₦airaland Forum

For a little more than twenty-four months I did my job to the best of my ability. While I was no longer a believer in orthodox Christianity, I knew what orthodoxy was – and so I gave the people what they wanted to hear (I also threw in a good amount of practical wisdom and life advice just so I could live with myself and feel like I was doing something worthwhile). Most of the time I was content to keep things going as they were (thinking it was best for all parties involved). But there were many days of deep and great misery where I felt (rightly so) that I was a liar and a fake. I searched for a way to extricate myself, my family, and my church, from this unsustainable (and, let’s face it, ridiculous) situation in a way that did not cause great pain to beautiful people. But I could not find one. Perhaps a better man could have. I could not. And so, tired of being a pretender, worried that my children would never truly know me, weary of letting “fear” of ruin be the guiding factor in my life… I just quit. Because I could not see a scenario where drawing things out and making a slow departure caused even one less tear to fall… out of nowhere, without grace or elegance or warning – I just quit. I walked away from it all. I ripped off the band-aide. And I’m happy I did.

These days I sell cyber-security to mid-sized enterprises and live in a rented house with my new bride, Michelle (the love of my life). Together we have seven children. I am at peace and happy.

To the Christians reading this and feeling anger towards me…

I didn’t go into the ministry, leave my family in CA, move to NW Missouri, and limp along financially for two decades for any other reason than that I was head-over-heels in love with Jesus. I was a true believer that happened to, through no fault of my own, get a glimpse behind the curtain and see that there is no wizard after all. I did not “abandon” my faith because I was not looking for a way to justify a desire for a sinful lifestyle (even as an unbeliever, for two years, I lived as a squeaky clean choirboy) I did not suffer “burnout” or get angry with “the Lord” because I have a handicapped daughter. It may make you feel better to think so, but it’s not true. I was just doing my job, studying the Bible, asking questions, and seeking answers. If it makes you uncomfortable that a devout and passionate pastor can come to the place where he no longer believes in the God of the Bible – so be it. Be uncomfortable. Be bothered. You really should be (we all should be). But, please, resist the urge to make me a villain. If you are angry that someone stood in the pulpit and told you things that aren’t true. I hear you. I know your pain. The same exact thing happened to me.

After eight years at that first church I grew tired of Midwest weather (I am a southern Californian through and through) and I moved my wife and (at that time) two kids to the Philippines where I had taken a position teaching at a Bible college. And (yup, you guessed it) the cycle continued… The students listened to me the way I had listened to my instructors/pastors and absorbed my teaching as if I were an expert on history, ancient languages, archeology, and evolutionary biology. Why would they not believe me? I was a pastor after all. I had a successful ministry, I was a decent and sincere guy, and (and this is important) I knew more than they did [b]Who were they to question? And my students in SE Asia were no different than I was in Bible college, no different than the people back at my church in St. Joseph, no different (in my opinion) than the vast majority of people who fill the pews every Sunday in churches across the world [b]world—we believe because we want to believe, and we strengthen our belief by setting ourselves before people we respect and absorbing their teachings as (pun intended) gospel truth . After all, how can good men with good intentions (and the Good Book!) be wrong?

But, over the course of the next ten years, I slowly came to the realization that I was wrong – that my teachers and pastors, all those voices on the cassette tapes, were themselves very wrong. Not evil, not dumb, not charlatans – just… blinded by good intentions and wishful thinking, ignorant and misinformed. Just like me.

So how does a faithful pastor come to the place of losing his faith? I describe it in these terms… Imagine two folders in your brain. One folder contains all the things that that strengthen faith (remember that long list of scriptures I shared earlier?) and the other folder contains all the things about God that we don’t understand (God-mandated-genocide, Torah endorsed slavery, Heaven’s command to kill babies, eternal conscious torment, etc.). For me, and for years, the folder that contained faith-strengthening evidences was far larger than the folder containing faith-depleting evidences. And so I continued on because, “Who am I to question God? A God who can be fully understood is not a God worthy of worship! God is mysterious! His ways are not our ways!” (so on and so forth). But then, one by one, without me even really being aware of it, things in the first folder were making their way into the second folder. Faith-building passages were becoming faith-depleting passages. The folders were tearing.

