logicboy02:
but the facts suggests that they are prerequisites

fellis:
The issue with NZ is part of why I cannot accept that statistic as factual.

Ya. Suggest.

logicboy01:

I said "correlation" not "causation". You really need to learn more.


Atheism or secularism alone does not grow peace and development but the facts suggests that they are prerequisites

sauer:
Of course, the idea is correlation, not causation. One will probably not be able to show without doubt that these countries are successful because there are a lot of atheists in them. But the truth is, one need not.
A country doesn't have to be exclusively atheist to be successful. It's just enough for the leaders or for persons in authority to put reason above religion in order for a nation to become successful. And this is why you must find a proportion of atheists in all countries with good developmental indexes. The American forefathers were religionless and could therefore provide a good life for the citizenry, though the citizens themselves might have been religion freaks anywyz. I won't be surprised if a huge fraction of NZ parliamentarians are atheists. That'll explain, to me, why they are able to come up with those favourable laws that see to the betterment of their country. So, fellis, it isn't just about the laws, it's also about the persons making the law.
Religion, on the other hand, positively ensures the wreck of any country. One thing that continuously baffles me is Jonathan kneeling in front of Adeboye with the latter's hands placed on Jonathan's head. That symbol is of Nigeria taking its national drive from religious institutions. Once parliamentary laws set out from such religious premise, we can be fairly certain that the nation itself is doomed. George Bush also proved this during his time as US president!

fellis:
Thank you for being kind of objective in your post.
The only thing that I don't agree with is the bolded. Religion MIGHT be a causative factor in bringing down a country but it is not an exclusive cause. And it does not ensure it. Countries like Chile, Malaysia and Saudi Arabia that are religious have not being wrecked by religion. On the contrary, countries like France which are secular record the highest rates of intolerance towards religious diversity and Japan, another non-religious country has a suicide rate that is probably the highest on the planet.
I believe human nature is a major contributor.
I don't think any of the mainstream religions preach anything but good. It is when people practising them decide to twist the religious laws to suit their desires that religion appears to become problematic.
Atheist nations that appear peaceful at present, if given time might begin to lose their peaceful nature because without a divine authority, who defines what is good? Who defines right and wrong? Morality is a subjective thing and my own understanding of how humans should live would be completely opposite to what a person with a different background, different intelligence level and even different genetic code would think.

sauer:
Okay, I might have gone too far, but still it doesn't take away from the fact that religion probably does no nation any good, especially when national laws take root in religious instructions. Saudia Arabia? A country where laws forbid women from driving? I won't expect the country to be listed among the world's sanest places to live in.

sauer: And the leader who changed Malaysia's fortune probably believed less in religion than in the true power of reason and will.

sauer: The present world has no more need for a divine authority. [b] Morality may indeed be subjective, but it gets no better inviting a divine authority to moderate [/b]and what secularists do is preach to people that they can survive rightly by the sheer force of their willpower and reason.

sauer: Things have been sufficiently explained. Perhaps earlier humans needed this, but certainly not modern-day homo sapiens.

fellis:
@bolded. Yes, probably. Though I doubt it. And your definition of what is sane or acceptable is different from that of the Saudis and is why they peacefully accept those laws.

A person can be religious and still be reasonable. Only fanatics disregard reason for religion.
Am not sure I understand the point here.

@bolded. I beg to differ respectfully. It CAN get better when a divine authority moderates. A lot of religions have peaceful and helpful messages for its adherents that can one way or another, help them become more moral.

Again I beg to differ. Who suffiently explained those 'things'?
And what variables were they taking into consideration when explaining them? What makes you think that their explanation is the one to accept or that their explanation should not be discarded and improved upon? And why do you think that what they explained a long time ago or some time ago would still hold in a different time and place?

fellis:
Thank you for being kind of objective in your post.
The only thing that I don't agree with is the bolded. Religion MIGHT be a causative factor in bringing down a country but it is not an exclusive cause. And it does not ensure it. Countries like Chile, Malaysia and Saudi Arabia that are religious have not being wrecked by religion. On the contrary, countries like France which are secular record the highest rates of intolerance towards religious diversity and Japan, another non-religious country has a suicide rate that is probably the highest on the planet.
I believe human nature is a major contributor.
I don't think any of the mainstream religions preach anything but good. It is when people practising them decide to twist the religious laws to suit their desires that religion appears to become problematic.
Atheist nations that appear peaceful at present, if given time might begin to lose their peaceful nature because without a divine authority, who defines what is good? Who defines right and wrong? Morality is a subjective thing and my own understanding of how humans should live would be completely opposite to what a person with a different background, different intelligence level and even different genetic code would think.

According to a study conducted by Dr. Nura Al-Suwaiyan, director of the family safety program at the National Guard Hospital, one in four children are abused in Saudi Arabia.[189] The National Society for Human Rights reports that[b] almost 45% of the country's children are facing some sort of abuse and domestic violence.[/b][190] It has also been claimed that trafficking of women is a particular problem in Saudi Arabia as the country's large number of female foreign domestic workers, and loopholes in the system cause many to fall victim to abuse and torture.[191]
Widespread inbreeding in Saudi Arabia, resulting from the traditional practice of encouraging marriage between close relatives, has produced high levels of several genetic disorders including thalassemia, sickle cell anemia, spinal muscular atrophy, deafness and muteness.[192][193]

Atheist nations that appear peaceful at present, if given time might begin to lose their peaceful nature because without a divine authority, who defines what is good?

ijawkid: Logig boy u forget that d reason why u wanna help people and be charitable is because u were made in d image of d 1 person u hate so much.....(Yahweh)...

1 corinthians 13:8-11 shuld help u.......

U love humans,u love people and wanna help them...

Where do u think that intuition came from??

