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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. (2111 Views)
Deepsight: Is Consciousness A Divine Attribute Or An Accident Of Evolution? / PASTOR AIO, Let's Discuss IFA. / Pastor AIO, Come Teach Us The Truth. (2) (3) (4)
Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 3:56am On Jul 15, 2012 |
I am quite sure that this topic has been thoroughly discussed on this forum. I am bringing it back to see if there are new ideas about consciousness, especially about human consciousness, worthy of discussion and debate. Human consciousness is one of the most fascinating and probbably the most difficult part of human nature to study and understand. There are many many theories, notions and traditions espousing different, and sometimes, contradicting ideas of what consciousness actually means. The entire academic and professional discipline of [b]psychology [/b]revolves around an attempt to understand human consciousness. 1. What is consciousness? 2. Do all living creatures have consciousness? 3.Is consciousness a devine, non-physical attribute of human nature, or, just an outcome of chemical reactions in the body? 4. Is our mother Earth a living conscious entity or just a ball of dirt and water floating in space? 5. Is there such a thing as collective consciousness or is every conscious being independent? Lets discuss. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by mkmyers45(m): 6:51am On Jul 15, 2012 |
Hoping to contribute to the thread... |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by PastorAIO: 9:08am On Jul 15, 2012 |
Well to start with . . . , can someone please help me to understand what KAG was talking about here when he draws a distinction between Awareness and Consciousness, and then claims to be able to demonstrate Awareness and Consciousness in the thread. KAG: Pastor AIO: KAG: Pastor AIO: Mr. KAG I have been so totally flummoxed by your standpoint that it has taken me this long to respond. Where does one start? KAG: Pastor AIO: KAG: Pastor AIO: KAG: Pastor AIO: O boy, let's just leave it. I don tire. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 1:33pm On Jul 15, 2012 |
Where is everyone?? |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by benodic: 5:33pm On Jul 15, 2012 |
according to the The Cosmic Sea of Words, Eckankar Lexicon, Consciousness is that state of being in which the individual lives daily, which is divided into two parts, the phenomenal and the transcendental. the phenomenal depends upon the sense organs for its expression, the transcendental is independent of the physical senses and works directly with the ECK (Holy Spirit) consciousness is also the reality of a particular kind of Awareness which is independent of the mind's activity.
yes. all living creatures have consciousness and non-living objects too.
consciousness is actually an attribute of Soul. the level of a Soul's consciousness determines where it will find its expression which can be at the mineral, plant, animal or human level
it is a living conscious entity and not just a ball of dirt and water floating in space. it has a unique state of consciousness which gives rise to the events in the world.
there is both individual consciousness and a collective consciousness. a collective consciousness of for example a particular tribe or country is comprised of aggregations of the individual consciousness within that tribe or country. 2 Likes |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by PastorAIO: 6:11pm On Jul 15, 2012 |
benodic: Wow! I've never check out Eck before and I agree with some of the things you say here. However, I would not say that Consciousness is a state cos I define a state as something that one is passing through, a stage in a process which is different from an unchanging essential being. However this could just be a matter of definitions and how we use the word differently. I often use the distinctions Phenomenal and Super-phenomenal, which I suppose is what you would mean by phenomenal and transcendental. benodic: I am inclined to agree with this but I don't think that I could state it quite to authoritatively. The problem would be how to prove it. benodic: I wouldn't call consciousness an attribute at all. I believe that it is more essential than that. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by PastorAIO: 6:11pm On Jul 15, 2012 |
plaetton: Where is everyone?? Wait till monday. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by DeepSight(m): 7:45pm On Jul 15, 2012 |
Wow. Brilliant thread. I have alot to say here, but using my phone now. Will revert when on the laptop. I will say alot here, especially to atheists, because they shockingly dont recognize that consciousness, and particularly knowing sentience, is the most unshakeable and obvious proof of the existence of that ultimate sentience that is called GOD. @ Pastor AIO, great rally u had there with Kag. I wonder is KAG is aware of the existence of chess playing robots and their ability to respond to complex strategic scenarios with jaw dropping intelligence. Such robots are neither self aware or conscious, not to speak of possessing knowing sentience. I'll be back. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 8:29pm On Jul 15, 2012 |
Deep Sight: How does it prove the existence of god? Pls enlighten us |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 2:42am On Jul 16, 2012 |