And so, ten years into my second church plant (The Edge), on the morning of November 12, 2012, I woke up to spend some quiet time with God and his word. And, as I read the passage about Jesus casting a multitude of demons into a herd of swine, it hit me (based on what I knew about the evolution of demonology in the intertestamental period)… this is ridiculous. And poof, just like that, I realized there was nothing, not one thing, left in my “faith folder.” Please understand and hear me; I was not “in sin,” I was not looking at porn, or embezzling money, or sleeping with anyone’s wife – I was a born-again believer who loved Jesus and His church and was desperately trying to be the very best Bible teacher and pastor I could be. I did not lose (or abandon) my faith because I wanted to justify an unholy lifestyle. I lost my faith in the course of doing my job as a pastor. I lost my faith by studying the Bible.

“What the heck am I going to do!?” That was the question reverberating in my now faithless brain. What does one do when they are the founding and teaching pastor at a church of 500 adults with 2 locations and a large mortgage and they no longer believe in the book they are paid to teach? What does a man in his mid-forties do when his only marketable skills and means of financially supporting his family are tied up in preaching faith in a God in whom he no longer has faith? Do I tell people the conclusions I have come to, quit, and hurt hundreds of good people? Do I, in the name of integrity, leave my job and put my family (by now I have 4 kids) in financial peril? I felt stuck. Unbelievably stuck. It was a daunting and complicated puzzle that I could not seem to solve. And so I pressed on.

https://clergyproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/james-morgan.jpg

I was at the end of an ever-fraying rope when I wandered into a southern California church. Sick of who I was, and how I was living, I sat down on a pew and nervously awaited what I hoped would be a divine intervention (I sure as heck needed one). Years of drug and alcohol abuse had left me desperate for a fresh start and a new way to “be.” One hour and fifteen minutes later, I found exactly what I had been looking for (funny how that works). A faithful congregant led me in the “sinners prayer,” gave me a brand new cellophane-wrapped bible, and sent me on my way with the belief that God had created me, sent his son to die for me, and had a wonderful plan for my life.

I ate it up and drank it in. I needed it.

Belief is a powerful thing – and I BELIEVED. I got a job (and actually kept it), gave up drugs and alcohol, and threw myself into service for God with abandon; three times a week church attendance, intensive daily bible study, street evangelism on the beaches of Orange County. Within three months of my conversion I was teaching home bible studies, and within a year or so I was off at bible college: learning how to plant churches and teach the scriptures verse-by-verse. A zealot was born.

When I think back to those early days of my conversion I think about cassette tapes. Remember those? During the first couple years I had them (almost literally) coming out my ears. I devoured hundreds of hours of bible-teaching taught by ardent proponents of the scripture’s inerrancy. Good and sincere men provided me with reason after reason after reason to KNOW that the Bible is a divinely inspired book. Their chief argument? [b]Fulfilled prophecy proves that God exists, is outside of time, and that his word can be trusted. [/b]And so I trusted. Big time.

Side Note: For me, my faith was never as much about feelings as it was about facts. But that is not to say that I didn’t have feelings. I LOVED Jesus with all my heart. I had intense feelings for and about God. He who is forgiven much loves much. I had been forgiven a ton and I therefore loved him so very much. In my mind, Jesus had given me life, true life, and every good thing I had ever experienced was from him. I reveled in the immeasurable grace that had washed me clean and given me access to Heaven and a relationship (not a religion!) with God.

Ok, back to my story…

But, despite my intense passion (feelings) for God and His Son, I knew (and still do) that feelings are very subjective. And that if we, as Christians, are going to be able to say to Muslims and Hindus, and Buddhists (and atheists) that WE have the true faith, well… we need some facts! And so passages like Genesis 22, Genesis 37, Genesis 49, 1 Samuel 7, Psalms 22, 110 and 118, Isaiah 53, Jeremiah 31, Daniel 9 (oh! Daniel 9!), Matthew 24, and Revelation 13 – (and many more) gave me undeniable “proof”(facts!) that the God of the Universe had indeed delivered a reliable and trustworthy message. And so, with these faith-building facts in hand, my new bride and I moved halfway across the country to plant our first church.

Calvary Chapel of St. Joseph, MO started in my basement. We had a full band (the drums had to be setup in the laundry room), a “kid’s ministry” (which took place upstairs in the living room), an impassioned young bible teacher (yours truly), and a God given mandate to change the city and make disciples. After just a few short months we were able to secure a 110-year-old brick behemoth of a church building (stained glass and all) in the downtown section of the city. We plugged in the guitars, set up the drums, and I preached my newly converted heart out (I’d been a believer for less than 3 years at this point) and waited for the pews to fill. And slowly they did.

