No!(Exodus 20:4, 5)Jehovah says that we must worship only him.He will not share his glory with anyone or anything else.Images have no power to help us. - Psalm 115:4-8;Isaiah 42:8.

thats the protestant side.
catholics however belief that using symbols and images help them to focus on prayers i.e the use of rosary and stations of the cross

Whether protestant, Catholic or JW (Jehovah Witness), faith is what saves - and it is faith that works by love that sustains the Christian life and witness.

The context of the Exodus, Psalms and Isaiah texts are related to warnings to God's people about the dangers of engaging in idolatory. It is clear that God hates worship centered on idolatory even if that worship is ascribed to Him.

However, when it comes to images used in the Old Testament worship, there we find explicit directions of how the cherubim were to be made. These were depictions of angelic beings that covered the mercy seat (compare Exo.25:18-20); they were not depictions of God Himself, because God cannot be compared to anything or anyone else - visible or invisible - and that is why He warned that no one should make any image to worship or bow down to it (Exo.20:4-5 and compare: "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?" Isa 40:18). There's nothing and no one to compare to God and that is why He would not share His glory with anyone else. Notice also, that a true worshipper never bowed down in worship to the cherubim or any image used in the OT temple - they knew that the cherubim were not God Himself nor depicting God.

However, in New Testament times, after Jesus had been glorified, the true meaning of the OT symbols were now brought out powerfully. One such case is that God would no longer dwell in temples made by hands ("Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet; Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?" Acts 7:48-49). Jesus had announced that the Father was seeking true worshippers to worship Him in spirit and in truth (John4:24). This means that we are the Temple of the living God where He dwells in us by the Spirit (I Cor.3:16). No cherub dwells in this NT Temple; only God Himself dwells there. That is why the NT way of worship is radically different from the OT. Hebrews 9 is a wonderful chapter that explains why the use of carved/graven images in NT worship is not acceptable to God. Paul's inspired argument is that they do not make the conscience of the believer perfect and thus classed as dead works.

When debating the issue of using images in worship, a believer should ask some questions:

(1) who/what does the image represent - does it depict God or something/someone less than God? If it is less than God, why are you bowing down to it? (Isa.40:18).

(2) if you bow down to, pray to, or solicit the prayers of the images (whether or not they represent saints or rosary), are you sure you're not violating the clear commandment of God not to do so? (Exo.20:4-5).

(3) what was Jesus' and the early Christian example - did you read anywhere in the Scriptures that they bowed down to images in order to improve their faith? (Eph.2:18 and 3:12).

We live in a day when people wonder if the Christian faith could be understood and lived - and Jesus Himself clearly warned that such a time will come. I just have one guarantee - that God's word stands forever and careful study will provide answers on any subject (I Pet.1:25).

, Don't misinterpret the bible. Let's think for a minute because it's oh so hard to do. Before 2000 years ago what did people worship [in words of images] golden animal sculptures. This is what it refers to, fake Gods that are nothing more than a peice of art and money. You think the camara is the devil's tool? You are in need of serious theropy my friend. Images of Jesus are reminers of him, they are not worshiped, do not be foolish.

And please, when I look at a picture of my dead grandma and I smile, you mean to say it is resonable to think I am enjoying the picture because it's pretty and I think it's just wonderful? No it's a memory of my grandmother.

Jackie24,

How did I misinterpret the Bible? Where did you read that the early Christians had images of Jesus as reminders of Him? I'd like to see you sensibly point out the Bible verses where you think I got it wrong.

Your grandmother's picture does not square with the issue of discussion - looking at her picture is not the same thing as what God has warned against concerning the use of images in worship.

I did not read your post and I do not quote the bible. Those who do use it for argueing purposes and I have no place for that. And having a picture of my grandmother and thinking of her is the same exact thing as having a picture of Jesus and thinking of him. It is simply the search for an arguement and judgement to make such an idiotic claim that it is sinful to have images that remind us of God in our homes. Quote the bible all you want, it is misread and misleading, it is misinterpreted and parts of it even fake, some peices erased from history. I do not trust the whole bible, ESPECIALLY when given only peices of it at a time.
The bible contradicts itself many times.

