ihedinobi2:
@Pasqual, we can never accomplish God's Will by using the enemy's tools and strategies.

That means that you can never do good by doing wrong. Or teach people to do right by teaching them lies.

We ought to be generous to our teachers, to fellow believers and to unbelievers in difficulty. That is what the Scriptures teach us. They do not teach that we must give 10% of our income to pastors or preachers whether they ask for it or not.

We have a responsibility to help each other in our material difficulties. We have a responsibility to share in all good things with our teachers (Gal 6:6). But we have NO responsibility or obligation to pay any tithe to anyone. That is unscriptural and is actually blasphemy in many cases.

The points made here are related to some questions I had wanted to ask.

Suppose, due to my responsibility to the pastor-teacher, the brethren in need and indigent unbelievers, I decide to be giving out 10% of my income, freely out of my own volition.
1. Where/who will be the best place and person to pay to
2. Will my giving be categorized as tithe
3. Will it be acceptable/legitimate considering the framework of the new testament.

Brokay2908:

The points made here are related to some questions I had wanted to ask.

Suppose, due to my responsibility to the pastor-teacher, the brethren in need and indigent unbelievers, I decide to be giving out 10% of my income, freely out of my own volition.
1. Where/who will be the best place and person to pay to

You just named all the people you should "pay" it to. The "laws" of the New Covenant are far more difficult to follow than those of the Old. So, instead of going to the Levites in the cities you lived in or close to OR to the Temple, you now have to actively connect to people around you and pay attention so that you can identify real opportunities to fulfill the Law of Love in being generous to those around you.

Brokay2908:
2. Will my giving be categorized as tithe

Obviously not. The tithe has a specific meaning. It wasn't 10% of your monetary income. It was 10% of all your agricultural produce (in both plants and animals) or the monetary equivalent of that 10% plus 20% of the value if you insisted for any reason on paying money instead. And it was to be given to the Levites to store for all the indigent in the society and for themselves. It was also paid every three years. THAT is what the tithe is.

A free will offering or donation of 10% of your income to your teacher, fellow believers and needy unbelievers is just that: a free will offering, not a tithe.

Brokay2908:
3. Will it be acceptable/legitimate considering the framework of the new testament.

Yes. Because the New Covenant only commands free will gifts to these people. There is no proportion commanded or any specific patterns or rituals involved. You are expected to simply take responsibility for those around you as far as you are able.

" The tithe has a specific meaning. It wasn't 10% of your monetary income. It was 10% of all your agricultural produce (in both plants and animals) or the monetary equivalent of that 10% plus 20% of the value if you insisted for any reason on paying money instead. "

If that is tithe, then I guess what the pastors are talking about is different. I don't hear the additional 20%


"Because the New Covenant only commands free will gifts to these people. There is no proportion commanded or any specific patterns or rituals involved. "

In view of the above, what can we say about the Apostles first church in which they sell all and bring the proceeds at Apostle's feet for equal sharing among all. It seems 100% was their gifts and those that broke the pattern paid for it with their lives. Though they It seems they also had an arrangement of distribution in place-not just random giving.
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Acts 6:1, 3 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.



They were doing it cheerfully and at the same time maintaining a particular set standard of giving

Acts 2:44-46 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Brokay2908:
"The tithe has a specific meaning. It wasn't 10% of your monetary income. It was 10% of all your agricultural produce (in both plants and animals) or the monetary equivalent of that 10% plus 20% of the value if you insisted for any reason on paying money instead. "

If that is tithe, then I guess what the pastors are talking about is different. I don't hear the additional 20%

I would agree. The popular teachings about tithing are not found in the Bible. I have already given Bible passages earlier which teach what the tithe is. You can refer to them for proof that I am not inventing anything.

Brokay2908:
"Because the New Covenant only commands free will gifts to these people. There is no proportion commanded or any specific patterns or rituals involved. "

In view of the above, what can we say about the Apostles first church in which they sell all and bring the proceeds at Apostle's feet for equal sharing among all. It seems 100% was their gifts and those that broke the pattern paid for it with their lives. Though they It seems they also had an arrangement of distribution in place-not just random giving.
Acts 4:34-35 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Acts 6:1, 3 And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.
Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.



They were doing it cheerfully and at the same time maintaining a particular set standard of giving

Acts 2:44-46 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

That is not totally correct. No one paid with their lives for not giving 100%. Ananias and Sapphira paid with their lives for lying to the Holy Spirit. Nobody was obliged to give 100%. Even Peter's words made that clear. It was up to each person to decide what they would give. It was just popular to give 100%. And because it was, Ananias and Sapphira wanted to make a name for themselves off of the back of a lie. That was what they died for.

In other words, there was no "standard of giving".

The Bible did not in any way suggest there was any exception to the rule of GIVING ALL unless we just want to assume it.
Acts 2:44-46 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

Anyway, this is my conclusion
1. Surely, members of the church have some financial responsibilities to meet: supporting the man of God, supporting the work of God (eg evangelism), giving to the needy and poor.
2. It is good that churches create a system, means or platform for members to perform this good work of giving effectively and those in charge should be faithful with expenses of peoples' givings.
3. Tithing, whether correctly or incorrectly so called, has become the most popular system adopted by churches, perhaps because of its root in the old testament.
4. God always rewards a faithful giver for a good cause regardless of the name these givings are tagged.
5. The New Testament standard of giving is obviously higher than that of the old testament if we really understand the principles on which both stand. Therefore, a church may adopt a platform of giving other than tithing but to eliminate tithing without a better substitution will do the members of the body of Christ no good.

I really like the model of the first church in which they used money as a defence. Those that give need not worry or get insecured because they are also beneficiaries of their giving. Those that didn't have also are secured. I wish the church can institute something along this line.

Ecclesiastes 7:12
For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it.

Brokay2908:
The Bible did not in any way suggest there was any exception to the rule of GIVING ALL unless we just want to assume it.
Acts 2:44-46 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

This is why I am pretty sure that these sessions are not doing you much good. You make a lot of things up and ignore a lot of things in order to hold on to what you prefer to believe.

YOU made up this rule of "giving all" by yourself. It is not in the Bible at all. The book of Acts reports that it was common practice for those who owned lands and possessions to sell them and bring to the church so that anyone who had need was provided for. It does not mention any sort of rule at all. The only two who were mentioned for not doing this were said to have died as a punishment because they lied to the Holy Spirit. You don't appear to have accepted that as what the Bible says either...perhaps because it does not agree with the position you prefer.

Brokay2908:
Anyway, this is my conclusion
1. Surely, members of the church have some financial responsibilities to meet: supporting the man of God, supporting the work of God (eg evangelism), giving to the needy and poor.

