₦airaland Forum

Thanks a lot Jesoul, one modification has been mad lol made i.e. to the last option; I hope also Mukina sees my request and helps to modify option 3 to read "Mr[i]s[/i]" C.

PS thanks also for your explanation --- obviously you've got my gist of "there are myriad permutations". 

Ah, moderators please forgive my troubling you today.

Kindly modify option 3 so that "Mr" C reads "Mr[i]s[/i]" C; thanks! 

^ Ah, many thanks.

Attention Jesoul or manmustwac!

Please help modify the last option in my poll on the thread linked below to simply read "None of the Three" (i.e. deleting words following "None of the Three"; thanks.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-744234.0.html

@ aletheia

In the event that the last option is not modified ---- and particularly because there have already been a couple of votes: please note that any (wholly unintended) bias in the wording of the last option is adequately offset by the description of Mr A's scenario in the opening post, which specifically uses the word "tithe" in relation to his giving.

Seems I just can't win! 

Moderator, please modify the last option to read simply --- "None of the Three".

Thanks 

Interested voters, please now use this thread https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-744234.0.html#msg9003450

Thanks, manmustwac.

Here are examples of three Christian givers. (I am using just three examples but people can figure out that there are myriad permutations)


1. Mr A earns 1000 a month; unfailingly he gives 100 a month as "tithe" in/to "church"; he gives 50 a month as offering; he then gives up to 20 to other needy causes outside "church".


2. Mr B earns 1000 a month; he gives anything up to 90 in/to church every month, he then gives 110 to other needy causes outside the "church".


3. Mrs C is a seller of "provisions"; any time that she is going to buy stock, she buys 10% extra (e.g. instead of buying 100 cans of milk, she buys 110); she regularly takes the extra 10% to her local orphanage; she then gives about 5% of her net profits in/to "church".


NB Please feel free to vote entirely anonymously without giving any explanation or reason for your post vote. However, I really would be happy to see any reason given for voting in any way at all. Thanks.   


PS An earlier version of this poll has been discontinued for incompleteness. It was here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-744174.0.html

I can't find how to modify the poll; so I will start a new thread.

Attention Moderators: please lock this thread permanently, thanks.

@debosky

How I go fit modify the poll ---- you see wetin you start now?

Ah, Sorry! OK, make I edit am then, thanks.

Phew!    I have now managed to create successfully (!) the poll thread here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-744234.0.html#msg9003450


Please vote and please remember that you can vote anonymously and you do not have to give any reason or explanation for your vote.

Thanks. 

  Please bear with me, I'm still trying to figure out how to add the proper poll.

@debosky, if you are reading, please help a brother out!!!! 

[EDIT] "Hallelujah, free at last"!

Here are examples of three Christian givers. (I am using just three examples but people can figure out that there are myriad permutations)


1. Mr A earns 1000 a month; unfailingly he gives 100 a month as "tithe" in/to "church"; he gives 50 a month as offering; he then gives up to 20 to other needy causes outside "church".


2. Mr B earns 1000 a month; he gives anything up to 90 in/to church every month, he then gives 110 to other needy causes outside the "church".


3. Mrs C is a seller of "provisions"; any time that she is going to buy stock, she buys 10% extra (e.g. instead of buying 100 cans of milk, she buys 110); she regularly takes the extra 10% to her local orphanage; she then gives about 5% of her net profits in/to "church".


NB Please feel free to vote entirely anonymously without giving any explanation or reason for your post. However, I really would be happy to see any reason given for voting in any way at all. Thanks. 

debosky:
In that case apologies for misreading your post. I agree completely with you that any such surreptitious teaching should be exposed. I'd rather someone come out and hold the view (albeit mistakenly) that tithing is compulsory than try to con people by claiming it is voluntary but really promoting compulsory tithing.

^^^ One thing I like about you so very very very much is your honesty.

God bless.  


PS thanks for explanation of how to make a poll; perhaps I'll just start the thread rather than bother Jesoul.

@ debosky

How do you include a poll in a new thread (that was my original intention)?

However, you have given a good idea and I will ask Jesoul when she comes online whether the poll can actually be added to this thread.

Ta. 

[slight digression]

Anyone know how to start a thread with a poll? I'd like to create a thread where people can vote (anonymously if they prefer) on which of the people in the three examples above is a "tither". If you know how, please describe briefly, thanks.

[/slight digression]

A little exercise to explain the nomenclature point, why it matters whether the wording "tithe/tithing" is used and why there has been unfairness to garyarnold for querying the appropriateness of the continued use of the word "tithing".