Eight years later we were a church of 400+ adults running two services on Sunday morning, one on Sunday night, and a mid-week on Wednesday. We had purchased an adjacent parking lot, a small office building, and two houses across the street for children’s and youth ministry. And somewhere along the way (insert guilty sigh) I became yet another voice of theological certainty (yes, also recorded on cassette tapes) regurgitating and parroting the same set of “undeniable biblical proofs” that had been preached to me by respectable men with impressive ministries. And I took my place in the cycle of convinced but misinformed people creating others who are convinced but misinformed, creating others who are convinced but misinformed. Ugh. I began to, unknowingly and without any conscious deceit, do unto others what had been done unto me.

blessedvisky:
You Claim you also went online to do "research".

Well your post already shows you just came to beat empty chest.
Try and Google the following
"scientific errors in the quran "
" contradictions in the quran"
" muslim to atheist stories"

You can also visit youtube.com and type the above I listed for you. . That should show you first hand proof. Come back and tell me what you find. Deal??
Let me make things a bit easy. Search for "Taiwo Gold Ayodeji" here on Nairaland. Also look for this guy "exmuslim1" ( Im not sure if he has deactivated or not)


Do this assignment and get back to me. OK.??
Check this out
https://www.nairaland.com/3288458/taiwo-gold-ayodeji-renounces-religion
https://www.nairaland.com/3308859/renounce-islam-now-deist

Coldhardtruth pls educate this guy

I just dey see this now

OP, kindly go to these threads

Allah Vs Atheism: ‘leaving Islam Was The Hardest Thing I’ve Done’ Amal Farah

and

My Journey To Atheism (A Story Of An Ex Muslim)

there are many more such threads that would surface in the future

hopefully, deluded and ignorant threads like this don't pop up again

supernatural is just what's not yet understood

Ranchhoddas:
By saying that their families could have been paid off, he has denied that anything happened. I only wonder how many familes would have been paid off considering the sheer number of these testimonies? He should also realize that popularity has to nothing to do with anything, although people like Ogenyi Onazi and Jim Iyke have had ''miraculous encounters'' in TBJ's church (I don't remember the details and I believe the guy is a fraud though). My hypothesis is that there are guidelines regarding the receival of these 'miracles'. If these 'famous cripples' do not pay heed to these guidelines; whose fault is it then that they haven't received their 'miracles'?

isn't it strange that "none" not one single nationally known cripple haven't "paid heed" to those "guidelines" that get those "unknown" cripples healing?

what are the odds?

think about it

when we ask for limb growing miracle, you can see these apologists open threads to make excuses for their omnipotent god; using every explanation possible

a certain Joagbaje said they need "creative miracle"; whatever that means

doesn't that tell you that the main miracle seem impossible? even those pastors that cure cancer, make blind see, lame walk wouldn't dare try an amputee

and about family members being paid off, are you really saying its not possible to all have been staged?

Anas09:
You seem to believe a Muslim. I dont ve his time.

on the contrary, I don't believe anyone or disbelieve anyone based on his/her religious affiliation

I just like filtering the insults out of conversations while getting messages the other person is trying to pass

Anas09:
And am suppose to stoop and respond to you right? No, sorry, my attention is not that cheap. Now look down there you'd see a group of lowlives, you'd mix up just fine there. Now move.

nah, you don't need to reply him with insults, just answer the below

WORDWORLD:
WHERE IS THE PROVE I ASKED YOU TO SHOW TO THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD THAT I EVER HAD A CONVERSATION WITH YOU AND WHICH I DECLARED MYSELY AN ATHEIST.

this is his basis of calling you a liar

if these accusations are true

4evergod

winner01:
The last attempt to revive your dead thread was by your alternate moniker.
Try to be covert at least you lonely pest.

maybe I'm hopefullandlord, maybe I'm not
using your very intelligent logic, you're also KingEbuka, since he also bumps up your thread

interesting how monickers is giving you so much headache

hahn:
4evergod, kingebukasblog, winner01, honorhim long time

lol

CeoMYN:
Naso bros

what were the odds?

good one

sonofluc1fer:
- Wetin concern black man concern Abraham?
- Why did Jesus die for my sin without my permission? Who send am message?
- Why do I still go to hell if Jesus died for my sin? Why do I have to believe to get benefits? Afterall, he paid without my signature.

Life is not a choice between Atheism and Christianity. Theism, which is the direct opposite of Atheism, has many religious streams : Islam and Christianity are merely the youngest, and their rise in numbers is a consequence of their hunger for conquest.