Jackie24:

I did not read your post and I do not quote the bible. Those who do use it for argueing purposes and I have no place for that. And having a picture of my grandmother and thinking of her is the same exact thing as having a picture of Jesus and thinking of him. It is simply the search for an arguement and judgement to make such an idiotic claim that it is sinful to have images that remind us of God in our homes. Quote the bible all you want, it is misread and misleading, it is misinterpreted and parts of it even fake, some peices erased from history. I do not trust the whole bible, ESPECIALLY when given only peices of it at a time.
The bible contradicts itself many times.

I'm surprised that as a Catholic you would say the sort of things you're saying. If the Bible contradicts itself many times, then your Catholic interpretations are definitely flawed - because by your own generalizations and summations, the Catholic Bible would contradict itself "many times" as it fits into your description that it is misread, misleading, misinterpreted, even fake, and some pieces erased. As you do not trust the whole Bible (especially the Catholic Bible), would that be a hint as to why you could not defend your statements and ideas, perhaps because there are all fake?


*Disclaimer: This is not to say that my response is attacking the Catholic faith as not every Catholic agrees with Jackie24's views, interpretations or generalizations.

@Welborn, you can argue your point from now till eternity because thats your belief. Catholics have their which will always be in conflict with yours.

Your continued use of catholic Bible is rather funny because it simply demonstrates that you lack the knowledge of history of christianity. Who made your Bible what it is? CATHOLICS! Believe it or not Chriatianity started as Catholicism before factions started emerging due to misinterpretations of the Bible. Jackie is trying to put this forward but in a rather harsh way.

The end product of Bible misinterpretations is Protestantism which you and many other christians today belong to.

Idolatory is different from use of images in worship. Idolater is worshiping his/her symbol but a catholic praying or celebrating mass infront of a crucifix is not worshiping the wooden crucifix but who it represents. You can argue against this till next year.

The cherubs being referred to in the ark were they not heavenly beings too but God gave that specifications because it doesnt annoy him.

When protestents argue about the Bible as if it is their own God sent gift it makes me laugh. Was it not Catholics that compiled all the books of the NT and made it joined it to the SCRIPTURES to make today's bible. Catholicism took its root from the apostles after Christ's Asscencion. Before that He prayed that his followers be one. But what happened.

Protestants can say that we worship idols or do many other things which they say is unbiblical because they want to achieve one objective -- to get larger congregation which is equal to more profit. Catholic church has gone beyond that stage. The church is only looking to converting non christians and directing her followers to the way of Christ period.

I will advise any catholic who really want to make stay focussed in worshiping God to avoid arguments like this because that is what protestants are always looking forward to.

Your response would have made sense if it was coherent, but let's bare a few facts out.

biggjoe:

Believe it or not Chriatianity started as Catholicism before factions started emerging due to misinterpretations of the Bible. Jackie is trying to put this forward but in a rather harsh way.

The end product of Bible misinterpretations is Protestantism which you and many other christians today belong to.

Though you acknowledged that Jackie24's response was somewhat harsh, I had stated that my rejoinder to hers was not seeking to attack the Catholic Church/faith (see my disclaimer). However, your getting upset by my reply has not helped established good sense in yours. You obviously are as ignorant as me or worse if you suppose that "Christianity started as Catholicism" because it actually did not - you even contradicted your own argument by saying: "Catholicism took its root from the apostles after Christ's Asscencion." Read the beginnings of the Church in Acts 1-2 and see for yourself.

biggjoe:

Your continued use of catholic Bible is rather funny because it simply demonstrates that you lack the knowledge of history of christianity. Who made your Bible what it is? CATHOLICS! . . .

When protestents argue about the Bible as if it is their own God sent gift it makes me laugh. Was it not Catholics that compiled all the books of the NT and made it joined it to the SCRIPTURES to make today's bible.

Protestants may use a canon of the Bible somewhat different from Catholics, and your argument that Catholics gave protestants their Bible says nothing about your commitment to Christ. Do you read your own Bible. . . does Jackie24? How do you begin to discuss a subject with someone who says she neither quotes nor trusts the Bible? It is okay if she doesn't trust the Bible; but which Bible was she referring to as 'fake' and having been erased in some parts - the same one that Catholics gave Protestants? So, you agree that the corruption did not come from the Protestants but from you Catholics who gave us the Bible! It is not protestant evangelicals that say they don't trust the Bible or consider it misleading or fake - it is often Catholics who get so angry at nothing that blurt out such shame; and to think that the Bible that Catholics gave us protestants can't even be trusted by Catholics themselves is a bigger shame.

biggjoe:

Idolatory is different from use of images in worship. Idolater is worshiping his/her symbol but a catholic praying or celebrating mass infront of a crucifix is not worshiping the wooden crucifix but who it represents. You can argue against this till next year.