The Bible lists only three responsibilities (see the passages I posted earlier):

i. the pastor-teacher's material needs

ii. the material needs of fellow believers

iii. the unbelieving poor

...in that order of priorities.

Brokay2908:
2. It is good that churches create a system, means or platform for members to perform this good work of giving effectively and those in charge should be faithful with expenses of peoples' givings.

I don't disagree. I think that that can be prudent.

Brokay2908:
3. Tithing, whether correctly or incorrectly so called, has become the most popular system adopted by churches, perhaps because of its root in the old testament.

It is unfortunate that you don't care whether this system is what it is said to be or not. It is not tithing at all. Its popularity does not mean anything spiritually, except for ill...as it has demonstrated so clearly for a while now. It has NO roots in the Old Testament.

Brokay2908:
4. God always rewards a faithful giver for a good cause regardless of the name these givings are tagged.

God is not fooled by this kind of logic. If you are not doing what He commands, you get no points. If you are doing what you think He should approve but which He doesn't, you still get no points.

Brokay2908:
5. The New Testament standard of giving is obviously higher than that of the old testament if we really understand the principles on which both stand. Therefore, a church may adopt a platform of giving other than tithing but to eliminate tithing without a better substitution will do the members of the body of Christ no good.

You are right that the NT standard of giving is higher than that of the OT. You are also right that local churches are free to adopt platforms or systems that help them in fulfilling the responsibility to take care of pastor-teachers and the poor among us. But any idea to develop a system that goes contrary to the Scriptures - including tithing - will only meet with judgment from the Lord, not approval.

Brokay2908:
I really like the model of the first church in which they used money as a defence. Those that give need not worry or get insecured because they are also beneficiaries of their giving. Those that didn't have also are secured. I wish the church can institute something along this line.

Ecclesiastes 7:12
For wisdom is a defence, and money is a defence: but the excellency of knowledge is, that wisdom giveth life to them that have it.

I am disinclined to comment on your own preferences but I should probably point out that the principles we are given to live by would work out great if all believers made spiritual growth and production a priority. Because giving today is a matter of free will, no one can be forced to give. Each person must give because they love the Lord and they love the Lord's children and the unbelievers that He died for. This sort of thing cannot be enforced to anybody's benefit. They can only be taught so that each believer knows exactly what the Lord requires of them...if they want to know, that is.

Next, in that verse from Ecclesiastes, one thing often ignored by those who read and quote it is that it implies that money at the very least does not give life to those that have it. Other teachings in the Bible suggest that it even takes life from those that have it unless they are careful. Also, the Scriptures teach everywhere that we ought not to trust in money at all. So, it may not be wise to look to a system that "uses money as a defence" for good functioning in the church.

Acts 2:44-46 says
ALL THAT BELIEVED...
1. Were together
2. Had all things in common
3. SOLD THEIR POSSESSIONS AND GOODS

"All that believed"...How am I making that up?
Perhaps, you don't understand what I meant by rule of giving all...these people are bound in unity. They are united in purpose as well as in acts. Are you saying it is not possible for people to follow a set standard out of love without feeling forced to do it. There is a standard they are following, that is what I called rule. Jesus said something about selling all, now they have decided to practice it, isn't that a standard of giving 100%? Nobody needs to force them, they are all following that rule cheerfully based on love and unity. Nothing else suggest otherwise in the Bible.

"The Bible lists only three responsibilities (see the passages I posted earlier):
i. the pastor-teacher's material needs
ii. the material needs of fellow believers
iii. the unbelieving poor
...in that order of priorities."

And why are the ministers occupying a special place? Is it not because of the work of God that they are doing? What will make the people of God count the provision for the work of God of any less priority? Nothing.

"It is unfortunate that you don't care whether this system is what it is said to be or not. It is not tithing at all. Its popularity does not mean anything spiritually, except for ill...as it has demonstrated so clearly for a while now. It has NO roots in the Old Testament."

Well, as I have said, those that are advocating the removal of tithe should as well advocate for a better substitute for it.

"God is not fooled by this kind of logic. If you are not doing what He commands, you get no points. If you are doing what you think He should approve, you still get no points."

So, if I am giving for the purposes highlighted previously, God will not accept because I called it a tithe? Has God ordained or assigned a special name to our giving that will affect its validity? My brother this is New Testament era.

"I should probably point out that the principles we are given to live by would work out great if all believers made spiritual growth and production a priority."

That's the main thing.

Brokay2908:
Acts 2:44-46 says
ALL THAT BELIEVED...
1. Were together
2. Had all things in common
3. SOLD THEIR POSSESSIONS AND GOODS

"All that believed"...How am I making that up?

This bit is not made up.

Brokay2908:
Perhaps, you don't understand what I meant by rule of giving all...these people are bound in unity. They are united in purpose as well as in acts.

I don't understand what you are saying here. As believers, we ought to maintain unity in the bond of peace. But that has never meant that we are obligated to follow rules like this especially where the Scriptures command latitude of action or application.

Brokay2908:
Are you saying it is not possible for people to follow a set standard out of love without feeling forced to do it.

Love means that we do what we ought to do because we actually WANT to do it.

Brokay2908:
There is a standard they are following, that is what I called rule. Jesus said something about selling all, now they have decided to practice it, isn't that a standard of giving 100%? Nobody needs to force them, they are all following that rule cheerfully based on love and unity. Nothing else suggest otherwise in the Bible.

This is the part that is made up. It is a logical jump to go from "they all did it" to "they all HAD to do it". One thing has nothing to do with the other. A thing may become so popular that it becomes a bit of a custom without ever being a rule. There is no reason to believe that they made a rule. In fact, Peter's words to Ananias and Sapphira make this a moot point. It was a free will choice, not an obligation, for them to give what they wanted to give. Because they decided to misrepresent their gift (probably for celebrity), they were disciplined by the Holy Spirit to warn the rest of the Church.

Brokay2908:
"The Bible lists only three responsibilities (see the passages I posted earlier):
i. the pastor-teacher's material needs
ii. the material needs of fellow believers
iii. the unbelieving poor
...in that order of priorities."

And why are the ministers occupying a special place? Is it not because of the work of God that they are doing? What will make the people of God count the provision for the work of God of any less priority? Nothing.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. I listed those responsibilities to point out that nothing is said of "evangelism" in the Bible concerning this matter.

Brokay2908:
"It is unfortunate that you don't care whether this system is what it is said to be or not. It is not tithing at all. Its popularity does not mean anything spiritually, except for ill...as it has demonstrated so clearly for a while now. It has NO roots in the Old Testament."

