₦airaland Forum

A liitle about my experience.

I sought the baptism of Holy Spirit for some years before I eventually got the experience. After I got the experience, all I could say was just like two words. I kept on using opportunity of spiritual meetings to exercise myself in it and my "vocabulary" began to expand. Later, I could initiate it almost any time I want to pray - once I ask for spiritual utterance as the spirit wills, I launch into it. I use it to spend more time in prayer as well because I don't know what more to keep saying in understanding.

Speaking in tongues keep us in communion with God. It brings spiritual edification because words keep flowing out of our spirit man. There is also a divine energy that comes with such spiritual utterance.

We have passed the stage of arguing whether God exist or not because we already have the witness in ourselves. We have passed the stage of arguing whether we can pray in tongues or not because we already have the witness in ourselves. Surely, there is no need for us arguing with anyone on what purposes the tongues can or cannot be used for because we that have the witness in ourselves already know that.

I have also noticed that praying in tongues sharpen our spiritual gifts as well. And I think the reason why this is so is because when you speak in tongues, you are engaging the Holy Spirit in utterance. The more the Holy Spirit is engaged, the more His gifts/workings are energized for expression.

The world goes about enjoying their carnality. Aren't Christians, who are born of the spirit meant to enjoy their spirituality? Yes, they are.

Ephesians 5:18-19 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

That says something about singing in tongues

It's okay, whatever you think it refers to. In fact, most of the benefits of praying/speaking in tongues can only be testified to by those that are engaging in it. Perhaps, I will share some of my experiences soon.

MuttleyLaff:
What is "pray in tongues"?

What tongue is it that, is a very power weapon of warfare?

Please what are you referring to with a comment like this?

I hope you have seen someone speaking in tongues before. That is what it looks like.

I believe you have also read about the incidence that happened on the day of Pentecost to the followers of Christ after Jesus had risen.

Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Jesus had initially told His disciples about it before He left the earth physically.

Mark 16:17
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

So, the pentecost experience was the first experience recorded in the Bible and up till today, people still get filled in the Holy Ghost and speak with other tongues.

However, you can desire to speak it more and more and engage in it so often that you speak it effortlessly whenever you want to pray and can even sing in tongues, as "oyeludef" has said

Hear what Apostle Paul said concerning his own life of prayer

1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Praying in tongues helps in so many other ways spiritually but I will just share one now.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

It is indeed a great blessing to pray in tongues.

oyeludef:
tongue is a very power weapon of warfare. I Now sing in tongues more, instead of singing wit understanding

Good to hear your testimony, bro. I pray more people understand, receive and use this great tool of spiritual communion the more.

Actually this is a thread for spiritual warfare. Other things may be dealt with elsewhere. It is for those who know what prayer means and believe the efficacy of prayer or at least would want to know.

What keeps you longer in the place of prayer?

What can you say about your prayer life at the moment.

This is a place for those who pray in tongues and intend to, to discuss their prayer life and use their prayer tool in some joint intercessions.

@ Ihedinobi 2

From your last response, I can see again that you are just ignoring the obvious truth and interpreting the Bible to suit your own assumed truth. I can go on picking your errors here and there. Instead of you to seek clarification on a question or statement you don't understand, you rather love to assume the other person is confused because you think you know it all. But the truth is you do not know as you ought to know. Here are my conclusions once again and they remain my stand on tithing.

1. Surely, members of the church have some financial responsibilities to meet: supporting the man of God, supporting the work of God (eg evangelism), giving to the needy and poor.
2. It is good that churches create a system, means or platform for members to perform this good work of giving effectively and those in charge should be faithful with expenses of peoples' givings.
3. Tithing, whether correctly or incorrectly so called, has become the most popular system adopted by churches, perhaps because of its root in the old testament.
4. God always rewards a faithful giver for a good cause regardless of the name these givings are tagged.
5. The New Testament standard of giving is obviously higher than that of the old testament if we really understand the principles on which both stand. Therefore, a church may adopt a platform of giving other than tithing but to eliminate tithing without a better substitution will do the members of the body of Christ no good.

And with that, I'm out of this discussion.

