₦airaland Forum

Ah I nor fit do that one oh, I don even tire for de thread well well; you just have to read through anyway for full context, I beg.

debosky:
I agree as well, but was such a case presented herein?

If you mean on this thread - YES!

Whatever the case about what is on the website and whether the owner of the site should amend it (which I have no clue about), I think it is very very pertinent to point out, certainly in the context of this thread at least, when a case/argument/presentation for "voluntary" tithing does not really mean "voluntary" tithing. I think that much is very legitimate.

sexkillz:
Hmm!  Im about to post the BEST QUESTIONS I'VE READ ON ATHEISTS! Culled from the NET!

[b]1- Why don't atheists have any ORIGINAL arguments?
2- Why don't atheists do any research?
3- Why don't atheists "open-mindedly" look at research if they actually do any?
4- Why do atheists invent imaginary dialogue when trying to "prove" a point?
5- Why do atheists use "hypothetical" questions/situations & expect people to give them any credibility?
6- Why do atheists insist on quoting Biblical Scripture, when they don't believe a word of it? (That only allows for their arguments to be thrown out the window.)
7- When quoting Scripture, why do atheists ALWAYS miss the context of the passage?
8- Why do atheists resort to tactics like "changing the subject /re-directing the topic, "the straw man", (our favorite to shoot down) etc. and dragging out unnecessarily long replies with no actual answer to the question being asked?
9- Why do atheists insist it's the BELIEVER'S responsibility to "prove" God's existence, when THEY are the ones making the opposing challenge?
10- Why can't atheists provide a solid case for their refutation of Christianity?
11- Why do atheists continue to use claims, statements, arguments (etc.) made by Antony Flew, when HE openly admitted that he was wrong?
12- Why do atheists think using "big words" will make them sound more intelligent?
13- Why do atheists continue to read my questions, even though I've gone PAST 10!!?
14- If an atheist was alone in the woods, and there was nobody around to hear him/her talking, would they STILL sound like an id[i]i[/i]ot?
15- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
16- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
17- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
18- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
19- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
20- Why do atheists always prove to be such douchebags?
21- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
22- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
23- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
24- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
25- Did the atheists even catch the douche bag reference?
26- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
27-Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
28- If you're an atheist, why are you STILL reading this?
29 - ANSWER to #28; Because you're looking for the TRUTH, & you realize it's out there somewhere, but you haven't found it yet. (Let me also refer you to question # 25.)
30- Why do atheists insist WE need to provide "Original" claims, beliefs, statements, arguments, (etc.) when THEY all sling the same old crap that's been passed from atheist generation to atheist generation?
31- STILL HERE?
32- You MUST be desperate for SOMETHING! Is it for an answer? Or is it for something to make fun of, concerning my list?
33- Here's something funny, an atheist!
34- Q: How many atheists does it take to screw in a lightbulb? A: None. They expect GOD to do it, to "PROVE" he exists.
35- How much longer are you going to read this list of 10 questions
36- I knew you’d read this one too! You atheists are SOOOO predictable.
37- Now I'm having fun,  these aren't even questions anymore!
38- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
39- #38 WAS a question
40- Can you PROVE you're an atheist?
41- This is too easy.
42- Why do atheists make claims, & statements, but never give evidence to back them up?
43- Why do atheists always answer questions with more questions?
44- Why are THOSE questions even more ridiculous than the original claim or question they asked?
45- Why do atheists use the same arguments over & over?
46- Why are atheists STILL reading this
47- Why do atheists only accept “scientific evidence” selectively based on whether or not they think it works in their favor?
48- Is it stupidity, or ignorance?
49- Why will the atheists continue to use the same old arguments over & over & over when they get mad enough to respond to this list?
50- Woohoo! 50 questions / proofs that atheism is for morons! Think I'm wrong? Just ask around. Ask Richard Dawkins for advice if you'd like. I don't care. He's an id[i]i[/i]ot too.
Have fun with this list because, all you'll end up doing is making yourself look even more uneducated if you try to mock it.[/b]

Mad funny ish  The one highlighted in red was an issue in this religion section recently. 

Ah nuke, I had reserved this last point until now.

Apart from my later deliberate dig at Joagbaje and his boss, please do a quick go through the posts and ascertain (you don't even have to reveal publicly) who has been throwing insults all over the place ----- even from the very first page of the thread.

Especially in light of recent exchanges with debosky, I'd like to state something again plainly on record because there have been several false insinuations.

Those of us who are described as "antitithers" have stated repeatedly that we have nothing against a person who chooses to "tithe" (in any form) voluntarily --- especially if the person knows that tithing is not an obligation for a Christian!

Here is part of a post of mine from earlier this year https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-599711.0.html#msg7686037

There are people who teach/preach "tithing" in honest error usually simply preaching it as obligation --- but not as a necessary guarantee of prosperity. This is true of some older type/traditional churches in Nigeria (I was in one such yesterday).

