₦airaland Forum

wordtalk's reply has proven my point. She is playing games here.

Some words have many meanings. You can't just pick the one to fit what you want it to say.

Anyway, arguing with wordtalk is a waste of time because she is so narrow minded she can't see the truth. Her mind is made up, and she will continue to claim she has proven others wrong when the fact is, she has been proven wrong but can't see it.

I am sure that many on this blog see her manipulation of the Word by using whatever version of the Bible supports her position, and also sees how she manipulates what others say.

Fact is, wordtalk doesn't know the difference between increase, income, assets, and income-producing assets. Those of us with knowledge of these terms DO understand the difference and can easily see that the Biblical tithe was NEVER on income. But wordtalk will continue to "claim" she is right and the rest of us are wrong. One day wordtalk is going to wake up in the morning and say - oh! NOW I get it!

I've shown you the difference, and you could not counter a dot in my rejoinder - posts #118 and #122. So stop summersaulting on the same page and move on.

Wordtalk's answers in all posts still confirms she doesn't know the difference between increase, income, assets, and income-producing assets.

She uses the Greek word for increase to show that it (can) also means income, and then finds versions of the Bible that uses the word income instead of increase. But the KJV didn't choose the word income. They chose the word increase. Increase does not mean income.

Yet wordtalk insists that Abram "tithed" because the KJV uses the word "tithe." But the Greek word translated into tithe also means tenth, and many versions of the Bible chose the word tenth instead of tithe for Abram/Abraham; i.e. the NIV. Therefore, if we can select whatever version of the Bible to make our case, as does wordtalk, then we can choose the NIV to show that Abram did NOT tithe - he gave a tenth.

Wordtalk is playing games with God's Word.

The fact is, there is no scripture to show that God required, commanded, or requested a tithe from anyone before the law. All three tithes commanded by God were on FOOD from crops, and the Levitical tithe also included animals in herds and flocks. God, Himself, NEVER sanctioned, in His Word, anything other than FOOD from crops and animals to be used for His tithe. God NEVER sanctioned, in His Word, anyone other than the Levites to receive His tithe (Levitical tithe), and made very clear what was to be done with the other two tithes.

Now we are under grace, not the law. We are free to give as we please. Calling it "tithing" is INFERRING that it somehow relates to what God called tithing, and it does NOT. Therefore, it is misleading and causes confusion, if not insulting God, Himself.

No one I know is against GIVING. But what would the reason be for calling your giving, "tithing," other than for your ego, or to broadcast what percent you are giving? Now IF there was a word for those giving 5%, or 15%, or 50%, etc., then it would make more sense. Otherwise, it serves no purpose other than to keep the confusion going. It is nothing but another trick of satan.

Some who don't understand his style of slippery argumentation may not easily see how he tends to shift goal posts.

This coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between increase and income. From one who doesn't know the difference between an asset, income, and income producing assets. Yet acts like she knows it all and continues day after day showing her ignorance.

And also from someone who takes NO stand as to what constitutes voluntary tithing. It's up for grabs. Everyone can do as they please.

I think most have discovered wordtalk's game playing here. No need to go into it any deeper.

I already gave you nine. I said there may be more. That leaves another possible 3. Now, maybe you will find more than three in which case my math would be in error. But I can only find the nine I already quoted.

Since you don't even seem to understand the difference between income and increase, nor do you seem to understand what in substance means, I guess I am in for much more criticism. But IF you understood the common terms I use, this would have ended long ago.

I'm not going to continue playing your games.

This is rediculous. But here goes:

Old Testament: Exodus 20:3 (KJV) “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
New Testament: 1 Corinthians 8:4-6

Old Testament: Exodus 20:4-6 (KJV)
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
New Testament: Galatians 5:19-21

Old Testament: Exodus 20:7 (KJV) “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”
New Testament: James 5:12

Old Testament: Exodus 20:8 (KJV) “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.”
New Testament: Nothing comparable.