Please, tell me the attitude of Jesus Christ to the doctrines of the pharisees here:
Matthew 23:23-24 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

What was the attitude of Jesus to the word of God there? Was He also neglecting the truth when He said you are straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel? What was Jesus saying there? You left the serious matters of spirituality and make a big issue out of nothing. How can you say paying tithe is a sin? That is crossing the boundary. You may present the truth you know but it will also be unjustified to call what is not a sin a sin. Why did you not advocate for frewill giving that encourages giving ALL. Is it not a truth in the Bible? Out of those that are against paying tithe, how many of them have actually sat down and find out what makes the members of the first church to be giving their all freely and think of incorporating that into our churches. You can't be so sure that God didn't allow tithing in New Testament because there are still roots of the old in the new. For example, the 10 commandments are still summed up in the New testament rule of Love. And according to your definition of tithing, this that churches are practicing is not even tithing of the old form, it is more or less 10% free will offering. Or do they reserve any punishment for these that don't pay it? Let me tell you that God loves and honours those who still hang on their faith on meeting up with this standard. Let's speak and do as those that will be judged by the law of liberty (James 2:12). I have nothing to benefit here as you are assuming because since the issue of tithing has been raised sometimes ago, my stand has always been the same. I am neither for nor against but I perceive mischief in the while thing and the facts which I love people to bear in mind have already been expressed in my previous conclusions.

Let me say this serious matter. Being a Christian means being born again-of water and of spirit. Meanwhile, Jesus told those that were already alive that He came to give life and give it abundantly. Meaning that He was not talking about the natural life which they already have but a spiritual life in which our new born spirit can be alive to God. This is so because, God who is a spirit need to communicate with His sons who are also spiritual in nature for the flesh is dead to the voice of the spirit. The spirit of God communicates with our renewed spirit-that second man, born not of the flesh but of the spirit. Hence the spirit of God will communicate to us when we are open to Him for communication.

"(There is a standard they are following, that is what I called rule. Jesus said something about selling all, now they have decided to practice it, isn't that a standard of giving 100%? Nobody needs to force them, they are all following that rule cheerfully based on love and unity. Nothing else suggest otherwise in the Bible.)

This is the part that is made up. It is a logical jump to go from "they all did it" to "they all HAD to do it". "

You still don't get my explanation here and it seems you are enforcing your own interpretation on what I said. But since you get this:
"Acts 2:44-46 says
ALL THAT BELIEVED...
1. Were together
2. Had all things in common
3. SOLD THEIR POSSESSIONS AND GOODS"
That's okay.



"(Well, as I have said, those that are advocating the removal of tithe should as well advocate for a better substitute for it)

Which is still an unfortunate position to hold in the face of clear Scriptural teaching. The Bible has replaced tithing with free will donations to the welfare of all the people that the Lord. If that is not good enough for you, that is a major problem."

Tell me what is good in telling people to stop paying tithe when they are not made to realize they still have financial responsibilities in those areas and the new method of going about it? Will it be practiced in a way the church will be made better by it? Knowing fully well that we are to step up our level of giving.



"(So, if I am giving for the purposes highlighted previously, God will not accept because I called it a tithe? Has God ordained or assigned a special name to our giving that will affect its validity? My brother this is New Testament era.)

Ignorance is not much of an excuse in spiritual matters. We have a responsibility to learn the Truth and obey it. But deliberate ignorance is worse by far. YOU KNOW what the tithe is. If you choose to act like you don't, you are solely responsible for the consequences."

Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here. You yourself agreed " tithing" as practiced is not what it was in the old testament. So, it's not as if it is the original old testament practice but it is still a way of giving. Even many still default on 10%. The truth is that God will still reward everyone according to their level of faithfulness. Is "tithing" a sin? Some churches may even be preaching against tithe, not because of their love for truth but so as to attract congregations and cause divisions. Does tithing or not tithing make a church to raise more or less spiritual christians? Some will even jump in the bandwagon of such churches because they are not ready to give at all.



"(And why are the ministers occupying a special place? Is it not because of the work of God that they are doing? What will make the people of God count the provision for the work of God of any less priority? Nothing.)

I'm not sure what you are saying here. I listed those responsibilities to point out that nothing is said of "evangelism" in the Bible concerning this matter."

I will not need to go further on that.

