually said there.

But seriously why would Pastorship be a job and why they earn salaries? then salvation is not free then eh eh eh

THEN THE CHURCH MUST BE TAXED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To resolve this once and for all. Please see the link below.

http://bible.cc/1_timothy/5-18.htm

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible[/b]The Scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox - This is a manifest proof that by τιμη, honor, in the preceding verse, the apostle means [b]salary or wages: "Let the elders that rule well be accounted worthy of double honor," a larger salary than any of the official widows mentioned before, for "the laborer is worthy of his hire." The maintenance of every man in the Church should be in proportion to his own labor, and the necessities of his family. He that does no work should have no wages. In the Church of Christ there never can be a sinecure. They who minister at the altar should live by the altar; the ox that treadeth out the corn should not be muzzled; the laborer is worthy of his hire: but the altar should not support him who does not minister at it; if the ox won't tread out the corn, let him go to the common or be muzzled; if the man will not labor, let him have no hire.

@ Joagbaje Who told you paul the apostle wasn't maried? Or just because the bible didn't say it explicitly now means he wasn't married? Sorry to hurt your feelings bro, but Paul the apostle was once a married man.
@stil dude What i dont understand is why People take the honor to themselves and boast about it(Am referring to the way those pastors use that word ministry).

cautious:


There are missionaries and itinerant ministers who cannot realistically retain their day jobs. This category of ministers have a right to financial support from the church. That right is what Paul chose to let go when he decided to labour with his hands. But there is another category of ministers who have not been called into the mission field.

What do you mean by mission field?

They choose to do what they term 'full-time ministry' and devise a salary structure for themselves. This has no basis in scripture,

Let's get something straight. If you are criticizing Mr "A" or pastor "A " for his action . We can understand  based on how much you know of him. But if you criticize a principle,or structure or institution just because of Mr "A " something else. You don't give a blanket condemnation because of some individual.

If a particular man goes into full time ministry for a selfish reason , does that make everybody in full time ministry like him.? But that's not the case here. Goshen is saying that every minister who works full time is lazy.

. I have functioned as an assistant pastor before without giving up my day job. The ministry didn't suffer attention but I didn't have to take any stipend or wage from the church, neither did my pastor or other ministers in church. We all retained our day jobs and did what the Lord would have us do in church without expecting to be paid.

That is LAY MINISTRY.  Not full time .

Were we 'full time ministers'? Yes.

No ,you're lay minister. Full time ministry is a calling. Aquilla and Priscilla were lay ministers.  Paul was full time minister. Other apostles were full time ministers .

When you're into full time , you wont hav time or any other thing because mthe ministry work will o much demand your time. Do you know what it means to devote time to fasting and praying . Can a banker  go on 7 days fast ? Will he concentrate in the bank. What you guys should do is to find out he work of a full time minister.

Paul’s Chains Advance the Gospel

Philippians 1:12 Now I want you to know, brothers and sisters,[b] that what has happened to me has actually served to advance the gospel.

Philippians 1:13 As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard[c] and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ.

Philippians 1:14 And because of my chains, most of the brothers and sisters have become confident in the Lord and dare all the more to proclaim the gospel without fear.

Philippians 1:15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill.

Philippians 1:16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel.

Philippians 1:17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.

Philippians 1:18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.

 

Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,

Philippians 1:19 for I know that through your prayers and God’s provision of the Spirit of Jesus Christ what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.[d]

Philippians 1:20 I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death.

Philippians 1:21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.

Philippians 1:22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know!

Philippians 1:23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far;

Philippians 1:24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

Philippians 1:25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith,

Philippians 1:26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

[quote][/quote]

@Joagbaje
"Paul was a full time minister" yet the bible records on several occasions that he was working to support himself. So going by your using the example of Paul, other full time ministers should exemplify him and also work to support themselves.

away4real:

Mr fresh, how many villages have you preached the gospel. Are we not all called to this mandate. You will be schocked to find out the volume of ministry work done in the villages by Nigerian ministries.

Please leave your day job and go and preach in a village. This arm chair criticism of those that decide to make an effort is shocking and moreso from those that have have experienced christ. It is either you guys have never really been involved in active ministry or this is purely been extracted from a Nigerian perspective.

This notion that because there are excesses by a few then it makes it unscriptural begs for common sense. I once attended a ministry in a quiet part of the UK and there were 2 paid ministers, 1 part time and the other full time. These guys gave their all and at a point one of the ministers was having marital issues because he had to always be in church. The trustees decided that they had to take on 1 more paid minister. These guys could do the job for free and actually the 1 that was taken was was previously a volunteer.

The so called salary structure is a support for these guys, how will they feed their family. The ministry i attended had outreaches in Uganda, tanzania and at from the wages they were paid by the church travel to this areas to monitor the outreaches.

Mr Goshen has dramatically ignored the celibate issue and a few others are calling pastors an abused title.  Oh well what can i say but that look at your life and if indeed you are perfect then keep throwing these stones, but if you are in a continous process of renewal then put on a scriptural cap (which should be your default mode anyway) and judge wisely.

If you want to bash individual ministries feel free and open a thread though that in my opinion is uncalled for but the fact that fixed support of ministers is scriptural is obvious to all if we are to be honest.

I havnt been on naira land for a while and though not currently in nigeria to physically see some of the excesses but the bitterness i observe from nigerian christains is really worrying.

Did i claim i was called? my post is to those who claimed they were called, so stop trying to personalize this.

