Mr_Anony:
I want you as an atheist to logically back up the statement that there is no God

The logic involved requires you to look at "god" objectively without faith. Once you do,your god sounds like Santa Clause who rewards you for being nice and roasts you for being naughty.

Do you believe in THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN? If you don't believe in THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN, can you logically back up the statement that there is no GREAT LEPRECHAUN?
I ask this because God and THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN share the same attributes, so once you solve the riddle of THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN, you will have your answer.

Mr_Anony:

My friend, you seem to have a knack for dragging threads on tangents nevertheless we can both agree that there was pre-colonial slavery in Africa (whether sold or captured, Delta or Yoruba or whatever have you) The point is that slavery was not introduced to Africa by the whiteman.

Commercial slavery (buying and selling slaves) was introduced by the Muslim Arabs and expanded by European christians in West Africa.

However, you point still stands. White man did not introduce slavery to West Africa. However, the whitemen of the past were very guilty of slavery.

Mr_Anony:

There is a world of difference between accepted and encouraged. Slavery was the norm in apostolic times, Christianity isn't as much concerned about your physical state as it is with your spiritual state. The Christian teaching was to treat slaves as brothers in Christ. Colossians 3:11, Galatians 3:28, Philemon, 1Corinthians 7:18-24, Ephesians 6:5-9.

Slavery is encouraged and accepted by christianity/the bible. Racial/ethnic kind of slavery

"your slaves may come from the nations around you" Leveticus 25;44

Ar least, you agree that christianity accepted slavery, yet you are still proud to be a christian. Shame. The same religion that actively supported the slavery of your forefathers.

Mr_Anony:

Slavery however is not the point of this thread the point of this thread is this; I want you as an atheist to logically back up the statement that there is no God. What makes you so sure? Tell me why God cannot possibly exist.

There is no physical proof of God. None. Not one. Your God has the same certainty with Thor and Santa Claus.

I cant prove that there is no God the same way that I cant prove that Santa claus doesnt exist. You dont prove a negative

Martian:

The logic involved requires you to look at "god" objectively without faith. Once you do,your god sounds like Santa Clause who rewards you for being nice and roasts you for being naughty.

Do you believe in THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN? If you don't believe in THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN, can you logically back up the statement that there is no GREAT LEPRECHAUN?
I ask this because God and THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN share the same attributes, so once you solve the riddle of THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN, you will have your answer.

Ok for the sake of argument, what if I told you that I have heard the great leprechaun I have spoken to the great leprechaun, swam next to it touched it, experienced it, in fact the red shirt i am wearing was given to me by the great leprechaun. Now i am not the only one telling this story but there are a billion other people like me telling this story and yet you say he doesn't exist and that we are all delusional and that we are hallucinating or we are all lying, simply because for some reason you just can't experience it yourself. A point will come when we will have to ask you to tell us how you are so sure it doesn't exist.

{p/s I will respond to your earlier argument a bit later}

logicboy:

Commercial slavery (buying and selling slaves) was introduced by the Muslim Arabs and expanded by European christians in West Africa.

However, you point still stands. White man did not introduce slavery to West Africa. However, the whitemen of the past were very guilty of slavery.

Great to see that we are past this point.

Slavery is encouraged and accepted by christianity/the bible. Racial/ethnic kind of slavery

"your slaves may come from the nations around you" Leveticus 25;44

Wrong, you do realise that the meaning of Christian is "like Christ" You do realise that the old testament of the bible is not christianity

Ar least, you agree that christianity accepted slavery, yet you are still proud to be a christian. Shame. The same religion that actively supported the slavery of your forefathers.

It is inaccurate to say that christianity supported slavery seeing that those who fought against slavery were mostly christians and were motivated by christianity to abolish slave trade. Please do not imply what i have not said.



There is no physical proof of God. None. Not one. Your God has the same certainty with Thor and Santa Claus.

I cant prove that there is no God the same way that I cant prove that Santa claus doesnt exist. You dont prove a negative.

The question is how are you so sure that there is no God seeing that you cannot disprove His existence? I'll put it like this; If I said to my little daughter, Santa doesn't exist she'll say
daughter: who brings all the gifts?
Me: Daddy
daughter: Who wears the red costume
Me: Daddy
Daughter: so santa is really daddy
Me: Yes


With God of course, this conversation will be a lot more complex but the atheist wouldn't be able to answer all the questions hence I'll still be just as confused as I was from the start hence I'll ask; then how are you so sure?



{I've tried to simplify it as much as I can}

Mr_Anony: Great to see that we are past this point.



Wrong, you do realise that the meaning of Christian is "like Christ" You do realise that the old testament of the bible is not christianity

It is inaccurate to say that christianity supported slavery seeing that those who fought against slavery were mostly christians and were motivated by christianity to abolish slave trade. Please do not imply what i have not said.



There is no physical proof of God. None. Not one. Your God has the same certainty with Thor and Santa Claus.

I cant prove that there is no God the same way that I cant prove that Santa claus doesnt exist. You dont prove a negative.

The question is how are you so sure that there is no God seeing that you cannot disprove His existence? I'll put it like this; If I said to my little daughter, Santa doesn't exist she'll say
daughter: who brings all the gifts?
Me: Daddy
daughter: Who wears the red costume
Me: Daddy
Daughter: so santa is really daddy
Me: Yes


With God of course, this conversation will be a lot more complex because the atheist wouldn't be able to answer all the questions hence I'll still be just as confused as I was from the start hence I'll ask; then how are you so sure?

I've tried to simplify it as much as I can

You ignored disproving thor. Some Russian people think Santa Claus is a spirit. Disprove that he is a spirit that makes people feel loved during christmas. You only focused on the American version of Santa Claus.


As for slavery, are you forgetting that slavery is condoned in the new testament as well? "slavs obey your masters"

Mr_Anony:
Ok for the sake of argument, what if I told you that I have heard the great leprechaun I have spoken to the great leprechaun, swam next to it touched it, experienced it, in fact the red shirt i am wearing was given to me by the great leprechaun

I'll ask you to describe THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN . If you've touched it, what does it feel like?

Mr_Anony:
Now i am not the only one telling this story but there are a billion other people like me telling this story and yet you say he doesn't exist and that we are all delusional and that we are hallucinating or we are all lying, simply because for some reason you just can't experience it yourself. A point will come when we will have to ask you to tell us how you are so sure it doesn't exist.