Acts 2:44-46 says
ALL THAT BELIEVED...
1. Were together
2. Had all things in common
3. SOLD THEIR POSSESSIONS AND GOODS

"All that believed"...How am I making that up?
Perhaps, you don't understand what I meant by rule of giving all...these people are bound in unity. They are united in purpose as well as in acts. Are you saying it is not possible for people to follow a set standard out of love without feeling forced to do it. There is a standard they are following, that is what I called rule. Jesus said something about selling all, now they have decided to practice it, isn't that a standard of giving 100%? Nobody needs to force them, they are all following that rule cheerfully based on love and unity. Nothing else suggest otherwise in the Bible.

"The Bible lists only three responsibilities (see the passages I posted earlier):
i. the pastor-teacher's material needs
ii. the material needs of fellow believers
iii. the unbelieving poor
...in that order of priorities."

And why are the ministers occupying a special place? Is it not because of the work of God that they are doing? What will make the people of God count the provision for the work of God of any less priority? Nothing.

"It is unfortunate that you don't care whether this system is what it is said to be or not. It is not tithing at all. Its popularity does not mean anything spiritually, except for ill...as it has demonstrated so clearly for a while now. It has NO roots in the Old Testament."

Well, as I have said, those that are advocating the removal of tithe should as well advocate for a better substitute for it.

"God is not fooled by this kind of logic. If you are not doing what He commands, you get no points. If you are doing what you think He should approve, you still get no points."

So, if I am giving for the purposes highlighted previously, God will not accept because I called it a tithe? Has God ordained or assigned a special name to our giving that will affect its validity? My brother this is New Testament era.

"I should probably point out that the principles we are given to live by would work out great if all believers made spiritual growth and production a priority."

That's the main thing.

The Bible did not in any way suggest there was any exception to the rule of GIVING ALL unless we just want to assume it.
Acts 2:44-46 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Anyway, this is my conclusion
1. Surely, members of the church have some financial responsibilities to meet: supporting the man of God, supporting the work of God (eg evangelism), giving to the needy and poor.
2. It is good that churches create a system, means or platform for members to perform this good work of giving effectively and those in charge should be faithful with expenses of peoples' givings.
3. Tithing, whether correctly or incorrectly so called, has become the most popular system adopted by churches, perhaps because of its root in the old testament.
4. God always rewards a faithful giver for a good cause regardless of the name these givings are tagged.
5. The New Testament standard of giving is obviously higher than that of the old testament if we really understand the principles on which both stand. Therefore, a church may adopt a platform of giving other than tithing but to eliminate tithing without a better substitution will do the members of the body of Christ no good.

I really like the model of the first church in which they used money as a defence. Those that give need not worry or get insecured because they are also beneficiaries of their giving. Those that didn't have also are secured. I wish the church can institute something along this line.

Ecclesiastes 7:12
For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it.

" The tithe has a specific meaning. It wasn't 10% of your monetary income. It was 10% of all your agricultural produce (in both plants and animals) or the monetary equivalent of that 10% plus 20% of the value if you insisted for any reason on paying money instead. "

If that is tithe, then I guess what the pastors are talking about is different. I don't hear the additional 20%


"Because the New Covenant only commands free will gifts to these people. There is no proportion commanded or any specific patterns or rituals involved. "

In view of the above, what can we say about the Apostles first church in which they sell all and bring the proceeds at Apostle's feet for equal sharing among all. It seems 100% was their gifts and those that broke the pattern paid for it with their lives. Though they It seems they also had an arrangement of distribution in place-not just random giving.
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Acts 6:1, 3 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.



They were doing it cheerfully and at the same time maintaining a particular set standard of giving

Acts 2:44-46 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

ihedinobi2:
@Pasqual, we can never accomplish God's Will by using the enemy's tools and strategies.

That means that you can never do good by doing wrong. Or teach people to do right by teaching them lies.

We ought to be generous to our teachers, to fellow believers and to unbelievers in difficulty. That is what the Scriptures teach us. They do not teach that we must give 10% of our income to pastors or preachers whether they ask for it or not.

We have a responsibility to help each other in our material difficulties. We have a responsibility to share in all good things with our teachers (Gal 6:6). But we have NO responsibility or obligation to pay any tithe to anyone. That is unscriptural and is actually blasphemy in many cases.

The points made here are related to some questions I had wanted to ask.

Suppose, due to my responsibility to the pastor-teacher, the brethren in need and indigent unbelievers, I decide to be giving out 10% of my income, freely out of my own volition.
1. Where/who will be the best place and person to pay to
2. Will my giving be categorized as tithe
3. Will it be acceptable/legitimate considering the framework of the new testament.

