₦airaland Forum

Read here www.thenigerianarchive.

here we go again - read my post on tribalism being a detriment to Nigeria at www.thenigerianarchive.

Well actually it's one of the only 3 countries in africa that is on the semi-periphery in terms of development. Which means that it is industrializing to an extent, but still has many characteristics of a developing country. The other countries are still just on the periphery (desperately trying to develop). Check out my blog at www.thenigerianarchive.

Read the new post and the implications of this at www.thenigerianarchive.

btw i completely agree with those 3 Cs from the previous post. very good

ShangoThor:

Cap28, you’re bang on the money, however, where we differ is that there are two aspects to the imperialism that Africans were (some argue, are being) subjected to. The obvious which you’ve mentioned is Western, but the other, which is a lot older is that of Islamic Imperialism, and perhaps we are in for a phase 3, that of Asiatic Imperialism, with the Chinese and Indians sharpening their claws since we are not short of leaders that are willing to mortgage Nigeria/Africa and enslave future generations unborn.

The bottom line is only Africans themselves can stop themselves being victims. Keywords being the 3 C’s, : ‘cooperation’, ‘collaboration’ and ‘control’.
There is absolutely no reason why we can’t build our Utopia, it is mindset that keeps us at the bottom of the ‘food chain’.

This is it. People like cap28 moan about how we were put at a disadvantage by europeans. But why was this allowed to happen in the first place? why weren't we able to defend ourselves? why were some of us sold off to europeans in mass numbers? I'm not putting the slave trade as solely the fault of africans (before some posters start slobbering at the mouth) BUT where was our solidarity then? where was our want to advance then?

Get real. We didn't have it, so they took it. That's te game and we LOST. sad but true. i'm sure you're an adult - realise that life is just unfair

If you're talking about REAL solidarity amongst people of the same nation, then great. But Nigeria is a great example of where people don't have any respect for their own people, let alone their own families in a lot of cases. Let's start wit ourselves before we whine about what the europeans did, and will be doing eh? Or is self-reflection simply too much hard work?

i reside in the west and am currently, i live in a city full of ex-patriots at the moment. and guess what? i'm playing the game, which means i'm entering into those communities that you believe are locked to the non-whites. there's a glass ceiling, sure, but i'm going places, and that, my friend, is all any of us can try to do in this life.

DO and set an example, instead of using this forum as a platform to air your tired and meaninless griefs.

[quote author=tpiah! link=topic=530188.msg7716630#msg7716630 date=1297497958]^^slow your roll.

take a deep breath, then reread slowly.

the posts you're responding to, were referring to africans, not so?[/quote]I'm not sure what you're talking about but I was referring to all of those posters that continue to cry and moan about something that never affected them directly nor (if I'm not mistaken that posters on here are not black american) affected their ancestors. Forget about 'black man' solidarity. It's a vain and pointless concept. African NATIONS are what matter now. Learn from the past but use it to work on the current. Instead of solutions, all I read from some are these tired arguments about how the black man is being suppressed. We don't help ourselves, and that is the plain truth

cap28:
You are right, i find it puzzling myself that africans speak in glowing terms about america given its racial history. 

Its really bizarre, i mean these are people who enslaved our ancestors, brutalised and degraded them and denied them their humanity.   Today people of african descent or origin  in america continue to experience discrimination and are treated as inferior to the white race because of this terrible legacy and yet africans love america - i dont understand it.

America is a country run by a small and powerful elite who put their own interests before the interests of the people. The original constitution was drafted by members of the american ruling class - ie the slave owners, merchants, financiers and politicians  - these people's aim was not to provide a democratic system of govt but to protect their own interests and perpetuate themselves in power.

Everything that the american people have today ie workers rights, women's rights, voting rights was not given automatically by the elite but had to be fought for by the people.

Over the years changes were made to the constitution but this was not done voluntarily by the govt but only when people rose up and fought the system  - a good example is the blacks fighting back in the 1950s and 60s  to end the JIm Crow system - if america was a country that beleived in equality, fairness and justice there wouldnt be such a huge gap in terms of education and living standards between white americans and black americans.  The whites already had a 400 year head start over blacks and it will take many generations for that gap to narrow, furthermore whites are in the majority, occupy the majority of postions in govt and are in control of economic policy - it is therefore unlikely that they will create a system which will weaken their own position and strengthen the position of blacks.