Well, as I have said, those that are advocating the removal of tithe should as well advocate for a better substitute for it.

Which is still an unfortunate position to hold in the face of clear Scriptural teaching. The Bible has replaced tithing with free will donations to the welfare of all the people that the Lord. If that is not good enough for you, that is a major problem.

Brokay2908:
"God is not fooled by this kind of logic. If you are not doing what He commands, you get no points. If you are doing what you think He should approve, you still get no points."

So, if I am giving for the purposes highlighted previously, God will not accept because I called it a tithe? Has God ordained or assigned a special name to our giving that will affect its validity? My brother this is New Testament era.

Ignorance is not much of an excuse in spiritual matters. We have a responsibility to learn the Truth and obey it. But deliberate ignorance is worse by far. YOU KNOW what the tithe is. If you choose to act like you don't, you are solely responsible for the consequences.

Brokay2908:
"I should probably point out that the principles we are given to live by would work out great if all believers made spiritual growth and production a priority."

That's the main thing.

Indeed.

ihedinobi2:

I did. I said, "the tithe is no longer in force" and "we must not return to the Old Testament Mosaic Law in any form". Both statements mean that we are no longer responsible to pay the tithe.

But that does not mean that we are no longer responsible for our pastor-teachers, fellow believers in need or for indigent unbelievers. We are. It is up to us now how much and what exactly we will spare to provide for our teachers and for fellow Christians who have need and for unbelievers who are poor but we still have that responsibility before the Lord.

now I understand. Thanks alot

Pasqual:


Permit me to come in here. Those laws that were removed were shadows showing what Christ will come and do; so when the real image came, He removed the shadows. See how Hebrew 10vs1 puts it "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things..." in verse 9 "Then said HE, Lo, I come to do thy will O God. HE taketh away the first (Shadow), that HE may establish the second (Christ)" So hope you agree with me.

What Christ cancelled was the law (those shadows). It means all those things that were there before the law, they were not cancelled. God gave Moses the law and Abraham was there before Moses. Abraham gave a Tithe after he came back from the wars of the king. It was before the law so it means it was not a shadow to be cancelled..

Let's even consider this, GOD gave us HIS all. HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN/ SON i.e, HIS BEST, what we have to give HIM in return should be our all and it should be our best. That's what we saw in the early church.. Dare to give GOD what is BEST. David said I will not give to GOD that which does not hurt me. It is not actually the criteria to measure your gift to GOD but just give a meaningful thing to GOD knowing that with the same measure that you mete withal it shall be measured to you again...

why is there no record of Jesus nor his followers paying tight, neither did he received tithe. Also why did he never preached on tithe, he only mentioned it ones and even called it a lesser obligation. Please I need explanation.

"(There is a standard they are following, that is what I called rule. Jesus said something about selling all, now they have decided to practice it, isn't that a standard of giving 100%? Nobody needs to force them, they are all following that rule cheerfully based on love and unity. Nothing else suggest otherwise in the Bible.)

This is the part that is made up. It is a logical jump to go from "they all did it" to "they all HAD to do it". "

You still don't get my explanation here and it seems you are enforcing your own interpretation on what I said. But since you get this:
"Acts 2:44-46 says
ALL THAT BELIEVED...
1. Were together
2. Had all things in common
3. SOLD THEIR POSSESSIONS AND GOODS"
That's okay.



"(Well, as I have said, those that are advocating the removal of tithe should as well advocate for a better substitute for it)

Which is still an unfortunate position to hold in the face of clear Scriptural teaching. The Bible has replaced tithing with free will donations to the welfare of all the people that the Lord. If that is not good enough for you, that is a major problem."

Tell me what is good in telling people to stop paying tithe when they are not made to realize they still have financial responsibilities in those areas and the new method of going about it? Will it be practiced in a way the church will be made better by it? Knowing fully well that we are to step up our level of giving.



"(So, if I am giving for the purposes highlighted previously, God will not accept because I called it a tithe? Has God ordained or assigned a special name to our giving that will affect its validity? My brother this is New Testament era.)

Ignorance is not much of an excuse in spiritual matters. We have a responsibility to learn the Truth and obey it. But deliberate ignorance is worse by far. YOU KNOW what the tithe is. If you choose to act like you don't, you are solely responsible for the consequences."

Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here. You yourself agreed " tithing" as practiced is not what it was in the old testament. So, it's not as if it is the original old testament practice but it is still a way of giving. Even many still default on 10%. The truth is that God will still reward everyone according to their level of faithfulness. Is "tithing" a sin? Some churches may even be preaching against tithe, not because of their love for truth but so as to attract congregations and cause divisions. Does tithing or not tithing make a church to raise more or less spiritual christians? Some will even jump in the bandwagon of such churches because they are not ready to give at all.



"(And why are the ministers occupying a special place? Is it not because of the work of God that they are doing? What will make the people of God count the provision for the work of God of any less priority? Nothing.)

I'm not sure what you are saying here. I listed those responsibilities to point out that nothing is said of "evangelism" in the Bible concerning this matter."

I will not need to go further on that.

@ ihedinobi2

Nothing about tithe is wrong! The fact that you're not accepting it does not make it wrong! They're many things that are out-rightly wrong and people don't talk about it..

Go and challenge Celibacy. Refusal to eat meat during lent period, Gay marriage, lesbianism and not Tithe.

If you believe it, believe it. If you don't, then don't but when advising someone. Tell him or her that "some people believe it and they still practice it" but for me, I don't believe it that's why I don't practice it. You then know that any other thing he wants to know is why you don't and with that you can make him see reasons not to and not counter the other person who believes it... That's maturity

We Christians, we've lost the focus, different denominations with different doctrines. No wonder the church is in a mess.

Remove not the ancient landmarks which our fathers have set (Proverbs 22vs28)

Brokay2908:
You still don't get my explanation here and it seems you are enforcing your own interpretation on what I said. But since you get this:
"Acts 2:44-46 says
ALL THAT BELIEVED...
1. Were together
2. Had all things in common
3. SOLD THEIR POSSESSIONS AND GOODS"
That's okay.

Okay. Not to split hairs here but perhaps it was "all" who were selling their possessions and goods to provide for others in need or perhaps it was just something that some among them were doing. The passage does read:

Acts 2:44-46
[44]And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common;
[45]and they began selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need.
[46]Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart.

But that is neither here nor there. There was no rule. Or standard. Just a custom at best.