Adieza:
There is a saying. He who controls your food and weapons controls your destiny. Many Africans are going to die in the coming years because they are eating Milk substitute thinking it is milk. This is how it works.

Step 1:
Milk that is produced in Europe have the milk fat striped out from it. The milk fat is the milky nutritional part of milk. This part of milk is used to make cheese and butter in Europe for the people there to enjoy.

Step 2:
The next step is to take palm oil that is imported from Africa strip it apart and take the good part out of it. The other part is added to the Milk waste from step 1 and dried to create cheap milk powder.

Oops, food for Africa. It is white, It is powder and it looks like milk so the Africans think it is milk. The only problem is. It is shitty milk with no nutrition. You can drink a gallon of it and you will never get any nutrition.

The man don start again o. They will shout.

You see, we must start to grow and process our own food or we will be extinct. It is only a matter of time.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=474538793052234&id=158338594672257

Cow's milk consists of solids (milkfat, protein, lactose and minerals) in water, with water making up about 87% by volume.

Milkfat therefore is just a component of milk and its removal or substitution does not take away the other nutrients like proteins, lactose, vitamins and minerals.

Full cream milk is a milk that contains its original milkfat but milkfat, like other animal fats has its own advantages and disadvantages in the body. Hence, Filled milk (in which the milk fat has been substituted with a vegetable fat) or skimmed milk (that has little or no fat at all) have their own advantage over the full cream milk. It's about what kind of fat to take or not to take, It doesn't mean the other nutrients have been removed. Therefore, they are nutritious.

Cow's milk consists of solids (milkfat, protein, lactose and minerals) in water, with water making up about 87% by volume.

Milkfat therefore is just a component of milk and its removal or substitution does not take away the other nutrients like proteins, lactose, vitamins and minerals.

Full cream milk is a milk that contains its original milkfat but milkfat, like other animal fats has its own advantages and disadvantages in the body. Hence, Filled milk (in which the milk fat has been substituted with a vegetable fat) or skimmed milk (that has little or no fat at all) have their own advantage over the full cream milk. It's about what kind of fat to take or not to take, It doesn't mean the other nutrients have been removed. Therefore, they are nutritious.

To all these I will only say that we may try as we may to rationalize and evaluate from the human perspective, what is possible or not but that will not take us anywhere. Remove the power and grace of God from the equation, and Christianity becomes as dead as any other religion. But with God, all things are possible. Done with the conversation. Have a nice time.

ihedinobi2:
But did Abraham succeed at obeying that command? See Genesis 20 for one possible example of his own very human failures.



And the Spirit of Christ said through James:

James 3:2
[2]For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well...

Which is why He also says through John

1 John 1:8-10
[8]If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
[9]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.



And the Lord said this to Job too:

Job 38:1-2
[1]Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
[2]"Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?




Perfection here means maturity. It is not the same as sinlessness. Even a believer as mature as Paul was stumbled every now and then. Peter too was a very mature believer and was with Paul one of the greatest apostles but he too stumbled every now and then.

We ought to strive for maturity by all means. But sinlessness is not a wise goal to assume that we can achieve while we still live in a body of sin.



As I began to say above, sinlessness is not a wise goal to assume that we can achieve in this body of sin. We will continue to stumble until we put off this flesh and put on the new body from above. This does not mean that we ought not to resist sin. We must. The more we love the Lord the less we will want to sin against Him. This is true and worthy of all belief. But we cannot reach sinlessness in this body. We must receive a new body to be completely free of sin.

Insisting on believing that we can be completely free of sin in this body will only lead to self-righteousness and hypocrisy worthy of the Pharisees. We will be tempted to start redefining sin to suit ourselves. But if we accept that we live in a body of sin from which we hunger to be delivered, then we will also maintain a running battle for sanctification and continue to maintain a humble hope of Resurrection that glorifies the Lord we love.

My question was not about whether there is more than one fulfilment or not, neither is it about whether blood and fire accompanied it or not, but that if Peter rightly make reference to that statement, what will disqualify our own time now as part of the last days that is supposed to witness the manifestation of the spirit.

Talking of ratifying authority. Do those that proclaim the gospel now have no authority to be ratified? Didn't Jesus give them the authority? Jesus said the signs will follow those that believe, not just the Apostles alone, or is the great commission limited to them alone?