The cherubs being referred to in the ark were they not heavenly beings too but God gave that specifications because it doesnt annoy him.

The cherubim certainly are heavenly beings, and their depiction was ordained by God. But did you read anywhere that anyone bowed to the image of the cherubim? Was that what God asked them to do - to bow down to any image or pray in front of them as the Catholic Church would have you believe? There's no argument about this - just kindly quote me from any Bible of your choice where any true worshipper bowed to any image of a cherub. If there was nothing wrong with using images in worship as you would like to believe, why then did the Israelites not make images or statutes of Abraham, Moses, Joshua, and the seventy elders in the Old Testament? The early Christians never had a crucifix with them until the Catholic Church introduced it into Christian worship and claimed that it dated to the first century. There's nothing wrong with having pictures of people - I have loads of albums of friends and acquaintances; but that is not the same thing as the crucifix and other statues that you're asked to bow down to in Catholicism. You're surely not asking the right questions or making appropriate inferences.

biggjoe:

Catholicism took its root from the apostles after Christ's Asscencion. Before that He prayed that his followers be one. But what happened.

Protestants can say that we worship idols or do many other things which they say is unbiblical because they want to achieve one objective -- to get larger congregation which is equal to more profit. Catholic church has gone beyond that stage. The church is only looking to converting non christians and directing her followers to the way of Christ period.

If you want to argue about the unity of Catholics, it'll be a shame to revisit history - the whole world saw how divided Catholics were after Pope John Paul II passed into blessed memory. How many Catholics are actually in favour of the incumbent pope? Ok, centuries after protestants left the Catholic Church, where's the unity you boast of? You're sounding so accusative that you can't face reality. Not all protestant churches could be accused of seeking any profit - financial or political - and that's the propaganda that you're still feeding your mind with. There are hundreds of evangelical ministers whose passion for the salvation of souls is evident.

It's human to get angry at truth especially where it exposes human bias and tradition. Most Catholics just cannot face up to the truths discovered in the Bible due to diehard traditions. I'm not drawing out a quarrel, but if someone asserts a notion that has no basis in God's Word, I totally reject such regardless of the claim.

Images and symbols of any kind in worshipping GOD, to me is idolatry. And idolatry is one sin that God frowns at seriously. But then our Catholic brethren use images of Jesus and Mary in their worship, so what then do we say?let's leave the judgment for the Almighty.

I am so surprised to hear someone that calls himself(or rather someone that is tying to defend himself as) a Christian “Catholic” say that the Bible is misread,misleading,contradicting etc.

I know we all have the free liberty to say whatever we want,however we want it & wherever we want to say it but, i think saying that against God’s own word could have effect sometimes and it is pretty Bad.

There is power in every spoken word you know!

Back to the topic,i just have 1(i&ii) questions.
i)What makes you think the Image you are using in worship and prayer is the real Image of Jesus?
ii)Did you (or whoever that made or“introduced “ the image) see Jesus or did you just Imaginize an Image and say it is that of Jesus?

D bible says those makin them and bowing down to them,wil be just like them.Little children,flee from idols.Right from the time of the apostles,there were those that worshiped using idols.That's Y that command was penned. So its referin to catholics.Since we can distinguish bad from wrong,then,lets tell it to them.Dont wait for God to tell them,cos,by then,t'll be too late.

God's command to feel from idols was not just referring to one group of Christians - everyone is to take heed: Catholic, Protestant and others. Idolatry in the NT goes beyond merely bowing down to sculptured images. It can include pollutions of idols (Acts 15:20, 29), as well as fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness (Col. 3:5). Idolatry in the latter sense is classed as works of the flesh in Gla. 5:19-20.

As you can see, idolatry is not just a matter of what we observe practised in one group or another - whether in bowing down to this or that. We ought to flee from the idols of our own hearts before we can see better to ask our brethren to flee from the sculptures of another system. How much covetousness does God see in some of our own hearts? How much uncleanness and inordinate affection? Isn't it laughable that some can actually be boastful of their "humility" when in fact they manifest unbridled pride? Think of the pain it brings to God's heart that some who flock to church on Sundays would find pleasure in watching "soft porn" with no tinge of caution to their consciences. Are these not idolatry as well? May God help each one of us to see beyond our small complaints. Flee. . . flee. . . flee from those "idols" which are not so obvious but tucked away in the heart, because that is where the real danger lurks.

