LagosShia:

you are talking of God here and not man.if you imagine a rich man with enormous wealth he has accumulated,you can rightly question if he is capable of self-less love.and even at that,there are men who are very rich and selfish and yet capable of self-less love in relation to their wife and children.so now imagine God that possesses everything and the power to create and bring into existence from where nothing existed save Him.put creation in the form of children or wife and then maximize your vision of God that does not acquire but creates.

If you are implying that Allah created love, it still boils down to the same thing, created love cannot be selfless. If Allah for instance demand that I inconvenience myself for another, he requires of me something that he himself is incapable of doing. He requires of me something that is beyond his power

Mr_Anony:
If you are implying that Allah created love, it still boils down to the same thing, created love cannot be selfless. If Allah for instance demand that I inconvenience myself for another, he requires of me something that he himself is incapable of doing. He requires of me something that is beyond his power

love isn't created.it is a manifestation of mercy.being merciful is part of God's being and His attribute.i know where you are heading to with your discussion.but i am waiting for it to reach there.

LagosShia:

love isn't created.it is a manifestation of mercy.being merciful is part of God's being and His attribute.i know where you are heading to with your discussion.but i am waiting for it to reach there.

Same question, to whom was he merciful before creation? You cannot say you know the true taste of salt without first tasting salt. besides mercy doesn't really require him to inconvenience himself so love is not a manifestation of mercy rather mercy is a manifestation of love.

@delafruita
Sorry 4 d 1st blunder we all learning

Now what i can say is dat the original injil has been distorted and tampered with, dats probably one of the reasons for the many discrepancies

lekibraky:
We are talkn about reality of religion u are talkn about love when God himself in the bible to follow prophet muhammed because its him who is replica of moses.
Islam preaches love and tolerance too.
muslims might not be perfect but islam is a perfect relgion from Allah.
Apart from the quran which other religious book talks about science and confirmed by scientist

mohammed ȋ̝̊̅§ not carrying d same grace as moses! Jesus is d only way bak τ̲̅ȍђ God! Mohammed or moses dey both were prophets! We are not τ̲̅ȍђ serve prophets buh God himself! You can setve God if you are not his own! You can't be His own if you are not Born by Jesus Christ! D@ is d only mystery d@ you don't understand! God created all Ãήϑ he sent grace τ̲̅ȍђ eternity tru Jesus, chikenah

laykhorn:
Pls! Do not go there. There are alot of occasions in d hadith where muhammad preached ' luv ur neighbour as urself' nd evn there is a verse in d quran that says 'if u do things you dnt lyk 2 b done to u to ur neighbors, u are nt a real muslim'. It baffles me alot wen pipu say things they gt no hint of.

mo'med preached it buh U̶̲̥̅̊ guys don't 4lo it! It ȋ̝̊̅§ also I̶̲̥̅̊n̶̲̥̅̊ d bible d@ d hand of ismealites will be AGAINST his brodas Ãήϑ you guys still claim d@ "blessing" till dis day! Islam I̶̲̥̅̊n̶̲̥̅̊ Yoruba ȋ̝̊̅§ called 'IMOLE' meaning knowledge of hardship, toughness, stubbornness! Am sure dey studied muslims' way of lyf b4 naming it as such!

Mr_Anony:
Same question, to whom was he merciful before creation?

no one if you mean by creation inclusive of angels and other living creatures God made.man was not God's first creation.

You cannot say you know the true taste of salt without first tasting salt. besides mercy doesn't really require him to inconvenience himself so love is not a manifestation of mercy rather mercy is a manifestation of love.

are you saying to love is "incovinient"?

love is a manifestation of mercy.where there is no mercy there can be no love.but there can be mercy and no love.let me demonstrate it for you.

in the court,we hear of the phrase:"to tamper justice with mercy", and not with love.that is because the judge can have mercy even if he does not necessarily love you.

i can have mercy upon you and still not love you.

but it is impossible to claim to love you if i am not merciful towards you.with no mercy comes no love.mercy is a must for there to be love.but love is not a must for there to be mercy.mercy supercedes both love and justice.that is why when we muslims pray,we use the phrase:

in the name of God most merciful,most gracious.

Holy Quran 6:12
"Say, "To whom belongs whatever is in the heavens and earth?" Say, "To Allah ." He has decreed upon Himself mercy. He will surely assemble you for the Day of Resurrection, about which there is no doubt. Those who will lose themselves [that Day] do not believe".