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

"We walk by faith not by sight..."Are the manifestations of the spirit not also meant to produce faith, especially for the unbelievers?

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Are the workings of the spirit not a product of faith? Is it not by faith that the gifts of the spirit are operated?

On 1 Corinthians 13:
Yes you yourself can see the obvious. You can see it all over the chapter even right from the last verse of chapter 12 up to the very conclusion in the last verse of chapter 13. But you show me where in that chapte, the completion of canon scriptures is referred to as that complete thing. And if it is not in that chapter, show me where it is elsewhere in the Bible.

You couldn't even provide references to support your claim that workings of the spirit will be seized in between the establishment of the church and tribulation. You are deliberately putting in what the Bible is not saying and overriding the obvious truth with your assumptions; interpreting the Bible just to support your unfounded doctrine.

I think I don't need to go further anymore. I'm done with the discussion. The truth is there for all to see, as many as desired to see and the evidence too abounds.

ihedinobi2:
This is the full quote:

Joel 2:28-32 NIV
“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

As you can see, in the context, there is much more involved than what happened at the Pentecost. This is one reason that in my most immediate response to Pasqual, I explained that this prophecy of Joel's, like many others in the Old Testament, had more than one fulfillment planned by the Lord.

Peter correctly taught that the outpouring of the Spirit at the Pentecost was a fulfillment of the Joel prophecy. But that does not mean that that was the only fulfillment planned. Just like John the Baptist was a fulfillment of the prophecy that Elijah would return to prepare Israel for the Messiah's First Advent and yet Elijah is still going to come back during the Tribulation for the preparation of the nation of Israel for the Messiah's Second Advent, in the same manner, the Spirit's outpouring at Pentecost was also just a foretaste of what will happen during the Millennium when the Lord Jesus will take total control of the world and rule over all the nations from Jerusalem.

Right now, we don't see "blood and fire and billows of smoke" or the sun going completely dark and the moon turning to blood. These are supposed to accompany the outpouring of the Spirit that results in prophecy and prophetic dreams.

In the days of the apostles, the signs were given with the outpouring of the Spirit for the reasons that I have already explained:

>> to ratify the authority of those who proclaimed the Gospel to unbelievers

>> to ratify the authority of those who taught the Church and revealed previously unknown truths about God's Plan, for example, the Book of Revelation and the other writings of the New Testament.

We were called to walk by faith and not by sight. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of the Lord. The signs and miracles were necessary until the Bible was completed and available to Christian assemblies. Once it was, there was no more place for proving through miraculous signs that any given person was truly speaking for God. You only had to read the Bible to know if they were or weren't.




There are many Scriptural truths that are not stated outright. In fact, there are very few that are stated outright. We have to study closely and follow the leading of a truly gifted and prepared Bible teacher in order to actually begin to see much that is actually in the Bible.

An easy example is the Trinity. Even today, there are Jews who take issue with Christianity because we believe that God is a Trinity. They think that "Hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is One God" excludes every possibility of a Trinity. But it is a rather obvious teaching from the Scriptures even though it is never obviously spelt out anywhere.

In the same vein, it is rarely a very useful question to ask that anybody show you where things are stated outright in the Bible. Many things are. But the vast majority of Christian beliefs and teachings are hidden from a cursory glance at the Scriptures. Finding them requires work, very hard work.




I encourage you to do the same. Read it with an open mind as well and see if verses eight to ten could really have been saying anything other than the removal of prophecy and speaking in foreign languages miraculously because something perfect comes to replace them.

If you believe that this perfect thing that comes to replace them is Love/Charity, well, again, you would have to agree that they have been replaced.

Love does have a place in this discussion but not in the way you appear to understand it. The sign-gifts gripped the Corinthian believers' imagination with a fever. Just like a lot of believers today are doing, they were measuring themselves against each other in terms of their possession and exercise of sign-gifts like speaking in tongues. This, in fact, was why Paul had to defend his apostleship to them because they had become captivated by smooth-talking, trickish people who presented themselves as "super-apostles" who were superior even to the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So, Paul had to teach them that sign-gifts did not matter as much as they thought it did. What mattered was spiritual growth and production for the Lord. And that can only happen when a believer loves the Lord enough to want to listen to Him, believe Him and obey Him and then also do his best to help his fellow believers to learn to know the Lord, believe Him and obey Him too. This is the work of love in our lives. But you will notice that we can only know the Lord - and therefore believe and obey Him - by being diligent to grow in the Truth of His Word.

