₦airaland Forum

butterflyl1on:
Execute and criminals are just words.

Human societal laws simply evolve as our interests pique or wane in those directions and how then can this make anything stable when today we even have people getting married to objects like cars, chairs, shoes. Where then do societal laws find its limits .

They are words that carry weight.

It is the same human societal laws that have evolved over time that has allowed us to create many mordern societies.

There are always crazy people in every society.

Marrying cars and shoes are not recognized in any society that I know even though some crazies might do it.

butterflyl1on:
So killing an enemy of the state is not murder because a pen and paper says it's not?

It's not unlawful that you murdered a man because he is seen as an enemy of the state and the law said for such death is allowed. In other words you got a license to kill in a premeditated manner.

Sure, so long as the society says it's not unlawful then it remains so. It is not murder. People that execute criminals are not murderers.

DoctorAlien:
Would the leaders not deem rape as beneficial to the society if ALL of them are of the view that rape is really good and beneficial to them as individuals and to the society(despite what your opinion on rape is)?

If they would, is rape really good?

You are still not answering my questions. What reasons can the leaders give for rape being beneficial to the society?

butterflyl1on:
Chai.

If killing can be interpreted to mean murder or assassination does it mean killing of a person never took place?

If I murder someone for the sake of the society, to me it is murder but for the society laws to make it legal or give me a cover they can change it to "I eliminated a national threat"

Does that mean I did not commit murder?

The dictionary defines murder as:

murder
ˈməːdə/
noun
1.
the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Killing an enemy of the state is NOT murder because it is NOT unlawful.

DoctorAlien:
Sir, but you were the one that agreed that the leaders determine what is beneficial/right for the society.

You also agreed that the probability of a society where 99.9% of the members say each that racism, murder and adultery is beneficial to them, and where the leaders of the society are among the 99.9%, to exist is not 0. (We don't care whether the society exists for just 1 second or for 1 trillion years.)

In such a society, would the leaders deem racism, murder and adultery beneficial / good for the society? If yes, are these things really good?

If they would not deem them good, why?

(I don't understand why you're asking me to tell you how those things are beneficial to the society. Am I part of the society? )

You can start by telling me how the leaders will deem rape as beneficial to the society. Let's begin from there.

butterflyl1on:
racism is part of evolutionary natural selection of these weak being left behind while the strong go forward.

Empty assertion, how is it beneficial to the society?

Murder can be beneficial if the target is a threat to national interest or societal values.

In this case it is NOT murder. Eliminating anybody that is a threat to national interest or peace of the society as a whole is NOT murder. Most societies encourage that as a matter of fact.

Rape can be beneficial to someone who wants to use it to make a claim to government grants. If he or she know this, then they can arrange for their own rape for this purpose.

I didn't say you should tell me why rape is beneficial to some fraudulent person that wants to use it to get grants. You are to tell me why it is beneficial to the society as a whole.

All these scenarios are beneficial to these individuals who make up the society. This is why we can have people inflicting accidents on themselves for the sake of making insurance claims to their own benefit as a part of the society. A lot of people in the society are doing so.

People doing these acts are violating the laws of the land. I am not asking for examples of fraudulent people. I just want to know the general benefit of rape to a society at large.

butterflyl1on:
Dalaman to add to what DoctorAlien said here, in the days of GEJ He made a declaration that stealing is not corruption which was an underhanded way of endorsing looting and we saw a mass exodus if our common wealth under him.

Would you say he was wrong to have said or done that Afterall he is one of your leaders who determined the societal laws.

Stealing is corruption under the constitution. A leader can violate the constitution but it doesn't make their actions right in the eyes of the law of the land.

The Nigerian constitution is what guides our conduct as a people, GEJ alone can not change it. He can only violate it which makes his actions wrong.

DoctorAlien:
You, sir, agreed that such a society could exist i.e. the probability of its existence is not zero. Note: no one cares whether it exists for 1 second or for 1 trillion years.

You, sir, also said that leaders determine what is beneficial for the members of the society. (I no argue o)

Remember, sir, the leaders in this our "society" are among the 99.9% who say each that racism, murder and adultery is beneficial for them(maybe because it gives them pleasure at the expense of others.)

If according to you, leaders determine what is beneficial /right for the society, would the leaders of this our "society" not deem racism, murder and adultery beneficial/right for the society? If they would, are these things really right?

If they would not, why?

No, until you can demonstrate to me why rape, murder and racism is beneficial to any society I see no reason to accept anything you say regarding the leadership of this society saying that it is beneficial to the society.

vaxx:
buterflyl1on argument close....if today his daughter accept to marry a dog ....he will gladly accept so far the law of the land accept it as moral now....dalaman it is not an intended insult ....it just a way to make the moral act of bestiality look shameful

Of course if the society accepts bestiality you will see it as normal. Remember when slavery was accepted people were busy enslaving others.