Consciousness defines reality. An Altered state of consciousness produces an altered perception of reality. The universe, is , ultimately, a projection of our consciousness. We see how drugs can alter our reality by simply elevating or altering the vibrational rate of our consciousness(our brain waves). Therefore, Reality does not exist without the consciousness that defines it. This brings us a very important question- Can an individual consciousness survive the physical dematerialisation(death) of the body? If yes, how does the surviving intangible consciousness percieve any reality? If no,does't that mean that universe ceases to exist since that consciousness no longer exists to percieve it? The implication is that universe is probably a holographic projection that consciousness uses as an interface between it and nothingness. It would mean that universe does not really exist except for the 7 billions units of exiled consciousness that percieve it as real in this planet. And this again brings me to another question. Did consciousness exist prior to the formation of the universe, or, is consciousness a by-product of energy interactions within the universe? Were we conscious before we were born or did we grow into consciousness as our foetal brain waves reached a critical threshold? This has great implications for the idea of an aftelifer, for , if we grew into consciousness, then consciousness would not be expected to survive the destruction of the physical body. In this case the notion of an afterlife quickly becomes a big dud. Not so? Where is N Nwankwo? I would love to see his opinions on this. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by PastorAIO: 3:15am On Jul 16, 2012 |
plaetton: Consciousness defines reality. An Altered state of consciousness produces an altered perception of reality. Would you accept it if I changed where you say 'an altered state of consciousness' and say rather an altered mode of perception. I am suggesting this because it seems that you are talking about Perceptions rather than Consciousness. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 4:36am On Jul 16, 2012 |
Pastor AIO: I do understand where you are coming from. After thinking about it, I think I 'll let it remain as is. For example, Brain scans clearly show that narcotis do affect brain waves and neural impulses, and therefore do alter states of consciousness, which in turn, alters the perception of reality. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by PastorAIO: 9:00am On Jul 16, 2012 |
plaetton: Okay, but then I'll have to say that what you are calling consciousness is not what I am calling Consciousness. We are talking about 2 different things. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by InesQor(m): 9:49am On Jul 16, 2012 |
@Plaetton and Pastor AIO: Consciousness is awareness, but does not necessarily involve perception. Imagine two men experiencing a toothache. One is introspective of the pain, and thus is "conscious" of it, while the other pays it no mind. We can then say that the first man has a conscious pain. This is the first sense of "conscious". The second sense/meaning would be that just by virtue of having pain, both have conscious states. Pain is naturally phenomenal, and so in that second sense we cannot talk about unconscious pain. But in the first sense, one can be conscious / unconscious of pain. To avoid ambiguity, we should rather term the first sense of consciousness phenomenality, as closely related to perception. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by InesQor(m): 10:14am On Jul 16, 2012 |
plaetton:1. Consciousness is that which governs awareness of self/identity and surrounding. 2. Since all living creatures generally experience a sense of self-preservation to ensure survival, this means they are aware of identity and can distinguish self from surrounding. Therefore are conscious. 3. I think it is both, because there is an unexplained "gap" between mind and matter (e.g. why are brain states "conscious" as opposed to others?). But the problem with my stand would be to explain empirically how the non-physical attributes of consciousness can causally influence/interact with the physical ones. Materialists generally believe the mind is the brain, and consciousness only reflects neural activity. But rather, I agree with the philosopher Huxley (not Nairaland Huxley, Lol) here: "How it is that anything so remarkable as a state of consciousness comes about as a result of irritating nervous tissue, is just as unaccountable as the appearance of Djin when Aladdin rubbed his lamp" - T.H.Huxley This problem is called the Hard problem of Consciousness (originally identified by David Chalmers), and tries to understand how to explain states of consciousness in terms of their neurological basis. EDIT: Chalmers' formulation of the Hard Problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness It is undeniable that some organisms are subjects of experience. But the question of how it is that these systems are subjects of experience is perplexing. Why is it that when our cognitive systems engage in visual and auditory information-processing, we have visual or auditory experience: the quality of deep blue, the sensation of middle C? How can we explain why there is something it is like to entertain a mental image, or to experience an emotion? It is widely agreed that experience arises from a physical basis, but we have no good explanation of why and how it so arises. Why should physical processing give rise to a rich inner life at all? It seems objectively unreasonable that it should, and yet it does. 4. I think Mother Earth is a conscious entity. This is evidenced by climatic changes and the numerous earthquakes, volcanoes, landslides and tsunamis as the Earth fights back in a form of self-preservation, oceans and the atmosphere seemingly conspiring against us, bringing baking temperatures, more powerful storms, floods and ever-climbing sea levels. 5. I believe there is both individual and collective consciousness. The collective consciousness would be made up of the consciousnesses of the individuals that share the same motive in any particular respect. This motive would then serve to unite their identity in that regard, and this identity will be governed by a communal or collective consciousness. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by Nobody: 1:30pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by Nobody: 1:51pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