So, when Paul says that the sign-gifts will pass away when the perfect comes, he could only be talking - in that context, that is - about the completed Word of Truth through which our love for the Lord and His Church can be demonstrated.

But as I said, that was a Scriptural principle that quite obviously applies to more than the completed canon of the Scriptures.




That is actually false. The Bible was completed and known in its full canon by the churches before the last apostle died. There was no confusion about what the canon was by the end of the first century.

What the Roman Catholic Church did was of little moment.

It is true that not everyone has a Bible. But today, the miracle is that there is not a heart that thirsts for the Truth that the Lord does not satisfy. He does not need to use sign-gifts to get the Truth to people when He can use willing believers who want to take the Truth to everyone who is willing to have it to do so. The complete Bible exists. Willing gifted and prepared Bible teachers and evangelists exist as well. These are God's Tools today in addition to mature believers who possess myriad gifts that aid the teachers and evangelists to do their work superbly.




As I said before, it was not only apostles and prophets who experienced the miraculous. Philip - as Pasqual here pointed out - was an evangelist. Stephen was a deacon (although he was a Bible teacher too). Cornelius was still outside the Church when an angel visited him. So, it isn't because apostles and prophets were removed from the Church that those sign-gifts stopped functioning. The sign-gifts were removed together with the apostles and prophets for the same reason - the Bible is now complete and accessible to anyone who truly hungers for the Truth.

The Bible teacher too learns from other Bible teachers until he comes to spiritual maturity and has learned how to handle the Word of Truth correctly so that he can find truths in the Scriptures that other believers entrusted to him can benefit from. There is no place anymore for sign-gifts in that process. It is partly a test of how much we want the Truth that we have to work hard now to learn it without the benefit of divine dreams and visions.




Per your first question, I am. Per your second, as I said before, the Bible was the immediate issue that Paul was referring to but it was a spiritual principle and applies to more than the perfection of the Canon.

Per your third, that is your own argument. I do not believe that the cessation of sign-gifts and the offices of the apostle and prophet means that the Holy Spirit is no longer present or that " His workings" are no longer needed. It is still His Work to give the gift of teaching and evangelism and a vast number of other unique gifts that the Church needs to grow itself to maturity. It is still His Work to help each believer learn, remember and apply the truths of the Bible. That He does not use visions and divine dreams anymore does not mean anything like what you have decided to conclude on your own. That is not my argument and even so, it is a false argument. The sign-gifts are not the limits of the Lord's miraculous ability.

ihedinobi2:
Sorry, didn't see this question before.

We are commanded to be perfect because we are supposed to prove our calling and our choice of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Master by striving to be like Him. But we will never be perfect with a body of sin. What counts though is that we demonstrate our desire for perfection by striving moment by moment, day by day to actually be perfect and confessing every sin and every failure so that we maintain fellowship with the Lord in fervent hope of a day when we will exchange this sinful body for a perfect, eternally sinless one.

There are forms of perfection which definitely do not apply to us while on earth, but to walk perfectly before God is possible.

God said to Abraham:

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.


Christ said

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Even, concerning Job, this was recorded about him

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Lastly, the ultimate goal of the church is perfection

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

God won't be saying all these if it is unattainable. We can't strive for it if we don't first believe it is possible. Let's not assume it is impossible, but believe it is possible and then strive for it.

Hello house,
Couldn't come back online until now

@ihedinobi2

Peter said concerning the outpouring of he spirit at Pentecost that this is a fulfilment of Joel's prophecy concerning the last days. Are we no longer in the last days for the manifestations of the spirit which include dreams and visions to be ceased?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Is there any scriptural reference that states that the manifestations of the spirit will be seized at some point in time during the last days?

Please, read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 again with an open mind, and you will see that the writer is not making any reference to completion of Bible as the perfect which is coming but saying that Love/Charity is the perfect way.

By the way, the Bible as we have it was not compiled until around 400 AD and even up till now, some still don't have access to it. What will now be the suitable time for the Holy Spirit to stop His work

You said the offices of the Apostles and Prophets are no more functioning. Are dreams and visions, gifts of the spirit specifically for these offices for them to be seized along with the offices. Or what gifts are left for the evangelists, pastors, teachers to use. At least teachers will need revelation/understanding of the word of God, not just mere reading and carnal interpretation. The evangelist too will need some signs to witness to unbelievers that they may believe.