Change the record

[quote author=tpiah! link=topic=530188.msg7716483#msg7716483 date=1297495492]we think with our emotions.

not necessarily a bad thing, perhaps.[/quote]

AjanleKoko:
It's amazing that the US, a country with such a dark recent history (Jim Crow, slavery, the KKK, etc) should be spoken of so glowingly by Africans.
Simply amazing. Black people definitely have a lot to learn about life.

All countries have dark histories. Don't allow your emotions over the racial element of some of Americas history cloud your judgement. America is a great country. Fact

the founders had ambition for their country and people. as well as other attributes a developing country needs. that is why they became so powerful. it's not about being blessed. building a nation has nothing to do 'blessings'

Read this, plus commentary and WikiLeaks extracts on Nigeria oil, corruption, part in commonwealth. Comment and take part in polls on tribalism, black magic. All at www.thenigerianarchive.
Let's get interactive!

Horus:
Exactly!!. The Government in Nigeria is the innocent mirror of the nation. The quality of government and its leaders, is simply
a reflection of the collective consciousness of all the people in Nigeria. In some instances, leaders who came to power as the champions of anti-corruption have themselves been charged with being involved with levels of corruption even more serious than those of their predecessors. If the collective consciousness in Nigeria is disintegrated and negative, and people are not behaving in accord with Natural Law, then problems and corruption will be an unavoidable phenomenon of government. If, on the other hand, the collective consciousness in Nigeria is positive, integrated, and coherent, then the government will not be influenced by any negativity. If the people in Nigeria wish to be protected from corruption in government, then they must create an integrated collective consciousness. Positivity and harmony should be so strong and dense in national consciousness that negative influences cannot penetrate it.

This is what so many people don't get. People blame the govt like they're aliens who arrived from space and landed in Nigeria to screw up the economy and tread on the citizens. But they were once citizens too and took their citizen values into power with them. A lot of normal Nigerians would do the same as them - it's sad to say but true. There's no point in being patriotic when your way of thinking is detrimental to a progressive, civilised society. People who criticise Nigeria are not necessarily anti the state but are just being honest about the fact that it's not where it's meant to be and for people who don't know how to play the game are not safe to go there. People who go there and have a good time usually have people helping them out, showing them what's what and what's not. You could not suggest a westerner to go travelling by themselves in Nigeria - get real.

Look up Gabon. There was almost a revolution there

buzugee:
thats besides the point. the fact is, i like nigeria the way it is. i plan to retire there and i would hope i would not be chased around for bills like they do in the west when i am there. my brother was just hauled into court the other day in london because he did not pay his tv license 

i like nigeria not 100 developed. with 100 percent development comes the problems of development. and that is enslaving the citizens so as to keep the development going. cool if you are under 50. when you are over 50 you want to relax with no stress. i plan to retire in nigeria at the tender age of 45. then i shall spend my days reading and fishing in bar beach 

people like you are part of the problem. your logic is flawed and you would only be a detriment to a society that is truly trying to progress

morpheus24:
its sad how some people let sentimentality cloud their judgement. Remove the overtones of Torture, self righteousness, finger pointing and debate the facts for crying out loud

sometimes the facts are too hard for some to face

no. africa is too big to be a united states

Knight1:
EDUCATION
EDUCATION
EDUCATION

AFRICAN COUNTRIES WANT TO BE LIKE ADVANCED NATIONS WHILE NEGLECTING THE MOST VITAL PART OF CIVILISATION WHICH IS EDUCATION.
the truth is the 'poor reasoning capacity' of african's is caused by the fact that a major percentage of our population remain uneducated.
when a man is educated, thats when he can understand that
A uniform and gun is no license for brutality,
that he can aspire to the same office some desperate politician is offering him small change in place of votes;
he can understand that he has a righ to query the govt and not regard govt performance a s a favor,
he begins to see people in a new light, not by their ethnicity but by intellectual capacity.