Holy Quran 6:54
"And when those come to you who believe in Our verses, say, "Peace be upon you. Your Lord has decreed upon Himself mercy: that any of you who does wrong out of ignorance and then repents after that and corrects himself - indeed, He is Forgiving and Merciful."

Holy Quran 9:102
"And [there are] others who have acknowledged their sins. They had mixed a righteous deed with another that was bad. Perhaps Allah will turn to them in forgiveness. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful".

LagosShia:
no one if you mean by creation inclusive of angels and other living creatures God made.man was not God's first creation.



are you saying to love is "incovinient"?

love is a manifestation of mercy.where there is no mercy there can be no love.but there can be mercy and no love.let me demonstrate it for you.

in the court,we hear of the phrase:"to tamper justice with mercy", and not with love.that is because the judge can have mercy even if he does not necessarily love you.

i can have mercy upon you and still not love you.

but it is impossible to claim to love you if i am not merciful towards you.with no mercy comes no love.mercy is a must for there to be love.but love is not a must for there to be mercy.mercy supercedes both love and justice.that is why when we muslims pray,we use the phrase:

in the name of God most merciful,most gracious.

You just made my point for me. Allah can be merciful to you even though he does not necessarily love you. I have taken it a step further to say that he, his very nature dictates, that he is incapable of selfless love.
If Allah was a man, he cannot inconvenience himself for you at all. At best, he loves you like an object and not much more than that. This is why islam is more about submission than a true relationship with God.
Allah cannot be your father in the true sense of the word, at best he is your boss and you are his servants no matter how much he favors you.

Mr_Anony:

You just made my point for me. Allah can be merciful to you even though he does not necessarily love you. I have taken it a step further to say that he, his very nature dictates, that he is incapable of selfless love.
If Allah was a man, he cannot inconvenience himself for you at all. At best, he loves you like an object and not much more than that. This is why islam is more about submission than a true relationship with God.
Allah cannot be your father in the true sense of the word, at best he is your boss and you are his servants no matter how much he favors you.

i stated earlier on that mercy supercedes love.in other words,even when there is no reason for God to love you,He still acts towards you with love,care,compassion and concern out of His mercy.mercy is greater than love.when there is mercy,then actions speak louder than words,and you can feel love.

love is a mutual feeling of give and take.but when God is merciful,He is onesidedly kind,loving and compassionate towards you.

Islam preaches love and tolerance muslims might not be perfect but islam is a perfect relgion from Allah.
Apart from the quran which other religious book talks about science and confirmed by scientist

There we go again.

LagosShia:

i stated earlier on that mercy supercedes love.in other words,even when there is no reason for God to love you,He still acts towards you with love,care,compassion and concern out of His mercy.mercy is greater than love.when there is mercy,then actions speak louder than words,and you can feel love.

love is a mutual feeling of give and take.but when God is merciful,He is onesidedly kind,loving and compassionate towards you.

You are missing the point. Allah can be be immensely merciful, loving, compassionate, kind e.t.c. towards you but He can never inconvenience himself for you....and that is what love really is.

A mutual feeling of give and take is more or less a business contract.
A one sided benevolence is alms giving.
It is when someone can do something for you even though it costs him much. that you know that the person loves you.
Allah is incapable of this love.

Mr_Anony:
Good, it is exactly those basic concepts that I am indeed questioning. How can a self-sufficient one not be selfish? How can he do anything outside himself? How can he love selflessly?
I am not arguing that he does not need to, I am arguing that he is incapable of selfless love.

Btw, I apologise for saying "your Allah"

so your saying your jesus is NOT Self sufficient and therefore love selflessly?
What are the attributes of GOD?

Mr_Anony:

You are missing the point. Allah can be be immensely merciful, loving, compassionate, kind e.t.c. towards you but He can never inconvenience himself for you....and that is what love really is.

Almighty God can never face inconvinience.

does God you believe in feel inconvinience? does that make sense to you? when you feel inconvinience,that is weakness.it means you are challenged and feel discomfort or loose. does it make sense that the One who made you and everything and has made mercy incumbent upon Himself for your good find that as inconvinient?

