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Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans - Religion (2) - Nairaland

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Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by Tonyet1(m): 10:20am On Dec 30, 2009
Pastor AIO:

There is absolutely nowhere in the bible where it says that the purpose of tithe is to do God's Work. There were temple taxes levied for the maintenance of the temple that was a different matter entirely.[/b]

Mr.AIO,

let me stand to correct your ascertion abit. Because you have not come across a thing or done a search on it shouldnt mean one should come all here to say that such a thing never exists.

The tithe you know from my understanding of your posts so far is more of the mosaic administrative form of tithing. The tithe practise by Abraham was the Ma'aser (the original tithe) and wat Moses taught and commanded the Israelites were the Bikurim and Terumat tithings, so if you're making your notions based on the later then i'll dat you read this


Tithe - The Definition:

(Tithe) (Hebrew “ma±¦´¢r”):

Is defined as the custom of giving a 10th part of the products of the land and of the spoils of war to priests and kings (1 Macc 10:31; 11:35; 1 Sam 8:15,17)The custom is a very ancient one among most nations. That the Jews had this custom long before the institution of the Mosaic Law is shown by Gen 14:17-20 (cf. Heb 7:4) and Gen 28:22.
A better rendering for the original word " ma±¦´¢r " means a standard of parting one's possession into 10 places and giving a 10th to a superior being mostly revered as a demi-god or priest to a god/goddess . It is a well- known fact that this custom dated before the advent of Abraham. Babylon was a nation/ people who performed this ritual before Abraham’s account and they called it


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The “Ma`aser”- In the time of Abraham

According to the Genesis account, Abram, returning from a battle by the Dead Sea, was hailed by Melchizedek, king of Salem (Jerusalem) who was also the priest of El Elyon ("the Most High God"wink (Genesis 14:18):

18. And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20. And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

(Genesis 14:18-20, Holy Bible, King James Version)


When Melchizedek appeared and offered Abram bread and wine and blessed him in the name of God, tithes were exchanged. Later, in (Genesis 28:22), Abraham's grandson Jacob also made a commitment to give God back a tenth of his increase. Now a careful look at this will reveal that this act meant more of a lineage tradition to a personal practise. The case is that a good scholar will tell that not all acts of individuals were recorded ink for ink in the biblos (Bible) refer to

>>>John 21:25 -  And there are also many other things which Jesus did. If they should be all recorded one by one [in detail], I suppose that even the world itself could not contain (have room for) the books that would be written. AMP.

Now if this is true, then a logical structure will show that if  (Abraham)the Father tithed then (Isaac) the son must have tithed for the Grandson (Jacob) to have promised tithe.

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“Bikkurim, Terumah, Ma'aser Rishon and Terumat Ma'aser” -In the time of Moses and Under Mosaic Law

The tithe is specifically mentioned in the Book of Leviticus, the Book of Numbers and also in the Book of Deuteronomy. The tithing system was organized in a 7 year cycle, corresponding to the Shemittah cycle (You can google this for explanation).

Bikkurim Tithe: is the custom of giving THE FIRST FRUIT as a practice commanded by God (Ex.23:19, Num.15:20, Deut.26:2) " The noun appears 16 times. The "first grain and fruit" harvested was to be offered to God Num 28:26 in recognition of God's ownership of the land and His sovereignty over nature. Bread of the "first fruits" was bread made of the first harvest grain, presented to God at Pentecost Lev 23:20. The "day of the first fruits" was Pentecost Num 28:26. Some scholars even argue that the offerings given by Abel was a tithe of his livestock (called Bikkurim) if you compare what he offered and what God commanded the Israelites in Num.18.

Ma'aser  Terumah Tithe: is the custom of setting aside a fixed proportion (Deut.12:11-. . ., Num.18:31) that is to be brought to the city of Jerusalem (The place God has chosen as a dwelling for His name), scholars believe Terumah tithe was same as what Apostle Paul commanded the Corinthian Christians in 1Cor.16:2 .Now some Christians argue that because it was not explicitly mentioned as tithe (but proportional collection) in the NT meant it was not tithe, now see it this way, when bible prophesied of a King to come, he was named as Emmanuel in the OT, when he was to be born in the NT he was named as Jesus, now can we say that  Jesus isn’t the same thing as Emmanuel since he was not announced as such?.
Ma'aser Rishon Tithe:This custom is what Moses commanded as the "the year of tithing" Deuteronomy 26:12-14 in which the Israelites set aside 10% of the increase of the land, they were to give this tithe to the Levites, strangers, orphans, and widows. These tithes were in reality more like taxes for the people of Israel and were mandatory, not optional giving. This tithe was distributed locally "within thy gates" Deuteronomy 14:28 to support the Levites and assist the poor.

Terumat Ma'aser: The Levites, also known as the tribe of Levi, were descendants of Levi. They were assistants to the Israelite priests (who were the children of Aaron and, therefore,a subset of the Tribe of Levi) and did not own or inherit a territorial patrimony Numbers 18:21-28. Their function in society was that of temple functionaries, teachers and trusted civil servants who supervised the weights and scales and witnessed agreements. The goods donated from the other Israeli tribes were their source of sustenance. They received from "all Israel" a tithe of food or livestock for support, and in turn would set aside a tenth portion of that tithe for the Aaronic priests in Jerusalem and this was referred to as the Terumat Ma’aser.

A memory lane through time will show that all nations of old practiced this act no little wonder we have the government system of tithing called Tax today. Romans, Greeks, Asian (minors and majors), the 3 American cardinals all practice tithing.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by KunleOshob(m): 12:52pm On Dec 30, 2009
Tonye-t:

@Poster,

Thanks for you act of benevolence but i think you should read this


Tithe – can it be substituted for freewill offering?

Often atimes I hear people talk of choosing rather to give to the poor than give the church their due benevolence. Let’s see how the scriptures answer this one,

Matt 26:6-13


6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper,
7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked.
9 "This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."
10 Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me.
11[b] The poor you will always have with you, [color=#006600]but you will not always have me
. [/b] [/color]

With this passages I will class the so called-righteous Christians into verse 9,for they’ll rather chose to give to the poor and widows their offerings than give to the church, howbeit Jesus’ reply to them in verse 10 will forever remain supreme.

Therefore let us give to God what is due God (Matt. 22:21), give to Caesar (beggars, poor, widows) what belong to them. In the Old Testament administrative tithing, Moses’ commanded them to set aside the tithes in the 3rd year and give specifically unto the strangers, widows and orphans. Simple!.

An error it will be to try substituting the one for the other. Let freewill offering be given as freewill offering, and tithe be given as tithe, they have different names thus serve different purposes.


It is actually heretic to be comparing Jesus with all these criminals today parading themselves as men of God. Even the passage above says it all in the later part of verse 11 which you posted. Jesus said there he would no longer be with them after a while and that was why he physically accepted the womans act of pouring expensive perfume on him. That implies that after he is no longer with us we should concentrate on giving to the poor and the needy and not criminals who claim to represent him. Jesus said clearly in matthew 25:31-40 that giving to the poor and needy is giving to him. He never taught us to give to him through pastors, preachers or the church.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by Akanniade(m): 2:18pm On Dec 30, 2009
princekevo:

How does that supposed to be a waking up?

From the delusion that the 'pastors' blessing would make u 'prosper' just because you brought a tenth of ur income to him. Widows and orpans offering is only collected once a month at the end of service after collecting love offering, tithe and selling message tapes.
Please dont get me started.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by PastorAIO: 2:57pm On Dec 30, 2009
princekevo:

Pasttor AIO, for you information am not a pastor and will never be, but i will not fail to tell the truth when need be.