Are you sure these gifts are truly not needed anymore? That the Bible is the perfect which is to come? And there is no need for workings of the Holy Spirit which means He is not present or why would the spirit be present, if His workings are no longer needed.

ihedinobi2:
That does not quite follow. Each person has different priorities and concerns. So our dreams are different. I will dream of whatever has most occupied my thoughts and energized my emotions at night and you will dream of whatever has occupied your thoughts and energized your emotions at night. It is entirely possible that someone comes to a crossroads about questions of eternity and hears the Gospel at this critical juncture and that leads to very vivid and troubled dreams about his choices and he as a result accords the Gospel its due respect and is saved. This too is a work of God. It need not be a revelation from the Lord Himself any more than the Lord needs to appear from Heaven for everyone who is saved just because He did it for the apostle Paul. Again, it does not follow that that the Hand of the Lord is removed just because the dream was not a divine revelation.

Of course I agree that the Spirit is the One Who convicts us to repent and turn to the Lord. But it need not be in this manner. His Ways are myriad and varied. I feel sure that you yourself was saved under different circumstances. I personally was saved when I was so young that I don't even remember how it happened. Then several years later, my salvation was confirmed to me under circumstances that were significantly different from your friend's. There need not be a dream or a vision or anything of that sort for the Lord to have been involved.

But this doesn't mean we should exclude dreams and visions. God can use any method including dreams and visions

ihedinobi2:
Yes, I do believe that the Lord still calls us into offices in the Church. But I do believe as well that some offices have been retired. The offices of the apostle and the prophet have been retired because the foundation of the Church has been laid:

Ephesians 2:20
[20]having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone

1 Corinthians 3:10
[10]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.


There are still works to do even as the context of the first verse and the second verse above teach. The foundation may have been laid but we still have to build on it, so, there are still evangelists and pastor-teachers. Then in addition to these, there are still myriad other gifts given to aid them in their work of bringing repentant unbelievers into the Church and feeding and raising them up in the Truth so that we each come to maturity and are able to help others as well.

You are right that the miracles and gifts were not limited to the apostles. Acts 6:8 is one of many examples of passages that indicate that many other believers were gifted in like manner. And the succeeding chapter to the one in 1 Corinthians that you quoted made it clear that other believers had an assortment of such sign gifts. The reason for this was that the New Testament was not complete at the time and was not widely distributed. Until it was, the Church needed verification of divine authority for everyone who claimed to speak in God's Name. That was especially what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 2:4. But once the New Testament was complete and accessible, there was no further need for signs or even for prophets and apostles. See 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says they will be done away with when the perfect comes...but has the perfect comes?
You said in your earlier post that there won't be need for the miracles and signs until tribulation, why then would we need it at the time when the foundation of the church has already been laid, since you said above that He retired some offices - they were only for foundational works. And as a matter of fact, Christ is regarded as the Foundation of the Church on which the Apostles and Prophets built on (Ephesians 2:20).

ihedinobi2:
As I said, I cannot be certain what anyone dreamed even if the result of the dream is their salvation and zeal for the Lord. But I am very glad to hear that that is how things worked out in this instance. My conviction is that everything that the person in question had been hearing about the Gospel perhaps coupled with their own experiences of life built together into a dream as our minds are wont to do and that made him take it seriously enough to seek to be saved. Dreams come from the varied activities of each day (Ecclesiastes 5:3).

No doubt, God has used dreams to communicate to mankind in the past and will do so again during the Tribulation but whenever He does, He overrides normal sequence in doing so. Our dreams normally result from the things that occupy our minds everyday.

If the dream was a result of the preaching, then, I guess those that have been preached to will likewise be having such kind of revelational dreams and they too would have been converted. Their salvation will just follow that process in like manner. But you and I know this is not the case. There is no way we can remove God's hand in the conversion of souls.

What does this mean?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

We cannot begin to separate the spirit from the word, or else we kill it. Without the Holy Spirit teaching us and convicting sinners, the word is as good as dead.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

ihedinobi2:
Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.

Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB:

Hebrews 1:1-2
[1]God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[2]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Since the inauguration of the New Covenant in the Blood of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, only the Bible is given for our guidance. This is why the apostles and prophets were given to write the New Testament to complete the revelation of God in Christ Jesus and give us the full counsel of His Will. Their authority was demonstrated through various miracles and signs including speaking in foreign languages that they had never learned and mediating the Gift of the Holy Spirit by laying hands on new believers at the time. But once they finished writing the Scriptures per their commission from the Lord, all those gifts and signs that served to demonstrate that they were truly sent by the Lord to give new revelation to the world about Himself were retired by the Holy Spirit. So, there is no more need for such signs and miracles. And there will not be until the beginning of the Tribulation when the Lord sends special messengers to Israel to prepare them for His Return as the King over the whole Earth.

If the dream was a result of the preaching, then, I guess those that have been preached to will likewise be having such kind of revelational dreams and they too would have been converted. Their salvation will just follow that process in like manner. But you and I know this is not the case. There is no way we can remove God's hand in the conversion of souls.

What does this mean?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

We cannot begin to separate the spirit from the word, or else we kill it. Without the Holy Spirit teaching us and convicting sinners, the word is as good as dead.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

ihedinobi2:
Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.

Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB:

Hebrews 1:1-2
[1]God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[2]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Since the inauguration of the New Covenant in the Blood of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, only the Bible is given for our guidance. This is why the apostles and prophets were given to write the New Testament to complete the revelation of God in Christ Jesus and give us the full counsel of His Will. Their authority was demonstrated through various miracles and signs including speaking in foreign languages that they had never learned and mediating the Gift of the Holy Spirit by laying hands on new believers at the time. But once they finished writing the Scriptures per their commission from the Lord, all those gifts and signs that served to demonstrate that they were truly sent by the Lord to give new revelation to the world about Himself were retired by the Holy Spirit. So, there is no more need for such signs and miracles. And there will not be until the beginning of the Tribulation when the Lord sends special messengers to Israel to prepare them for His Return as the King over the whole Earth.

Sir, do you believe God still calls people into spiritual offices?

Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If the work of ministry, of edification, of perfection is not yet complete, how will the Holy Spirit retire His works on the body of Christ?

Apostle Paul also exhorted churches about spiritual gifts like, especially the Corinthian church If gifts of the Holy Spirit were meant to just complete the writing of the words and works of Jesus, then it should only be limited to these specific Apostles who were given that work, or at most only the original 12 or 120, not extended to and functioning in the congregations they established. For what purpose will the congregations, even in the absence of the Apostles, be demonstrating the gifts of the spirit. I guess the Apostles themselves gave reasons for the manifestations other spirit in the church.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Though I have many examples of dreams coming true, let me just share this. I have a friend who before was a Muslim. Somewhere, he met someone who preached to him but he still didn't receive the gospel. Finally, he slept and had a vision-like dream which was so real and shook him to his bones. The dream is a kind of illustration of what happened to those that received Christ and those that do not. Immediately waking up from that dream, he sought after this brother who had been preaching to him and was converted. By God's grace he has received a call of God related to evangelism upon his life with gifts of the spirit including speaking in tongues, prophecies, visions, healing...he is now bearing the fruits of the kingdom.

Are we now going to still say this and numerous other things we witness among Christians support the belief that there is no more workings and communications of God like in the Apostolic era?

ihedinobi2:
Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.

Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB:

Hebrews 1:1-2
[1]God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[2]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Since the inauguration of the New Covenant in the Blood of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, only the Bible is given for our guidance. This is why the apostles and prophets were given to write the New Testament to complete the revelation of God in Christ Jesus and give us the full counsel of His Will. Their authority was demonstrated through various miracles and signs including speaking in foreign languages that they had never learned and mediating the Gift of the Holy Spirit by laying hands on new believers at the time. But once they finished writing the Scriptures per their commission from the Lord, all those gifts and signs that served to demonstrate that they were truly sent by the Lord to give new revelation to the world about Himself were retired by the Holy Spirit. So, there is no more need for such signs and miracles. And there will not be until the beginning of the Tribulation when the Lord sends special messengers to Israel to prepare them for His Return as the King over the whole Earth.

What is the cheapest price I can get a used Samsung s5

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ihedinobi2:
Hi. Since the end of the Apostolic era, there have really been no divine communications through dreams and "revelations". Our dreams only reflect what our minds have been most gripped with.

Why then do we see people have a dream which later come to pass in real life? And if there is no communications through revelations, what other ways is God communicating with His people these days.