Here are examples of three Christian givers. (I am using just three examples but people can figure out that there are myriad permutations)


1. Mr A earns 1000 a month; unfailingly he gives 100 a month as "tithe" in/to "church"; he gives 50 a month as offering; he then gives up to 20 to other needy causes outside "church".


2. Mr B earns 1000 a month; he gives anything up to 90 in/to church every month, he then gives 110 to other needy causes outside the "church".


3. Mrs C is a seller of "provisions"; any time that she is going to buy stock, she buys 10% extra (e.g. instead of buying 100 cans of milk, she buys 110); she regularly takes the extra 10% to her local orphanage; she then gives about 5% of her net profits in/to "church".


Now a couple of points from these three examples>

Anyone who truly believes in voluntary "tithing" must accept that all three are "tithers".*

On the other hand, compulsory "tithers" will say that only Mr A is "tithing" and is a "tither".**

Worse, some compulsory "tithers" will say that only Mr A can enjoy some "special blessings" that derive from "tithing".


EDIT * Anyone who does not accept or even acknowledge that Mr B and Mrs C are "tithers" is in reality preaching compulsory "tithing". QED

Further EDIT (This is quite important): ** some compulsory "tithers", e.g. Chris Oyakhilome, will say that Mr B and Mrs C are robbing God!

aniffy4eva:
@ garyarnold, wordtalk, enigma, nuclearboy, zikkyy, Pastor Kun, debosky, nlmediator etc (please dont be offended if i didnt mention your name, its a pretty long list)

I just want to say a BIG thank you to you all for your insightful comments, I have closely followed your arguments, analysis, conclusions etc and to be honest, i have been fed spiritually (you have no idea), as they have forced me to STUDY the word in-depth on this issue of tithing, offerings, giving etc and arrive at my personal conclusion (i'll keep that to myself)

God bless you all,

Fab, aniffy4eva.

God bless you too.

wordtalk:
'Tithe' in "voluntary tithing" bears the same sense in principle with those found in Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Malachi, Nehemiah, etc. The sense is simply the giving of a tenth of one's resources. I have not argued anywhere to make the giving of voluntary tithes to be in "strict accordance" with any of the passages found in the Bible. The "strict accordance" idea suggests nothing more than a hard-and-fast, prosaic, literal interpretation of those passages - and that is not what I have been arguing to favour.

"Voluntary tithing" is only truly voluntary if the "voluntary tither" can choose to "tithe" not with money but with food, provisions etc and can choose not to give the "voluntary tithe" in/to church but to widows, orphans other charities etc.

In principle of course.



I remind myself once more of the eloquent Sir Humphrey.

It's clear that the Committee has agreed that your new policy is really an excellent plan. But in view of some of the doubts being expressed, may I propose that I recall that after careful consideration, the considered view of the Committee was that, while they considered that the proposal met with broad approval in principle, that some of the principles were sufficiently fundamental in principle, and some of the considerations so complex and finely balanced in practice that in principle it was proposed that the sensible and prudent practice would be to submit the proposal for more detailed consideration, laying stress on the essential continuity of the new proposal with existing principles, the principle of the principal arguments which the proposal proposes and propounds for their approval. In principle.

@ debosky

Just one comment: you actually read into my post something that was not intended though somewhat understandably in the circumstances. Reference to teaching of compulsory tithing surreptitiously as voluntary tithing was not directed at any individual --- it was and is a general reference; bear in mind it was not here on nairaland that I first encountered the teaching of "voluntary tithing" that is not truly voluntary. Some people have been teaching this recently; in fact there was a debate in which it featured/was used on one of the UK "Christian" channels not too long ago.

@ debosky

I gree wetin dey most of ya post ------ except for one thing.

I think you slightly misunderstand what "is not truly biblical". It is entirely biblical as a form of giving to choose to set aside 10% of one's income and give it in/to "church". What we tolerate but we say that is strictly speaking not biblical is the appellation "tithe/tithing" a[i]s though it is the same as any found in Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Malachi, Nehemiah etc. All they have in common is that in each case it is 10% or a tenth ----- beyond that there is no strict accordance with any of the biblical examples or injunctions.[/i] However, remember also that we tolerate the use of the expression"voluntary tithing" when it includes that which the "tither" can give (or "pay" in any form and anywhere even outside "church".

Anyway, as zikky said the far more important thing is to challenge the teaching/preaching of compulsory tithing whether expressly or surreptitiously in the form of "voluntary tithing" that is not truly voluntary.