What has you being a pastor or not got to do with what we are talking about? Haven't you failed to tell the truth with you equate thieving pastors with the priests of God? Where is the presence of God where we are supposed to consume our tithes? Are you not suggesting that we should keep giving money to thieves even though it is not used to feed widows and orphans etc? Do you also realise that the tithe is supposed to be eaten there in the presence of God? Which of your dens of thieves actually feast as a worship to God? Do you realise that this is a central practice of Christianity?
What do you understand by the bread and wine that melchizedek brought forth during the tithing?

princekevo:

We are debating on a bible principles here and i supported every of my statement with a bible reference which am sure you never red before calling me a liar. I gave a bible references where bible encouraged tithes and where it should be paid.
The funny thing is that after all those name callings you were unable to give me a single  bible passage where it says your tithes should not be paid in the house of God.
This is itself a lie. You quote bible references that talk about tithing the produce of the land and try to deceive me into believing that that means I should bring a tenth of my earning. That is a lie, therefore You are a liar. QED
I'll admit that I was very incensed when I was writing those posts. All that mendacity just riles me up. Hence the name-calling, yet the name-calling was not inaccurate.
I didn't say that tithing could be equated to charity giving which is not necessarily a religious affair, or religious ritual. They are different. Tithes go to the presence of God because they are a form of worship, to eat your tithe in the presence of the Lord. You keep using the term 'paying' tithe. I know you use that term to more closely tie it to money. I would rather you said 'bring' the tithe to the house of the Lord.

princekevo:
Genesis 28:20-22. 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God 22 and  this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth
Please stop preaching hereesis here on NL. And you should remove that title pastor , becoz you are nothing but a stunch Muslim. And mind you not all pastor abuse tithes and offerings.

I don't see where Jacob brought a tenth of his belongings to a stone, or even promised to do so. He promised to give God a tenth. Do you have any idea how he intended to do so? Please if you do I would like to know your ideas.
I'm a staunch muslim. So I am not a babalawo anymore? You're desperate.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by PastorAIO: 3:09pm On Dec 30, 2009
Tonye-t:

Mr.AIO,

let me stand to correct your ascertion abit. Because you have not come across a thing or done a search on it shouldnt mean one should come all here to say that such a thing never exists.

The tithe you know from my understanding of your posts so far is more of the mosaic administrative form of tithing. The tithe practise by Abraham was the Ma'aser (the original tithe) and wat Moses taught and commanded the Israelites were the Bikurim and Terumat tithings, so if you're making your notions based on the later then i'll dat you read this


Tithe - The Definition:

(Tithe) (Hebrew “ma±¦´¢r”):

Is defined as the custom of giving a 10th part of the products of the land and of the spoils of war to priests and kings (1 Macc 10:31; 11:35; 1 Sam 8:15,17)The custom is a very ancient one among most nations. That the Jews had this custom long before the institution of the Mosaic Law is shown by Gen 14:17-20 (cf. Heb 7:4) and Gen 28:22.
A better rendering for the original word " ma±¦´¢r " means a standard of parting one's possession into 10 places and giving a 10th to a superior being mostly revered as a demi-god or priest to a god/goddess . It is a well- known fact that this custom dated before the advent of Abraham. Babylon was a nation/ people who performed this ritual before Abraham’s account and they called it


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The “Ma`aser”- In the time of Abraham

According to the Genesis account, Abram, returning from a battle by the Dead Sea, was hailed by Melchizedek, king of Salem (Jerusalem) who was also the priest of El Elyon ("the Most High God"wink (Genesis 14:18):

18. And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.

19. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:

20. And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

(Genesis 14:18-20, Holy Bible, King James Version)


When Melchizedek appeared and offered Abram bread and wine and blessed him in the name of God, tithes were exchanged. Later, in (Genesis 28:22), Abraham's grandson Jacob also made a commitment to give God back a tenth of his increase. Now a careful look at this will reveal that this act meant more of a lineage tradition to a personal practise. The case is that a good scholar will tell that not all acts of individuals were recorded ink for ink in the biblos (Bible) refer to

>>>John 21:25 -  And there are also many other things which Jesus did. If they should be all recorded one by one [in detail], I suppose that even the world itself could not contain (have room for) the books that would be written. AMP.

Now if this is true, then a logical structure will show that if  (Abraham)the Father tithed then (Isaac) the son must have tithed for the Grandson (Jacob) to have promised tithe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“Bikkurim, Terumah, Ma'aser Rishon and Terumat Ma'aser” -In the time of Moses and Under Mosaic Law

The tithe is specifically mentioned in the Book of Leviticus, the Book of Numbers and also in the Book of Deuteronomy. The tithing system was organized in a 7 year cycle, corresponding to the Shemittah cycle (You can google this for explanation).

Bikkurim Tithe: is the custom of giving THE FIRST FRUIT as a practice commanded by God (Ex.23:19, Num.15:20, Deut.26:2) " The noun appears 16 times. The "first grain and fruit" harvested was to be offered to God Num 28:26 in recognition of God's ownership of the land and His sovereignty over nature. Bread of the "first fruits" was bread made of the first harvest grain, presented to God at Pentecost Lev 23:20. The "day of the first fruits" was Pentecost Num 28:26. Some scholars even argue that the offerings given by Abel was a tithe of his livestock (called Bikkurim) if you compare what he offered and what God commanded the Israelites in Num.18.

Ma'aser  Terumah Tithe: is the custom of setting aside a fixed proportion (Deut.12:11-. . ., Num.18:31) that is to be brought to the city of Jerusalem (The place God has chosen as a dwelling for His name), scholars believe Terumah tithe was same as what Apostle Paul commanded the Corinthian Christians in 1Cor.16:2 .Now some Christians argue that because it was not explicitly mentioned as tithe (but proportional collection) in the NT meant it was not tithe, now see it this way, when bible prophesied of a King to come, he was named as Emmanuel in the OT, when he was to be born in the NT he was named as Jesus, now can we say that  Jesus isn’t the same thing as Emmanuel since he was not announced as such?.
Ma'aser Rishon Tithe:This custom is what Moses commanded as the "the year of tithing" Deuteronomy 26:12-14 in which the Israelites set aside 10% of the increase of the land, they were to give this tithe to the Levites, strangers, orphans, and widows. These tithes were in reality more like taxes for the people of Israel and were mandatory, not optional giving. This tithe was distributed locally "within thy gates" Deuteronomy 14:28 to support the Levites and assist the poor.

Terumat Ma'aser: The Levites, also known as the tribe of Levi, were descendants of Levi. They were assistants to the Israelite priests (who were the children of Aaron and, therefore,a subset of the Tribe of Levi) and did not own or inherit a territorial patrimony Numbers 18:21-28. Their function in society was that of temple functionaries, teachers and trusted civil servants who supervised the weights and scales and witnessed agreements. The goods donated from the other Israeli tribes were their source of sustenance. They received from "all Israel" a tithe of food or livestock for support, and in turn would set aside a tenth portion of that tithe for the Aaronic priests in Jerusalem and this was referred to as the Terumat Ma’aser.

A memory lane through time will show that all nations of old practiced this act no little wonder we have the government system of tithing called Tax today. Romans, Greeks, Asian (minors and majors), the 3 American cardinals all practice tithing.


I thought you were going to correct my assertion. Oh dear, I've gone and given you too much credit and now I'm disappointed. I'll repeat the assertion:
There is absolutely nowhere in the bible where it says that the purpose of tithe is to do 'God's Work'.


Perhaps you could define for me what you mean by 'God's Work'. All you've done is shown what the different types of tithing were.

What did you understand by this quote of yours: This tithe was distributed locally "within thy gates" Deuteronomy 14:28 to support the Levites and assist the poor.

I'll give you the full quote:
28 At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: 29 And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.

I raise this point, not so much for your benefit, but rather for the benefit of Prince Kevo who wants to know where it says that the tithes should be brought to anywhere else other than the 'house of God'.