Old Testament: Exodus 20:12 (KJV) “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.”
New Testament: Colossians 3:20

Old Testament:
Exodus 20:13 (KJV) “Thou shalt not kill.”
New Testament: James 2:11

I am not saying this is a complete list. I am saying these are examples of Old Testament commands repeated in the New Testament. Any other commands repeated are also meant for Christians.

I don't see what is so complicated about this. If you feel there are other Old Testament laws that we are to obey, please list them from the Old Testament, and show me where in the New Testament they are repeated.

Leave it off, garyarnold - the "613 commandments" often argued by anti-tithers is a fallacious non-issue.

It is not a non-issue. There are 613 commandments that have been listed and counted. Maybe there are more. The problem is, who determines which of the commandments are valid today, and which are not. Most people either pick and choose, or they accept that only that repeated in the New Testament is meant for Christians.

Whether you want to accept 613 as the number is moot. The question is, how does one determine which of the Old Testament commands are meant for us today?

Colossians 2:14 (KJV) - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Galatians 5:18 (KJV) - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 3:19 (KJV) - Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Galatians 3:23-25 (KJV)
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:10-14 (KJV)
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

There is nothing in the New Testament comparable to the commandment to remember the Sabbath and keep the Sabbath Holy.

I did not argue that, so that's just a moot point.

That happens to be the whole point.

The more I say, the more you criticize, so I'm not going to continue with this.

@wordtalk,

You went totally off topic, apparently just to criticize what I said.

I said nine of the Ten Commandments were repeated, in substance, in the New Testament. There is nothing in the New Testament comparable to the commandment to remember the Sabbath and keep the Sabbath Holy.

I did not say that sabbath isn't mentioned in the New Testament.

The sabbath is also found in substance in Hebrews 4:9 - "So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God."

Not in the same substance at all. And notice the KJV did not use the word sabbath here so as to not confuse.

sabbatismos
: the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven)

Colossians 2:16 (KJV) Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

In other words, if "over 600 OT laws" are not "repeated", that should leave you no greater than the remaining 13 (or less). Was just wondering what those 13 (or less) "repeated" laws in the NT could be?

Would it help if I gave you scriptures to show that nine of the ten commandments are repeated in substance, all but the Sabbath? Those are the only ones I can now think of that are repeated in the New Testament.

Here is just one to show an example:
Old Testament:
Exodus 20:12 (KJV) “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.”
New Testament:
Colossians 3:20 (KJV) “Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.”

I answered your question in post #110 and you criticized my answer in post #111. Need we go over all of this again?

I'm curious, though: (a) how do YOU determine which of the said 613 commandments are valid today; and (b) how many of the 613 commandments do you think are valid today?

Must I repeat myself?  Haven't you already criticized my answer to that question?  Is it that you want to criticize my answer again?  Is that how you get your pleasure out of life?  Do you just sit at your computer waiting for me to post something so that you can criticize what I write?  Have you nothing better to do?

A contract is not destroyed when it is completed.  It is fulfilled.  Everything has been done that was required.  The Bible does not contradict itself.  If you are right and the law is still valid today, then please explain how you choose which of the 613 Old Testament laws are valid today, and please explain what the following verses mean.  However, if I am right, the following verses speak for themselves.

Hebrews 8:13 (KJV) - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Colossians 2:14 (KJV) - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Galatians 5:18 (KJV) - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 3:19 (KJV) - Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. In other words, until Jesus came and fulfilled the law.

Galatians 3:23-25 (KJV)
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:10-14 (KJV)
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

what does it mean to fulfil a contract or deal?
simple question that I hope you can also provide a simple answer.

To complete. To bring it to an end. It means that all conditions of the contract have been satisfied. There is nothing left to do.

And what did they tithe from - "asset"? WHERE?

A real smart a s s, aren't you!