By chance mayb.....

logicboy01:


God did not create man in his image. ~Man created God in his own image.

Evolution debunks the idea that man was created.

fellis: Am bored of this thread. Let's just agree to disagree.
I have studies to attend to.
p.s.
First of all, I never said religion brought peace to Saudi Arabia, I said it is present and it has not ensured the wreck of the country, afterall they are doing well economically even if they have problems with domestic violence and genetic diseases. Those things have not 'wrecked' the country. Japan, is an Atheist country with very high suicide rates and unbelievable amounts of se[i]x[/i]ual perversions and they are still faring well in a lot of other aspects aren't they?
Secondly. I don't believe 9/11 bombers came from Saudi Arabia. I believe 9/11 was an inside job (call me a conspiracy theorist if you like). Even if they did, how does the action of a few miscreants discredit an entire nation? Does the Hutaree sect coming from the USA mean that the USA is wrecked by religion?
Lastly, I never insulted atheists. I added 'might' to that statement and gave my perspective. Can you not logically understand a statement or draw deductions based on common sense? Must I attach 'evidence' to every single statement I make before they become acceptable?

logicboy01:


Wow.

Lets review the lies;

-There is peace in Saudi Arabia- False.

logicboy01:

-Saudi Arabia is doing well economically-False. Read about poverty, illiteracy and uneven income distribution in Saudi Arabia
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Asia-and-the-Pacific/Saudi-Arabia-POVERTY-AND-WEALTH.html

logicboy01:

-Japan and sexual pervesions? Can you provide proof of that?

fellis:
Ok. But my own sources of information prove otherwise.

how does that site prove that they are not doing well economically? It just shows how the GDP flunctuated in the last few years, how income is not evenly distributed and the rate of illiteracy. And for all these problems, the plans that the government wishes to implement in tackling them was included.
Besides that study was done more than a decade ago. I am not sure it is still valid.

I can but I choose not to. I am tired of this thread.

sauer: what's the thread turned to? I'd stop engaging fellis, if I were you!

ijawkid:

Evolution is rubbish...

Evolution won't make humans think of being charitable just as u aspire to be......

Ur professed ancestors never could do what u do......

Being human alone debunks evolution....

Go back to d bush and run naked and eat banana's if u believe in evolution....

If bill gates rili evolved from monkeys u think he'll be contributing billions to help less priviledged kids??

dekung: Logic and Sauer, a round of applaause for both of you. Logic am honestly happy with the way you used empirical evidence to sustain your argument. Am impressed and you have given me more information to use in my numerous discussions with people who are trying hard to reconvert me. And as for Ijawkid who claimed you, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are doing these altruistic works because they are made in the image of God. That then goes to show that some lions and tigers are made in the image of God too because I have seen from a documentary on Natgeo wild where a lion actually came to rescue an antelope calf who had lost its mother from Hyenas and have also see a baby monkey rescued by a leopard and taken to the top of a tree. Maybe God comes from a feline family. Oh my bad, he is actually the lion of Judah, well that explains it.
Thanks once again my brillian guys

ijawkid:

Evolution is rubbish...

Evolution won't make humans think of being charitable just as u aspire to be......

Ur professed ancestors never could do what u do......

Being human alone debunks evolution....

Go back to d bush and run naked and eat banana's if u believe in evolution....

If bill gates rili evolved from monkeys u think he'll be contributing billions to help less priviledged kids??

fumisko: Isnt it obvious to you that when you believe God exist you have nothing to loose. all atheist keep saying is what if GOd dont exist? and i dare to ask what if GOd does exist? if you stay without God you would loose on both side
1. suffering on earth
2.if indeed there is God at the end, then hell would be waiting for you for not believing he existed on earth but if you choose to trust him now, things will still go on well, you would even have guidelines from the holybooks that can improve who you are and so when you die, if there is God,you wont loose heaven rather than deal with the everlasting torment of hell and even if you then discover at the end that there is no God,heaven or hell, you wont be at a loss either.fine you would just accept it that way.
Secondly, did this God stop you from playing cheese? achieving reasonable and sensible things? did he barn us from joy and happiness? no. so why not have God and win either ways, you would make it in earth and make heaven finally if God did truly exist and if he doesn't, you wont have anything to loose. because if God does exist and you say he's not there and at the end you end up in hell, you would be a big fool and would have lost at last. remember God has nothing to loose or gain from us. but we have all "EVERYTHING" to gain from him.

logicboy01:


Load of nonsense. Where is your proof for God

fumisko:
Where is your proof that there is no God? Evil in the world? He faced same persecutions and so did his disciples. He also never said there would be no hard times but he said he would be with us? What if there is God? Ask yourself too not just what if there is no God.

MacDaddy01:

Hi (this is logicboy's other account)


You dont prove a negative.



Does God sit down and watch things like this happen?

If I remember clearly, God sat,down and watched Jesus his very son die for us. And why are humans so stupid to blame everything on God did God tell the government of that nation. As usual to seek after corruption and not manage their countries well till poverty looms in the land as we see in Africa today? Or did God tell some parents who are lazy to not work and watch their children die slowly. It's a shame that man never wants to take responsibility. Is it God that takes you to the toilet when you wanna use it? Or is it God that takes you to work every morning for you to get a living? No.
Anything we see, we are the cause as humans. That's the painfully part. Have you ever contributed to any organisation that has been built out of passion to help this ones Or you think it's just in saying see that poor child. We have been given sense by God to handle things like that, so left to me it's we humans that are foolish not God. Reach out to those ones tooo




[img]http://3.bp..com/-6HPUM3Up-9M/Ta3F3z7pqKI/AAAAAAAAAXM/YEw49WvpeW8/s1600/kc.jpg[/img]