Let me repeat my assertion for the benefit of those who might not have got it first time round.

The purpose of Tithe is to feast people in the presence of the Lord. The meal has been set apart and is to be consumed with a pure heart and with acknowledgement of God's blessings.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by PastorAIO: 3:11pm On Dec 30, 2009
Please I want to know. What was the significance of the Bread and Wine that Melchizedek brought out. What is it's relation, if any, to the Eucharist meal that REAL CHRISTIANS eat when they meet?
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by Tonyet1(m): 4:08pm On Dec 30, 2009
Pastor AIO:

There is absolutely nowhere in the bible where it says that the purpose of tithe is to do 'God's Work'.

Perhaps you could define for me what you mean by 'God's Work'.

What did you understand by this quote of yours: This tithe was distributed locally "within thy gates" Deuteronomy 14:28 to support the Levites and assist the poor.

I'll give you the full quote:
I raise this point, not so much for your benefit, but rather for the benefit of Prince Kevo who wants to know where it says that the tithes should be brought to anywhere else other than the 'house of God'.

Let me repeat my assertion for the benefit of those who might not have got it first time round.

The purpose of Tithe is to feast people in the presence of the Lord. The meal has been set apart and is to be consumed with a pure heart and with acknowledgement of God's blessings.


1. Pardon me, perhaps i didnt quite understand you at first, yes i must say i agree with you as against by initial contrary. The purpose of Tithing means more than God's work on the context of where the OP opined. Little wonder i thought of posting it up b4 my later post

2. However i bet to differ on your second notion that the tithe was meant for the levites and to assist the poor/widows only. The original purpose of tithe meant an act of worship, inquiry, appeasement and appreciation to a deity (God)  hence the root hebrew term "ma'aser". This to me is quite different from you opinion on the general use/purpose of tithing for the levites and the poor (to feast people as you put it). For the origin of your purpose of tithe ascertion i'll say started from Moses and not from Abraham. How do i mean: The scriptures never told us that the tithe Abraham gave was given to any poor person or widowed for that matter neither was it used for feasting. Rather he gave it to a Priest, and the reason for this was not because The Priest never had any inheritance (like you think is the reason why levites take tithes) or whatever but because he stood in place on YHWH.


Hebrews 7:8
In the case of the priests the tenth is collected by men who die ; but as for Melchizedek the tenth was collected by one who lives, as the scripture says.


Maybe i m yet to understand you stands better.!
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by JeSoul(f): 4:41pm On Dec 30, 2009
Pastor AIO, lemme save you some trouble, don't bother with Tonye, the fella is stuck firmly in the folly of his "required tithing" ways.

Tonye, take a break from declaring your "standard tithes" now? try small small to post on other topics  smiley
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by Tonyet1(m): 4:45pm On Dec 30, 2009
Gat me laffing my lungs out, funny how Tonye - Tamuno has been characterised as synonymous for Tithe cheesy cheesy cheesy cheesy

Ok i think i'll start posting on other topics too. thanks for that finding cheesy cheesy cheesy
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by princekevo(m): 4:53pm On Dec 30, 2009
Haven't you failed to tell the truth with you equate thieving pastors with the priests of God?  Where is the presence of God where we are supposed to consume our tithes?  Are you not suggesting that we should keep giving money to thieves even though it is not used to feed widows and orphans etc?
.
I discovered you have no knowledge of the bible, but jst one of those who base their arguement on jst human knowlege. So there is no need argueing with you.
The word of God still remain unchange even if all the pastors on earth turn to be theives as you claim. That some pastors abuses the purpose of tithe does not give you right to twist the bible to suit your own human understanding. I have told you b4 am not that type of christain u think i am. I read the bible and know all what God demand  from me to do.If i am under a pastor and discover that he abuses the purpose of the tithe, i dont remain in the church and continue to bear grudges on him. I dont try to disobey God or twist the bible to suit my grudges against the pastor. I get out and find a true man of God who understands what it means to use Gods money for its work.
And if you think there is no pastor on earth who is a true prist of God, then you must one among those most miserable.

If the initial poster who asked the question is bearing grudges agaist his/her pastor for using the tithes wrongly and every sunday he goes back to the same pastor and sat on a chair listen to him preach, probably ask for special prayers after service. I should ask him/her if the pastor preaches with empty stomach, Does he/she sit under tree and not in a house built with others tithes and offerings, Does he/she sit on the floor during church service or on a chair bought with money?
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by Tonyet1(m): 5:13pm On Dec 30, 2009
princekevo:

That some pastors abuses the purpose of tithe does not give you right to twist the bible to suit your own human understanding.

Bravo brother, just what i have been telling them for over 2yrs here. We must have descended from the same planets. wish that KunleOshod, ttalks and debosky of a Gs could come in here to see this
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by princekevo(m): 5:38pm On Dec 30, 2009
This is itself a lie.  You quote bible references that talk about tithing the produce of the land and try to deceive me into believing that that means I should bring a tenth of my earning.  That is a lie, therefore You are a liar.  QED
Oh common, we all knows the bible talked abt the product of the land and increase in the cows and cattles, becoz that was their main occupation then. Today you are not a farmer i assume, your increase or income are not products of the land or cow and cattle, but monetary so your tithe should be calculated in money terms according to your income or Increase. So you cant say am wrong to use the word pay. If u are a farmer then you can bring a tenth of your increase from your land cows and cattles. And please the product of their land was their earnings when moses gave the comandment, which their gave a tenth, so i dont know where i have lied against by telling your give a tenth of your own earnings. Unless you are suggesting only farmers a meant to pay a tenth of their earnings, becoz their earnings are edible.

I don't see where Jacob brought a tenth of his belongings to a stone, or even promised to do so.  He promised to give God a tenth.   Do you have any idea how he intended to do so?  Please if you do I would like to know your ideas.  
I'm a staunch muslim.  So I am not a babalawo anymore?  You're desperate.  

Oh c'mon man reason with your sense. That passage said his raised a pillar for God and was called the house of God, does that meant he paid his tithe on pillar.
You really need to study more about the bible, it will help you alot than those histories.
In Genesis 35:14-15, it says
14 "Jacob set up a stone pillar at the place where God had talked with him, and he poured out a drink offering on it; he also poured oil on it. 15 Jacob called the place where God had talked with him Bethel."

Does it mean that when Jacob poured the drink offering on the stone, he saw the place literaly as a stone or the house of God? Like i said b4 their earnings then were materialistic and not monetary, so paying his tithe or offering on a stone pillar could be scrificing a tenth of his earning or offering unto God in those stone pillars. Those days God takes physical sacrifies of lambs , cows and other materials. Mind you, he saw those stone pillars as the house of God and not jst as a stone, becoz the presence of God was there. So Today most of the peoples tihes are monetary and should be brought unto the presence of God. And where is the presence of God? You can answer that.
If the presence of God has departed from your church, you should start running from there . Not remaining there and trying to twist the bible to suit the ill state of your church. I pay my tithe and by the grace of God the church uses it for what it was meant for. That doesnt mean i dont help widows and orphans as the bible preached.The word of God shall never change, even when your pastor or your churches changes
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by Enigma(m): 11:18pm On Dec 30, 2009
Tonye-t:

The original purpose of tithe meant an act of worship, inquiry, appeasement and appreciation to a deity (God) hence the root hebrew term "ma'aser". This to me is quite different from you opinion on the general use/purpose of tithing for the levites and the poor (to feast people as you put it). For the origin of your purpose of tithe ascertion i'll say started from Moses and not from Abraham. How do i mean: The scriptures never told us that the tithe Abraham gave was given to any poor person or widowed for that matter neither was it used for feasting. Rather he gave it to a Priest, and the reason for this was not because The Priest never had any inheritance (like you think is the reason why levites take tithes) or whatever but because he stood in place on YHWH.