There are frauds who know that tithing is not a Christian obligation or who don't even care but simply use the preaching of "tithing" as a means of fleecing the flock so as for themselves to get rich. Such people are beneath contempt.

Believe me, if I arrive in Nigeria today my local church that I will attend is one that teaches tithing ----- yet, I will still happily join them in worship.  

^^^Again, thank you feri feri feri mushly!

debosky:
I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I'll answer anyway!

As it is voluntary in nature, it can be done in the ways you've described, as well as in any other form determined by the giver. The acceptability or otherwise is left to God.

May I add: that is when "voluntary" truly means voluntary!

^^^ So was that "church" or were the people in that "church" born again or not?

debosky:
I'm not sure if this is directed at me or not, but I'll answer anyway!

As it is voluntary in nature, it can be done in the ways you've described, as well as in any other form determined by the giver. The acceptability or otherwise is left to God.

^^^Thank you very muchly --- "A Daniel comes to judgment!"

The questions were first asked on page 3 ---- about the third post I made on the thread. I assure you if they had been answered directly, honestly, straightforwardly and clearly as you did, for someone preaching/believing in "voluntary" tithing, the thread would not have dragged on my part or due to me!

debosky:
My view is that the crucial aspect is that the spoils of war belonged to Abram, hence he had control/ownership over it and hence could give it to God as tithe, essentially as an act of worship.

In that sense, regardless of what you own, you can give a portion (be it a tithe, 1% or 90%) of it to God as an act of worship. That to me is the essence of Abram's example, not a the specifics of what he gave.

The above applies if you agree with the voluntary tithing view.

I agree completely - charity, giving, whatever you call it is the key, which is why I am not a supporter of people having to tithe as a separate form of giving. To my mind they are all one and the same.

Dayua!

I get plenty of time today madam, and I use it how I want to --- small time now I dey go outside go do some fishing from inside River Thames. Nice.

Dayua!

If so why has it been difficult to get honest, straightforward, clear and direct answers to the following two questions, for example?


1. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only using money or can it be done in any other form e.g. with food crops, clothing etc?

2. Is the "voluntary" tithing to be done only by giving money (or any other thing acceptable) in/to "church" or can the tither instead choose to give the "tithe" to widows, orphans or other needy charitable causes?

Ok, oh e good and thank you oh; and I gree ya answer too.

But if you fit helep us make you also answer nuclearboy hin own question about Abram tithe too; thank you very muchly!

Your own na to do fraud and deceive; when it come to intelligent discussion, na to pick race. No problem, long may you be the slave of your "spiritual vagabond" and "bastard" master.

Joagbaje:
Is prayer compulsory or voluntary? Whatever the answer , same goes or tithing

Enigma:
^^^ OK prayer IS compulsory.

So, please answer this direct: is tithing compulsory?

Oya now answer question, abi fear still dey catch you?

Enigma:
Unfortunately, you are still missing my/our point.

OK let me ask you one of the questions that we have posed so far; this even assumes that the "tithes" are to be taken in/to church --- as symbolising high priest.  

If we are practising tithing based on Abram's example, can we choose to do it with anything other than money or must it be only money?

debosky, how far now? You no see my question?

debosky:
I disagree - if we take other actions of Abraham as evidence/symbolism of things to come - his faith, his circumcision, his encounter with Melchizedek, why can't a tithe (albeit recorded as a one-off) by Abraham serve as inspiration for people today?

What I would say is that it is unlikely that 'modern tithing' (whatever this specific definition is) could have arisen solely from Abram/Abraham's example, without reference to practices under the law, just as any aspect of Christian doctrine (including broader giving) cannot be completely extricated from practices under the law.

It depends on how 'rigid' or literal you choose to be in applying this principle/example

If Abram gave his own tithe 'voluntarily' to the priest and you choose this as your reference/principle/example, then you will be inclined to believe that the 10% should go to such a priestly representative of God, as Pastors are regarded by many.

Abram didn't exhibit various types of 'tithing' - i.e. splitting that 10% between various recipients, so it follows that a literal adherence to the Abram 'principle' will not be supportive of spreading this giving outside the priestly representative of God.

Unfortunately, you are still missing my/our point.

OK let me ask you one of the questions that we have posed so far; this even assumes that the "tithes" are to be taken in/to church --- as symbolising high priest.  

If we are practising tithing based on Abram's example, can we choose to do it with anything other than money or must it be only money?

Zikkyy:
This what am talking about. for people like you 'voluntary' can be interpreted to mean "if you like do, if you like don't. na you lose'

No be hin don run away so ---- e fit be say we go wait three days before hin go "remember" dis thread and "search" for am.

^^^ OK prayer IS compulsory.

So, please answer this direct: is tithing compulsory?

^^^Ah, I had given the benefit of doubt in the past; tested and found wanting.