YOU CAN BE SURE THAT UNLESS WE EDUCATE ALL OF POPULATION, WE WILL REMAIN BACKWARD. FOR LIFE!!!!

i do agree with this, but doesn't jonathon goodluck have a phD? he still seems as thick as sh it.

education is of course important, and not just in the traditional courses either. nigeria needs a course expansion programme to generate creative thinkers. not just engineers, lawyers and doctors

alongside education we need a shakeup of our morals and values. what we think is right and wrong. many people blame the government but would be as corrupt as those in power if they were in the sam e position. PRIDE and ACCOUNTABILITY is what Nigerians need most. with pride, we would want to rival developed countries and with accountability corruption would not be so entrenched into our system

cap28:
what point are you making here? that Zimbabweans were better off under white minority rule?  what does it matter how black zimbabweans lived before the arrival of whites as compared to how they live now, it is their land how they choose to live on their own land is their business not yours nor any white supremacist's.

Where are you getting your facts from that state that Mugabe killed thousands of blacks? it seems that if there is anyone who is not-so-smart here it is you - how many blacks were tortured, murdered and imprisoned under Iain Smith's racist minority rule - or is that not important to you?

Why dont you reserve your hypocritical  anger and outrage for Tony Blair and George W Bush who most sane people would categorise as evil and not an easy target like Mugabe.  Has Mugabe killed more people than Blair and Bush?  Was it Mugabe who invaded a sovereign nation in order to steal trillions of dollars worth of oil reserves, is it Mugabe who approved the dropping of white phosphorous on innocent men women and children in Iraq, was it Mugabe who imposed terrible economic sanctions against Iraqi civilians leading to the deaths of over 250, 000 children from disease and malnutrition - get your hypocrisy into perspective and stop making a mountain out of molehill.
Bush and Blair are the biggest war criminals of the 21st century and you are here crying over a man who had the courage to face down an international community run by genocidal criminals.
I think you need to get a grip.

And the right people are who exactly? I dont think you understand what you are talking about -on the one hand you criticise Mugabe for standing up now you turn around and say he should fight the right people - pray tell who are these mysterious right people?

But you obvisoulsy havent got your own mindset right thats why you are so quick to condemn a man who has refused to be bullied, intimidated and bamboozled by selfish racist imperialist powers.

What are your suggestions for fighting western imperialism - id like to hear them. Do you even understand how international financial organisations operate? its not enough to say we wont borrow from them, in some cases borrowing becomes inevitable if the price of your export commodities fall, not every country can rely on the money they make from their exports, we live in a global economy in which nations are interdependent, we can't just cut ourselves off from the rest of the world and expect to grow our economies.  How many western nations do you know that operate in isolation? Do you think organisations such as the EU, NATO, IMF, WTO, NAFTA were founded for the fun of it? Do you not understand that they work as economic trade blocs with the objective of furthering their collective economic and military interests?

You keep crowing on and on about China and its economic power with regard to america, dont forget that america is China's major export market - China is actually trapped in a trade relationship with america - they both need each other and also if not for america's huge defence budget it would not be in the type of dire straits its in now,m so get things into perspective and stop crowing about China's magical economic ingenuity, China is in the positon its in today partly  because america borrows so much money from it to fund its gigantic military.

I dont know how you can compare africa  that had to deal with slavery, colonialism and now neo colonialism with Japan and many other asian nations that had less burdens to contend with.  If you want to make a comparison - compare like for like - dont come and talk about  Asian nations that were not subjected to depletion of manpower through the transatlantic slave trade, annexation of land by way of the scamble for africa and subsequent military invasion and occupation by way of colonialism and then ask me why we are not as developed as asian nations.  

You keep making these vacuous statements about being smart - its not enough to just be smart, if you are smart but economically and militarily outnumbered by another group of nations what do you do?

The fact that you are totally ignorant of africa's historical acheivements and contributions to modern history speaks volumes about your knowledge and understanding of africa and its history,  hence your unbeleivable statement that african countries were "illiterate" until the coming of the white man - your ignorance is actually one of the reasons we remain in a backward state, are you saying that african ethnic groups could not read or write in their native languages, had no laws, no social structures, no governments no civilisation?