This pictures are pictures of people living in the US some 100 years ago.

These were your normal Americans that were living at that time. They didn't see anything wrong killing and lyching black people, to most of them it was a thing of pride. Remember these were your average Americans living in the south at that time.

butterflyl1on:
Would you have relations with a gay person?

Sexual relationship?

vaxx:
you do not belive in God existence... So my definition on what is God consciousness to you will not be accepted.... But you have not deal with my question...what is good and bad in the light of common sense? Let's forget about God now....

I don't need to believe in God to understand things of they are well explained.

Good and bad is based on the society and what it choses through its leadership.

butterflyl1on:
so as Vaxx just said, if those who crave sodomy now lobby and harass the government to make it legal and they do. would you subscribe to it as the latest moral law?

Of course. They just did the in the United states. If you are in the US and happen to be a judge that weds people in the courts and gays come to you to wed them, you must do it because it is the law of the land and you can NOT be seen discriminating against them. You do it and you lose your Job or face severe sanctions.

DoctorAlien:
You said that the leaders determine what is beneficial to the society. Why then would racism, murder and adultery be wrong in a society where 99.9% of the members see nothing wrong with racism, murder and adultery, and in which the leaders are among the 99.9%?

Sir, what do the leaders need time to do?

In reality there is no society where 99% will see nothing wrong with murder rape and racism. That is why I told you to tell us why it is beneficial to the society. Even in a society where 99% are rapist they will NOT be able to tell.you why rape is beneficial to the society.

vaxx:
Buterflyl1on ....one day our society we accept bestiality as a culture...... Human rights will protect them....and it shall become moral....

You can see the damage of a society without God consciousness

What is God consiiousness? Societies with God consiousness accepted and practiced slavery, genocide, segregation, pillage, incest, rape etc so what exactly are you saying?

butterflyl1on:
What are the many variables they use to determine what is good and bad?

Some of them might include over all benefit to the society, if it will lead to general societal progress and stability, if it will promote peaceful coexistence and harmony, if it will promote development, if it will make the majority not to disturb the leadership and go against them, If it will keep the people in line and make them not to challenge the leadership, if it will secure the general society as a whole, if it will protect the interest of the leadership and make them look good or have their way etc. There are a myriad of reasons why the leadership will label something as good or evil.

butterflyl1on:
What are those variables? Since society determines this good and bad, is everyone in the society good to be able to determine good? Is everyone evil to be able to determine evil?

In the same society we have rapists and murderers as mentioned by DoctorAlien and they being part of the society can say their actions are good as long as its emotionally beneficial to them.

How then can society in all fairness determine what is good and what is bad when the societal leaders can also rape, murder, steal, etc. Who holds the scale of assessment for God or bad?

The society through its leaders ALWAYS determine what is good and what is bad. The leaders who also double as law makers make laws that affects everybody themselves inclusive. Once the leaders label an act as bad the feelings of those that it affects(Those who engage in the acts like rapist for example doesn't matter.

STUPUDTHEISTS:
Lol. You're not a misotheist. You're a kind of antitheist. A misotheist hates God(s). They accept the existence of god but hates whoever or whatever god is.

You can't be arguing against the existence of Yahweh and then turn around to say you hate him.

Nigger is confused .

butterflyl1on:
If God was used as an enforcing mechanism back in the day what was God used to enforce?

Morality.

vaxx:
I don't have a problems with your stand about God.... My question is what is good and what is bad in the light of common sense? OK lets take God away from it...just reply me...

Good and bad is what the society determines in most cases based on many variables.

butterflyl1on:
Prisoners also live by their own codes outside the prison laws. You agree they can live their lives without discrimination and peacefully. So why then did you assume they would self destruct?

Because they are not killing, raping and discriminating against each other in the prisons. In the prison they know that such actions will NOT be tolerated and practiced and as such they will not practice it. They will put it aside.

DoctorAlien:
But you already agreed that such a society could exist, just that it would be short-lived(because the members would "exterminate" each other out, according to you):



Nobody really cares if the society would exists for 1 second or for 1 trillion years before they "exterminate each other out". The fact is you agree they could exist.

You are contradicting yourself, sir.

Again, going by your assertion that the society in which 99.9% of the members see nothing qrong with racism, murder and adultery could exist at all(be it for 1 second or for 1 trillion years before the extermination occurs): if the leaders in the society are among the 99.9%, is nothing wrong with those things?

Everything will be wrong. The leaders will not even have time to do anything. They will just be murdering, raping and discriminating against each other. There will be total chaos till they end up exterminating themselves.

butterflyl1on:
Prisons are also known as a society. A prison society

society
noun
the aggregate of people living together in a more or less ordered community

A lot of prisoners live by their own codes and a hierarchy system among themselves so who told you murderers, rapists and racially minded individuals cannot live together respectively according to their self given codes and order of hierarchy?