God hates idolatry of the heart as much as He does the sculptures that people bow down to -

"For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me,
and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a
prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man,
and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am
the LORD." (Eze 14:7-.

However, His loving grace holds out a promise of forgiveness and cleansing to those who repent:

"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I
cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony
heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk
in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Eze 36:25-27).

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,
I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from
among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a
Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." (2Co 6:16-18).

God bless.

the simple answer is no,

why should we, the catholics that make use of images break this law,

remember "thou shalt not make anything from this earth and bow to it", they do it, and justify their reasons,

God said this, why go against it,

lordimpaq:

why should we, the catholics that make use of images break this law,

That's true, and sad as it is. However, it's not just about what we bow down to, but includes what's in our hearts as well.

well i don't blame them,


they should look inwardly, i believe those u ignore the truth are pple that are not able to stand up against the crowd

No!

well feel free to defend your reason

Ofcourse, you should use symbols in worship of our Aryan Jesus. Make sure the symbol of Jesus is tall, blond, and has blue eyes. The Nazi's would be proud.

@afeni

is that supposed to be a joke or what?

No, it is not a joke. I am just spreading the truth. Don't worry, time would heal the pain I have inflicted on your love Jesuu Christo.

Best of luck getting into Aryan Heaven my "Brothers and Sisters". And while you are at it, say a little prayer for your ancestors that failed to accept Jesuu Christo. After all, they will be in hell for all eternity for not accepting your one and only.

@afeni

u know what, i don't know what u are talkin about, u haven't been reading my posts have u,

ok first of all let me introduce u to me,

i am a seventh day adventist who does not believe in the use of symbols or beads wat so eva

so whats ur point about aryan jesus, it just does not fit,

My comments where aimed at the general population of this thread, not to you in particular. As for you being a 7 day blah blah, well, you wont be a 7 day Blah blah if the Aryans have not invaded and destroyed our ancestral Gods.

You being a Christian, has nothing to do with your love of "Blue eyed Jesus". It has everything to do with the British forcing the natives of Nigeria to accept "Blue eyed Jesus" as your saviour.

Enjoy your precious Lord. Just remember, Jesus or Muhammed is not our God, they are the Gods of invaders, and by worshipping them, you are nothing more than traitors to our ancestors.

Like I said, best of luck in getting into heaven, the Arabs and Jews that invented these religions would be proud.

@afeni,

you are the most wonderful person i've ever met,

i rest my case, have a nice day, or would i say nice nite for you,

Thats right. Show us how much better you are. Afterall, you are a follower of the "true" God, amiright?

Tell me, do you come from a Christian family?

How do you feel knowing that your "love" of Blue eyed Jesus was brought to you by invaders?

LOL! I think I like this Afeni of a guy -- he's wonderful. Keep it up, bro. I'm amused by your antics. You're saying the truth to some extent, though.

@Jackie24

Don't misinterpret the bible. Let's think

Quote the bible all you want, it is misread and misleading, it is misinterpreted and parts of it even fake, some peices erased from history. I do not trust the whole bible, ESPECIALLY when given only peices of it at a time.

How else can someone be so confused?

@Afeni

No, it is not a joke. I am just spreading the truth. Don't worry, time would heal the pain I have inflicted on your love Jesuu Christo.

Best of luck getting into Aryan Heaven my "Brothers and Sisters". And while you are at it, say a little prayer for your ancestors that failed to accept Jesuu Christo. After all, they will be in hell for all eternity for not accepting your one and only.

Too much of movie watching, you've already gone overboard

"Worry ye not about the imperfections of my followers, but the threat of Al-Queda and supporter of APC"
So says the Lord.

, but the threat of Al-Queda and supporter of APC"
So says the Lord.

Which your "Lord" said this?

Ajisafe:

Which your "Lord" said this?

Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Creator of heaven and earth.
Whoever you ascribe those qualities

Ajisafe my friend, i see you've been here already.lol.

I don't believe in a potrait of Jesus, or a crucifix of Him hanging from it. I like to believe in the Jesus of my heart. For people that think the images are reminders of Jesus--how are you so sure that's what Jesus looked like? for those that don't believe the bible, i'll advise you to go and buy one and start studying it from cover to cover, because it is evident you'll be tossed to and fro, if you're not already, by every wind of doctrine. (Eph 4:14)