1. How many times in his life did Abraham ever pay/give "tithes"?

2. Apart from Melchizedek, to whom else did Abraham pay/give "tithes"?

3. Why did Abraham not continue to pay/give "tithes" to Melchizedek every month (or every year if you like)?
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by PastorAIO: 12:24am On Dec 31, 2009
JeSoul:

Pastor AIO, lemme save you some trouble, don't bother with Tonye, the fella is stuck firmly in the folly of his "required tithing" ways.

Tonye, take a break from declaring your "standard tithes" now? try small small to post on other topics  smiley

Thanks for the advice.  I'm feeling kinda tough this evening so I think I give it at least one more shot.


Tonye-t:

1. Pardon me, perhaps i didnt quite understand you at first, yes i must say i agree with you as against by initial contrary. The purpose of Tithing means more than God's work on the context of where the OP opined. Little wonder i thought of posting it up b4 my later post


I can't quite make sense of what you are saying here.

Tonye-t:

2. However i bet to differ on your second notion that the tithe was meant for the levites and to assist the poor/widows only. The original purpose of tithe meant an act of worship, inquiry, appeasement and appreciation to a deity (God)  hence the root hebrew term "ma'aser". This to me is quite different from you opinion on the general use/purpose of tithing for the levites and the poor (to feast people as you put it). For the origin of your purpose of tithe ascertion i'll say started from Moses and not from Abraham. How do i mean: The scriptures never told us that the tithe Abraham gave was given to any poor person or widowed for that matter neither was it used for feasting. Rather he gave it to a Priest, and the reason for this was not because The Priest never had any inheritance (like you think is the reason why levites take tithes) or whatever but because he stood in place on YHWH.

I didn't say that they were meant for the levites and to assist the widows only.  Even the guy providing the tithes was going to eat inside as well as the rest of his family.  The important thing is not who gets the tithe.  The important thing is that a meal is had and that NOBODY is left out.  The meal is had in God's honour.  The reason that the levites are provided for is because they do not have their own inheritance. 

Please sir, you need to shine ya eye well when you read the bible again.  How can you say that the tithe was not used for feasting?  Melchizedek brought his contribution, bread and wine.  Abraham brought his contribution and everybody wacked well well.  Which is why when he returned the goods and victuals (victuals is old english for wackis)  he told the kings that they can have it all back except for the portion that they have already wacked.  He was probably rubbing his belly gleefully as he said this.
23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: 24 Save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men which went with me, Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion.

Yes, they feasted themselves well well, as everyone should when people are tithing.  If there were any widows and orphans around they would have been provided for but I don't think that there were any around as they were returning from the battlefield.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by PastorAIO: 12:46am On Dec 31, 2009
princekevo:

.
I discovered you have no knowledge of the bible, but jst one of those who base their arguement on jst human knowlege. So there is no need argueing with you.
The word of God still remain unchange even if all the pastors on earth turn to be theives as you claim. That some pastors abuses the purpose of tithe does not give you right to twist the bible to suit your own human understanding. I have told you b4 am not that type of christain u think i am. I read the bible and know all what God demand  from me to do.If i am under a pastor and discover that he abuses the purpose of the tithe, i dont remain in the church and continue to bear grudges on him. I dont try to disobey God or twist the bible to suit my grudges against the pastor. I get out and find a true man of God who understands what it means to use Gods money for its work.
And if you think there is no pastor on earth who is a true prist of God, then you must one among those most miserable.


Sir, I called you a liar and I laid out point by point the reasons why I said so.
Could you please return me the favour and explain to me where I have demonstrated a lack of knowledge of the bible? Could you show me where I have argued from human knowledge? I would truly appreciate it. Thank you.


princekevo:

Oh common, we all knows the bible talked abt the product of the land and increase in the cows and cattles, becoz that was their main occupation then. Today you are not a farmer i assume, your increase or income are not products of the land or cow and cattle, but monetary so your tithe should be calculated in money terms according to your income or Increase. So you cant say am wrong to use the word pay. If u are a farmer then you can bring a tenth of your increase from your land cows and cattles. And please the product of their land was their earnings when moses gave the comandment, which their gave a tenth, so i dont know where i have lied against by telling your give a tenth of your own earnings. Unless you are suggesting only farmers a meant to pay a tenth of their earnings, becoz their earnings are edible.


This is another lie. Do you make these up yourself or are you just passing them on? There were many occupations in those days and not everyone was a farmer. It is not true that Hebrew society had no currencies at the time Tithing was introduced. In fact they did and there were monetary taxes that they were required to pay. These taxes were a Fixed rate tax and not a percentile tax like the Tithe (10 per cent).

"When you take a census of the sons of Israel to number them, then each one of them shall give a ransom for himself to the LORD, when you number them, so that there will be no plague among them when you number them.
This is what everyone who is numbered shall give: half a shekel according to the shekel of the sanctuary (the shekel is twenty gerahs), half a shekel as a contribution to the LORD.
Everyone who is numbered, from twenty years old and over, shall give the contribution to the LORD.
The rich shall not pay more and the poor shall not pay less than the half shekel, when you give the contribution to the LORD to make atonement for yourselves.
"You shall take the atonement money from the sons of Israel and shall give it for the service of the tent of meeting, that it may be a memorial for the sons of Israel before the LORD, to make atonement for yourselves."
Exodus Chapter 30.

Tithing and making monetary payments to the temple were two different affairs altogether. Even up to the time of Jesus the was still a fixed rate tax payable by all Jews. It was called the Disdrachma.

I repeat they had money. It was a monetary society and they paid for the upkeep of the temple and for 'god's work'. Provisions were made for that. Tithing was a different matter altogether.

If you will insist of perverting God's word then that's your own wahala, but I'll correct you in case anyone reading gets deceived by your lies. There are others here too who will not let you get away with it. I know your plan. You're trying to divert people away from salvation by throwing the distraction of fake tithing as a valid religious practice when it is not. Why are you so bent on deception?
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by PastorAIO: 12:57am On Dec 31, 2009
princekevo:


Oh c'mon man reason with your sense. That passage said his raised a pillar for God and was called the house of God, does that meant he paid his tithe on pillar.
You really need to study more about the bible, it will help you alot than those histories.
In Genesis 35:14-15, it says
14 "Jacob set up a stone pillar at the place where God had talked with him, and he poured out a drink offering on it; he also poured oil on it. 15 Jacob called the place where God had talked with him Bethel."

Does it mean that when Jacob poured the drink offering on the stone, he saw the place literaly as a stone or the house of God? Like i said b4 their earnings then were materialistic and not monetary, so paying his tithe or offering on a stone pillar could be scrificing a tenth of his earning or offering unto God in those stone pillars. Those days God takes physical sacrifies of lambs , cows and other materials. Mind you, he saw those stone pillars as the house of God and not jst as a stone, becoz the presence of God was there. So Today most of the peoples tihes are monetary and should be brought unto the presence of God. And where is the presence of God? You can answer that.
If the presence of God has departed from your church, you should start running from there . Not remaining there and trying to twist the bible to suit the ill state of your church. I pay my tithe and by the grace of God the church uses it for what it was meant for. That doesnt mean i dont help widows and orphans as the bible preached.The word of God shall never change, even when your pastor or your churches changes
Oh c'mon man reason with your sense.
If you don't mind, I'll continue to reason with my Reasoning faculties and not with my senses.

