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Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by ektbear: 9:05pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Kilode?!:I was under the impression that women getting married later/having kids later was due to more education? Not more jobs for women? Can you link to any study suggesting that industrialization alone => lower pop growth? Eh...again, how do you know that industrialization is responsible for the lower pop growth, rather than say the family planning you mentioned? I'm not against industrialization. I am for it. But I am also for family planning. And I don't think that they are the same thing. The divide argument doesn't really make any sense...PhysicsQED's seems to one more of perception. E.g., three 60 mil pop countries looks less bad than one 180 mil country or something. But it doesn't really solve the issue. I'm also pro dividing Nigeria btw...but again, this in and of itself doesn't solve excessively high population growth. In a nutshell, the best to solve this problem is to solve it directly (family planning/birth control) rather than hoping some other indirect route also solves it. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Arosa(m): 9:06pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Kobojunkie: I thought about this before you posted this question, and the answer is yes. However, if the man in question is a drunk and a womanizer, it's irrelevant how much he earns; his children will still go to bed hungry. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by ektbear: 9:08pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Again.....nobody who is advocating population control is advocating some mass sterilization/elimination of Nigeria's population. Nchara/nanos seemed to be confused about this point, and it appears that he is not the only one. Reduce population growth to something more reasonable like 1-1.5% per year is basically what I'm saying, not negative pop growth. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Kobojunkie: 9:08pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Nebeuwa: That being said, I still think it is SELFISH for those who do not have the means to keep on producing even though they cannot provide for their children. Why would anyone want to bring any person into this world if they cannot provide for them? It is like me purchasing a dog, knowing that I would not be able to adequately take care of it. I would not set myself up for that failure. I believe it is inhumane! Pure wickedness! |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Kobojunkie: 9:09pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Arosa: yes what? On the man being a drunk, and a womanizer, well, the man Nigeria is currently ruled by 'drunks and womanizers', in some sense, but do you think the children of the drunk, who probably only get a couple Naira from him every other week, would be better off if there were two or them sharing the change, or five of them? |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Nebeuwa(m): 9:11pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
I must say that even though Nigeria is overpopulated, Africa is actually underpopulated for a continent its size. It might sound crazy, but Nigerians in general need to expand past their borders. Populate the countries that are underpopulated in Africa, especially in the Southern part of Africa. The indigenous people may be against that, but that is one possible solution for Nigerians. 1 Like |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Nebeuwa(m): 9:13pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
ekt_bear: Again.....nobody who is advocating population control is advocating some mass sterilization/elimination of Nigeria's population. You had me laughing with that statement. It seems like Nigerians believe in their freedom to procreate. It must be their inalienable right to do so. Come hell or high water you take that away from them. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Arosa(m): 9:14pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Kobojunkie: yes two kids. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Kobojunkie: 9:15pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Nebeuwa: I must say that even though Nigeria is overpopulated, Africa is actually underpopulated for a continent its size. It might sound crazy, but Nigerians in general need to expand past their borders. Populate the countries that are underpopulated in Africa, especially in the Southern part of Africa. The indigenous people may be against that, but that is one possible solution for Nigerians. I disagree on that one. Africa is not underpopulated. The problem is mortality rate is very high, compared to the rest of the world. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Kobojunkie: 9:16pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Arosa: There you go! |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by ektbear: 9:16pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Procreation is a responsibility, not a right. When you bring kids into the world, you owe them certain things. Having more kids than you can afford is irresponsible.. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Arosa(m): 9:18pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Kobojunkie: I did not disagree with you 100% |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Nebeuwa(m): 9:20pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Kobojunkie: Mortality rates do play a role, I will not disagree with you about that. But the fact still remains that some parts of Africa are underpopulated. Namibia, Botswana and Gabon are a few African nations that I feel that are underpopulated and can support a march larger population. That being said, I think there should be a limit on how many children Nigerians should have. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Kobojunkie: 9:36pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Nebeuwa: Namibia , and Botswana are AIDS hell holes. So I don't think what the two need right now is an increase in population. More like serious improvement in their healthcare system there, and AIDS awareness. Namibia has a population of 2.1 million people and a stable multi-party parliamentary democracy. Agriculture, herding, tourism and the mining industry – including mining for gem diamonds, uranium, gold, silver, and base metals – form the backbone of Namibia's economy. Given the presence of the arid Namib Desert, it is one of the least densely populated countries in the world. Approximately half the population live below the international poverty line, and the nation has suffered heavily from the effects of HIV/AIDS, with 15% of the adult population infected with HIV in 2007 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namibia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Botswana#HIV.2FAIDS In my opinion, I think Africa has gotten to a point where people are have more kids,but many of them die off, from one illness or another. So, we have tons of problems to solve. Population growth can come later. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by strangerf: 9:46pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Arm chair sociologists arguing over pedantics |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Kilode1: 9:48pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
ekt_bear: I did not say industrialization is the ONLY factor, neither did I assert that Industrialization ALONE can reduce population growth. I based my assumption on research works like these from the UNFPA http://www.unfpa.org/6billion/populationissues/demographic.htm There on the first paragraph the suggestion is clear that the more industrialized a region becomes, the less their population grows. You can read this also ; http://m.voanews.com/learningenglish/rss.jsp?id=3133&rssid=25266971&item=http%3a%2f%2fwww.voanews.com%2ftemplates%2fSingleArticle-mobiletech.rss%3fcontentID%3d83128752&cid=25228101&show=full I also read and formed part of my opinion from this article on Brazil which I read months ago, You might enjoy it. Very interesting stuff. Sample section below: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/09/girl-power/gorney-text That new Brazilian fertility rate is below the level at which a population replaces itself. It is lower than the two-children-per-woman fertility rate in the United States. In the largest nation in Latin America[b]—a 191-million-person country where the Roman Catholic Church dominates, abortion is illegal (except in rare cases), and no official government policy has ever promoted birth control—family size has dropped so sharply and so insistently over the past five decades that the fertility rate graph looks like a playground slide.[/b] Ekt_ bear, just to be clear, I'm not saying industrialization is the ONLY factor, I'm simply saying evidence exist showing that it is a factor. In American history they have a period commonly known as the gilded age when mass movement of people especially women from farms to cities for industrial labour jobs led to reduction in family sizes. You can google info about that. Sorry I'm a bit too tired to dig up scholarly research work now. Check jstor too. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Kilode1: 9:51pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
strangerf: Arm chair sociologists arguing over pedantics na lack of work cause am jo |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by DaLover(m): 9:56pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
@Kobojunkie and ekt_bear, Y are you both insisting on stuff that is not practicable or enforcable? I.E family planing in a poor under developed country? Don't get me wrong, I am for family planning but it cannot work in an under developed country like Nigeria....or any other underdeveloped country (except china...and we all know y). History and common knowledge has shown that countries that experience economic growth also experience a natural reduction in population growth....weather from USA to Asia to Brazil to Europe... its the same story......while poor countries have high growth rates and the reason is in the original post in case you did not see it.. Let me post it again in case you did not read it the first time Kilode?!: To poor people having many children is like a lottery, one might make it and rescue the lot, preaching family planing to these set of people will have limited impact...ever wonder why rich or middle class people have fewer children than poor people? |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Kobojunkie: 10:01pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