They tithed crops and animals.  Men tithed ALL three tithes.  No example of any woman tithing anything to anyone.  Period.

And by definition, they tithed from assets whether you accept it or not.  Just because you aren't smart enough to know the difference between assets and income doesn't mean the rest of us have to be dumb also.

Can anyone give even ONE example in the scriptures were any woman/women tithed?

Since during the laws of Moses property went to the oldest son, the women never owned any property. ONLY MEN TITHED.

Those who tithe know what they are doing - let them be. They do not need you and your redundant "asset" manufactured accounting-without-budget to get in their way, especially where you have tried to cheat repeatedly with zero success on your "modern" definition of asset.

Zero success?  There are pastors and ministers in the US, Canada, Australia, and East Africa that I know of teaching the income vs asset argument from my material, and they email and thank me for bringing this out.  Christian accountants have also told me that they to saw that the Biblical tithe was on assets.  Zero success?  Not at all.  YOU are the one rejecting the asset argument.

The more people like you who keep the argument going, the more downloads of my book.  THANK YOU!

Please drop the asset thing.  I am not using it now because it isn't needed.  The fact is, scripture does not use the word TEBUAH for any tithe that you claim you are doing "in the spirit of."  

Which of all the tithes in the Bible do you claim to be following "in the spirit of the law?"  Are you using the festival tithe or the 3-year tithe?  NO.  That only leaves Abram's tithe and the Levitical tithe, neither of which does scripture say anything about assets or TEBUAH.  You won't accept assets for those tithes, and I won't accept income.  Since I don't tithe, I don't need to substantiate assets.  But since you are "giving tithes" and doing so using the "spirit of the law," I'd like to know exactly which laws you are basing your tithing on.  The Levitical tithe is spelled out.  No TEBUAH, just a tenth of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, and every tenth animal.  Forget assets.  Now, show me where that is INCOME in the scriptures?

You have dug yourself a hole you can't get out of now.  You keep insisting that TEBUAH means income, but TEBUAH isn't used for the tithe you are basing your tithing on.  If I am wrong, GIVE THE SCRIPTURE YOU ARE BASING YOUR SPIRIT OF THE LAW ON.

I, personally, use the KJV as the best translation available. That doesn't mean I don't also use others to compare wording. But when the wording changes the meaning, I stick to the KJV. And the word increase does not mean income even if TEBUAH can be translated into either word. But since TEBUAH is not used for the one and only tithe the Israelites paid to God, we don't need to translate TEBUAH for that tithe.

There is no TEBUAH mentioned in Abram's tenth.

There is no TEBUAH mentioned in the Levitical tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33 / Numbers 18).

TEBUAH is only used for the Festival tithe and the 3-year tithe, neither of which would be a principle for giving a tenth of anyone's income to the church.  There is no so-called "spirit of the law" that would even closely resemble giving a tenth to a church.

So the ONE AND ONLY tithe that God said belonged to Him is the one in Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18.  And there is no TEBUAH mentioned.  So you have NO scripture to back up saying the tithe paid by the Israelite farmers had anything to do with income.  The tithe given to the Levites was their income, so even if you want to argue that the Levites tithed on their income, they were tithing on the tithe.

There is no logical way to see some principle or so-call spirit of the law in the Levitical tithe and come up with a tenth of income to the church.

The KJV does NOT uses the word increase in Leviticus 27:30-33 / Numbers 18 where God defines His tithe and gives his instructions for that tithe.

The KJV does not use the word 'asset' because it cannot do so from the hebrew 'tebuah'; but other versions use the word 'income' because that is what the hebrew word 'tebuah' means. The KJV is NOT the only or most accurate translation - only fundamentalist Christians argue hard and long on KJV and get defeated on their weak arguments every single time. Nice. Smiley

You seem to have missed the point. The word TEBUAH is only used for the 3-year tithe, not the tithe that pastor's refer to. The 3-year tithe was kept within thy gates and was used to feed the Levites, widows, orphans, etc. There is no TEBUAH used in any other tithe. Since you are following any so-called "spirit of the law" of the 3-year tithe, then stick to the so-called "spirit of the law" for the tithe you are following, which was NOT on any TEBUAH.