A mutual feeling of give and take is more or less a business contract.
A one sided benevolence is alms giving.
It is when someone can do something for you even though it costs him much. that you know that the person loves you.
Allah is incapable of this love.

there is nothing you want from Allah to give you that can cost Him anything talkless of much.

when you are talking of love here,love is definite but mercy is not definite and thus you hear of the phrase :"God's infinite mercy".mercy is not finite as love.

today you may love someone and have a relationship with that person.then the person can do something and you'd not love the person.in the case of God,it is His mercy which supercedes love that makes you to experience His love and kindness even when you have misbehaved.for instance,whether you are Muslim or not,you breath air and you receive sunshine and get sustenance.if He wants to behave in the definition of love,and follow your actions that you do not love Him to punish you for not believing in Him,then only Muslims would have the privilege for instance of breathing air.and all else would perish the moment you stop loving Him or He stops loving you.therefore love is defined and bound by a relationship.mercy on the other hand is not.it is given free of charge and at no cost.also when it comes to God,He is so great and infinitely merciful to make things possible for us.

justaqad:

so your saying your jesus is NOT Self sufficient and therefore love selflessly?
What are the attributes of GOD?

he is plainly saying God he believes in is not self-sufficient.and for God to love selflessly,He must feel the cost of loving and not be "self-sufficient".i have being trying to explain to him that God is infinitely merciful.and therefore mercy superceded love.

Mr_Anony:

You are missing the point. Allah can be be immensely merciful, loving, compassionate, kind e.t.c. towards you but He can never inconvenience himself for you....and that is what love really is.

A mutual feeling of give and take is more or less a business contract.
A one sided benevolence is alms giving.
It is when someone can do something for you even though it costs him much. that you know that the person loves you.
Allah is incapable of this love.

so ur jesus that is capable of this selfless love waited thousands of years before commiting suicide.or was he scared of the egyptian whips?hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe.
What will happen to those before him?since he claims no one cometh to the father except through him?
Heheheheheheheheheheheheh

LagosShia:

he is plainly saying God he believes in is not self-sufficient.and for God to love selflessly,He must feel the cost of loving and not be "self-sufficient".i have being trying to explain to him that God is infinitely merciful.and therefore mercy superceded love.

i wouldn't blame him that much,cos his god is not almighty.what do u expect,when his god regreted after creating man.hehehehehehe.so much for being almighty.i guess his god was part human and part god when he harboured the thoughts of creating man.hehehehe

justaqad:

so your saying your jesus is NOT Self sufficient and therefore love selflessly?
What are the attributes of GOD?

God is all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present, all-sufficient, full of love.

LagosShia:

Almighty God can never face inconvinience.
That is why Allah is incapable of love. He cannot do what even you can do.

does God you believe in feel inconvinience? does that make sense to you? when you feel inconvinience,that is weakness.it means you are challenged and feel discomfort or loose. does it make sense that the One who made you and everything and has made mercy incumbent upon Himself for your good find that as inconvinient?

Inconvenience is not weakness, it is just inconvenience.
To save us from sin God gave His Son. God took the form of a man and sacrificed His life for me and you.
Do you know the most profound thing about that sacrifice?
A God who is infinitely holy bore the stench and filth of the sins of His creation.
He allowed Himself to be humiliated for our sake.
His precious blood was shed for us so that we will have His righteousness.
God loves us so much that He has borne the punishment for our sin. He has taken away our guilt.
The gift He has given us is the greatest gift ever.

We can now be sure of Heaven. Not by slaving away to meet His demands but by relating with Him as to a Father who loves us so much that He can give up Godship for our sakes.

Mr_Anony:
God is all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present, all-sufficient, full of love.




Inconvenience is not weakness, it is just inconvenience.
To save us from sin God gave His Son. God took the form of a man and sacrificed His life for me and you.
Do you know the most profound thing about that sacrifice?
A God who is infinitely holy bore the stench and filth of the sins of His creation.
He allowed Himself to be humiliated for our sake.
His precious blood was shed for us so that we will have His righteousness.
God loves us so much that He has borne the punishment for our sin. He has taken away our guilt.
The gift He has given us is the greatest gift ever.

We can now be sure of Heaven. Not by slaving away to meet His demands but by relating with Him as to a Father who loves us so much that He can give up Godship for our sakes.

did u type 'ALL Sufficient' or are my eyes deceiving me?
Mr,u just shot yourself by yourself,hehehehehehehehe
if jesus is all sufficient then he is incapable of selfless love.
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
hypocri.........

The same bible contradicted the dogma of cruci-fiction.
Heheheheheheheheheheh

Mr_Anony:
God is all-powerful, all-knowing, ever-present, all-sufficient, full of love.

is he self-sufficient?

Inconvenience is not weakness, it is just inconvenience.
[/quote
lol

so what is inconvinience?