DaLover: @Kobojunkie and ekt_bear, Not saying it is going to be easy to get people to stop having more kids than they can fend for. However, I am of the mind that if China can do it, so can we. Even if Government has to impose a tax on people for each kid, I am all for it. Yes, Nigeria is underdeveloped and yes, to some poor people, having kids is like playing the lottery, but at some point, the educated beings in that country need to confront this issue head on, if we ever want to enjoy that country, and have our kids enjoy it too. However, denying the problem exists is what I am against. It exists and is reason why Nigeria may not reach any of it's development goals for the next 50 to 100 years. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by strangerf: 10:02pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Procreation is a responsibility, not a right. Well shyting is a responsibility, not a right. All I know is that two consenting adults have the right to do whatever they want with their genitals. Its nobody's business if, when, and how people choose to procreate. Having more kids than you can afford is irresponsible.. Having less bodies than the country can afford will lead to underdevelopment. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by strangerf: 10:03pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Kobojunkie: Just because you are barren doesn't mean the rest of us should live by your rules. Go get some rest Kobo, you will thank me later. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by DaLover(m): 10:37pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
@Kobo, The agreed problem is potential population explosion in the medium term, there is no doubt about that.... I take it that your solution is campaigns against producing unlimited children plus enforcing limits like has worked in only one country, i.e china My Solution is to remove traditional believes, by improving economic standards trough industrialization, as has happened in several other countries.. Honestly sha both solutions are workable but Taxing the poorest of the poor or taxing a core northern moslem for marring 4 wives and have 12 kids seams like a hard sell to me.. I believe option is a subtle way of saying Nigeria will never be industrialized. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Nobody: 10:50pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
I took my time to read every single response to this all-important issue before airing my view. I think there is one important aspect that hasn't been highlighted yet-the impact of unrestrained population growth on our environment. Rapid growth in a firewood-dependent country like ours will spell doom for our forests, since we will have to use more and more firewood to meet our energy needs (since we have failed to put our cheaply available gas to good use, hey what gives?). This will clearly abet the manifestation of the tripartite environmental evils: global warming, climate change and desertification. As for the industrialisation argument, it may, despite its apparent success elsewhere, be a double-edged sword here because some families may eventually decide that they can afford more children. It could go both ways, really. In a deeply religious country where contraception is still frowned upon and many families still believe it is "God's will" to have 15 children, I think the best approach will be a combination of the following: An adjustment to personal income tax that aims to penalise families who have more than 3 children, enacting and enforcing legislation to ensure ALL children (especially females) complete secondary school as well as legislation outlawing marriage before the age of 18. The fact is, government will need to take a much tougher stance against families who choose to mass-produce children. Our population growth must be better managed, if those of us who are alive are to enjoy life in this country. There is no other way. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Nobody: 10:55pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
Oh. . . And let me add that the erosion of our forests will eventually threaten wildlife habitat. . . How I wan take dey nack bushmeat na? Lol |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by DaLover(m): 11:07pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
HNosegbe: I took my time to read every single response to this all-important issue before airing my view. I think there is one important aspect that hasn't been highlighted yet-the impact of unrestrained population growth on our environment. Rapid growth in a firewood-dependent country like ours will spell doom for our forests, since we will have to use more and more firewood to meet our energy needs (since we have failed to put our cheaply available gas to good use, hey what gives?). This will clearly abet the manifestation of the tripartite environmental evils: global warming, climate change and desertification. @bold how? set up an agency, dedicate funds, personnel's, buy hiluxes all over the place.....please lets be realistic....how do you even begin to set up machinery to tax people operating in the grey unbanked sector? OK assume you can achieve this... how do you convince moslems not to marry more than one wife or to marry 4 wives and have one child each from each....? There is no country that has both improving economy and increasing populaation growth even lazy oil countries like Libya, Saudi and U.A.E.. it just doesn't happen. Think about it..if you are like me a middle class guy in his 30s, working in a decent oil company, you will not see any of your colleagues having 5 children? except very few....now who told them to have less children? |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Nobody: 11:21pm On Apr 15, 2012 |