Murderers, rapist and racist don't go about murdering, raping and discriminating against each other in the prison. Once they get there they try to live their lives according to the laid down laws and principles of the prison.

vaxx:
fine ...and this will now birth another question... What is good and what is bad in light of common sense? You will see the importance of God if this questions can be answer genuinely.... I had a topic like this before

God has nothing to do with human morality. God was used as an enforcing mechanism back in the days but now we don't need God anymore. Even with God everything was permissible. Read the Koran Hadiths and the bible. Even with God all sorts of vices and evil were permissble. The bible even has God repenting of his evil deeds.

DoctorAlien:
What right does one have to determine what is beneficial for another person?

In the society where 99.9% of the members see nothing wrong with racism, murder and adultery, If the leaders are among the 99.9%, is nothing wrong with those things?

Every right. That is why some people must lead others because we are social animals that must coexist and coprate with others whether we like it or not for the benefit of the society as a whole.

There is no society where 99% can see nothing wrong with rape and murder. It just can not exist anywhere.

vaxx:
it can happen if rape , racist and murdering become legal.... Gun usage in american is legal.... And that make violence life style increase....homosexually is legal in the western world and that make homosexual case increase in size....if t is allowed..it will become a culture and it will not be seen as immoral..


On nairaland atheism are free to envagilized their Faith....and that make the silent one among them become notice....


Morality can be subjective... It depend on what you want for yourself.... A community may see woman driving a car as an act of immorality... That is what they want...and that is how the community wanted to operate...


In yoruba culture it is immoral to greet elders while standing ,you have to prostrate.... Whereas it is not a problem in igbo culture....



my questions is , do you consider the above act an immoral?

Sure if the society doesn't see murder as wrong then it will not be wrong. The society determines what is right or wrong. During the time of slavery in the US and Europe the people did not consider slavery to be wrong and most of the owned slaves. During the time of Jim crow in the USA, churches were promoting segregation.


Morality is subjective, that's something I've been arguing for years here.

My point is that every society must operate based on some laid down principles and the modern society that we have built today sees rape, murder and racism as offences and rightly so.

DoctorAlien:
I believe I am not the one to determine what is beneficial for people. I also believe you're not the one. If Mr. A(in this case, 99.9% of my society) says that living with someone/something that could kill him is good and beneficial for him, does the opinion of anyone else on whether it is really beneficial to him matter? Is it not really beneficial to him?

The society always determines what is beneficial to its people through its leaders and what is beneficial always changes over time. But as a civilized society that has come about through thousand of years of moral evolution, leaders have come to agree that murdering and rapinh people has no benefit to the society but has many bad effect on the society.

butterflyl1on:
Such a society does exist already. Isn't the prisons a society often with their own self made laws which do not follow ours?

No. Prisons are called correctional facilities for a reason. Tell me the name of the prison where murder, rape and racism is allowed to go on unchecked.

DoctorAlien:
Assuming they exist only for the period of time they exist before they "exterminate" each other out. Assuming also that all of them have evaluated the fact that they could exterminate each other out, but have concluded that the death that could occur from their actions is still beneficial to them(just lIke a suicidal person thinks death is the best for him). Can you now answer:

How is extermination beneficial to a society? Suicide could be beneficial to an individual person for various reasons some of which I can list, but I see NO reason why extermination is beneficial to any society.


Racism, murder and rape have NO benefit to any society at all. It can not be rationally and logical be shown to be beneficial to any society.

chemystery:
Such society can exist!
It happened during the time of Noah in the buybull

DoctorAlien is right after all

DoctorAlien:
You dismiss my argument simply because it started with if? You then went on to claim that the "society" I described "cannot" exist, which means that probability for its existence is 0. Why such a society cannot exist, you failed to tell us.

Nice logic.

A society with 99% of its members as rapist, murderers and racist will exterminate each other out. The society will cease to exist in no time because it is made up of rapist, murderers and racist. They will keep killing, raping and discriminating against each other till they wipe each other off completely.

AgentOfAllah:
But the dalaman is apt to suggest such a society cannot exist. The only way such a society is feasible is if it's a one (wo)man society where the sole inhabitant is all three (racist, murderer and rapist), and has lost 1% of their body.

Why one percent of their body?

DoctorAlien:
Still going farther off the lane.

It's disappointing.

You want me to follow you and be playing your silly games?

I said it's IMPOSSIBLE for a society to exist with 99% of its inhabitants as rapist, murderers and racist.

Such a society can not exist anywhere .

Even rapist, murderers and racist can NOT tell you how and why their actions are beneficial to any society.

But then you want to start talking about Hitler as if your own God(and his prophets ) is better than him from the biblical stories.