If it's just a story and you think I should believe it because a billion other people do, I would tell you that you're appealing to popularity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Then I would do something like this

Mr_Anony:
Ok for the sake of argument, what if I told you that I and other scientologists believe in dianetics. I have spoken to the spirit of L. Ron Hubbard , swam next to it touched it, experienced it, in fact the red shirt i am wearing was given to me by the spirit of L. Ron Hubbard.Now i am not the only one telling this story, even Tom Cruise and John Travolta believe this, and there are a hundred million other people like me telling this story and yet you say body thetans don't exist and that we are all delusional and that we are hallucinating or we are all lying, simply because for some reason you just can't experience it yourself. A point will come when we will have to ask you to tell us how you are so sure body thetans don't exist.

Give me a logical reason why you say body thetans don't exist. The same reasons you come up with are the same reasons your god doesn't exist.

Martian:

I'll ask you to describe THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN . If you've touched it, what does it feel like?



If it's just a story and you think I should believe it because a billion other people do, I would tell you that you're appealing to popularity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Then I would do something like this


Give me a logical reason why you say body thetans don't exist. The same reasons you come up with are the same reasons your god doesn't exist.

Lol, at this point I'll say he probably does exist. I wouldn't be able to categorically state that he doesn't exist because I simply cannot back it up

Mr_Anony:
Lol, at this point I'll say he probably does exist.

Then prove it to me; prove the existence of THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN.

Mr_Anony:
I wouldn't be able to categorically state that he doesn't exist because I simply cannot back it up

You should't have to back it up. The person making the claim needs to provide proof or evidence, then the claim can be accepted or rejected.

logicboy:

You ignored disproving thor. Some Russian people think Santa Claus is a spirit. Disprove that he is a spirit that makes people feel loved during christmas. You only focused on the American version of Santa Claus.


As for slavery, are you forgetting that slavery is condoned in the new testament as well? "slavs obey your masters"

You keep missing my point, I can't go about disproving every character you come up with. As a christian, I have no dispute with the existence or nonexistence of santa or thor but for you by defining yourself as an atheist the statement that there is no God/gods is of high relevance to you and yet it is not really backed up by anything. What is the difference then between you and the religious fanatic driven by blind faith that cannot be backed up.

As for slavery, I have said earlier the Christian stance concerning slavery, read the passages I mentioned earlier so that you don't go quoting out of context. don't be too quick to type replies.

Mr_Anony:
What is the difference then between you and the religious fanatic driven by blind faith that cannot be backed up

That's the logical reason you've been looking for........God and gods are real to only those who have "blind faith".

Atheists choose not to have "faith" and without faith, god is nothing but a boogie man....prove to us that the boogie man doesn't exist.

Martian:

Then prove it to me; prove the existence of THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN.



You should't have to back it up. The person making the claim needs to provide proof or evidence, then the claim can be accepted or rejected.

Ok what if we were both sitting in a room and i held up a pen and gave it to you then you wrote a note and gave me and i read it then I told you that that pen does not exist but you reply telling me that you have just written with it but I reply that it is an illusion and no matter how much you protest that the pen is real, I insist it is an Illusion at a point you'll ask "so how do you know for sure that this pen that I am holding isn't real?"

Another scenario, I pull out a note from my pocket and tell you that you just wrote it but you reply that you most certainly did no such thing. but I insist that you did that even though you think you have been sitting still, it is infact an illusion and that actually you have a pen in your hand right now and no matter how much you protest, I insist my version is true. a point comes where you ask the question "how do you know for sure that I have a pen in my hand?"

The purpose of this thread is to ask atheists - especially those who make it their point of duty to bash religion - this question "when you say that there is no god, what makes you so sure?" In my opinion both statements namely "God exists" and "God does not exist" are statements of faith.

Martian:

That's the logical reason you've been looking for........God and gods are real to only those who have "blind faith".

Atheists choose not to have "faith" and without faith, god is nothing but a boogie man....prove to us that the boogie man doesn't exist.

Human beings live by faith, even for the littlest things e.g you need faith to sit on a chair and hope it doesn't break, to eat food and hope it isn't poison etc. we do not go around testing every single thing else we'll die of paranoia. what an atheist does is denial of God so as to escape whatever consequences come with displeasing Him and this brings us to the moral argument that I haven't yet responded to.

How does an atheist define his morals? who can hold him accountable? and how qualified is this judge?

Mr_Anony:
Ok what if we were both sitting in a room and i held up a pen and gave it to you then you wrote a note and gave me and i read it then I told you that that pen does not exist but you reply telling me that you have just written with it but I reply that it is an illusion and no matter how much you protest that the pen is real, I insist it is an Illusion at a point you'll ask "so how do you know for sure that this pen that I am holding isn't real?"

Are you serious?

Mr_Anony:
Another scenario, I pull out a note from my pocket and tell you that you just wrote it but you reply that you most certainly did no such thing. but I insist that you did that even though you think you have been sitting still, it is infact an illusion and that actually you have a pen in your hand right now and no matter how much you protest, I insist my version is true. a point comes where you ask the question "how do you know for sure that I have a pen in my hand?"

WTF?

Mr_Anony:
The purpose of this thread is to ask atheists - especially those who make it their point of duty to bash religion - this question "when you say that there is no god, what makes you so sure?" In my opinion both statements namely "God exists" and "God does not exist" are statements of faith.

I for example don't say "God does not exist", I say, "I don't know what a god is and going by the descriptions I've heard, they all sound like man made fantasies and that's why they have human characteristics. And when they don't have human attributes, the descriptions are so convoluted, there is no reason to believe them. If there is anything that can be called a "God, I think the knowledge is ineffable judging by just how small and insignficant we are relative to the universe. ".

But maybe you're right and it all started with the jewish nazi, adam, the rib woman and the talking snake. Personally I think it all started when THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN rode on the back of the Purple Unicorn and spread the seeds of creation over the waters of the deep while the spirit of Jehovah nissi moonwalked on the surface.

Mr_Anony:
Human beings live by faith, even for the littlest things e.g you need faith to sit on a chair and hope it doesn't break, to eat food and hope it isn't poison etc. we do not go around testing every single thing else we'll die of paranoia.

There is a difference between having "faith" that your chair is sturdy or having "faith" that your food isn't poisoned and having "faith" that your "soul" will go to "heaven". The first two are everyday occurences and you won't hesitate if you have no reason to believe that the chair is not good or that your isn't poisoned. On the other hand, I'm sure you can't give a coherent explanation of what a soul is or where heaven is.

Mr_Anony:
What an atheist does is denial of God so as to escape whatever consequences come with displeasing Him and this brings us to the moral argument that I haven't yet responded to.

Who is God and why would I worry about displeasing or pleasing him? Are you talking about Zeus or Kabezya Mpungu?

Mr_Anony:
How does an atheist define his morals? who can hold him accountable? and how qualified is this judge?

I define my morals however I want and I hold myself accountable. If I violate society's laws, society will hold me accountable. I don't need a judge.