Brokay2908:
Tell me what is good in telling people to stop paying tithe when they are not made to realize they still have financial responsibilities in those areas and the new method of going about it? Will it be practiced in a way the church will be made better by it? Knowing fully well that we are to step up our level of giving.

I'm sure I don't know anything good about failing to teach people the Truth of the Word of God no matter what the outcome of doing so would be. The responsibility of the teacher - and which I have striven to demonstrate by my example here - is to teach the Whole Truth of God. In this matter, the whole Truth is that the doctrine of tithing is a lie that God will punish any teacher severely for teaching and any believer for trying to obey AND that we now have a responsibility to help each other especially our teachers and fellow believers in every good thing including our material things.

If you insist on teaching tithing to persuade believers to give of their substance, you will face the appropriate judgment for it. If you fail to teach believers that they have a responsibility to look out for each other and for needy unbelievers - especially for their teachers -, you will also face appropriate judgment for it.

Brokay2908:
Let's not make a mountain out of a mole hill here. You yourself agreed " tithing" as practiced is not what it was in the old testament. So, it's not as if it is the original old testament practice but it is still a way of giving. Even many still default on 10%. The truth is that God will still reward everyone according to their level of faithfulness. Is "tithing" a sin? Some churches may even be preaching against tithe, not because of their love for truth but so as to attract congregations and cause divisions. Does tithing or not tithing make a church to raise more or less spiritual christians? Some will even jump in the bandwagon of such churches because they are not ready to give at all.

Only God knows the heart but your words here are very very telling of your attitude to the Word of God. Do you really think that it is "making a mountain out of a mole hill" to insist that we keep to the Word of God and call things what they are?

The tithing doctrine popularly taught today is a lie. It is wicked to teach the Children of God bought by very precious Blood lies of any hue or color for any reason however noble.

Pasqual:
@ ihedinobi2

Nothing about tithe is wrong! The fact that you're not accepting it does not make it wrong! They're many things that are out-rightly wrong and people don't talk about it..

Your first sentence is unfortunate because there are biblical passages I shared earlier which you have to ignore to say what you just said. It is never a wise thing to ignore the Word of God.

As for accepting tithing or not, obviously, this is not about my preferences but rather about the Scriptures.

As for your last statement, shall we add one more lie just because people are tolerating so many already? Besides, this is the second time we are discussing and the third issue we are discussing. Even if other people are ignoring all the things that are wrong, I'm kind of the wrong person to be making the scapegoat since I have established that I am not a one-speed boat. I am concerned about all the Truth, not just popular controversies.

Pasqual:
Go and challenge Celibacy. Refusal to eat meat during lent period, Gay marriage, lesbianism and not Tithe.

See above. We have already discussed the false doctrine of sinless perfection and the opposite and correct Scriptural position of confession and forgiveness as well as the false doctrine of persisting activity of sign-gifts like speaking in tongues and prophecy and the opposite correct Scriptural position of the primacy of the completed Bible.

Pasqual:
If you believe it, believe it. If you don't, then don't but when advising someone. Tell him or her that "some people believe it and they still practice it" but for me, I don't believe it that's why I don't practice it. You then know that any other thing he wants to know is why you don't and with that you can make him see reasons not to and not counter the other person who believes it... That's maturity

First of all, I am responsible to the Lord Jesus Christ, not to you, for how I use the gift that He has given me. So, I am afraid I cannot take your advice regarding how I must teach what I have learned.

Secondly, you don't really get to define what maturity is and what it is not, especially when you are not demonstrating much respect for the Bible's position on stuff. Maturity is defined by the Lord Jesus and it has to do with the Truth.

Pasqual:
We Christians, we've lost the focus, different denominations with different doctrines. No wonder the church is in a mess.

Remove not the ancient landmarks which our fathers have set (Proverbs 22vs28)

True, too few believers today have much of an appreciation or concern for the Truth. That is precisely why there is such a mess. However, there are believers who are zealously pursuing the Truth and learning and growing and doing their best to help other believers who also want to grow.

Your concern should be to join them in making the Truth your prime concern as well. That means that regardless what may be popular or what may sound right to you, you should make it a point of duty to stick to the Bible no matter what and only listen to teachers who respect the Bible and want you to learn to know the Lord and love Him like He deserves to be loved.

ihedinobi2
You know what? Its funny when someone thinks he is right and he is "totally wrong" what surprises me is that in all areas of the bible, you're very shallow... Apostle Paul says we should avoid foolish questions and striving about the law for they are unprofitable and vain. (Titus 3vs9).. Its time I heed to that..

The fact that I stopped arguing about all the former topics and stopping this now; it is not because you're right but because you're too shallow and at that very shallow.

We see normally that "An ignorant man does not always want correction because he doesn't want to be seen as inferior".. A quote relating to that is "empty vessels make the loudest noise" how will you say tithing is wrong and sin-less perfection is not attainable? Then what did Jesus do at the cross? I pity your knowledge and it shows the level of what Christian life you portray.. God help you..

Pasqual:
ihedinobi2
You know what? Its funny when someone thinks he is right and he is "totally wrong" what surprises me is that in all areas of the bible, you're very shallow... Apostle Paul says we should avoid foolish questions and striving about the law for they are unprofitable and vain. (Titus 3vs9).. Its time I heed to that..

The fact that I stopped arguing about all the former topics and stopping this now; it is not because you're right but because you're too shallow and at that very shallow.

We see normally that "An ignorant man does not always want correction because he doesn't want to be seen as inferior".. A quote relating to that is "empty vessels make the loudest noise" how will you say tithing is wrong and sin-less perfection is not attainable? Then what did Jesus do at the cross? I pity your knowledge and it shows the level of what Christian life you portray.. God help you..

Your perception of me is a free will choice. I can't do much about it beyond present myself as I am. I'm sorry that you choose to see me this way. I believe that it is the wrong idea of me but then it is your choice to embrace this idea or to reject it. It is not my choice to make for you.

But you asked a question here and I will answer it as I have continued to try to do.

Our Lord Jesus Christ paid the full price for every sin that every human being has ever committed, is committing and will ever commit so that we can be restored to fellowship with God and thus be rescued from an eternity of separation from God Who is the Source of all life and blessing.

That is what the Lord Jesus did.

The result of that work is that we who believe can be free of guilt for our past sins and have boldness to approach God as His Children and that now if we stumble at any time, just like James 3:2 teaches that everyone in mortal flesh does, we can be sure that there is forgiveness and restoration for us when we confess our failure and turn away from it and, finally, that in the future, when we are resurrected, we will live with God eternally in our bodies which have been made free of all sin and everything negative so that we will never have to deal with failure ever again.