[quote]
To save us from sin God gave His Son. God took the form of a man and sacrificed His life for me and you.

i know fully well this is where you were heading to-that "God so loved the world that he sacrificed his only begotten son".

before i continue further,because i am well packaged for this,i want to first point out that there is a contradiction in the above assumption you stated.

you said God gave His "son".you then said "he took the form of man and sacrificed his life".so who was sacrificed? God Himself or "his son"?

Do you know the most profound thing about that sacrifice?
A God who is infinitely holy bore the stench and filth of the sins of His creation.
He allowed Himself to be humiliated for our sake.
His precious blood was shed for us so that we will have His righteousness.
God loves us so much that He has borne the punishment for our sin. He has taken away our guilt.
The gift He has given us is the greatest gift ever.

We can now be sure of Heaven. Not by slaving away to meet His demands but by relating with Him as to a Father who loves us so much that He can give up Godship for our sakes.

i will reply appropriately to the above which is little short of an insane belief.no offense intended but that is really what it is and that is what i will show you it is-insanity.

but before that,i want you to answer this:

according to John 3:16,"he sacrificed his only begotten son".

my question is why do you believe God only has an "only son".is your God incapable of getting another son? did old age overcome him? did he find himself impotent? please explain why this God cannot get another son and therefore the "sacrifice of his son" was very costly because that alleged "son" is the only son.possibly that is why you have being arguing ever since to prove that a loving God cannot be self-sufficient.he is so insufficient that he could only have "one son" and not capable of another!!!

justaqad:

did u type 'ALL Sufficient' or are my eyes deceiving me?
Mr,u just shot yourself by yourself,hehehehehehehehe
if jesus is all sufficient then he is incapable of selfless love.
Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe
hypocri.........

The same bible contradicted the dogma of cruci-fiction.
Heheheheheheheheheheh

There is a difference between all-sufficient and self-sufficient
All-sufficient: Enough for all
Self-sufficient: Enough for myself

LagosShia:

is he self-sufficient?

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehh.
My mind no even go there.which one are we to believe.a loving god that left his throne in heaven and commited suicide on earth.or an incapable selfish god, rather than selflessly atone for the sins of his so loved creatures sent his only begotten son to die?isn't that cowardice and selfishisness?

Mr_Anony:
There is a difference between all-sufficient and self-sufficient
All-sufficient: Enough for all
Self-sufficient: Enough for myself

please tell us the difference in regards to God.

then you will see they are the same!!!

justaqad:

hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehh.
My mind no even go there.which one are we to believe.a loving god that left his throne in heaven and commited suicide on earth.or an incapable selfish god, rather than selflessly atone for the sins of his so loved creatures sent his only begotten son to die?isn't that cowardice and selfishisness?

allow him first to decide whether it was his selfless God that himself came down to die,but later woke up as if nothing happened.

or is it this "selfless" and "loving" God that sent his weeping and pleading "son" to come and die on earth or else He will not forgive man his sins nor the sin that someone else (Adam) committed and he held all mankind responsible for it while He sits there watching.

he needs to first tell us who came down to die:the "son" or the "father".

LagosShia:

please tell us the difference in regards to God.

then you will see they are the same!!!

Very simple:
All-suffiency: God is distinct from man yet is enough for man. This means He can give man ALL things.
Self-sufficient: God is distinct from man and is enough for Himself. This means He can only give man from what He has.

Mr_Anony:
Very simple:
All-suffiency: God is distinct from man yet is enough for man. This means He can give man ALL things.
Self-sufficient: God is distinct from man and is enough for Himself. This means He can only give man from what He has.

what is the difference? tell us.

from what you stated,i find no difference.in both God is sufficient whether for Himself or for others because He is the Creator Almighty of everything and everyone.

if you disagree,then state the differnce.

LagosShia:

allow him first to decide whether it was his selfless God that himself came down to die,but later woke up as if nothing happened.

or is it this "selfless" and "loving" God that sent his weeping and pleading "son" to come and die on earth or else He will not forgive man his sins nor the sin that someone else (Adam) committed and he held all mankind responsible for it while He sits there watching.

he needs to first tell us who came down to die:the "son" or the "father".

I think we are descending into the realm of mockery. Please let us not do that. I will answer your questions but first let me ask.

1.Do you really believe that God can do all things?
2.Do you believe that God is full of Holiness and detests evil?

Mr_Anony:
I think we are descending into the realm of mockery. Please let us not do that. I will answer your questions but first let me ask.