@Da Lover, That was why I mentioned the need for education to be extended, especially girl-child education. Too many female children drop out early from school, and the next thing is to become the 4th or 5th wife of some randy old aboki, after which she begins to produce children like a toy factory. If female children are kept in school longer, coupled with legislation banning marriage below the age of 18, it will be a first step. The harder work of changing the mindsets of people will take a longer period, but for now we have to force the issue. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by DaLover(m): 12:04am On Apr 16, 2012 |
HNosegbe: @Da Lover, Unfortunately education is a means to an end...not an end in itself, the end game is opportunities for improved living standards, these opportunities will come where jobs are created, these jobs will come when we industrialize, Hence no industries, no opportunities, no encouragement to go to school, no keeping girl child in school longer. Look, you have to look at how what you are saying is going to be implemented, saying things like govt should enforce child limits and keeping girls in school sound beautiful and quick to achieve...you are asking an already overstretched corrupt government to do more, when people like me are saying the govt should hands off the plenty load it is carrying and focus on the difficult task of industrializing this country through policy formulation and enforcement.... |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Nobody: 12:15am On Apr 16, 2012 |
Two questions in response: 1. For an "overstretched corrupt" government, which is easier to achieve, legislation concerning the rights of female children, or hard, long investments in building infrastructure and fixing our power sector (both indispensable to industrialisation)? 2. Can an illiterate build industries? Doesn't it take someone with at least basic education to run a successful small-scale business, talkless of an industrial conglomerate? Don't get me wrong, I don't question the merit of your assertion. The issue, however, is what the FIRST step should be. Let's face it, industrialisation will take YEARS to achieve, because fixing our parlous infrastructure and getting rid of the structural barriers to productive business activity cannot be done overnight. In the meantime, however, we can enact the legislation I talked about, and start convincing families that having fewer children is in their best interest. |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Kobojunkie: 12:32am On Apr 16, 2012 |
DaLover: Well, I know we have known of this for well over 30 years. We are closer today to the break point, and we need to do something. As much as people like to hate Northerners, there are those in the North who recognize this problem exists, and try to educate the people on having less children to improve their lives and health. Yes it is a hard sell but doing nothing is no longer an option. Our resources will not be around for much longer, and No, we do not even the oil states know that there will come a time when their oil will no longer be there for them. In other underdeveloped countries, I guess one could say the solutions tried there have been disease, famine/drought, or war.lol . . Countries like Niger, Uganda, Mali, Burkina Faso, Ethiopia, Somalia , Angola etc. have some of the highest birth rates in the world. Yet, all these countries are not experiencing the increase we are. Somalia is number 7 highest birth rate in the world, but the same country has the highest mortality rate for Children. Infact, many of the countries at the tope of the birth rate chart, are at the top as well on the highest mortality rate chart. So at some point, we need to start something, or simply wait for famine/dought, disease, or war to help us tackle the issue. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate http://www.exchangerate.com/statistics-data/birth-rate/What-is-the-birth-rate-of-Somalia.html |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by DaLover(m): 12:32am On Apr 16, 2012 |
@HNosegbe There is already all form of laws for female education and child marriages...but guess what...they are not working Industrialization can be achieved when we try to skillfully manage corruption, not fool ourselves trying to eliminate it... Nigeria is corrupt but telecoms companies are working, airlines are working, Banks are working etc...all sectors the govt got out of and decided to strictly perform it regulatory functions... The same way power can work, oil industries, manufacturing etc, can work....10 years max we can be on the path to glory, even with a corrupt govt...but the catch is to reduce govt interference.....but if people like you keep insisting that govt should perform the roll of father christmass....sorry then |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by phemmyflexxy(m): 12:34am On Apr 16, 2012 |
POPULATION MIS-DISTRIBUTION....SIMPLE |
Re: Nigeria Tested By Rapid Rise In Population - NYT by Nobody: 2:14am On Apr 16, 2012 |
@Da Lover, I have already said that industrialisation in itself is a double-edged sword-an illiterate who gets a job with a living wage will see it as a licence to breed more children. Again, you did not answer my question as to whether an illiterate can build a successful business. If so, please give examples. |
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