I dont think you have a clue, i think that your lack of knowledge of your own history has left you with so much inferiority complex that you have what is known as internalised racism or self hatred.

So you haven't done your research. I'm not applauding Ian Smith though am I? Don't let your anger cloud this debate because I don't want this to disintegrate into meaninless tat for tat. How can you seriously say that Mugabe didn't kill members of a rival ethnic group for years? It's an event that has been video documented - like i said watch a doc and see the slaughter for yourself. I think you need to calm down because your anger is clouding your argument and it spills over into your posts. Lol your posts sound like you're screaming at me. clam down a little

Now please tell me where I said Mugabe should fight anything. I used 'africa' and 'we'. Also I said Mugabe was evil because of the genocide and ethnic cleasnsing that he was part of NOT because he got rid of the whites. Please read this sentence again because i won;t repeat it another time. And I know Bush and Blair have a lot to answer for but this is not a compare and contrast lol - this post and thread is about MUgabe?

Please see where I have bolded. Exactly they both NEED eachother. no nation is an island. it's give and take. that is how international economy works. But africa doesn't have much to give in the global market. india was colonised too but it's growing! africa is NOT, it's shrinking in projections for economic growth and global influence

Read my last post again because you seem to have missed key points. I have already said how africa can fight imperialist powers. work with the west while simultaneously building up own interests. nigeria is an exampke of one african country that could easily do that but won't! that is not THEIR (the white man's )fault. wake up. of course i know how international economy works - it seems that from your support of mugabe you don't. it would have been obvious to most people of true leader ability that his actions would have made zimbabwe vulnerable to sanctions. ZIDERA is what many could have predicted -it's not rocket scieence. he, like so many africans wanted to show that he's the big man (nigeria leaders for example do this with stealing billions) and in the process ended up being kicked to rights. not very smart.

now answer me these - what continent are those organisations run by? how small is that continent compared to the giant that is africa? why is it that they run those organisations and not others? i think it's time to look at ourselves and ask questions about why we are not upto the same level as europeans. and don't mention colonisation because there was life before that. what were we doing? of course you will rant and rave without really thinking about any of these questions but i thot i'd throw them out there

please see my second bolded statement. that is what i said and the other parts of that sentence are things you made up. please keep to what i orginally wrote otherwise this gets silly. please give examples of what black african nations have ever had their own writing systems. thank you

i actually don't have an inferiority complex which is why i am not angry. i see things how they are and i know that africa is still capable of becoming an amazing place. yes, things have to chang but i know that we can do it. that's not a complex, that's self belief. i am not too busy blaming everyone else to see that.  we need clear minded people to pull the continent forward. not people stupidly trying to get their own back on evil whitey

Not at all

[quote author=EzeUche_ link=topic=594077.msg7616900#msg7616900 date=1296165621]Actually it is looting and chump change. Nigeria only get rent from the extraction of oil. We do get pennies for what the oil is really worth. If you consider that a lot, then you must be high on some strong weed. Even our oil industry is not where it suppose to be.

Shell has been despoiling Nigeria even before independence. And the worst part, is that you act like it is your oil. That oil money belongs to the Niger Delta. Not the rest of Nigeria.[/quote]Then should take back our own industries and own futures back into our own hands. Why is our own oil industry not where it is supposed to be? is that also the fault of outside elements?

Whoever owns the oil is not really the issue here. Nigeria still earns an outrageous amount of money for it. Why don't you blame the people who are not using that money to improve the country?

morpheus24:
I guess we need to do the same to idolators( people who chase money),
Gluttons,
Wrathful people
Greedy people
lustful people

Eh anyone who has comitted one of the deadly sins is satanic and should be murderd immediately right? I bet you after that only about 1000 people will remain

Nonsense reasoning!

Unbelievable right? I give up for the night

well obviously being poor and healthy. you can't enjoy anything if you're very sick

morpheus24:
Here we go with the Imperialist "WESTERN PUPPET" Propaganda arguement again.

"The revolution will not be televised".