Mr_Anony:
According to an atheist, there is no god i.e. I can do whatever I want, no one will punish me or reward me. This is why I say that atheists have no morals.

Actually, the one who bases his actions on the prospect of incentives (or a lack of) is the one who has no morals. See here: https://www.nairaland.com/941946/video-being-good-without-god#10865577

Mr_Anony:
I am not saying that all atheists are sociopaths but if there was a sociopath, he would still be justified under atheism because atheism has no moral codes or guidelines.

Saying atheism has no moral codes makes it sound like atheism is a belief system of some sort. Atheists are just individuals who do not believe in [the existence of] deities. Everyone of these individuals have their own personal moral code that they obey (morals are largely subjective by the way, as they are dependent on different factors. It is not unusual to find two atheists disagree on whether something is right or wrong). There are good atheists and there bad atheists, just the same way as there are good Christians and Muslims as there are bad Christians and Muslims. And there is no single statistic that points to there being more bad atheists than bad theists. On the contrary, practical examples and real statistics abound all over that reveal that overwhelmingly secular and outright irreligious countries (Finland, Denmark, Sweden, etc) are the least corrupt in the world. Whereas, the most religious (Nigeria, Pakistan, Iraq, etc) are among the most corrupt^[1]. This, sir, is no mere coincidence.

And that bit about Hitler being an atheist is inaccurate. He was a Christian; he was Catholic. Although you're right about Stalin being an atheist, his ruthlessness and callousness probably had absolutely nothing to do with his atheism. There are Christian sociopaths in the world today. Shall we then link their sociopathy to their Christianity?

------
^[1] http://www.transparency.org/country

Mr_Anony:

You keep missing my point, I can't go about disproving every character you come up with. As a christian, I have no dispute with the existence or nonexistence of santa or thor but for you by defining yourself as an atheist the statement that there is no God/gods is of high relevance to you and yet it is not really backed up by anything. What is the difference then between you and the religious fanatic driven by blind faith that cannot be backed up.

As for slavery, I have said earlier the Christian stance concerning slavery, read the passages I mentioned earlier so that you don't go quoting out of context. don't be too quick to type replies.

What the hell are you talking about that I have blind faith? Please, do not let me insult you? How can an atheist have blind faith? An atheist is someone who doesnt believe in a God because there is no reason/evidence to believe so. I can not accept that there is a God since there is no evidence or logical argument for his existence. Nothing on earth supports his existence. Nothing.


You christians can really become annoying? Who are you to tell me that I am quoting the bible out of context? Maybe you dont realise that I was a christian before an atheist.

The bible accepts and encourages slavery. You keep denying this fact.

New Testament for you;

Titus 2:9
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them"

1 Peter 2:18
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

Col 3:22
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

Furthermore, christianity should not be praised for stopping slavery (that it started). It's like starting or pouring gasoline on fire and then extinguishing the fire to claim that you're a hero.

Mr Anony,
what you dont know is that it is you who says god exists that you have to prove his existence. asking an athieist to prove that god does not exist is like me asking you to prove that a dead god like Thor does not exists.

while i'm not speaking for other atheists and agnostics (im a free thinking agnostic), these are the logical proofs that make me conclude that the idea of God propounded by religions CANNOT BE TRUE.

1. God (if he exists) hides himself from mankind. why is it that it is religions and holy books who has to describe him and defend him (in the case of Islam, fight and kill for him) every time. it shouldn't cost an almighty anything to manifest his existence to unbelievers in a convincing way to dispel honest doubts, believe me, all of us atheists and agnostics will switch camp quickly if he does this. the fact that he hides behind ancient religions and holy books is a valid reason to question his existence.

2. If god is all powerful as stated in the holy books, and he created the world all by himself as a perfect god, then why do earthquakes, tsunamis and tornados and other natural disasters kill and maim thousands yearly? An all powerful being would surely be able to harness the earth that he created and make it work perfectly like a good manufacturer would have done with his gadget. for me this a valid reason to question his existence

3. every religion claim they have the true God. Which of all their Gods does not exist? can you prove Allah or Jehovah or Vishnu or Obatala or Thor or Zeus is the fake or real. Numerous religions, numerous powerful beings but which is real? If god existed it is reasonable to believe that he would be the ONLY ONE we would worship. There would be no other religion or entity. an almighty should be able to prevent his identity theft and spare us the pain of trying to determine his existence.

4. The basis of any religion (thus the belief of God's existence) is that you must believe something someone else tells you is true, even though your mind tells you might be untrue and it makes no sense. it is only a brainwashed mind that will accept this form of knowledge, which is incidentally how we know that god exists

5. outside of the mind of religionists, i personally have not found god anywhere else, Allah only exists in the mind of muslims, Jehovah exists only in the mind of Christians etc etc

6. most of the phenomena we are attributing to god is now being explained rationally. e.g. our fore fathers believed diseases was caused by the gods, now we know that it just germs, so we can conclude that every strange phenomenon we attribute as god's works today will one day be explained rationally by man,

7. i found out personnally that the major reasons religionists believe their holy book is due to the fear of eternal hell if they dare to question the holy books statement (e.g. christians MUST believe Jesus is the only Lord and Saviour or they go to hell forever; muslims MUST believe Mohammed is the messenger of God or they burn forever in hell fire forever etc etc). The simple truth is, if you remove eternal punishment from religions, nobody will believe their fairy tales and irrational claims. but as a free thinking agnostic and as well as other atheists, i have freed my mind from this fear of hell and afterlife, so i dont need to believe the holy books out of fear.



are you satisfied now?

logicboy:

What the hell are you talking about that I have blind faith? Please, do not let me insult you? How can an atheist have blind faith? An atheist is someone who doesnt believe in a God because there is no reason/evidence to believe so. I can not accept that there is a God since there is no evidence or logical argument for his existence. Nothing on earth supports his existence. Nothing.


[b]You christians can really become annoying? Who are you to tell me that I am quoting the bible out of context? Maybe you dont realise that I was a christian before an atheist. Lol, isn't this just adorable? so being an "ex-christian" automatically means that you couldn't possibly quote scripture out of context?

The bible accepts and encourages slavery. You keep denying this fact.

New Testament for you;

Titus 2:9
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them (read the whole of the chapter to put it in context)"

1 Peter 2:18
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. (read from verse 11 for context)"

Col 3:22
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord." (please read from verse 11 for context)

Furthermore, christianity should not be praised for stopping slavery (that it started). It's like starting or pouring gasoline on fire and then extinguishing the fire to claim that you're a hero.