In other words, the Lord Jesus removed sin as a problem between us and God. That is what He did. Right now, God considers us righteous as long as we believe in the Lord Jesus. Our actual behavior does not add to or take away from that. But no one who believes in the Lord Jesus and who loves Him wishes to continue to commit sin because sin is why the Lord Jesus Christ died for us. So, true love for the Lord Jesus will teach us to strive to lead clean lives free of sin but it will not require us to believe that we can ever be perfect before we are resurrected in perfect bodies. We must do our very best to honor the Lord Jesus with our behavior but we will not believe the lie that we can be sinless while we still live in a body of sin.

I Corinthians 16vs1,2. "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given 'order' to the 'churches' of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come" pls help explain this.

The best thing we can do while reading the Bible is to "Read the Bible with an open mind" If you come to it having something at heart, you'll end up lining up points from it to defend what you have in heart, but if you come to it wanting to hear, God will give you what you want to hear and what you didn't budget for..

The issue of giving is really a hard one this days. Many BIBLE passages about giving have been forgotten or put aside just to fill so called or even true Pastors stomach and on seeing that, some have come out to cancel out all other means of giving!! Soon someone will say no need to give offering! (Don't argue that because you're already arguing about tithe).

If I may ask;
1. Since you said we should no longer give tithe, just outline short and simple reasons why we shouldn't and if GOD has cancelled tithe; WHY?
2. If the Apostles didn't give tithe and they gave their all since that's what was recorded for us, are we to give our all or not? If Yes! Why? And if No! Why?

Pasqual:
I Corinthians 16vs1,2. "Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given 'order' to the 'churches' of Galatia, even so do ye. Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come" pls help explain this.

This is the full quote:

1 Corinthians 16:1-4 NASB
[1]Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also.
[2]On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.
[3]When I arrive, whomever you may approve, I will send them with letters to carry your gift to Jerusalem;
[4]and if it is fitting for me to go also, they will go with me.

You can see that this is for a single occasion: the Jerusalem believers were very poor and in need then. Other churches that Paul ministered to was contributing as well and Paul was organizing the contributions so that everything could go to the poor in Jerusalem. See 2 Cor 8-9 (note 8:8, 9:7 in particular), Rom 15:25-28, 31 and Acts 24:17.

In other words, this is a good example of how we ought to take responsibility for each other in the Church but it is a bad example for compelling people to give of their substance just because. The tradition of paying offerings every Sunday is not necessarily a bad thing but this bit of Scripture is not where anyone can say that it started. Paul was only telling the Corinthian believers to collect together what they wanted him to get to the Jerusalem believers and to do that collection every Sunday until they had reached whatever target they had set for themselves. This was to make sure that they would not need to be making any further contributions once Paul arrived. Paul intended only to pick up what they had collected and give them to "men [they approved]" who would then in company with him send the gift to Jerusalem, not to have to wait for them to finish their collections.

That means that these Sunday collections that the Galatians and Corinthians did were not an every Sunday affair. They only did it because Paul suggested it to help them collect their contributions in an orderly manner.

Pasqual:
The best thing we can do while reading the Bible is to "Read the Bible with an open mind" If you come to it having something at heart, you'll end up lining up points from it to defend what you have in heart, but if you come to it wanting to hear, God will give you what you want to hear and what you didn't budget for..

Indeed. What you say here is exactly true. I would only add that there is a better things to do than "read the Bible with an open mind". It is to read the Bible with an open mind and submit to a gifted and prepared Bible teacher who will help you understand what you read.

Pasqual:
The issue of giving is really a hard one this days. Many BIBLE passages about giving have been forgotten or put aside just to fill so called or even true Pastors stomach and on seeing that, some have come out to cancel out all other means of giving!! Soon someone will say no need to give offering! (Don't argue that because you're already arguing about tithe).

You are exactly right that abuse of Scripture has led to even worse abuse of Scripture. That is how these things go. It is very very unfortunate but it is not unavoidable. Anyone who commits to following the Bible under the authority of a qualified teacher will still learn the Truth and do the right to God's Pleasure and reap eternal rewards beyond imagining for their labor.

As for offerings, I have already "argued that" above. You did ask me to.

Pasqual:
If I may ask;
1. Since you said we should no longer give tithe, just outline short and simple reasons why we shouldn't and if GOD has cancelled tithe; WHY?
2. If the Apostles didn't give tithe and they gave their all since that's what was recorded for us, are we to give our all or not? If Yes! Why? And if No! Why?

I already gave a comprehensive answer to the issue of the tithe and giving in the Church. I'll just quote it here again and if you find anything about it unclear, just ask and I'll do my best to explain it more clearly. Please note that I am giving you this quote because I believe it answers your questions sufficiently. It may not give you one-to-one answers for the above but if you actually read it, you should find the answers you need. Still, I will explain anything you need me to if it is unclear.

ihedinobi2:

Hello. My explanation will be serious but you will decide just how convincing you find it.

First of all, I cannot speak for any pastors concerning why they quote only Malachi 3. You will have to ask them. The best I can do is take an educated guess. And that is that it is probably the best way they can try to convince believers who don't know the Bible well to pay them money. Also, there may be the problem of spiritual immaturity on the part of the pastor so that he does not understand the Scriptures in this particular matter.

Second, the tithe was the income tax of the ancient nation of Israel paid in agricultural products (both animals and plants crops or in their monetary equivalent plus 20% of the value). It was necessary to sustain the Temple worship and provide welfare for the indigent in the towns and villages and cities of Israel. Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:21-32, Deut 14:28-29.

After the Lord Jesus Christ came and paid the Sacrifice in His Blood, the Law of Moses was removed and a new Law in Christ was instituted so that the ritual provisions of the Mosaic Law and the rituals associated with the Temple are no longer in force, certainly not for the Gentiles today. So the tithe is no longer in force. Heb 8:6-13.

But under the New Covenant in Jesus Christ's Blood, we are now supposed to cheerfully and deliberately take responsibility for one another so that

1. those whom the Lord has tasked with feeding His Children with the Truth (that is, pastor-teachers) are provided with what they need for sustenance (1 Cor 9:4-14, Gal 6:6);

2. indigent believers find material support from fellow believers (2 Cor 8:13-15, 9:11-12);

3. unbelievers are witnessed to by our compassion and generosity toward each other and them as well (2 Cor 9:13).

So, while we must not return to the Old Testament Mosaic Law in any form so that we do not blaspheme against the Lord Jesus Christ (any recourse to the Mosaic Law denies that the Lord Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and died for our sins, Gal 5:4), we are not therefore to become cruel and uncaring toward others. In fact, we are now called to a higher standard of life where we are to be proactive in helping others who are less fortunate in material circumstances than we are, of course prioritizing our pastor-teachers and fellow believers in this as well.