Again, You need to know that they did have money in those days. and furthermore a vial of oil and a bottle of drink did not make up a 10th of Jacob's possessions. Thirdly, Jacob made the promise to tithe after he returned to his father's house. He poured the libation and oil as he still continued to set off on his journey.
It seems that your mind is so benighted with dark influences that your basic english comprehension skills are being compromised.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by princekevo(m): 7:05am On Dec 31, 2009
Pastor AIO:

If you don't mind, I'll continue to reason with my Reasoning faculties and not with my senses.

Again, You need to know that they did have money in those days. and furthermore a vial of oil and a bottle of drink did not make up a 10th of Jacob's possessions. Thirdly, Jacob made the promise to tithe after he returned to his father's house. He poured the libation and oil as he still continued to set off on his journey.
It seems that your mind is so benighted with dark influences that your basic english comprehension skills are being compromised.
I discovered even when the truth is being exposed to you, you find a ways to esacpe it. Only the truth will set you free my fren. You asked me to show where Jocab paid tithe or offerings on a stone pillar i showed you a passage where he poured a drink offering on a stone pillar, where called the house of God. If your reason with your faculties as you claimed, you should be able to know that Jacob paid his vow of tithe to God, though bible never gave account it. To where did he pay the vow(tithe)? If he gave an offering at Bethel( house of God). Common sense should have told you that he also paid his vow in the house of God. Jacob set so many stone pillars on his journeyand these where places he expirienced the presence of God, and where God spoke to him directly. He called them the house of and made sacrifies to God on those places. So if Jacob did all that in a place he called the house of God. Why would you come on NL here to discourage people from bringing their tithes and offerings into the house of God, just becoz you think some pastors are theives and abuse the purpose of tithes and offering.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by princekevo(m): 7:41am On Dec 31, 2009
Tithing and making monetary payments to the temple were two different affairs altogether.  Even up to the time of Jesus the was still a fixed rate tax payable by all Jews.  It was called the Disdrachma.

I repeat they had money.  It was a monetary society and they paid for the upkeep of the temple and for 'god's work'.  Provisions were made for that.  Tithing was a different matter altogether.

I never said they were no money then, When i said they were farmers , i meant majority of them were farmers, unlike today, as you know the tribes of Levi never worked nor farmed. I cant come here on NL and be talking with you as if am lecturing a 5 year old kid. You said you have faculties, so reason with them as an adult and as someone who have opened the bible for once.

You said tithing was never monetary payment. I will expose you again since you have little knowledge of the bible.
In Deutronomy 14: 24-25 it says " 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.

The funny thing is that you picked only vs 26, when u spoke abt how tithe should be used, which i never argued with you and suddenly you condenmed verse 24 and 25, is this intentional or out of ignorance?
I asked you one simple question you never answered. You claimed the principles of tithing was meant for only the farmers who had materials as income, increase and not for you who have monetary income. Are you suggesting that civil servants, business men and all the people who have monetary income are not supposed to pay their tithe. An answer to this question will gave me the understanding of you knowledge of the bible.

Meanwhile i never force or mandated anyone to pay his/her tithe, coz is between you and your God. Infact the bible said if your right hand is giving a tithe or offering, your left hand should not know abt it. So it is not in my capacity or any pastor to force you to pay tithe or offering. They will only encourage you on the right thing to do, the final decision lies in your hands and your God. But what i would never tolorate is people like you coming  on NL to spread heresis to discourage those who has been faithful to God with their tithes. That is why i have engaged with u in these long arguement. Like i said before i pay my tithe and i always expirience his blessing for that, jst as he promised me in the book of Malachai.
That is one thing i love abt God, he deals with us individualy and not in group. he deals with me according to my faitfulness to him. So you can chose not to pay your tithe, fine, no one will arrest you in the church, those who kept on being faithful with their tithing knows why they remain faithful. So Have a good Day bro.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by KunleOshob(m): 8:51am On Dec 31, 2009
@Princekevo
It is funny you accuse some people of twisting scriptures to suit themselves whilst you hold on to the twisted definition and pupose of tithes as practised by the mordern church contrary to the biblical one which was thouroughly defined and explained in deuteronomy 14:22-29. I am aware you have read that passage cos you deliberately quoted verse 25 in that passage out of context conviniently ignoring verse 26 which stated the tither should use the money to buy whatever food item he wants, including wine and other alcoholic drink and eat in the presence of God. The passage NEVER said the tither should handover the money to the levites. I had initially thought from your previous posts that you were geniunely ignorant about the truth about tithes and the scriptural manipulation the church did to arrive at the type of heretic tithing being used to scam christians today, but from your deliberately quoting deuteronomy 25 out of context to manipulate readers on this forum i now know other wise. Anyway for your benefit and others i would repost the passage here for all to see. Also note that the passage perfectly defines what tithes is and how it shouild be practised. I now want you to compare and contrast the practise of tithing then with the twisted version being done today. You also came up with the over recycled deluded excuse that tithes was paid with money then becos it was an agrarian society, this we know is not true as PastorAIO as already proven that money was being widely used then and deuteronomy 25-26 also implies that money was not a tithable item as tithes was meant to be eaten in the presence of God. I need you to explain to us why we should not eat our tithes as the bible clearly directs and instead go against clear biblical injunctions by changing the definition to money and giving it exclusively to the church. Below is deuteronomy 14:22-29 for the perusal of all, you then decide if the heresy being practised in churches today is scriptural or twisted.

Deuteronomy 14:22-29:

The Giving of Tithes

22 “You must set aside a tithe of your crops—one-tenth of all the crops you harvest each year. 23 Bring this tithe to the designated place of worship—the place the Lord your God chooses for his name to be honored—and eat it there in his presence. This applies to your tithes of grain, new wine, olive oil, and the firstborn males of your flocks and herds. Doing this will teach you always to fear the Lord your God.

24 “Now when the Lord your God blesses you with a good harvest, the place of worship he chooses for his name to be honored might be too far for you to bring the tithe. 25[b] If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds, put the money in a pouch, and go to the place the Lord your God has chosen. 26 When you arrive, you may use the money to buy any kind of food you want—cattle, sheep, goats, wine, or other alcoholic drink. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household[/b]. 27 And do not neglect the Levites in your town, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.

28 “At the end of every third year, bring the entire tithe of that year’s harvest and store it in the nearest town. 29 Give it to the Levites, who will receive no allotment of land among you, as well as to the foreigners living among you, the orphans, and the widows in your towns, so they can eat and be satisfied. Then the Lord your God will bless you in all your work.


Verse 28 makes it clear that the tithes for the levites is to be done every third year and from that year's harvest alone, also it states that the tither should also give out of the tithes to the foreigners, orphans and widows so they can eat and God shall bless the work of the tither. In the light of the above kindly explain or show scriptures which changes the above injunction from once in three years to monthly and also that which changes it from foodstuff to be eaten by the listed people to the money being collected exclusively for the church if not for twisted scripture which you accused others of.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by PastorAIO: 12:06pm On Dec 31, 2009
JeSoul:

Pastor AIO, lemme save you some trouble, don't bother with Tonye, the fella is stuck firmly in the folly of his "required tithing" ways.

Tonye, take a break from declaring your "standard tithes" now? try small small to post on other topics  smiley

Jesoul, this is not fair! You warned me about Tonye-T but then you allowed me to walk right into PrinceKevo with my guard down. You set me up! I'll get you back for this. grin

princekevo:

I discovered even when the truth is being exposed to you, you find a ways to esacpe it. Only the truth will set you free my fren.[b] You asked me to show where Jocab paid tithe or offerings on a stone pillar [/b]i showed you a passage where he poured a drink offering on a stone pillar, where called the house of God. If your reason with your faculties as you claimed, you should be able to know that Jacob paid his vow of tithe to God, though bible never gave account it. To where did he pay the vow(tithe)? If he gave an offering at Bethel( house of God). Common sense should have told you that he also paid his vow in the house of God. Jacob set so many stone pillars on his journeyand these where places he expirienced the presence of God, and where God spoke to him directly. He called them the house of and made sacrifies to God on those places. So if Jacob did all that in a place he called the house of God. Why would you come on NL here to discourage people from bringing their tithes and offerings into the house of God, just becoz you think some pastors are theives and abuse the purpose of tithes and offering.