[/b]

To say that christianity started slavery is simply a blatant lie and you know it. slavery was already present for centuries before Jesus Christ was born and the emergence of christianity (slavery even existed before the advent of Mosaic law). The verses you have provided do not in any way prove that christianity encouraged slavery especially when read in context. If you hadn't purposely misrepresented those verses, this would have been evident to you as it is to almost everyone else who reads it. Christianity did not encourage slavery, but since it had to cope with it, Christianity implored both slaves and masters to live in peace i.e. Masters do not oppress your slaves and slaves obey your masters and do not revolt.In Christ there is neither slave nor master.

What the christian would say to slaves at the time was this: "it just so happens that your are a slave, please do not revolt just bear it because life on earth is not all there is and at the end you will be rewarded by God. Remember that Christ also was treated unfairly but he endured until the end therefore be strong and take heart.

On the other hand, what the Christian would say to slave masters was this: "Treat your slaves kindly and do not be cruel to them, remember that you are also a slave yourself (to God). In Christ there is no slave or free born but you are all brethren therefore accept your slave as a brother and do not be harsh to to him just because your roles are different."

I recommended to you some passages of scripture earlier but it seems to me that you are more interested in cherry-picking verses and throwing them at me. These are the verses I posted earlier; Colossians 3:11, Galatians 3:28, Philemon, 1Corinthians 7:18-24, Ephesians 6:5-9. please read them, as much as possible read the chapters as a whole so that you can understand them in the context they were written, then point out clearly to me why you are convinced that christianity not only encouraged slavery but actually started it.

Mr_Anony:

To say that christianity started slavery is simply a blatant lie and you know it. slavery was already present for centuries before Jesus Christ was born and the emergence of christianity (slavery even existed before the advent of Mosaic law). The verses you have provided do not in any way prove that christianity encouraged slavery especially when read in context. If you hadn't purposely misrepresented those verses, this would have been evident to you as it is to almost everyone else who reads it. Christianity did not encourage slavery, but since it had to cope with it, Christianity implored both slaves and masters to live in peace i.e. Masters do not oppress your slaves and slaves obey your masters and do not revolt.In Christ there is neither slave nor master.

1) I was talking about European transatlantic slavery when I said that christianity started slavery.

2) I have read the chapters. The quotes were not taken out of context. "slaves obey your earthly masters" can never be right in any context.

Christianity encouraged slavery. How can God not stop slavery? If he could stop homosexuality with Sodom and Gommorah?

Mr_Anony:
What the christian would say to slaves at the time was this: "it just so happens that your are a slave, please do not revolt just bear it because life on earth is not all there is and at the end you will be rewarded by God. Remember that Christ also was treated unfairly but he endured until the end therefore be strong and take heart.

1) So, slaves who did not convert to christianity will suffer twice?
2) Slaves who were routinely flogged and mistreated should accept the slavery?
3) It is a fact that slaves were always maltreated expecially when they slaves were doing hard labour such as building temples or monuments

Mr_Anony:
On the other hand, what the Christian would say to slave masters was this: "Treat your slaves kindly and do not be cruel to them, remember that you are also a slave yourself (to God). In Christ there is no slave or free born but you are all brethren therefore accept your slave as a brother and do not be harsh to to him just because your roles are different."

1) Yes but not to free the slaves? You are sick

Mr_Anony:
I recommended to you some passages of scripture earlier but it seems to me that you are more interested in cherry-picking verses and throwing them at me. These are the verses I posted earlier; Colossians 3:11, Galatians 3:28, Philemon, 1Corinthians 7:18-24, Ephesians 6:5-9. please read them, as much as possible read the chapters as a whole so that you can understand them in the context they were written, then point out clearly to me why you are convinced that christianity not only encouraged slavery but actually started it.

1) I heav read those passages and still doesnt help. Slavery is bad. There is no nice slavery. No man is meant to own another man.
2) I am not cherry picking. You are the one cherry picking the good parts of your bible, leaving out the wickedness of slavery, sexism, homophobia, bigotry against unbelievers and genocide. What about the fals story of Adam and Eve

Once again I will say this. The main concern of christianity is the salvation of the soul and the hope of an afterlife and not not necessarily civil rights and humanism. Hence it didn't matter if we are male or female, slaves or free, black or white, jew or gentile. what matters is that we were all one in Christ. Christians were essentially preaching that slaves and slave owners were equal before God ( Do you realize what it means to declare slaves equal to their masters in a time like 70AD? Did you really read those passages especially Paul's letter to Philemon?) This was hundreds of years before slavery was eventually abolished by the efforts of these same christians. Your bone of contention is that the bible does not explicitly say "free your slave or else" and hence it must be evil even though it says "your slaves are your brothers and are equal with you, treat them as such"

Saying that European transatlantic slave trade was started by christianity is simply rubbish. You don't have any proof of this and even though the slave masters were professing to be christians, you cannot honestly claim that slavery is christian principle considering that one of the main principles of christianity is love.

I find it tedious work arguing with you over something that is so obvious that there is really no need to argue about it. In all this however, one statement you made that seemed funny to me was this;

I have read those passages and still doesnt help. Slavery is bad. There is no nice slavery. No man is meant to own another man.

I wonder how slavery can definitely be bad to you no matter what form it appears in considering that you are a proponent of subjective morality and you claim that there are no moral absolutes. LOL

As for the rest of your accusations against christianity and the bible including "homophobia", "sexism", "genocide", and the story of Adam and Eve, I will reserve my comments as they are unnecessary to this thread and will only serve as distractions as slavery has been so far (one digression is enough already)

I will use this as an all-in-one response of sorts.

My reasons for God

1. What is commonly referred to as first cause i.e. assuming we were to take the scientific view that there was a big bang billions of years ago and that the cosmos came from this mighty explosion; If this big bang were to be the starting point of all existence, time/space and everything physical as we know it, we would essentially be saying that everything started from nothing. Now this statement creates some problems because by saying that everything started from nothing we are essentially saying that the universe came into existence with no cause whatsoever. To solve this problem, we have to acknowledge a first causeless cause and we will have to admit that this first cause has to be extraphysical(i.e. transcendent of the physical realm and hence not subject to the constraints of space and time and since this first cause isn't subject to the physical, it is very difficult to explain using physical terms) else we get caught up in the circle of what caused the first cause and the one before and the one before that and so on. Also when we look at the amount of order and precision in the universe, it rules out the likelihood of a random first cause but rather suggests a an intelligent and personal one who knows what it is doing i.e. an intelligent designer who is much more intelligent and powerful than the universe and immensely so much more beyond what we can explain.
My point here is that it is overwhelmingly much more likely that the universe was created than it randomly came into existence hence a creator. God.