On the other hand seeing this is the 21st Century "maybe it will" lol

seriously i'm so sick of it. it's like we're helpless babies. where is the self belief with us? we've never seemed to have it but we need to start from now. there's no excuse in this day and age to cry victim again and again

now you're just being silly

Pennywise:
You have inflation of a kind we have not seen b4. Wholesale thievery by public servants is putting untold pressure on the naira through capital flight (let me sound a bit like an economist). Darlin what do you think will happen to the economy of this country a few yrs down the road if this goes unchecked? Zimbabwe will be better off.

well of course the poverty in this country will be unthinkable. nigeria is set to become one of the 5 most populous countries in the next few decades and resources will be spread even more thinly among the people than they are now. something needs to give

i assume you have done your research on how well, or otherwise native Zimbabweans were living before the whites took over? and again how they have been living since the whites left. also, you seem to ignore the fact that he killed thousands of BLACKS over decades. it's like the muslim extremists yelling about the evil westerner when they kill their fellow muslims in droves. reta rded.

also, you get me wrong. i am not saying that an African leader finally getting rid of the shackles of imperialism is a bad thing. i just cannot applaud mugabe because of WHO he is. i look at the broader picture. we are not talking about just any leader who got rid of apartheid and white oppression (by the way he didn't actually get rid of wht oppression after all, did he?) in his country. I am talking about MUGABE. to say 'no leader is perfect' when we're talking about such an evil entity is just ridiculous and makes you seem jaded. please watch any documentary about his rule and pay particular images to scenes of massacre and see if it doesn't appeal to your human side - but then you may say that that is all white man propaganda.

I have read the contents of ZIDERA. Yes, the western powers have fought a dirty came since the beginning, and of course they are not going to want to relinquish control and sovereignty. but we must learn to play the game, and if so fight dirty against the RIGHT PEOPLE. i don't know much about the politics of countries outside of Nigeria, but in Nigeria we cause so many problems for OURSELVES. when we can get our mindset right, then we can start to figure out how to fight against the system that was set up by and for the west. africa is a large continent - we should be in a position to lend help to fellow african countries, thus easing the reliance on western financial organisations. you can't complain about their presence in african countries and then at the same time whine about how they won't lend financial help to us. it's give and take. we need to be in a position where we can call the shots and have THEM relying on US. for example, any moves that china makes now can have dramatic effects on the WORLD economy - and this was through their genius. how many african countries can say that?

bottom line is, if we;re smart enough we can get out of many of the strongholds we are in. what has asia got that africa hasn't? i'll tell you - they had certain things from way back in history that africa didn't. japan was very advanced for a long time. of course not in the way it is now, but it could hold its own around the time of the industrial revolution. why do you think they were able to launch an attack in WW2? let me tell you, african countries were on the whole illiterate when the europeans arrived. that's a key marker of a sheer lack of development. south america, india, china , japan, arabia etc had their own writing systems. where were ours? adn pls dont mention the egyptians.

it was a completely different playing field. africa didn;t have a clue. one thing i do know is that as humans we are meant to learn from each other. and learn quick. do what other people have done before, but do it better. africa can't even seem to do this in the modern world. there's just a lack of enterprise and ambition.

you talk about 'overthrowing' like we are in another time. the world isn't like that anymore. you have to be smarter than that now. work with the powers that be while simultaneously building your own power up. the west will always play their game. even the 'china threat' is largely a construct of the western media to send the world on premature high alert of a country that is rapidly rising in economic power, but in reality still has a high population of poor citizens. they are scared because china has them by the neck. china has learnt to play the game. china knows what it is doing even though it is still very much a DEVELOPING country

we don't. end of

no

ShangoThor:
[size=20pt]Solution precis - Fix the State[/size]

1. Start a petition online and all over Nigeria, target Southern Nigeria (cooperate)

2. Publish results, embarass the government internally and globally, use the global media, lobby the UN and Super Powers.

3. Demand the implementation of Political and Economic Structural changes in the State (True Federalism, Separation of Powers
Independence of the Judiciary, Rule of Law, Transparent Government, Independent and entrenched Taxation body with published
figures.

4. Start a class action against or sue the FG at the International Court of Justice, Hague for the dereliction of duties
to her citizens regarding not guaranteeing human rights and property (JOS).