Have you met Olabowale? I think you two will get on. But that apart, you continue to spout lies, lies, and more lies.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8: 44

I didn't say anything about offerings. Where did you get that from, Satan? We are talking about tithes. I asked you to show me where it said that Jacob paid tithes. I mentioned nothing of offerings. It seems that you are so desperate to do your father's work that you are now clasping at straws. There is only one place in Israel called Bethel and that is the place Jacob raised the stone. Please I'm learning here too, along with everybody, if indeed Jacob raised many stones and called the places Bethel show it to me in the bible.

I used to be accused of not quoting enough bible on Nairaland. It seems though that as soon as I start quoting bible people like you discard your bibles and start to rely on pure invention. Of course you've always relied on invention but it is only that before you pretended it was biblical by twisting scriptures but now you've moved on to the point where you are not even bothering with the bible at all.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by PastorAIO: 12:23pm On Dec 31, 2009
princekevo:

I never said they were no money then, When i said they were farmers , i meant majority of them were farmers, unlike today, as you know the tribes of Levi never worked nor farmed. I cant come here on NL and be talking with you as if am lecturing a 5 year old kid. You said you have faculties, so reason with them as an adult and as someone who have opened the bible for once.

You said tithing was never monetary payment. I will expose you again since you have little knowledge of the bible.
In Deutronomy 14: 24-25 it says " 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.

The funny thing is that you picked only vs 26, when u spoke abt how tithe should be used, which i never argued with you and suddenly you condenmed verse 24 and 25, is this intentional or out of ignorance?
I asked you one simple question you never answered. You claimed the principles of tithing was meant for only the farmers who had materials as income, increase and not for you who have monetary income. Are you suggesting that civil servants, business men and all the people who have monetary income are not supposed to pay their tithe. An answer to this question will gave me the understanding of you knowledge of the bible.

Meanwhile i never force or mandated anyone to pay his/her tithe, coz is between you and your God. Infact the bible said if your right hand is giving a tithe or offering, your left hand should not know abt it.

Sorry for thinking like a 5 year old kid. I would try to be more mature as you advise but I have heard on good authority that that is the way to be in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven. I'll take Jesus' word before I take yours, thanks for offering though.

and as for this . . .

You said tithing was never monetary payment. I will expose you again since you have little knowledge of the bible.
In Deutronomy 14: 24-25 it says " 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the LORD your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the LORD will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the LORD your God will choose.
. . . I believe that KunleOshob has dealt with it adequately. I just want to add that while he thought you were simply misguided and ignorant I saw you for what you are from the very outset. One with your Father in whom there is no truth.
Civil servants and those who do not work the land do not 'pay' tithes, but they eat tithes. The farmers bring a tenth of their crops and everybody, and by that I mean everybody, partakes in the eating of the tithe. And the ritual is based on the EATING part not on the contribution part.

And as regards the left hand knowing what the right hand is doing, you are again twisting the bible. The statement refers to the giving of alms to the poor, not to making offerings to God or Tithing.
3But when you give to the poor, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be done in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.”[a]2
Matt 6

Please if there are any more quotations from the bible that you want to twist. Bring them here and I'll re-align them for you.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by princekevo(m): 2:40pm On Dec 31, 2009
I never wanted to comment on this anymore, but i need to reply some accusations here.
@ kunle oshob.
Lets not diviate from the topic.
The question was not how the tithe is supposed to be consumed. But the right place and medium to pay your tithe.
If you tell me Tithe was only meant for consumption then you are liar.
Bible mentioned so many purposes the tight should use for, which summarized in into 3 if ever you red my previouse post. I never argued with the fact tight is meant for consumption in the presence of God. God back to my previouse comments. In fact it was cleared in malachai 3:10 "Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
But my arguement with the so called Pastor AIO was based on 2 things.

1. All tithe is meant only for consumption in the presence of God.( if all tithe are meant for consumption in the presence of God which one goes to the levites, for them to pay their tithe of tights to the prist? which one is being used to help the strangers and the ophans as the book of Duet said?). The only thing i have been able to estblished here based on the original question, is that, tithes was never consumed based on individual decision jst as the original poster try to chanel his tight to ophans and widows. There was a specific place where God instructed to bring you tight to b4 it can be used for any purpose you have mentioned, which is the house of God.
In Malachi it says my store house . In the place you quoted in 24 “Now when the Lord your God blesses you with a good harvest, the place of worship he chooses for his name to be honored might be too far for you to bring the tithe. 25 If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds, put the money in a pouch, and go to the place the Lord your God has chosen. 26 When you arrive, you may use the money to buy any kind of food you want—cattle, sheep, goats, wine, or other alcoholic drink. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household. 27 And do not neglect the Levites in your town, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.
If you people still insist tithe was meant only for consumption in the presence of God i would like you guys to explain the following passage to the public. Nehemiah 10:38-39 (New International Version)
38 A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God, to the storerooms of the treasury. 39 The people of Israel, including the Levites, are to bring their contributions of grain, new wine and oil to the storerooms where the articles for the sanctuary are kept and where the ministering priests, the gatekeepers and the singers stay.
"We will not neglect the house of our God."


2. tithe was only material and never monetary. (Am still waiting to get any passage from the bible that stated that). All the passages where this law was giving by moses, there was never an exeception. Even the levites that were not farmers god mandated them to pay their tithes from the tithes the get from other tribes of isreal. This is my first time to hear that tithe was limited to some people. meaning those with monetary income are not supposed to pay tithe, but to consume from others tithe, becoz they are farmers. Who be monkey then and who be baboo ? what a heresy?
In Malachai 3. the bible used the word the whole nation. there was never an exception, both the farmers and non farmers. This law came to the whole isrealites as a nation. Non was exempted, Why are you people coming on NL to spread heresis that the Tithing is only meant for people who can bring something consumerable in the presence of God. So if am a farmer and you are a banker , businessman of civil servant, at the end of every year, i will bring a tent of my land and animal increase, which is my own income for the year for us to consume in the presence of God, while you bank yours, coz your income is monetary. I ask again who be monkey and who be baboo? So you think God is so stupid to make such partial monkey-baboo business exist in his presence or his house.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by ogajim(m): 3:11pm On Dec 31, 2009
@OP, You are on the right track bro and we hope a lot of folks will wake up from this fallacy perpetuated by PIMPING GOMs to finance their lifestyle.

How hilarious is it that anytime tonye-tithe gets beaten down in his own thread about this unholy practice, he goes off to Greece looking for ancient but unjustified scrolls

Jesus Christ fulfilled any requirement of the law for us by his death on the Cross and these PIMPs are only out to deceive the gullible flock that look up to them for guidance, how come I haven't seen any "storehouse" in any Church I've attended? Malachi was addressing the Levites and not gentiles in that famous quote they love so much to make the flock feel guilty and part with their hard earned CASH.
Their days are number because this SCAM must be stopped, LOVE is the greatest of all not MONEY but how would they afford the lifestyle if they preach what is right-freewill offering?
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by princekevo(m): 3:34pm On Dec 31, 2009
I didn't say anything about offerings.  Where did you get that from, Satan?  We are talking about tithes.  I asked you to show me where it said that Jacob paid tithes.
Ok fine there was never a place it was recorded that Jacob paid his tithe, but i cant believe am arguing with some who have a lil knowledge of the bible.
In Genesis 28: 20- 22.
20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear 21 so that I return safely to my father's house, then the LORD will be my God 22 and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth(Tithe)."