2. You cannot possibly have objective morality without admitting to the existence of God. one may say that morality is subjective or is defined by self and the society and the "social contract" but then there are things that are wrong in themselves and we all know this and we just cannot justify them e.g. murder, rape etc at the other end of the spectrum are things that are right in themselves and we cannot fault them such as forgiveness, self-sacrifice etc. This makes it very difficult to claim subjective morality. A person may say "I define my own morals" to which I would ask who is to say that you are right? If I was a serial killer or serial rapist, I could define my morals as "rape and murder are good things" would I be morally right? Also what if I said "society will be my judge" then I would ask what if the society you live in is racist e.g nazi and apartheid societies of the past, does that justify racism?
For ones morality to be valid, there is need for a judge who is impartial and who is omnipresent and omniscient so as to see from all possible angles of every case as well as powerful enough to deliver fair judgement. This is where conscience comes in, this is why we feel guilty in ourselves when we have done wrong even though no one else is witness, we even feel guilty for evil thoughts when we obviously have not physically offended anyone. It is our conscience - which I would say is a much higher law than man's attempt at legality - that really makes us morally right, not necessarily empathy. Also without this supernatural judge, why conscience?
My point is that the presence of this unwritten law (conscience) in ourselves strongly suggests the presence of a judge, hence God.

3. At this point I will talk about Christianity; A man was born roughly two millennia ago who claimed to be the son of God, he did many miracles including healings and exorcisms in his authority. He was crucified and buried and after three days, he rose from the dead leaving an empty tomb and was seen by many eyewitnesses including skeptics and unbelievers. This was widely preached by Christ's disciples within days after his death and resurrection. I am yet to come across any substantial counter-claim during that period considering that it would be fresh in their minds at the time and easy to disprove. The disciples of Christ were even willing to die for this truth every one of them. One can die for the lies of another (especially if he believes it the truth) but it is highly unlikely for one to die for a lie he made up himself. Not one single apostle denied the death and resurrection of Christ even to the point of torture and death, this suggests that they must have believed it to be true. The strongest evidence for christianity is the resurrection of Christ. Christianity is based on Jesus Christ and faith in Christ is justified because He claimed to be the Son of God and proved it by rising from the dead. The meaning of the word "christian" is "like Christ" so essentially if one does not accept Christ and walk in his path, such a person is not a christian. It doesn't matter if the person goes to a church or not. I have not yet seen anyone morally criticize Christ's character successfully. No one can morally fault the principles of christianity in all sincerity.
Jesus Christ is perfect and I put my faith in Him

4. So far I have tried to explain and state my reasons for the existence of God as I know Him. Because God is a spirit and I can only worship Him in spirit and in truth, it becomes really difficult to explain Him away using physical terms and physical logic. This does not mean that he is not real, it only means that He is way beyond the physical and to try to contain him within a physical reality would be more difficult than an ant trying to explain the internet to another ant.

5. From the arguments I have laid out, I dare say that there is much more reason for God to exist than there is for Him not to. We may disagree on His nature or His function, one may even say "there might be a God somewhere/somehow but I choose not to believe in His existence" but what one cannot say with any certainty is that "God does not exist"

So once again I challenge atheists to come forward and explain to me why God cannot/must not possibly exist, else the statement "God does not exist" is simply an ignorant statement.

Mr_Anony: Once again I will say this. The main concern of christianity is the salvation of the soul and the hope of an afterlife and not not necessarily civil rights and humanism. Hence it didn't matter if we are male or female, slaves or free, black or white, jew or gentile. what matters is that we were all one in Christ. Christians were essentially preaching that slaves and slave owners were equal before God ( Do you realize what it means to declare slaves equal to their masters in a time like 70AD? Did you really read those passages especially Paul's letter to Philemon?) This was hundreds of years before slavery was eventually abolished by the efforts of these same christians. Your bone of contention is that the bible does not explicitly say "free your slave or else" and hence it must be evil even though it says "your slaves are your brothers and are equal with you, treat them as such"

1) Wow, are you not ashamed of yourself. Love thy neighbour as thyself but then you claim that christianity is not concerned with slavery or human rights. Isnt christianity also about love? Love of between fellow men/women, love between man and god and love for God's commandments?

See how you distort your own religion to say that is should not be concerned with slavery?

2) [b] Christians were essentially preaching that slaves and slave owners were equal before God ( Do you realize what it means to declare slaves equal to their masters in a time like 70AD? Did you really read those passages especially Paul's letter to Philemon?)

Wow! So christians were preaching nonsense and lies since 70AD. A slave is not equal to his master in anyway. I hope you realise that slaves were mostly unbelievers in those days and that was the major justification for slavery in the bible. For you to say that christians saw slaves as equal is nonsense. The only felt good about christian/jewish slaves.

3) Paul did not ask for Onesimus freedom. What is the difference between sending a slsave back to a slave master and a child back to a pedophile? Is there any guarantee that they wont be abused?

Mr_Anony:
Saying that European transatlantic slave trade was started by christianity is simply rubbish. You don't have any proof of this and even though the slave masters were professing to be christians, you cannot honestly claim that slavery is christian principle considering that one of the main principles of christianity is love.

1) Yes, the transatlantic slavery was both a religious and economic institution.

2) Churches supported slaver and they have apologised for their roles in it. However, foolish christians will still belive that christianity had no official role in the Transatlantic slavery.

3) Slavery is regulated in the bible. Clearly.

4) The British came in the name of their queen who is the head of the Chruch of England

5) The curse of ham and Mark of cain are christian doctrines that were used to support the slavery of blacks during the transatlantic slave trade

Mr_Anony:
I find it tedious work arguing with you over something that is so obvious that there is really no need to argue about it. In all this however, one statement you made that seemed funny to me was this; I wonder how slavery can definitely be bad to you no matter what form it appears in considering that you are a proponent of subjective morality and you claim that there are no moral absolutes. LOL

How deceitful of you. You can not debate on the fact of the argument that slavery is regulated and supported by the bible and so you throw a strawman? What I wrote in that statement is moral universalism and not moral absolutism. Go and read.

Mr_Anony:
As for the rest of your accusations against christianity and the bible including "homophobia", "sexism", "genocide", and the story of Adam and Eve, I will reserve my comments as they are unnecessary to this thread and will only serve as distractions as slavery has been so far (one digression is enough already)

Agreed. However, the accusations are true. When you feel like debating on them, holla at me for some intellectual smackdown on christianity

Mr_Anony: I will use this as an all-in-one response of sorts.