Atheism and irreligion is only a natural response to a society that is oversaturated with religion - where there are more churches than healthcare centers on many streets, where major highways can be blocked in the name of worshiping the violent Abrahamic Gods of our slavemasters, where Pastors use the Bible to rape the poor and downtrodden.

When church membership in Nigeria begins to drop, know that the country has started taking the first steps to progress.

So Op, before you focus on atheism, fix your Christianity. It's damage on our psyche will take a long time to fix and our society has been worse for it.

SENSE!!!!

Nice Thread!

aaccountable1:
the closest synonym to desolate is forsaken. at least it is closer than unhappy. forsaken, abandoned, deserted, lonely...... those are the right words
Absalom slept with Tamar his sister! Absalom filled with hate, planned his revenge for two years and then killed Am non..... committed the same crime against his own sister for which he was avenging her. look for something else to say. sounds like a coldhardlie!

I still don't understand how this answers my question about if there was ever a proposal between Amnon and Tamar let alone Tamar rejecting, evidence on your Bible points towards there being no proposal

the law only applied to the perpetrator not the victim.... we can almost take it for granted that she can refuse since the law was not addressed to her.

the problem here is that the Bible states

"He must marry her"

not he would propose to her or offer her marriage which might have hinted that she can refuse; you made that up in order to make sense of it

hell, the Jacob story actually proves me right to a large extent because unlike Amnon/Tamar that's the ONLY recorded good example of rape

and we see them accept the proposal "due to the law" in place and the sons couldn't have any say since the proposal was officially made

so they "accepted" which they were obliged to do but decided to kill them when they were sore from a circumcision which was ordered by Jacob's sons as a condition

anyways, I'm still looking for any advantage a girl has from marrying her rapist

where Amnon was denied marriage by Tamar

and ive been talking from a girls perspective
all along, in case you've been missing that

I still ask my question here AGAIN


1. show me where its written that
"Tamar refused to marry Amnon"

2. Show me where its written that "a rape victim has an option to refuse her rapist's marriage advance"

let me tell you why Amnon most likely didn't propose to Tamar at any point let alone Tamar refusing the proposal

before doing the deed, Tamar asked for marriage when Amnon was overpowering her, saying they should marry and they can have sex

Amnon raped her anyways and "Hated her"

then told the servants to "send her away"

2 Samuel 13 KJV 15-18

Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone.

And she said unto him, There is no cause: this evil in sending me away is greater than the other that thou didst unto me. But he would not hearken unto her.

Then he called his servant that ministered unto him, and said, Put now this woman out from me, and bolt the door after her.

And she had a garment of divers colours upon her: for with such robes were the king's daughters that were virgins apparelled. Then his servant brought her out, and bolted the door after her

its pretty obvious that he wouldn't have proposed since

"Absalom cared for Tamar in his own home and would not speak to Amnon"

it shows that Amnon most likely didn't see Tamar again after sending her away

bros

desolate simply means unhappy

I still ask you, how do you KNOW Amnon at any point proposed marriage and paid silvers to their parent? pls give verses for this

and when you do bring Amnon and Tamar, you're actually being a bit dishonest by ignoring the shame in a brother sleeping with his sister or vice versa
because that's the case in Tamar and Absalom

Absalom in the verse you quoted told her sister to hold HER peace because of the shame it'll bring to his family

I already knew Amnon's example was a very wrong one but decided to see where it leads

anyways, without filling in nonexistent gaps or making up tales, can you do the below?

1. show me where its written that
"Tamar refused to marry Amnon"

2. Show me where its written that "a rape victim has an option to refuse her rapist's marriage advance"

aaccountable1:
"if the girl is already betrothed, the man should be killed . if she is not then the man must marry her"
the whole essence of this law is clear enough. To protect the girl.
because the man has publicly humiliated her he should marry her.

bros, at NO point so far did you look at things from the victim's perspective

at no point in those chapters was it stated that the victim had ANY say in this

rapist should pay money and MUST marry the victim

and bros, you don't still see anything wrong here?

aaccountable1:
2Sa 13:20 And Absalom her brother said unto her, Hath Amnon thy brother been with thee? but hold now thy peace, my sister: he is thy brother; regard not this thing. So Tamar remained desolate in her brother Absalom's house.
obviously, Tamar did not marry amnon.
the sons of Jacob refused to give their sister in marriage to shechem, after he had raped her.

the law only reserved the right of refusal to the girls family. the man on the other hand must marry her.