Please with all your bible and theological expirience ( if any). Do you mean he never kept these vows to God, becoz bible never recorded it?
Please I'm learning here too, along with everybody, if indeed Jacob raised many stones and called the places Bethel show it to me in the bible.
Please quote me right, this was my initia comment , Jacob set so many stone pillars on his journeyand these where places he expirienced the presence of God, and where God spoke to him directly.
and is not the same with your statement here if indeed Jacob raised many stones and called the places Bethel show it to me in the bible.. Am not sure this was a mistake, neither do you have problem with understanding, but you intentionally twisted my words to suit your case of arguements. So if you can twist my word to suit your case of arguement, am not suprised why you are twisting the word of God.

To support my initial comments, he raised the a stone pillar twice at the same place, one was on his way going Genesis28:18-19 and on his way back, he raised another stone pillar at the same place when he was running aways from his brother Esua Genesis 35:14-15. So please next time always quote me right.
In the same Genesis31:45. he raised another stone pillar where he took an oath with his father inlaw, in the name of God and called the place Galeed. So waiting you to prove me wrong when i said Jacob raised many Stone pillars on his journey.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by KunleOshob(m): 3:38pm On Dec 31, 2009
princekevo:

2. tithe was only material and never monetary. (Am still waiting to get any passage from the bible that stated that). All the passages where this law was giving by moses, there was never an exeception. Even the levites that were not farmers god mandated them to pay their tithes from the tithes the get from other tribes of isreal. This is my first time to hear that tithe was limited to some people. meaning those with monetary income are not supposed to pay tithe, but to consume from others tithe, becoz they are farmers. Who be monkey then and who be baboo ? what a heresy?
In Malachai 3. the bible used the word the whole nation. there was never an exception, both the farmers and non farmers. This law came to the whole isrealites as a nation. Non was exempted, Why are you people coming on NL to spread heresis that the Tithing is only meant for people who can bring something consumerable in the presence of God. So if am a farmer and you are a banker , businessman of civil servant, at the end of every year, i will bring a tent of my land and animal increase, which is my own income for the year for us to consume in the presence of God, while you bank yours, coz your income is monetary. I ask again who be monkey and who be baboo? So you think God is so silly to make such partial monkey-baboo business exist in his presence or his house.

In reference to the highlighted above,  it is you who should show us from scripture were tithes is described as money. The bible is clear that it is only those that produced from the land that were required to tithe from their produce and nobody else. i am sure you know it is wrong to add or subtract from the word of God talkless of twist it as is being doen to justify this tithing scam. Also even though in those days most people were farmers most famers had other vocations as farming is not a full time or year round vocation. Even up till today in most agrarian communities farmers have other Jobs they do in between planting and harvesting season were they made income from like in those days. They were never asked to tithe from this extra income, just what they produced from the land of Israel that God personally gave and shared amongst them. That apart i am sure that you are aware that the levite tithes was done once in three years, the yearly tithes was consumed by the tither and monthly/ weekly monetary tithes we practises lacks biblical basis. Before we continue arguing too much on this obsolete and defunct practise of biblical tithes which your pastors twist for the sake of filthy lucre, you may not be aware that the practise of tithing was clearlly annulled for christians and described as weak, useless and unprofitable in the book of hebrew.

PS: You are yet to address a single one of the posers i raised in my previous thread. I am still waiting if you have any substance to post.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by KunleOshob(m): 3:49pm On Dec 31, 2009
@princekevo
For your benefit i have decided to post the hebrew scriptures which condenm tithing so you can benefit from it. But knowing that you are dliberately ignorant about the truths that relate to tithing you might just ignore it.

Hebrews 7:5-19:

5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Kindly note that it is the commandment to takes tithes mentioned in verse 5 that was changed in verse 12, anulled and described as weak and unprofitable in verse 18. Please make sure you read the whole chapter to get the full context of the scripture. grin
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by PastorAIO: 4:10pm On Dec 31, 2009
princekevo:

I never wanted to comment on this anymore, but i need to reply some accusations here.
@ kunle oshob.
Lets not diviate from the topic.
The question was not how the tithe is supposed to be consumed. But the right place and medium to pay your tithe.
If you tell me Tithe was only meant for consumption then you are liar.
[/b]Bible mentioned so many purposes the tight should use for, which summarized in into 3 if ever you red my previouse post. I never argued with the fact tight is meant for consumption in the presence of God. God back to my previouse comments. In fact it was cleared in malachai 3:10 "Bring the whole [b]tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house.
Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
But my arguement with the so called Pastor AIO was based on 2 things.

1. All tithe is meant only for consumption in the presence of God.( if all tithe are meant for consumption in the presence of God which one goes to the levites, for them to pay their tithe of tights to the prist? which one is being used to help the strangers and the ophans as the book of Duet said?). The only thing i have been able to estblished here based on the original question, is that, tithes was never consumed based on individual decision jst as the original poster try to chanel his tight to ophans and widows. There was a specific place where God instructed to bring you tight to b4 it can be used for any purpose you have mentioned, which is the house of God.
In Malachi it says my store house . In the place you quoted in    24 “Now when the Lord your God blesses you with a good harvest, the place of worship he chooses for his name to be honored might be too far for you to bring the tithe. 25 If so, you may sell the tithe portion of your crops and herds, put the money in a pouch, and go to the place the Lord your God has chosen. 26 When you arrive, you may use the money to buy any kind of food you want—cattle, sheep, goats, wine, or other alcoholic drink. Then feast there in the presence of the Lord your God and celebrate with your household. 27 And do not neglect the Levites in your town, for they will receive no allotment of land among you.
If you people still insist tithe was meant only for consumption in the presence of God i would like you guys to explain the following passage to the public. Nehemiah 10:38-39 (New International Version)
38 A priest descended from Aaron is to accompany the Levites when they receive the tithes, and the Levites are to bring a tenth of the tithes up to the house of our God,  to the storerooms of the treasury. 39 The people of Israel, including the Levites, are to bring their contributions of grain, new wine and oil to the storerooms where the articles for the sanctuary are kept and where the ministering priests, the gatekeepers and the singers stay.
"We will not neglect the house of our God."


2. tithe was only material and never monetary. (Am still waiting to get any passage from the bible that stated that). All the passages where this law was giving by moses, there was never an exeception. Even the levites that were not farmers god mandated them to pay their tithes from the tithes the get from other tribes of isreal. This is my first time to hear that tithe was limited to some people. meaning those with monetary income are not supposed to pay tithe, but to consume from others tithe, becoz they are farmers. Who be monkey then and who be baboo ? what a heresy?
In Malachai 3. the bible used the word the whole nation. there was never an exception, both the farmers and non farmers. This law came to the whole isrealites as a nation. Non was exempted, Why are you people coming on NL to spread heresis that the Tithing is only meant for people who can bring something consumerable in the presence of God. So if am a farmer and you are a banker , businessman of civil servant, at the end of every year, i will bring a tent of my land and animal increase, which is my own income for the year for us to consume in the presence of God, while you bank yours, coz your income is monetary. I ask again who be monkey and who be baboo? So you think God is so silly to make such partial monkey-baboo business exist in his presence or his house.

Okay, Point by point.  This thread is about where to tithe and not what to tithe, although it is clear that your distortions of the whole tithe affair have further complicated the matter because what does it matter where you do it if you are doing it wrong.  The Tithe should be a shared meal but if you are merely donating cash or even food and are not feasting it together with the unfortunates that you are donating to then you are missing the entire spirit of it, no matter where you are doing it.  
As regards the presence of the Lord I take the christian perspective.  Not christian in your sense but in another sense, because I don't really count you as christian (what is the name of that planet that you and tonye-t say you come from?) though if you insist I'll let you have the term and I'll call myself something different.  
The christian perspective is that where 2 or more christians are gathered together then the lord is present.  So as a christian I can 'tithe' anywhere with another christian.  