May the Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

Please, tell me the attitude of Jesus Christ to the doctrines of the pharisees here:
Matthew 23:23-24 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

What was the attitude of Jesus to the word of God there? Was He also neglecting the truth when He said you are straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel? What was Jesus saying there? You left the serious matters of spirituality and make a big issue out of nothing. How can you say paying tithe is a sin? That is crossing the boundary. You may present the truth you know but it will also be unjustified to call what is not a sin a sin. Why did you not advocate for frewill giving that encourages giving ALL. Is it not a truth in the Bible? Out of those that are against paying tithe, how many of them have actually sat down and find out what makes the members of the first church to be giving their all freely and think of incorporating that into our churches. You can't be so sure that God didn't allow tithing in New Testament because there are still roots of the old in the new. For example, the 10 commandments are still summed up in the New testament rule of Love. And according to your definition of tithing, this that churches are practicing is not even tithing of the old form, it is more or less 10% free will offering. Or do they reserve any punishment for these that don't pay it? Let me tell you that God loves and honours those who still hang on their faith on meeting up with this standard. Let's speak and do as those that will be judged by the law of liberty (James 2:12). I have nothing to benefit here as you are assuming because since the issue of tithing has been raised sometimes ago, my stand has always been the same. I am neither for nor against but I perceive mischief in the while thing and the facts which I love people to bear in mind have already been expressed in my previous conclusions.

Let me say this serious matter. Being a Christian means being born again-of water and of spirit. Meanwhile, Jesus told those that were already alive that He came to give life and give it abundantly. Meaning that He was not talking about the natural life which they already have but a spiritual life in which our new born spirit can be alive to God. This is so because, God who is a spirit need to communicate with His sons who are also spiritual in nature for the flesh is dead to the voice of the spirit. The spirit of God communicates with our renewed spirit-that second man, born not of the flesh but of the spirit. Hence the spirit of God will communicate to us when we are open to Him for communication.

Brokay2908:
Please, tell me the attitude of Jesus Christ to the doctrines of the pharisees here:
Matthew 23:23-24 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

What was the attitude of Jesus to the word of God there? Was He also neglecting the truth when He said you are straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel? What was Jesus saying there? You left the serious matters of spirituality and make a big issue out of nothing.

The Lord was saying to them that they misunderstood, misused and misapplied the Law. In their pursuit of self-righteousness, they were picking and choosing what parts of the Law to keep and what parts to ignore. This only led to more and more sin but with accompanying blindness to their own sinfulness since they were deciding for themselves what was sin and what wasn't sin.

Brokay2908:
How can you say paying tithe is a sin? That is crossing the boundary. You may present the truth you know but it will also be unjustified to call what is not a sin a sin.

I think I have demonstrated comprehensively why I called tithing as a practice and every teaching of it sin. If you can ask a specific question about what I said about that, I'll try to answer. Otherwise, you're asking me to repeat here what I have already said earlier in this discussion and since it was written, there is no need to do so.

What you might do is explain why you believe it is not a sin in view of what I have said. In Gal 5:4, we were warned to never seek justification from the Law. Tithing is of the Law. In Christ now - that is, since the Cross -, we are commanded to give freely according to our ability to help others. Returning to tithing in any form is denying the Cross and that is blasphemy.

Brokay2908:
Why did you not advocate for frewill giving that encourages giving ALL. Is it not a truth in the Bible?

The very fact that it is free will giving negates any possibility of placing any limits on it. Still, you will not find a single command to "freely give all". Our Lord told the rich young ruler to go sell all he had and give to the poor and then come follow Him. That was the only person to whom He said that and it was to demonstrate to the young man the true state of his heart. He had come to the Lord seeking to impress Him with his ostensible desire to pursue the Kingdom of Heaven at all cost. But then the Lord showed him one cost he didn't want to pay, one thing he valued more than the Kingdom of Heaven: his wealth.

The disciples of our Lord subsequently mentioned that they had left all and followed Him. See Matt 19:16-31. Do you remember that Peter still had his wife and family, that they still had their fishing boats and nets and homes at this point? Perhaps you have not properly understood what "giving all" means. 2 Cor 8:5 is a good way to begin to appreciate what that means. 2 Cor 5:15 says that we belong to the Lord Jesus now. That means that we ought to live according to His Will. That in turn translates to being ready to serve Him however He pleases whenever He pleases. Maintaining such an attitude is what it means to "give our all".

When you have that attitude, you will make it a point of duty (without someone giving you rules or making you do it in any way) to care for those Whom the Lord loves since the Lord Himself needs nothing from us and only by caring for those He cares about can we demonstrate our love for and devotion to Him. How you care for others will depend entirely on your circumstances and their unique needs. So, it is no longer meaningful to try to make a rule about how to help others. Sometimes a prayer is what is needed, other times, a little money. Then, there are times when a word of encouragement will do the job.

Brokay2908:
Out of those that are against paying tithe, how many of them have actually sat down and find out what makes the members of the first church to be giving their all freely and think of incorporating that into our churches.

I can't tell what other people do or have done. But I can tell you that the Scriptures are our guide, not the church of that era. Each person and each church has to deal with their own unique realities in ways that while staying true to Scriptural principles must also align with their own peculiar circumstances and abilities.

Brokay2908:
You can't be so sure that God didn't allow tithing in New Testament because there are still roots of the old in the new.

I am quite sure that God condemns any return to the Old Law. Heb 10:9 among a significant number of other Bible passages makes that unquestionable. As for the relationship of the Law to Christ, Heb 10:1 says that the former was a shadow of the latter. So, of course, the New fulfills in every way what the Old only hinted at. This is immediately clear in how free will giving out of "bowels of mercy/compassion" has replaced a mechanical law of tithing.

Brokay2908:
For example, the 10 commandments are still summed up in the New testament rule of Love.

Indeed. And not just the 10 commandments but all the Law and the Prophets.

Brokay2908:
And according to your definition of tithing, this that churches are practicing is not even tithing of the old form, it is more or less 10% free will offering.

That is a rather confused way of looking at it. The correct way of seeing it is this:

some wolves among the sheep took a concept out of the Bible and twisted it around to fleece the sheep.

Those who preach tithing insist that it is from the Law and from Abraham's example, not from the New Testament. Clearly, this is a lie. Neither the Law nor Abraham is a model for the practice of tithing in the churches today. That practice is invented almost in its entirety and then sold to believers in the name of the Bible to make them part with their material possessions. That is thievery and fraud. It is not by any means a free will donation of 10%.