1.Do you really believe that God can do all things?
2.Do you believe that God is full of Holiness and detests evil?

yes i do.He can do all things,remember? like He can also out of His infinite mercy forgive mankind without having himself come down to earth to suffer and die on the cross and later wake up;or sending his son to suffer for what he didn't commit;or hold mankind responsible for a sin someone else (Adam) is said to have committed.he can forgive out of his power and infinite mercy.

but when you say,"he can do all things",it means he can "suffer" and "die".that is not a show of power or omnipotence.you are asking us not to descend into mockery,but isn't what you're attributing to God ridiculous?in that sense,i can also ask if you believe God can walk naked,go hungry,sleep,dance,e.t.c. since you're defining "he can do all things" in that line of even descending to doing things of lesser creatures.

Mr_Anony:
I think we are descending into the realm of mockery. Please let us not do that. I will answer your questions but first let me ask.

1.Do you really believe that God can do all things?
2.Do you believe that God is full of Holiness and detests evil?

abeg make we no dwell on that,i need clarification on this


allow him first to decide whether it was his selfless God that
himself came down to die,but later woke up as if nothing
happened. or is it this "selfless" and "loving" God that sent his weeping and
pleading "son" to come and die on earth or else He will not forgive
man his sins nor the sin that someone else (Adam) committed and
he held all mankind responsible for it while He sits there watching. he needs to first tell us who came down to die:the "son" or the
"father".

laykhorn:
Foools like you annoy me cos are you deaf and blind to still understand that this stup1d BH boys are ethnic mor0ns. Terrorists are terrorists!!! I can't remember a time durin the terrorism done by 9ja delta boys in wich they were labelled CHRISTIANS. I'm sure you've got some1 around u who is a muslim.. Why nt ask that person b4 typin this. Our main problem in Nigeria is Ignorance. When yorubas nd igbos were busy sendin their kids 2 skul, didn't they sense a danger in d illiterate nd ignorant hausa kids who are goin 2 for b idle for the rest of their life and may try bein rebellous as their revenge. Better knw 2day that those helpless kids on ur street gonna du sumtin 2 ur kids 2mao. In the south-west here, most of them become touts, southern bcom naijadelta boys, nd in the north,they gt no other choice than Boko.

did 9ja delta boys ever mentioned that they where sent frm god?, or did they mention reliigion in any way?

LagosShia:

firstly,if you want to talk like an idi.ot i will not continue this discussion.i am sure you will disagree that christianity makes people stupid,blind and ignorant.therefore talk respectably and with some sense and dont portray yourself and speak like an imbe.cile.

He is not "my Allah".in Islam and to muslims unlike in christianity and to christians,God is not a monopoly for any one group of people or community.He is the universal unique one unseen almighty Creator of all.by the time you bring Him down to that level of a "local god",you're not talking about God the Almighty Creator,unique one unseen and supreme.and cannot therefore agree with a Muslim by trying to bring down God Almighty to a possessed being or imagination of a local level.

to answer your question,about who Allah was loving before the creation,in Islam Allah (swt) or God Almighty is self-sufficient.He is al-hayyul qayyum.He does not need to love,to eat,drink or sleep.He does as He will.these are basic concepts a Muslim is taught about God.so that should make man ever more thankful to God because he really does no good and adds nothing to God and His greatness.

Well said bro!!

LagosShia:

yes i do.He can do all things,remember? like He can also out of His infinite mercy forgive mankind without having himself come down to earth to suffer and die on the cross and later wake up;or sending his son to suffer for what he didn't commit;or hold mankind responsible for a sin someone else (Adam) is said to have committed.he can forgive out of his power and infinite mercy.

but when you say,"he can do all things",it means he can "suffer" and "die".that is not a show of power or omnipotence.you are asking us not to descend into mockery,but isn't what you're attributing to God ridiculous?in that sense,i can also ask if you believe God can walk naked,go hungry,sleep,dance,e.t.c. since you're defining "he can do all things" in that line of even descending to doing things of lesser creatures.

This is my point exactly. If you truly believe that God can do anything, then it shouldn't be hard for you to believe that God can be both father and son at the same time.
Now can God allow Himself to be humiliated? can God allow himself to suffer? Yes He can.
Now will God allow Himself to be humiliated? will God allow Himself to bear our sin? Yes, and He did it because He loves us.
Why should God bear the punishment for our sins? Because sin must be punished and for God to just let sin go like that, It will mean He is not just so He bore our sins so that he can justly punish our sins and yet show mercy.

This is the sacrifice God made for us:- he gave up the privileges of Godship and became a man so that He could save us. That is what it means to love.