My reasons for God

1. What is commonly referred to as first cause i.e. assuming we were to take the scientific view that there was a big bang billions of years ago and that the cosmos came from this mighty explosion; If this big bang were to be the starting point of all existence, time/space and everything physical as we know it, we would essentially be saying that everything started from nothing. Now this statement creates some problems because by saying that everything started from nothing we are essentially saying that the universe came into existence with no cause whatsoever. To solve this problem, we have to acknowledge a first causeless cause and we will have to admit that this first cause has to be extraphysical(i.e. transcendent of the physical realm and hence not subject to the constraints of space and time and since this first cause isn't subject to the physical, it is very difficult to explain using physical terms) else we get caught up in the circle of what caused the first cause and the one before and the one before that and so on. Also when we look at the amount of order and precision in the universe, it rules out the likelihood of a random first cause but rather suggests a an intelligent and personal one who knows what it is doing i.e. an intelligent designer who is much more intelligent and powerful than the universe and immensely so much more beyond what we can explain.
My point here is that it is overwhelmingly much more likely that the universe was created than it randomly came into existence hence a creator. God.

1) Because the big bang says that there is a cause to the universe, you can not just include god as the cause. I might as well include Thor as the cause. You dont jump from scientific calculations and theories into magical claims of the bible.

2) Your argument is called God of the Gaps. When we didnt know that diseases were caused by germs, we said God did it. When we did not know that the earth was round it was balsphemy to say it was round. When we didnt know about evolution, we said that God created man. Stop putting God in things we dont know.

3) Your argument for God is not shared by the people who have formulated the big bang theory. These people understand it better and so, you should not remix their theory with God. It is out of ignorance that you would argue for a christian God from the big bang, when genesis contradicts the formation of stars and solar systems.

Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
[img]http://bork.hampshire.edu/~sam/extraordinary/ss%20formation.jpg[/img]

Mr_Anony:
2. You cannot possibly have objective morality without admitting to the existence of God. one may say that morality is subjective or is defined by self and the society and the "social contract" but then there are things that are wrong in themselves and we all know this and we just cannot justify them e.g. murder, rape etc at the other end of the spectrum are things that are right in themselves and we cannot fault them such as forgiveness, self-sacrifice etc. This makes it very difficult to claim subjective morality. A person may say "I define my own morals" to which I would ask who is to say that you are right? If I was a serial killer or serial rapist, I could define my morals as "rape and murder are good things" would I be morally right? Also what if I said "society will be my judge" then I would ask what if the society you live in is racist e.g nazi and apartheid societies of the past, does that justify racism?
For ones morality to be valid, there is need for a judge who is impartial and who is omnipresent and omniscient so as to see from all possible angles of every case as well as powerful enough to deliver fair judgement. This is where conscience comes in, this is why we feel guilty in ourselves when we have done wrong even though no one else is witness, we even feel guilty for evil thoughts when we obviously have not physically offended anyone. It is our conscience - which I would say is a much higher law than man's attempt at legality - that really makes us morally right, not necessarily empathy. Also without this supernatural judge, why conscience?
My point is that the presence of this unwritten law (conscience) in ourselves strongly suggests the presence of a judge, hence God.

Even the bible contains immorality worse than Nazism (eg Genocide against the Canaanites and Amakelites). Morality is subjective. It depends on the individual and society.

Mr_Anony:
3. At this point I will talk about Christianity; A man was born roughly two millennia ago who claimed to be the son of God, he did many miracles including healings and exorcisms in his authority. He was crucified and buried and after three days, he rose from the dead leaving an empty tomb and was seen by many eyewitnesses including skeptics and unbelievers. This was widely preached by Christ's disciples within days after his death and resurrection. I am yet to come across any substantial counter-claim during that period considering that it would be fresh in their minds at the time and easy to disprove. The disciples of Christ were even willing to die for this truth every one of them. One can die for the lies of another (especially if he believes it the truth) but it is highly unlikely for one to die for a lie he made up himself. Not one single apostle denied the death and resurrection of Christ even to the point of torture and death, this suggests that they must have believed it to be true. The strongest evidence for christianity is the resurrection of Christ. Christianity is based on Jesus Christ and faith in Christ is justified because He claimed to be the Son of God and proved it by rising from the dead. The meaning of the word "christian" is "like Christ" so essentially if one does not accept Christ and walk in his path, such a person is not a christian. It doesn't matter if the person goes to a church or not. I have not yet seen anyone morally criticize Christ's character successfully. No one can morally fault the principles of christianity in all sincerity.
Jesus Christ is perfect and I put my faith in Him

1) There is no proof that Jesus did these miracles
2) There is no sacrifice in a omniptent God dying (he cant lose his life). Where is the fear of dying when I know that I can comeback anaytime? How can God die in the first place?
3) Jesus was racist to the Canaanite woman. Before you say that I am taking the story out of context; If you go to a doctor to heal your child, would you be happy if he told you that he is only for the Jewish people? Jesus said to the woman "I came for the lost sheep of Isreal". This means that he did not come for her.

Mr_Anony:
5. From the arguments I have laid out, I dare say that there is much more reason for God to exist than there is for Him not to. We may disagree on His nature or His function, one may even say "there might be a God somewhere/somehow but I choose not to believe in His existence" but what one cannot say with any certainty is that "God does not exist"

So once again I challenge atheists to come forward and explain to me why God cannot/must not possibly exist, else the statement "God does not exist" is simply an ignorant statement.

Your argument for god fails

Jenwitemi: Good. Please then, explain why it is that their conscience does not prevent them from killing innocent people and themselves?

of recent, it has been shown that such terrorist take in drugs to perpetrate the evil they do. Thus implying they want to numb their conscience.

logicboy:

1) Wow, are you not ashamed of yourself. Love thy neighbour as thyself but then you claim that christianity is not concerned with slavery or human rights. Isnt christianity also about love? Love of between fellow men/women, love between man and god and love for God's commandments?

See how you distort your own religion to say that is should not be concerned with slavery?

2) Christians were essentially preaching that slaves and slave owners were equal before God ( Do you realize what it means to declare slaves equal to their masters in a time like 70AD? Did you really read those passages especially Paul's letter to Philemon?)

Wow! So christians were preaching nonsense and lies since 70AD. A slave is not equal to his master in anyway. [b]I hope you realise that slaves were mostly unbelievers in those days and that was the major justification for slavery in the bible. For you to say that christians saw slaves as equal is nonsense. The only felt good about christian/jewish slaves.
I would like to see how you back up the statement in bold
3) Paul did not ask for Onesimus freedom. What is the difference between sending a slsave back to a slave master and a child back to a pedophile? Is there any guarantee that they wont be abused? Read Philemon again, carefully this time........especially verse 16


1) Yes, the transatlantic slavery was both a religious and economic institution.