Zikkyy:
You still don't get it. i don't see anybody claiming he/she tithing according to the bible. Jo for example, is tithing based on some principle he cannot explain

i think what i read people say here is that, if some great men did it in the bible, nothing wrong in us adopting a similar practice take another practice like first fruit, how do you determine the 'first' of the 'first-fruit' of your salary or how do you arrive at a 'sheaf' of the first-fruit of your salary Nna leave matter, as long as there is no standing instruction from the Almighty on the tithing method to adopt, people can define their giving as they deem fit nothing concern me The issue still remains the communications to third parties in an attempt to make them adopt these practices (usually as defined by the pastor)

That is indeed and has always been the issue --- remember we have always said we have no problem if a person chooses to "tithe" - especially if the person knows that it is NOT a Christian obligation. 

@ debosky

PS Don't you know/think I remember when you used to argue more or less (not exactly expressly) in favour of compulsory tithing with me among others as it happens!

debosky:
. . . .
Personally I have ceased to consider myself a 'tither' or anything of the sort - I give as I have decided in my heart and nothing more. I haven't arrived at this point quickly though - I struggled for a long time with ministries that insisted tithing was compulsory, and struggled with getting myself out of that mindset. I can say I'm free of that now, but I continue to challenge myself to give as much as I can and downplay any reference to percentage.

@ debosky

Subject to your point that maybe garyarnold is forceful about people not using the word "tithes/"tithing" etc ---- BUT the quoted above is exactly garyarnoold's point when he says no one tithes today ---- because no one truly does it according to the Bible whether it is Genesis, Leviticus, Deuteronomy or Nehemiah or anywhere else

And that is why I agree with him that it is better really to stick to the true new Testament teaching which avoids the word "tithes" or "tithing" altogether and instead focuses on giving ---- giving cheerfully

That is why I posted the below earlier:

All this rigmarole really would be unnecessary if Christians and especially the preachers/teachers/"pastors" would really and truly follow or teach according to the simple New Testament message of 2 Corinthians 9:7 interpreted in accordance with Jesus' teaching and emphasis on helping the needy, Paul's stressing of helping poor Christians and general consensus of supporting churches' reasonable* financial costs.

Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

EDIT Addendum: agreeing to the use of "voluntary tithing" for "tithing" that includes anyhow and any place the so-called "tither" chooses (and even using "tither" is a concession on my side (and now presumably on garyarnold's side) but is not truly biblical ---- it is only a compromise.

That is why it is double-standard to keep going at garyarnold for that viewpoint in my view ---- except possibly maybe that he is too forceful about it.



Edited

@ nuclearboy

I'm afraid I completely stand by my interpretation of wordtalk's position.

As for those ones when bring nothing to table ---- na to just ignore.

^^^ I can live with that zikky.







Only I keep hearing Henry Ford: " . . . my car in any colour - as long as it is black!"

^^^The way I read it from the posts on this thread

1. In the case of debosky -- it does seem that "voluntary" truly means voluntary

2. In the case of wordtalk, I am certain that "voluntary" does not truly mean voluntary.

^^^ My brother na de problem be dat oh ---- and also na de problem with the new fraud of "voluntary tithing",

On another note the more this debate on "voluntary tithing" has gone on, the more it has strengthened for me my own personal theory as to the possible ulterior motives for the charade of "voluntary" tithing!

^^^ Thanks for the advice on malice - BUT point a mirror at yourself, look at your snide posts not just on this thread but similarly in the past then ask who is keeping malice?

^^^ Look I don't have time for you --- you didn't notice I simply ignored your posts. In the past, did you not similarly run, avoid, evade etc just like your two champions Joagbaje and wordtalk? They are bigger fry than you --- so go siddon. 

^^^ My friend debosky don disappear oh; enuwe, if you get time make you try provide honest answer to dis my last kweshion.


Meanwhile at Joagbaje who accuses me of shifting grounds, for your enjoyment here is part of a post of mine yesterday from another thread https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-741528.0.html#msg8987158

It says the same thing as I have been saying basically on this forum since 2005 ---- show me wetin shift inside. 

Let me sum up my position first and then demonstrate its difference from viaro's or wordtalk's

1. What the Bible teaches for Christians is voluntary GIVING.

2. Tithing, as an obligation, has been abolished for Christians ---- certainly in the Bible and in the New testament.

3. A Christian can choose voluntarily to do his giving voluntarily in the form of "tithing"

4. I can just about tolerate "tithing" being taught by preachers but only as totally voluntary

5 Now this is key: voluntary tithing means that the tither can choose not to give the tithe in/to church --- but outside the church to widows etc

6. On the other hand, tithing is taught widely and overwhelmingly at least erroneously and quite often fraudulently as obligatory; that I challenge or condemn.


The difference with viaro and wordtalk

I await to see viaro and wordtalk who claim to preach voluntary tithing accept that the "voluntary" tithing can be given anywhere but in/to "church"; e.g. that the "voluntary" tithing can be given to e.g. widows, orphans etc.

It is a very very very significant difference!