Again, a free will donation comes out of the heart of a giver. He, that is, the giver, chooses to give and how much he will give. That is not what is taught in churches today.

Brokay2908:
Or do they reserve any punishment for these that don't pay it?

I think it would be an obvious lie to say no. There are many varied threats about what happens when you do not pay your tithes. It is not for no reason that this conversation started on Malachi 3. Many people know Mal 3:8-18 better than they know anything else in the Bible. In verses 9 and 11, the threat of a curse and of pests and destroyers because of a failure to pay tithes is not unknown to tithing churches.

Brokay2908:
Let me tell you that God loves and honours those who still hang on their faith on meeting up with this standard.

What standard do you mean here, the tithe or "the all"? Because this seems to me to be more evidence of really great confusion in you about this matter.

Brokay2908:
Let's speak and do as those that will be judged by the law of liberty (James 2:12).

Indeed, let us. And the law of liberty sets us free to act according to a conscience taught by the Word of Truth. We are no longer enslaved to the traditions and "standards" of men who have no respect for the Bible and wish to blind us to the Truth for their own material gain.

Brokay2908:
I have nothing to benefit here as you are assuming because since the issue of tithing has been raised sometimes ago, my stand has always been the same. I am neither for nor against but I perceive mischief in the while thing and the facts which I love people to bear in mind have already been expressed in my previous conclusions.

I don't think I know you enough to assume anything about what you stand to gain or lose. All I can judge you by are your words here and what they tell me is that you do not have sufficient respect for the Word of God, that is all. I don't think I can say anything one way or another about what your motives are.

As for being for or against tithing, I can only say what I said above: you seem very confused about this.

Brokay2908:
Let me say this serious matter. Being a Christian means being born again-of water and of spirit. Meanwhile, Jesus told those that were already alive that He came to give life and give it abundantly. Meaning that He was not talking about the natural life which they already have but a spiritual life in which our new born spirit can be alive to God. This is so because, God who is a spirit need to communicate with His sons who are also spiritual in nature for the flesh is dead to the voice of the spirit. The spirit of God communicates with our renewed spirit-that second man, born not of the flesh but of the spirit. Hence the spirit of God will communicate to us when we are open to Him for communication.

You are correct that spiritual truths can only mean something to spiritual people. That is what we learn in 1 Cor 2:10-16. However, there is much that the Lord has to teach us that we cannot learn unless we begin to take spiritual growth seriously (see 1 Cor 2:6, 3:1-3). So, these confusions and errors will persist until the children of God begin to earnestly desire the milk of the Word of God so that they can grow up (1 Pet 2:2) to being able to eat meat (Heb 5:13-14).

So, I encourage you to pursue spiritual growth so that these matters can become clear to you as well.

[color=#000099][/color]
ihedinobi2
read I Corinthians 9vs13,14. It says "Do ye not know that those which minister about HOLY things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath THE LORD ORDAINED that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel"

The fact that Apostle Paul didn't talk about it or didn't want it does not mean JESUS didn't ordain giving to minister. And calling it TITHE (as it was called in the old testament) doesn't maker it wrong either.

Pasqual:
[color=#000099][/color]
ihedinobi2
read I Corinthians 9vs13,14. It says "Do ye not know that those which minister about HOLY things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath THE LORD ORDAINED that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel"

The fact that Apostle Paul didn't talk about it or didn't want it does not mean JESUS didn't ordain giving to minister. And calling it TITHE (as it was called in the old testament) doesn't maker it wrong either.

I am not sure why you point out 1 Cor 9 and talk about Paul like you are disagreeing with me. The answer that I gave you quoted BOTH 1 Cor 9:4-14 and Gal 6:6. And I'm not sure that I could have stated more clearly that we are responsible to give to our teachers whatever we can afford to provide them with sustenance.

Where we DEFINITELY disagree is where you call that giving a tithe. It is not a tithe. The Bible calls it "sharing" or "giving". It never calls it a tithe. While it is obligatory, just like the command also to give to the poor believers among us and not withhold our hands from poor unbelievers as well, there are no limits placed on the gift. If you want to give 10% of your income to your teacher, that is all to the good as long as you do not end up being irresponsible in your other financial responsibilities. If you want to give 1%, that is also good, as long as you are doing justice to the needs of your teacher and to yourself. Etc. There is no command to give so much or so little, only a command to take responsibility for your teacher's needs as they take care of you spiritually and for your fellow brothers' and sisters' needs as well and for the unbelievers around you.

As I have said more than enough times, the tithe was a different affair and applied only to the nation Israel under the Law. What is taught in churches today as the tithe is a lie. And it certainly has nothing to do with what is in the Old Testament. If you want to carry on with that lie, that is your choice. But your preference of it does not make it true at all.

@ Ihedinobi 2

From your last response, I can see again that you are just ignoring the obvious truth and interpreting the Bible to suit your own assumed truth. I can go on picking your errors here and there. Instead of you to seek clarification on a question or statement you don't understand, you rather love to assume the other person is confused because you think you know it all. But the truth is you do not know as you ought to know. Here are my conclusions once again and they remain my stand on tithing.

1. Surely, members of the church have some financial responsibilities to meet: supporting the man of God, supporting the work of God (eg evangelism), giving to the needy and poor.
2. It is good that churches create a system, means or platform for members to perform this good work of giving effectively and those in charge should be faithful with expenses of peoples' givings.
3. Tithing, whether correctly or incorrectly so called, has become the most popular system adopted by churches, perhaps because of its root in the old testament.
4. God always rewards a faithful giver for a good cause regardless of the name these givings are tagged.
5. The New Testament standard of giving is obviously higher than that of the old testament if we really understand the principles on which both stand. Therefore, a church may adopt a platform of giving other than tithing but to eliminate tithing without a better substitution will do the members of the body of Christ no good.

And with that, I'm out of this discussion.

Its obvious that I am not wrong on thinking that your Biblical interpretation have shaky foundation.. What you need at this point is Jesus and not even Bible explanation. Must you win an argument?

Ihedinobi2....... YOU WIN.. Hope you're now satisfied.. Mtcheew

Brokay2908:
@ Ihedinobi 2

From your last response, I can see again that you are just ignoring the obvious truth and interpreting the Bible to suit your own assumed truth. I can go on picking your errors here and there. Instead of you to seek clarification on a question or statement you don't understand, you rather love to assume the other person is confused because you think you know it all. But the truth is you do not know as you ought to know. Here are my conclusions once again and they remain my stand on tithing.