2) Churches supported slaver and they have apologised for their roles in it. However, foolish christians will still belive that christianity had no official role in the Transatlantic slavery. The church and christianity are two different things the church is an organization while christianity can be called a principle, just like a democratic country is different from democracy case in point Aparthied South Africa, Nazi Germany and Slave Trade America were all democratic but this doesn't automatically imply that democracy stands for racism and slave trade

3) Slavery is regulated in the bible. Clearly.

4) The British came in the name of their queen who is the head of the Chruch of England

5) The curse of ham and Mark of cain are christian doctrines that were used to support the slavery of blacks during the transatlantic slave trade




How deceitful of you. You can not debate on the fact of the argument that slavery is regulated and supported by the bible and so you throw a strawman? What I wrote in that statement is moral universalism and not moral absolutism. Go and read. Either way, at least we now agree that some things are simply wrong. At this I am happy




Agreed. However, the accusations are true. When you feel like debating on them, holla at me for some intellectual smackdown on christianity

Lol, I laugh in Swahili. It seems you just don't want to get it so I'll try and spell it out for you

Philemon 14-17 (Paul writing to Philemon)...... But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent. I wanted you to help because you were willing, not because you were forced.[With Paul's clout then, Paul could have easily demanded that Philemon take Onesimus back but he doesn't. Instead he appeals to Philemon's higher nature] It seems you lost Onesimus for a little while so that you could have him back forever.He is no longer like a slave to you. He is more than a slave, for he is a beloved brother, especially to me. Now he will mean much more to you, both as a man and as a brother in the Lord. [I don't know where you read your interpretation that Onesimus is to return as slave] So if you consider me your partner, welcome him as you would welcome me.[Here Paul says treat him like you will treat me, unless you are prepared to suggest that Paul was also Philemon's slave, this message demands that Philemon treat Onesimus as an equal in the very least]

The principles of christianity have remained the same. slavery is never one of them. If the church encouraged slavery, it was going against it's own principles you can accuse the church of atrocities but when you say "christianity encouraged slavery" you are wrong!

Enough of this slavery talk anyway, I don't know if you noticed but I have given plausible reasons for God's existence. I would really like you to - in view of those reasons - tell me why God's existence is simply not possible.........otherwise I would have to ask; doesn't the statement "There is no God" really mean "I believe there is no God"?

hisblud: of recent, it has been shown that such terrorist take in drugs to perpetrate the evil they do. Thus implying they want to numb their conscience.

Lies. Many terrorists caught do not take drugs Breivik and the underwear bomber for example

Martian:

The logic involved requires you to look at "god" objectively without faith. Once you do,your god sounds like Santa Clause who rewards you for being nice and roasts you for being naughty.

Do you believe in THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN? If you don't believe in THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN, can you logically back up the statement that there is no GREAT LEPRECHAUN?
I ask this because God and THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN share the same attributes, so once you solve the riddle of THE GREAT LEPRECHAUN, you will have your answer.

martian this was his answer to spiderman which you can apply to your lep...

Since you cannot prove 100% that God does not/ cannot possibly exist, what is the validity in your claim that God doesn't exist? at best you can take the agnostic stance and say"God probably exists" The atheist stance of "God does not exist" is in itself flawed.
I know you are trying to put it into some context here but then since I have not said that thor or spidermanare real or not so I am not obliged torespond, nevertheless, assuming I said that spiderman does not exist but it so happens that you've met a guy in red and blue swinging from house to house who introduced himself to you as spiderman, in fact he has spewed his webs allover your house,you neighbours and some of your friends have also said they've met him as well as some other people in your town. You tell me about this experience and even show me the webs but my response is it can't possibly be true because spiderman does not exist, the webs must have been made by spiders andboth you, your friends and neighbours and all the people in yourtown are either lying or delusional and i say this because i have not met him myself. I think you would then be justified to ask me to prove to you why spiderman is not real, don't you agree? This kinda describes the relationship between theists and atheists.

Oh I see you have answered,

logicboy:

1) Because the big bang says that there is a cause to the universe, you can not just include god as the cause. I might as well include Thor as the cause. You dont jump from scientific calculations and theories into magical claims of the bible.

2) Your argument is called God of the Gaps. When we didnt know that diseases were caused by germs, we said God did it. When we did not know that the earth was round it was balsphemy to say it was round. When we didnt know about evolution, we said that God created man. Stop putting God in things we dont know.

3) Your argument for God is not shared by the people who have formulated the big bang theory. These people understand it better and so, you should not remix their theory with God. It is out of ignorance that you would argue for a christian God from the big bang, when genesis contradicts the formation of stars and solar systems.

I would rather have your explanation for the first cause than your rants. The point here is that the universe was created and not necessarily how it was created

Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
[img]http://bork.hampshire.edu/~sam/extraordinary/ss%20formation.jpg[/img]




Even the bible contains immorality worse than Nazism (eg Genocide against the Canaanites and Amakelites). Morality is subjective. It depends on the individual and society. Again I would rather have your explanation for why our conscience pricks us than have you rant against the bible




1) There is no proof that Jesus did these miracles
2) There is no sacrifice in a omniptent God dying (he cant lose his life). Where is the fear of dying when I know that I can comeback anaytime? How can God die in the first place?
3) Jesus was racist to the Canaanite woman. Before you say that I am taking the story out of context; If you go to a doctor to heal your child, would you be happy if he told you that he is only for the Jewish people? Jesus said to the woman "I came for the lost sheep of Isreal". This means that he did not come for her.

Once again I would rather have your explanation for the resurrection than another rant, by the way, number 3 isn't a dent on the character of Christ in anyway. Whether I would be happy if the doctor says he came for me or not is irrelevant, if he came for me then he came for me, if he didnt come for me then it is what it is. If after i plead with him,the doctor steal turns around and heals me (as Jesus did) then I'd say he is very kind indeed especially since I wasn't rewarding him in any way



Your argument for god fails No it didn't fail you just tried to evade the issue by creating strawmen and shooting at them

Have to leave for church now, will continue this later

Mr_Anony:
So once again I challenge atheists to come forward and explain to me why God cannot/must not possibly exist, else the statement "God does not exist" is simply an ignorant statement.

1. God (if he exists) hides himself from mankind. why is it that it is religions and holy books who has to describe him and defend him (in the case of Islam, fight and kill for him) every time. it shouldn't cost an almighty anything to manifest his existence to unbelievers in a convincing way to dispel honest doubts, believe me, all of us atheists and agnostics will switch camp quickly if he does this. the fact that he hides behind ancient religions and holy books is a valid reason to question his existence.