Even this thread doesn't warrant that benefit: I'll tell you something, if I choose to dissect that portion of wordtalk's post that is often quoted/cited as the answer you will be able to see more clearly that it is really a non-answer to the pertinent questions that were posed. I just haven't felt the need to bother to dissect it so far.

Obviously though, it is fair for others who see things differently to give that benefit of doubt.

@Nuke

I understand you ---- except I have a different impression of wordtalk's position. In my view there is nothing to hold against a person who preaches "voluntary" tithing and in doing so agrees that a person who gives 10% (whether in money or otherwise) to charity instead of in/to church is a tither and his action can be appropriately called tithing. 

Soemtimes also Azibalua ----- believe me, despite the elaborate ruse on that one.

Seriously Nuke, i hope you now see that it was NEVER about "emotions" for me!

At least Joagbaje eventually acknowledged his own ruse of Akhozem!

Oh, he too continues to deny that he does use the Azibalua handle too ---- no probleeeem; one day go be one day!

Ah that reminds me! Henry Ford (I believe) once said something to the effect:

'You can have my new model car in any colour that you like - as long as it is black'!

Similarly: tithing is voluntary ---- as long as it is money and it is taken in/to church. 

Zikkyy:
My brother, which one be Abram principle? most people are tithing to 'hammer'

i think such views will be personal. for the man that renders his tenth to either charity or church, yes he believes he is tithing (that's the easy bit ). I think a good number of peeps that chose to render their tenth to the church, giving a tenth of income to charity cannot be tithing (otherwise they would be doing it). From pastoral perspective, rendering a tenth of your income to charity can NEVER be an act tithing if you think i am wrong, ask Jo

From the experience on this thread, obviously no be only Jo think so. 

I stand by the comment below from only my second post on the thread: if the simple logical acknowledgment (assuming Abram is truly the example or "principle" had been made or if honest and straightforward answers had been provided to legitimate questions, the thread would not have needed to have dragged as it did and might have even been more "fruitful". Nah, some of us can see through the ruse and will not stand for it.

Until tithe mongers agree that (a) "tithes does not have to be money", and (b) "tithes does not have to be taken into only "church" but can instead also be given to widows, orphans and other needy people etc, they are only playing games and some of us can see through the chicanery.

[quote author=tpia@ link=topic=741092.msg8977480#msg8977480 date=1313989741]i think you need to chill and watch a movie or something.

you're obviously very tense.

get yourself a cold drink while you're at it.

or some hot tea if you live in a cold climate.

you sound like you're caught up in swallows and amazons.[/quote]What is the matter with this one?

nuclearboy:
. . . .

Plus the last question brings something to light (in me). If pro-tithers state that Abram instituted tithing, I think its only fair they follow his rules! If its the Mosaic law, then the rules in that should hold sway! So which is it?

I ask that last question sincerely because in my estimation, it puts all pro-tithers in a quandary and I wonder if scripture and good sense can get them out of it - I want to know.  . . .

Zikkyy:
The modern day tithing is not based on any of these (though it appear to be a modified version of the Levitical tithe), so there are no rules to follow (other than pastoral rules ).

The claim that modern "tithing" is based on the example of Abram/Abraham is obviously a ruse because many more people are seeing that the arguments for tithing based on Malachi etc are truly untenable.    This is why it is important to seek clarification from those advocating "voluntary" tithing --- how truly "voluntary" is "voluntary".

This thread from page 3 became whether the argument is really for voluntary tithing if it cannot be accepted that it is appropriate to refer to a person whose 10% is in a form other than money or who gives his 10% outside church is a "tither" and his action is "tithing". If so called "voluntary" tithing was truly based on the Abram example or "principle", there will be no hesitation to make the acknowledgment.  

I think you should read the thread from the beginning again --- and you will probably see why the question was important. Moreover, the issue is not about one person's practice but rather what the Bible teaches.

But at least we got "somewhere"!

@debosky

Ah, that was all we asked ---- the person IS a tither!

Obviously one who gives it in/to church is a tither so there is no debate there.

However, like you said, it does not matter whether that 10% is given OUTSIDE the church, the person IS still a tither!

Now here is a thing: one person on this thread said openly that it is not appropriate to call it tithing because it was not given in church. Well, it is this same question that wordtalk refused to answer directly.

Why did you not have problems answering it directly? Because you truly believe in voluntary tithing. In other words "voluntary" means "voluntary" which also means that the tither determines how and where to disburse the 10% --- which may be entirely outside "church".

OK, can I pose these questions to you --- let me test your answers and we will then determine the sufficiency of the answer you point out.

If we believe in voluntary tithing, then:

1. If a person sets aside 10% of his income and gives that 10% to widows/charities and maybe separately gives 5% to "church", is that person "tithing" and a "tither"?

2. If a person sets aside 10%, uses it to buy provisions for widows/orphans etc and gives a separate 5% into church, is the person a "tither" and is that person's action "tithing"?