1. Surely, members of the church have some financial responsibilities to meet: supporting the man of God, supporting the work of God (eg evangelism), giving to the needy and poor.
2. It is good that churches create a system, means or platform for members to perform this good work of giving effectively and those in charge should be faithful with expenses of peoples' givings.
3. Tithing, whether correctly or incorrectly so called, has become the most popular system adopted by churches, perhaps because of its root in the old testament.
4. God always rewards a faithful giver for a good cause regardless of the name these givings are tagged.
5. The New Testament standard of giving is obviously higher than that of the old testament if we really understand the principles on which both stand. Therefore, a church may adopt a platform of giving other than tithing but to eliminate tithing without a better substitution will do the members of the body of Christ no good.

And with that, I'm out of this discussion.

Please forgive me for upsetting you. I know that telling someone else that they seem confused does come across as insulting but I didn't know a better way to show you what I was trying to say. Again, accept my apologies. Your conclusion is noted. I understand that you don't accept my position. I'm sorry that you don't but I stand by it nonetheless. Cheers.

Pasqual:
Its obvious that I am not wrong on thinking that your Biblical interpretation have shaky foundation.. What you need at this point is Jesus and not even Bible explanation. Must you win an argument?

Ihedinobi2....... YOU WIN.. Hope you're now satisfied.. Mtcheew

I don't know about winning an argument. I certainly hope that I wasn't trying to do that. What I meant to do was answer questions as clearly as possible and tell all the Truth I have learned regarding what was asked so that anyone reading will be edified if they want to be.

Is my interpretation on shaky foundations? I believe that they are not but I cannot decide for you what you must believe.

Do I need Jesus? We all do. I certainly haven't got all of Him that I know that He has to give and I am still striving everyday to get more of Him. That is also why I need and take care to access good Bible teaching to help me get to know Him more everyday. I urge you to do the same.

Cheers.

[quote author=ihedinobi2 post=71745860]
I don't know about winning an argument. I certainly hope that I wasn't trying to do that.

You don't even need to know.. Simply, you win.. Hope you're satisfied..

[quote author=ihedinobi2 post=71745860]
What I meant to do was answer questions as clearly as possible and tell all the Truth I have learned regarding what was asked so that anyone reading will be edified if they want to be.

Edifying? False teachings don't edify so none of your answers here did that.. It only brought more strivings..

[quote author=ihedinobi2 post=71745860]
Is my interpretation on shaky foundations? I believe that they are not but I cannot decide for you what you must believe.

How will you believe? Even the Israelites who are still waiting for Christ have a belief and they don't believe its a shaky belief..

[quote author=ihedinobi2 post=71745860]
Do I need Jesus? We all do. I certainly haven't got all of Him that I know that He has to give and I am still striving everyday to get more of Him. That is also why I need and take care to access good Bible teaching to help me get to know Him more everyday. I urge you to do the same.

What I am saying is different from what you're insinuating. You need Jesus on a foundational level. Without that, you can't strive for more of HIM so first thing first..

[quote author=ihedinobi2 post=71745860]
Cheers.

More cheers bro

*PAST TENSE!*

One confusing aspect of the English language is that not all rules can be applied to all contexts. For instance, we were taught in nursery school that the past tense is usually indicated by the addition of the suffix "-ed" to a word. Meanwhile, the story got adjusted in primary school that the rule doesn't apply to all contexts (e.g took, woke, fought, etc). It is now left for the students to understand the logic in order to apply the word in the right context. Most times, after taking pains to learn the logic of past tense, students still misuse the past tense in the context of present occurrences. This would only cause them failure. This means, it is not enough to be successful in understanding the past tense, it should never be used in a present context to avoid failure.

Proverbs 4:25 exhorts, _"Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee."_ Every man has the tendency to glory in the past even while faced with several challenges in the present time. It is when you understand that your attitude towards present challenges is what will determine the speed of your movement into the future that you will stop glorying in the past. Yes! The past was successful but it is already past tense. What are you doing presently so that your past success will not become a future failure in any way? Lot's wife looked back for whatever reason or riches she might have left behind and became a pillar of salt (Genesis 19:26).

Failure is when you keep glorying in your past achievements instead of working on the present challenges staring at you or looking forward to continuous achievements in future. Whatever you have done becomes a past tense the day you're able to complete that task. It is now left for you to open a new chapter and keep going. It is good to ponder on your past but it becomes a stumbling block if you get yourself stock at that. Move forward.

It does not matter what you're known for in the past. It is past tense and does not apply to 'now'. Who are you presently? It doesn't matter what you've been able to achieve over the years. It is past tense. What are the new tasks on your desk presently? It doesn't matter the knowledge you have garnered over the years. They're past tense because the world evolves everyday. What are you doing to update yourself in the new line of knowledge?

*Past success plus present failure could lead to future failure if care is not taken. Take heed not to apply the past tense in your present context.*

_*You can surely do better, with God by your side!*_

*#MidWeekReflection*

*Flora O'seyi DAIRO*
*(Father's Courier)*
floraoseyidairo..com

Only God of Alleluia Ministries International will help us

"Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. If one person falls, the other can reach out and help. But someone who falls alone is in real trouble"... Ecclesiastes 4:9(NLT)

ABOUT ACS
Agape Christian Singles(ACS) is the #1 Nigeria's Christian Singles community, dedicated to connecting Christian Singles in Nigeria.
It's FREE to join and there is no cost for a Basic Membership.
We have seasoned men of God (Life Coach), who are readily available to counseling, prayers, advice and answer your questions.

TRUST & SAFETY
We realise that people choose to join Agape Christian Singles because they want to meet other genuine Christian Singles in a safe and supportive environment.
As a Tech Savy Team, we are committed to the highest level of safety and security on our platform and at our social media.

COMMUNITY
Community is at the heart of what it means to be a Christian and we see Agape Christian Singles (ACS) as a small corner of the Internet which Christian Singles can call their own.

REWARD
We are giving FREE 1 year Gold Membership package to the first 500 members, to enjoy full features of the community.

TELL OTHERS.
Dont keep it to yourself, tell others! Be like Andrew who invited others to meet Jesus. "The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him..." -John 1-41(NIV)

ARE YOU...?
Are you a christian and single (Never married, Divorced & Widowed- age 18 - 55)? Are you looking for your soul mate, activity partners, someone to pray with, roomates, study partners, or just a friend to talk to? Meeting Christian singles has never been more exciting and convenient.

FREE TO JOIN @ www.agapechristiansingles.com
Support: info@agapechristiansingles.com

THANKS.
Team ACS

Nice talk. Remain blessed