5. Assuming all of the above ends up fruitless =====> we opt for "OPTION B", which is point 6 below

6. Form 1 major alliance across the South and parts of the Middle Belt in favour of lobbying the UN for a "UN sponsored referendum"
regarding the secession of Southern Nigeria.

we can't even register people properly. how the hell are we going to organise an honest petition? and using the internet? come on now,

you're already assuming that we'll 'embarass the govt' - predicting the results are we?

what makes you thunk that the UN want to take on this task? what's in it for them?

answer these questions

We would do so much better if we could find a way of working together and going forward as we are now. A large country like nigeria, which is growing at a rapid rate would be a more powerful force than smaller states. also, this would just not work. we just need to change our mind sight. split nigeria up and the separate states will find something else to fight about within their own borders. ethnic division, as such may cease but this won't get rid of greed and the poor mentality that nigerians across the country have today.

houvest:
Pity you do not know what faith is. Where then do you stand in your espousals? Sample of your posts here:

While acknowledging some good points you made, we should guard against fostering pessemistic views that may end up killing the little hope for people who wish to try to straighten their lives even while living under a bungling government so selfish it hurts.

You are promoting hope and denying faith. Contradictory.

FORGET about hope and faith or whatever flimsy notions that do nothing other than make you feel good temporarily. i'm pulling my hair out here. we should criticise and criticise and then criticise some more until we get what we want - which is a stable country where most (if not all) have a decent standard of living. let's just open our eyes and face reality. with all the churches and mosques in nigeria people are suffering. forget about hope for now and let's bring in some action - starting with HONEST debate

and btw CAP can you please give me your sources that tell me which african autocrats are being controlled by 'western puppet leaders' and how? or a clear theory will do. i hear this being said a lot but no one can seem to back it up.

cap28:
The first thing id like to correct is your definition of racism - racism is about having a superiority complex AND having the power and resources to back up your prejudices or superiority complexes.  The fact that  a white person dislikes you for being black or feels superior to you because you are black is not the issue, the real issue is that he can actually do something that will adversely affect your life BECAUSE you are black ie like not hiring you, not allowing you to live in a certain area, not giving you access to proper health care, having you locked up in prison for somethign that a white person would get a fine for - etc  THAT'S RACISM -

here are a few of my personal observations:

Almost everywhere you go in the world you will find blacks on the bottom rung of society - from europe to america (north and south) to the carribean.

In most parts of africa the majority of black people live under repressive autocratic corrupt regimes controlled by western controlled puppet leaders.

In europe, north america, south america and the carribean you have in place a system of racial hierarchy with blacks always placed at the bottom.

In all the above scenarios i have mentioned, black people are always at the bottom of society and subsequently end up as victims of racism partly because we do not have political and economic power and partly because being black has now come to be universally accepted as a symbol of underacheivement, poverty and backwardness.

However i do agree with you that the only way out is for us to build up our nations in africa so that that stigma is removed and like China we become the new pretenders to the throne.  

Yes you are right Obama now has to go to China cap in hand knowing full well that China holds over 1 trillion USD in american treasury bonds, he has to be careful about the way he handles trade negotiations with China and that is commendable on China's part.  That is where we need to be, but ive said this before - are we willing to make the sacrifices that China made in order to acheive that goal?

please check where i highlighted bold to see a more accurate definition of racism.

now, what baffled me is your ridiculous support of a treacherous autocrat - just because he got rid of that oh so evil force called 'the white man'. you know what? at the end of the day they saw what was not being used to it's full potential (e.g africa) and took it. yes it was bad and unfair but so is life. yes, blacks are at the bottom of the rung worldwide but can you not see that that is our fault? not theirs. we lost the race. however, it's not too late. empires rise and fall and a lot of history is yet to be written. it could take 50 years tops for nigeria to become a superpower itself. yes. that is not such an outrageous claim. our population is rocketing and more importantly the band of working age (18-50) is rising. china's workforce age is actually shrinking. with this manpower, a good governnemt, a change in values, and hopefully neighbouring african countries that are also developing, nigeria could be unstoppable. who cares about wht south african women who think they're too good for black people? i care more about black govts that are allowing their own people to starve!! or mugabes who's brutally murder thousands!! which one do you think is more evil?