Now as regards your 3 purposes for tithes:

1. Supporting the work of God
2. Providing for his laborers (the Levites) and a third reason
3. To support the alien (stranger, homeless or disadvantaged) the fatherless and widow is also established in Deuteronomy 26.

you asked:
if all tithe are meant for consumption in the presence of God which one goes to the levites, for them to pay their tithe of tights to the prist? which one is being used to help the strangers and the ophans as the book of Duet said?
What do you think that the levites and the strangers are to do with their tithes?  Aren't they going to eat it too?
You have made the statement that it is for supporting the work of God so you will have to furnish us with the bible verses that says bring your tithes for the support of God's work.  

Out of curiousity, what do you expect that the Temple staff, the scribes, singers etc are going to do with the Grain and New Wine that the levites bring into the storehouse.  

Last point:
2. tithe was only material and never monetary. (Am still waiting to get any passage from the bible that stated that)
I only read about food in the bible.  You are the one now telling me that tithes can be money too.  Isn't the Onus on you to show me the passage in the bible that you got this from?  Abeg show me.  I'm waiting.

As regards monkey and baboon it seems that it is the strangers in the land that are baboon while the landlords are the monkeys.  What a question!!  No christian can ask this kind of question.
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common; 45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. 46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
Acts chapter 2.

That is the spirit of christianity.  Those who have little bring the little they have, those who have much bring the much that they have.  

Finally, consider this parable from Christ because it speaks directly to your attitude of monkey and baboon.  

<< Matthew 20 >>
King James Bible
1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. 2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? 7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. 9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. 11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house, 12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. 13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? 14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Is it not lawful for God to do what he wills with his own.  The First fruits and the tithe are his and if he desires to give those who don't work the land it is not your place to complain.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by KunleOshob(m): 4:38pm On Dec 31, 2009
Preach on pastor grin
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by Zikkyy(m): 4:41pm On Dec 31, 2009
@Princekevo,

In the book of Deuteronomy, tithe was meant to be eaten. The Israelites were never directed to bring their tithes to the temple storehouse (see Deuteronomy 14:28), tithe was first stored in the temple in the time of Hezekiah when he ordered the construction of chambers in the temple. The purpose was to provide safekeeping for surplus tithes and offerings (after everybody has eaten). Levites were subsequently appointed to distribute these items (see 2 Chronicles 31). The tithe kept in the temple storehouse belonged (by law) to the Levite who were temple workers (I also agree that the tenth of Levite tithe for the priest was also stored in the temple chamber).  So if we have the Levites today to take the tithe from the church strong room/vault, no problem then. This is based on the assumption that we (Christians) are required (by law) to render our tenths (you know we are not). I guess the way we practice tithing today negates the initial concept of tithe which was to provide for the needy as well as Levites required to work in the temple with no other means of livelihood.

And I don’t think Jacob promise to give a tenth of his blessing will serve as good enough justification to tithe, cos we don’t know if he did tithe, how he rendered his tithe (was the items left to rot at the makeshift temple or was it offered as burnt offering to the lord), was there ever a priest to receive Jacob’s tithe?
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by JeSoul(f): 4:47pm On Dec 31, 2009
Pastor AIO:

Jesoul, this is not fair! You warned me about Tonye-T but then you allowed me to walk right into PrinceKevo with my guard down. You set me up! I'll get you back for this. grin

Oga, ejo nor vex now. I am myself just getting familiar with Prince's views from this thread. No vex eh Pastor sir grin Happy new year in advance smiley
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by princekevo(m): 7:50pm On Dec 31, 2009
Kindly note that it is the commandment to takes tithes mentioned in verse 5 that was changed in verse 12, anulled and described as weak and unprofitable in verse 18. Please make sure you read the whole chapter to get the full context of the scripture.

OMG!!! May God forgive you for misinterpretation of his word. I quit this arguement.
I have searched through all the versons of the bible. Non gave me interpretation of the lies you jst told on a broad day light. From verse 12 of this passage was never talking abt tithe, but order the pristhood was chosed, or the transfer of the pristhoond from Melchizedek( Non Levite) to Levites and the perfection. Tithe was jst mention in vs 5 becoz it was one of the things that was common betwent the priesthood of Melchizedek and that of the levites. Abraham paid tithe to him as a the prist of God, later God chosed the tribe of levi to take over the pristhood and the tithe. All that this passage was trying explain was the pristhood of jesus christ, who was not chosed by the order of blood linage or tribe. just like that of Melchizedek( vs. 15-17).

Ok this is the amplified version of the passage that made it very clear.
11Now if perfection (a perfect fellowship between God and the worshiper) had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood--for under it the people were given the Law--why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order and rank of Aaron?
12For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is of necessity an alteration of the law [concerning the priesthood][/b]as well.

13For the One of Whom these things are said belonged [not to the priestly line but] to another tribe, no member of which has officiated at the altar.

14For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe.

15And this becomes more plainly evident when another Priest arises Who bears the likeness of Melchizedek,

16[b]Who has been constituted a Priest, not on the basis of a bodily legal requirement [an externally imposed command concerning His physical ancestry], but on the basis of the power of an endless and indestructible Life.

17For it is witnessed of Him, You are a Priest forever after the order (with the rank) of Melchizedek.


18So a previous physical regulation and command is cancelled because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness--

19[b]For the Law never made anything perfect--but instead a better hope is introduced through which we [now] come close to God.[/b]

You can see this clearly even in vs.19 it says "through which we come close to god". Through who? Jesus Christ. This is a passage that just explained the pristhood of jesus christ. Though not from the tribe of levi that was seens as the only tribe where prist are being produce, he became an everlasting pristhood that lives forever . Vs. 18 was merely talking about the anulment of this law by which pristhood was chosen based on physical regulation and command( Blood lineage or tribe).

Now you turned it into a passage where New testament abolished tithing. That is how you guys will read bible without understanding and come on NL here to spread lies.
Please tell the whole world where it was stated in vs 12 and 18 of your own bible that the comandment of tithing was abolisehed by this passage. I will expose all of your evil doings.
Re: Paying Tithe To Widows And Orphans by princekevo(m): 8:24pm On Dec 31, 2009
Matthew 20
Is it not lawful for God to do what he wills with his own.  The First fruits and the tithe are his and if he desires to give those who don't work the land it is not your place to complain.
@ pator AIO,
If you are indeed a christian or a pastor, Am sure the spirit of God has departed from you jst as the case of Saul.
Is like i would start by giving you the definition of the word parables.
We are talking abt tithing and giving, you are quoting the parable of Jesus Christ( The parable of the kingdom of heaven) he gave to explain some thing different. If you ever study you would have known that every parable of Jesus christ had a specific meaning. OMG!!! I cant stop rolling on the floor. Vs. 15 of this passage was still part of parable, you twisted again to suit your arguement. Vs 16 of was now the interpretation of the parable by Jesus to explain the specific lesson from the parable. 16" So the last shall be the first and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen (KJV).
Jesus used the parable to explain to us that not who start the race first shall arrive first, and also many like you were called but few were chosen. But here you are again using this innocent parable, to suit your arguement of banking a tenth of your incomes becoz is monetary and eating a tenth of mine with you at the end of the year, becoz my own income is beans, rice,garri, yam, cow. You wickedooh!!! pastor. Why not bring your own 1/10 which is monetary so that we can buy atleast, ports, gaz, other ingredients to cook my own portion of the tithe and a chair were we can sit to consume it. smiley smiley. And your like is by the side asking you to preach on. Am not suprised though coz the book of 2nd Timothy Forsaw and warned me against people like you and your followers in 2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

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