This issue has been put to bed.  The different translations and commentaries state the obvious.

There are several cross references in the link below from Paul and other apostles.  

http://bible.cc/1_timothy/5-18.htm

Mr Fresh I am not trying to personalise, if you say you are not called, I take it you are not a christain, if so apologies.

Pastor Kun:

@Joagbaje
"Paul was a full time minister" yet the bible records on several occasions that he was working to support himself. So going by your using the example of Paul, other full time ministers should exemplify him and also work to support themselves.

Pastor Kun, yet Paul states ministers should be supported. Lets look at Paul AND the other apostles. The bible is way too clear for christains to be having dis debate.

away4real:


Mr Fresh I am not trying to personalise, if you say you are not called, I take it you are not a christain, if so apologies.

Tell me, are you a pastor? do you have sheep you look over spiritually? before i answer your question, answer mine. so because i said i was not called to be a "pastor", i am no longer a christian? was everyone in the new testament day a pastor? out of all the disciples of Christ, was it recorded that all of them preached and became full time pastors? did that make any of them less christian?

stepo707:

@ Joagbaje Who told you paul the apostle wasn't maried? Or just because the bible didn't say it explicitly now means he wasn't married?

It was stated in the bible .

1 Corinthians 9:5
5 We each have the right to marry one of the Lord's followers and to take her along with us, just as the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Peter do.

1 Corinthians 7:7
7 I wish everyone could get along without marrying, just as I do. But we are not all the same. God gives some the gift of a husband or wife, and others he gives the gift of being able to stay happily unmarried.

Sorry to hurt your feelings bro, but Paul the apostle was once a married man.

You are not hurting my feeling .i know Some of you seem to be out just to oppose anything joagbaje says . Why not just study. . . .and study . .and dwell on truth instead of opposing Jo.

@away4real
I do support the notion that preachers of the gospel ought to be supported, I was just trying to point out the irony of joagbaje using Paul as an example to justify full time pastors not doing any other job.

Pastor Kun
Posts: 470

Online

 Re: Preachers And Pastors Receiving Monthly Salary For Preaching The Gospel.
« #120 on: Today at 12:08:44 PM »  

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@Joagbaje
"Paul was a full time minister" yet the bible records on several occasions that he was working to support himself. So going by your using the example of Paul, other full time ministers should exemplify him and also work to support themselves.

paul said i do not wish to be a burden to you i work with my hands night and day in labour so i can bring this gospel to you free of charge


Prayer

2 Thessalonians 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us,  that the word of the Lord may spread rapidly and be glorified,  even as also with you;

2 Thessalonians 3:2 and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and evil men; for not all have faith.

2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you, and guard you from the evil one.

2 Thessalonians 3:4 We have confidence in the Lord concerning you, that you both do and will do the things we command.

2 Thessalonians3:5 May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of Christ.

Commands Dealing with the Idle

2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,  that you withdraw yourselves from every brother who walks in rebellion,  and not after the tradition which they received from us.

2 Thessalonians3:7 For you know how you ought to imitate us.  For we didn't behave ourselves rebelliously among you,

2 Thessalonians3:8 neither did we eat bread from anyone's hand without paying for it,  but in labor and travail worked night and day, that we might not burden any of you;

2 Thessalonians3:9 not because we don't have the right,  but to make ourselves an example to you, that you should imitate us.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: "If anyone will not work, neither let him eat."

2 Thessalonians 3:11 For we hear of some who walk among you in rebellion, who don't work at all, but are busybodies.

2 Thessalonians 3:12 Now those who are that way, we command and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ,  that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

2 Thessalonians 3:13 But you, brothers, don't be weary in doing well.

2 Thessalonians 3:14 If any man doesn't obey our word in this letter, note that man,  that you have no company with him, to the end that he may be ashamed.

2 Thessalonians 3:15 Don't count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Farewell

2 Thessalonians 3:16 Now may the Lord of peace himself give you peace at all times in all ways.
The Lord be with you all.

2 Thessalonians 3:17 The greeting of me, Paul, with my own hand,  which is the sign in every letter: this is how I write.

2 Thessalonians 3:18 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Pastor Kun:

@Joagbaje
"Paul was a full time minister" yet the bible records on several occasions that he was working to support himself. So going by your using the example of Paul, other full time ministers should exemplify him and also work to support themselves.

Paul only worked in Corinth because of the carnality of the Corinthians ,they were stingy. So ,paul didnt want them to call him names due to their carnal minds. He supported himself while he was with them he also recieved money from other churches.

He also made his action clear to them. He made them know he was aware of his rights as a minister to recieve money from them like other apostles. Who were also on full time .

1 Corinthians 9:4-9
4 Have we not the right to our food and drink [at the expense of the churches]?
5 Have we not the right also to take along with us a Christian sister as wife, as do the other apostles and the Lords brothers and Cephas (Peter)?
6 Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from doing manual labor for a livelihood [in order to go about the work of the ministry]?
7 [Consider this:] What soldier at any time serves at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of the fruit of it? Who tends a flock and does not partake of the milk of the flock?
8 Do I say this only on human authority and as a man reasons? Does not the Law endorse the same principle?
9 For in the Law of Moses it is written, You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the corn. Is it [only] for oxen that God cares?

The point is. Ministers who are called to lay ministry ,doing business and jobs should go ahead , and those who are not allowed to do any other thing should not be condemned.

Some people have resigned lucrative jobs to go full time ministry. It's not laziness it's sacrifice. Some have family turned agsinst them , some even experience wives divorcing them.