If you feel that there is a version of the Bible more accurate than the KJV, then you should use it consistently. If you change versions depending on the topic, you are merely shopping for a version to back your own position.

The SDA use the KJV for everything EXCEPT tithing. They choose another version to support their own teaching, but won't let you use that version for any other topic. That is what you do, also.

wordtalk = pick and choose

Luke 18:12
I fast twice a week, and I give a tenth of my entire income.

Do you not know that they were bragging about what they did BEYOND the law? There was no law to fast twice a week or to give a tenth of their entire income. They were trying to show their superiority, just like some so-called tithers do today.

Common sense - when the scriptures were translated into English, the words were translated into words that people would understand.

Again, the KJV uses increase, and that is only for the three-year tithe.

The KJV does NOT uses the word increase in Leviticus 27:30-33 / Numbers 18 where God defines His tithe and gives his instructions for that tithe. It is the Levitical tithe that pastor's use to pattern their teaching of tithing today, NOT the festival tithe or the three-year tithe.

The Holy Bible, King James Version


Leviticus 27:30 (KJV)
30And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD.
Leviticus 27:31 (KJV)
31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
Leviticus 27:32 (KJV)
32And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD.
Leviticus 27:33 (KJV)
33He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

Says nothing about increase (or income) in the above scriptures. You only find the word increase in connection with the three-year tithe.

However, the vast majority of Bible scholars and Christians reject all these objections as being based on faulty facts and reasoning, and they do not consider the KJV to be more accurate or more sacred than other translations.

And that same source also says:
- most aspects of the Old Testament Law do not apply to Christians.
- Christians still look to the Old Testament scripture for moral and spiritual guidance (2 Timothy 3:16-17). But when there seems to be a conflict between Old Testament laws and New Testament principles, we must follow the New Testament because it represents the most recent and most perfect revelation from God (Hebrews 8:13, 2 Corinthians 3:1-18, Galatians 2:15-20).
- The tithing rules in the Bible were based on the religious and social system of ancient Israel and on an agricultural economy. Modern day questions about what percentage we should give and whether it should be computed on gross income, net income or wealth are not answered in the Bible. Nor does the Bible tell us how much of our giving should go to the Church and how much to help the needy. In today's world, we must pray and listen to our consciences when deciding how much to give and to which organizations or individuals.

Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible, Numbers 18:20-32
When the Levites had thus paid the tenth of their income,

Since the Levites received the tithe as compensation for the work they performed, when they tithed, it was actually from their income.  HOWEVER,
Numbers 18:27 (KJV)  “And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress.”

Therefore, Numbers 18:27 means that it will not be treated as from their income (since income was not tithable) but rather from their assets.  That's the meaning in plain English.

Now shut up for a change.  I am sick of your broken record and crap.

You must be an .

Please say it!

I tried, but this blog won't print it. So I will try it this way. You are an I D I O T.

And like I said, IF increase meant income under God's tithing commands, the definition of income has changed. Nowhere in the KJV does it associate the word income or revenue with wages or interest.

Right, you have no scripture.

Again, it is a waste of time debating with someone who doesn't have the knowledge to understand the difference between income and increase.

Something must be wrong with you.

You aren't tithing per definitions of thousands of years ago.  You are tithing using today's definition of gross income, or income, etc.

IF increase meant income in the tithing laws, then that income has NOTHING to do with what we call income today.  Are you that dense?  You actually keep arguing yourself into a hole.

Please show us what is wrong with the citation from Wikipedia.

You are unable to show me what is right with the citation. Give me SCRIPTURE that says spirit of the law. Can you give it or not? If you can't, then just shut up.