InesQor: I think you're just anthropomorphizing "mother" earth. These geological events have been observed on other planets and moons, so I think it's just the human hubris to think that natural events happen because the earth is defending itself againt humans. I'm not saying that human actions do not contribute but thinking the earth is a concious entity because of geological changes is a little bit too much. http://geology.com/articles/active-volcanoes-solar-system.shtml http://science.discovery.com/tv/how-the-universe-works/ |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 2:06pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Martian: On that note Martian,all life earth springs from and is sustained by the earth. The human body contains all the elements found on the earth. So logically, the earth is alive and is our mother. If we have consciousness, then how could you imagine that our mother would not also have same? |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by Nobody: 2:09pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
I think Patient H.M is another evidence that our conciousness, identity, memory etc all supervene on the neural networks and other parts of our brains. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Molaison http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/us/05hm.html?pagewanted=all After exhausting other treatments, Dr. Scoville decided to surgically remove two finger-shaped slivers of tissue from Mr. Molaison’s brain. The seizures abated, but the procedure — especially cutting into the hippocampus, an area deep in the brain, about level with the ears — left the patient radically changed. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 2:14pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Martian: I think Patient H.M is another evidence that our conciousness, identity, memory etc all supervene on the neural networks and other parts of our brains. Well, definitely the brain and the neural networks constitute the interface between intangible consciouness and physical reality. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by Nobody: 2:16pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Anencephaly No Forebrain = No "Self" Although some individuals with anencephaly may be born with a main brain stem, the lack of a functioning cerebrum permanently rules out the possibility of ever gaining consciousness, reflex actions such as breathing and responses to sound or touch may occur." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anencephaly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_K |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 2:28pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Martian: Anencephaly This would mean that the neural network in this case is incomplete and therefore unable to generate brainwaves capable of reaching the critical threashold of consciousness. Would you agree? |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by Nobody: 2:30pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
plaetton: Yes....and I think the most important part to it all is the forebrain. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 2:58pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
So consciousness is a product of electrical activity in the brain. No electrical activity, no consciousness, no reality. Just nothingness. Oh Oh.Hmmmm. Dilema. I'm confused now. Can someone please come and explain consciousness and the afterlife. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by Nobody: 3:17pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
plaetton: Okay. plaetton: I think this is how James Cameron conceived of planet pandora and "eywa" for the movie Avatar. I don't think the earth is "alive" or is concious because there is no reason or evidence to suggest that the earth is concious in any shape or form. Unless you want to call geological actvities the evidence of conciousness. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 3:37pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Martian: What? you dont think the earth is alive? Evidence that the earth is alive am shaking my head. What type of reason or evidence are you looking for? Even first grade biology gives you enough evidence.I'm dissapointed. And pls dont start with your carricatures. It would be a sure sign that this one is way over your head. Dont be too proud to say " I dont know" |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by Nobody: 3:51pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
plaetton: What do you mean "alive"? do you mean it contains organisms that have life or do you mean the earth itself is alive as a sentient organism? lol, why are you been combative, I'm just asking what you mean by the "earth is alive" |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 4:01pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Martian: Because you have started with your avatar thing. In whatever way you define life, the earth has it. That is the only way it can give life. What is life to you? |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by Nobody: 4:08pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
plaetton: Why are you people always getting so easily offended? Correct me if I'm wrong. Did or didn't James Cameron use the Gaia hypothesis or something similar as an inspiration for Pandora? plaetton: Life can take many forms as we all know,both concious and unconcious but this is a proposition that a whole planet is sentient. It could be true and it could be false,and that's why I was asking you to clarify what you meant. |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by PastorAIO: 4:24pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
What do we mean by Alive, as opposed to Dead? Are these words/concepts synonymous with Animate as opposed to Inanimate? |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by plaetton: 6:18pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Pastor AIO: What do we mean by Alive, as opposed to Dead? what do you think? |
Re: Deepsight,pastor AIO, And Everyone Else, Lets Discuss CONSCIOUSNESS.. Again. by Kay17: 6:21pm On Jul 16, 2012 |
Harnessing KAG's terms: Consciousness is a higher level of awareness which includes self-realization/perception of one's identity. I think its first an effect, a state generated by base matter eg brain. Because both experimentally, matter and energy can't be exempted from the entire process. As to why there is consciousness? |
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