2. If god is all powerful as stated in the holy books, and he created the world all by himself as a perfect god, then why do earthquakes, tsunamis and tornados and other natural disasters kill and maim thousands yearly? An all powerful being would surely be able to harness the earth that he created and make it work perfectly like a good manufacturer would have done with his gadget. for me this a valid reason to question his existence

3. every religion claim they have the true God. Which of all their Gods does not exist? can you prove Allah or Jehovah or Vishnu or Obatala or Thor or Zeus is the fake or real. Numerous religions, numerous powerful beings but which is real? If god existed it is reasonable to believe that he would be the ONLY ONE we would worship. There would be no other religion or entity. an almighty should be able to prevent his identity theft and spare us the pain of trying to determine his existence.

4. The basis of any religion (thus the belief of God's existence) is that you must believe something someone else tells you is true, even though your mind tells you might be untrue and it makes no sense. it is only a brainwashed mind that will accept this form of knowledge, which is incidentally how we know that god exists

5. outside of the mind of religionists, i personally have not found god anywhere else, Allah only exists in the mind of muslims, Jehovah exists only in the mind of Christians etc etc

6. most of the phenomena we are attributing to god is now being explained rationally. e.g. our fore fathers believed diseases was caused by the gods, now we know that it just germs, so we can conclude that every strange phenomenon we attribute as god's works today will one day be explained rationally by man,

7. The bible and the quran contains so many internal contradictions and irrational claims that only a mind that has been brainwashed from childhood can believe these without questioning.

8. i found out personnally that the major reasons religionists believe their holy book is due to the fear of eternal hell if they dare to question the holy books statement (e.g. christians MUST believe Jesus is the only Lord and Saviour or they go to hell forever; muslims MUST believe Mohammed is the messenger of God or they burn forever in hell fire etc etc). The simple truth is, if you remove eternal punishment from religions, nobody will believe their fairy tales and irrational claims. but as a free thinking agnostic and as well as other atheists, i have freed my mind from this fear of hell and afterlife, so i dont need to believe the holy books out of fear.

Mr_Anony:

Human beings live by faith, even for the littlest things e.g you need faith to sit on a chair and hope it doesn't break, to eat food and hope it isn't poison etc. we do not go around testing every single thing else we'll die of paranoia. what an atheist does is denial of God so as to escape whatever consequences come with displeasing Him and this brings us to the moral argument that I haven't yet responded to.

How does an atheist define his morals? who can hold him accountable? and how qualified is this judge?

+1 to infinity

hisblud: +1 to infinity

Sharaap, ignoramus.

+1 to stup.idity

Mr_Anony: I will use this as an all-in-one response of sorts.

My reasons for God

1. What is commonly referred to as first cause i.e. assuming we were to take the scientific view that there was a big bang billions of years ago and that the cosmos came from this mighty explosion; If this big bang were to be the starting point of all existence, time/space and everything physical as we know it, we would essentially be saying that everything started from nothing. Now this statement creates some problems because by saying that everything started from nothing we are essentially saying that the universe came into existence with no cause whatsoever. To solve this problem, we have to acknowledge a first causeless cause and we will have to admit that this first cause has to be extraphysical(i.e. transcendent of the physical realm and hence not subject to the constraints of space and time and since this first cause isn't subject to the physical, it is very difficult to explain using physical terms) else we get caught up in the circle of what caused the first cause and the one before and the one before that and so on. Also when we look at the amount of order and precision in the universe, it rules out the likelihood of a random first cause but rather suggests a an intelligent and personal one who knows what it is doing i.e. an intelligent designer who is much more intelligent and powerful than the universe and immensely so much more beyond what we can explain.
My point here is that it is overwhelmingly much more likely that the universe was created than it randomly came into existence hence a creator. God.

2. You cannot possibly have objective morality without admitting to the existence of God. one may say that morality is subjective or is defined by self and the society and the "social contract" but then there are things that are wrong in themselves and we all know this and we just cannot justify them e.g. murder, rape etc at the other end of the spectrum are things that are right in themselves and we cannot fault them such as forgiveness, self-sacrifice etc. This makes it very difficult to claim subjective morality. A person may say "I define my own morals" to which I would ask who is to say that you are right? If I was a serial killer or serial rapist, I could define my morals as "rape and murder are good things" would I be morally right? Also what if I said "society will be my judge" then I would ask what if the society you live in is racist e.g nazi and apartheid societies of the past, does that justify racism?
For ones morality to be valid, there is need for a judge who is impartial and who is omnipresent and omniscient so as to see from all possible angles of every case as well as powerful enough to deliver fair judgement. This is where conscience comes in, this is why we feel guilty in ourselves when we have done wrong even though no one else is witness, we even feel guilty for evil thoughts when we obviously have not physically offended anyone. It is our conscience - which I would say is a much higher law than man's attempt at legality - that really makes us morally right, not necessarily empathy. Also without this supernatural judge, why conscience?
My point is that the presence of this unwritten law (conscience) in ourselves strongly suggests the presence of a judge, hence God.

3. At this point I will talk about Christianity; A man was born roughly two millennia ago who claimed to be the son of God, he did many miracles including healings and exorcisms in his authority. He was crucified and buried and after three days, he rose from the dead leaving an empty tomb and was seen by many eyewitnesses including skeptics and unbelievers. This was widely preached by Christ's disciples within days after his death and resurrection. I am yet to come across any substantial counter-claim during that period considering that it would be fresh in their minds at the time and easy to disprove. The disciples of Christ were even willing to die for this truth every one of them. One can die for the lies of another (especially if he believes it the truth) but it is highly unlikely for one to die for a lie he made up himself. Not one single apostle denied the death and resurrection of Christ even to the point of torture and death, this suggests that they must have believed it to be true. The strongest evidence for christianity is the resurrection of Christ. Christianity is based on Jesus Christ and faith in Christ is justified because He claimed to be the Son of God and proved it by rising from the dead. The meaning of the word "christian" is "like Christ" so essentially if one does not accept Christ and walk in his path, such a person is not a christian. It doesn't matter if the person goes to a church or not. I have not yet seen anyone morally criticize Christ's character successfully. No one can morally fault the principles of christianity in all sincerity.
Jesus Christ is perfect and I put my faith in Him

4. So far I have tried to explain and state my reasons for the existence of God as I know Him. Because God is a spirit and I can only worship Him in spirit and in truth, it becomes really difficult to explain Him away using physical terms and physical logic. This does not mean that he is not real, it only means that He is way beyond the physical and to try to contain him within a physical reality would be more difficult than an ant trying to explain the internet to another ant.

5. From the arguments I have laid out, I dare say that there is much more reason for God to exist than there is for Him not to. We may disagree on His nature or His function, one may even say "there might be a God somewhere/somehow but I choose not to believe in His existence" but what one cannot say with any certainty is that "God does not exist"

So once again I challenge atheists to come forward and explain to me why God cannot/must not possibly exist, else the statement "God does not exist" is simply an ignorant statement.

thanks