bros

don't be dishonest here by filling in gaps

let this discussion be intelligent

Tamar didn't marry Amnon and the reasons are VERY CLEAR if you read the chapter very well

first off, after raping Tamar, Amnon HATED her, hated her more than he loved her, its obvious he didn't propose a marriage, neither did he pay money to their parents, if you know he did kindly state the verses and I'll check it out myself

the story of Shechem was a different thing entirely

Jacob actually agreed to give his daughter out

the sons were angry and killed the Shechems

AT NO POINT DID THEY ASK THE OPINION OF DINAH (THE RAPE VICTIM)

Mr Accountable, I'm still waiting for the book, chapter and verse that confirms what you typed previously

and I never said the law "encourages" or "discourages" rape


my point still is a "rape victim should marry her rapist"

whether it encourages or discourages rape is a discussion for another day

let me type the ask again

bros, abeg show me where its written that

"Tamar refused to marry Amnon"

and also where its written that

"the girl has an option to refuse her rapist's marriage request"

aaccountable1:
*[[Deu 22:28-29/KJV]]* 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
your bias blinds u.
this law is to prevent rather than encourage rape. the man who does this is compelled to marry the damsel because he has publicly humiliated her and she might have difficulty getting respectably married.
the man is bound to marry her after paying a fine to the father, whether he likes it or not.
the damsel on the other hand has an option..... an opportunity to refuse! a refusal that will therefore be publicly known as Tamar refused to marry amnon. the law is only to the girls advantage.
I do not at all see anything wrong with it.

you Christians just spin tales out of thin air to defend the indefensible

bros, abeg show me where its written that

"Tamar refused to marry Amnon"

and also where its written that "the girl has an option to refuse"

if you provide these things with book, chapter and verse, I'll agree with you because those are the only two points you made in your long epistle


I'll be waiting

remember; book, chapter and verse

thanks in advance

Millerz:
[s]Troll, always spamming christian threads with balderdash.[/s] There's absolutely nothing wrong in that verse you quoted. According to the old law, he is to marry her (obviously with the consent of her parents and elders) and treat her as a wife and never divorce her. Most of our parents or grandparents married at the time when they had no say about their impending marriages.

yeah babe

nothing wrong with a rape victim marrying her attacker because its old law

your holy book has next to NO regard for women, at no point in that passage did they even consider what opinion the woman has

"rapist should pay money to the parents of his victim and must marry her"

I'm talking to a female, a female is actually defending this?


NB: I'm still waiting for anything good in a RAPE VICTIM MARRYING HER RAPIST; that was the discussion, don't bring parents into this

rape victim marrying her rapist

Millerz:
What is wrong in that passage you just quoted. Next before commenting, bring your brain along.

hey, why not tell me what's right about a rape victim marrying her rapist?

before replying, bring your brain along.

raphieMontella:
maybe im coldhardtruth too... Well what do i know?

hopefullandlord again!

thesicilian:
But it is very obvious that evolutionism is one of the bedrocks of atheism. The truth is, every system of belief has its flaws and questions without answers. ( eg, how did we get here? why are we here? how is it all going to end?) No one has all the answers.
The author talked about faith as being dumb because there is no evidence. Atheists too, unknowingly, demonstrate a certain level of faith also, just not in God. They demonstrate faith in themselves, faith in the ability of the universe to protect and provide for them, faith in the system to work, and so on..

atheism is simply the lack of belief in deities/gods, that's where it ends; an atheist can have 'faith' in many other things or fellow human, if there's a chair and I want to sit, I have faith in the chair, so long it has no obvious defect, atheists can have 'hope' but that doesn't make such a person theist

atheism does not have any set of rules

winner01:
lol. Damage control tactics not working.

so I'm not ValentineMary?
Hmmmm!

johnydon22:
You seem really perturbed by this thread

isn't it hilarious?

some piggin even opened a thread to call all my stories fake

right here https://www.nairaland.com/3354076/sos-atheists-trying-use-nl

felixomor:
Dirty in the mud strategy wont work.
Mixing ghosts with humans.

Lol

you keep embarrassing yourself and I'm just here having fun seeing you pulling a Sherlock according to you

maybe I'm all those monickers

Hmmm!

felixomor:
Lol, welcome

thank you bro

in one night, I went from Coldhardtruth to Hopefullandlord to Stephendamsoho to ValentineMary

what next? Johnnydon22? RaphieMontella? Weah96?

ValentineMary:
Nice story.

hopefullandlord again!