₦airaland Forum

Dude, look up the verses on tithes again: Israel was to tithed from their 'tebuah' - that is INCOME in the form of produce.

Only someone ignorant of what income means would make such a foolish statement.

The KJV is the only version of the Bible recognized by most all scholars to be the most accurate translation, and it says INCREASE, not income.

You pick and choose which version of the Bible you are going to use the same as you pick and choose which Old Testament laws you will follow "in spirit."  What a joke.  You are in the same league as the false teachers.

You have given NO scripture that uses "spirit of the Law."  Same old broken record.

You invent all this crap you keep spreading around.

Please give some scripture to back up that there is such as thing as "spirit of the Law."

I believe that only that part of the Old Testament law that is repeated in the New Testament are the parts we are to follow.  Nine of the ten commandments are repeated in the New Testament.  Over 600 OT laws are not, and there is no "spirit of the Law" that I can find in scripture.  That is purely man-invented crap to convince people to tithe.

Since you are constantly badgering me to quote scripture, all I'm asking is that you do the same.

Christians under the New Testament derive their doctrines from the Old Testament - not by arguing the letter of the Law, but by seeking the spirit of the Law.

One Old Testament law was to KILL (stone to death) disobedient children. Hummm. Wonder how we can seek the spirit of that law.

Instead of using Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, how about giving such scripture?

I can't believe someone would actually use Wikipedia and a Biblical reference.

@God2man,

Are YOU under the Old Testament laws, OR are you a Christian, under the New Testament?

Matthew 5:17-18 states Christ came to fulfill the law and not abolish it.

This is where some education in law is useful. What does fulfill mean? What does abolish mean?

Let me give an example. A legal contract is enforceable under the law. Let’s say you hire a contractor to build a swimming pool in your back yard. Once the contractor has completed the job, and everything in that contract has been completed, the contract has been fulfilled. The contractor’s job is to fulfill the contract, not abolish it. He fulfills it by completing the terms, bringing it to an end.

Consider:

Hebrews 8:13 (KJV) - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Colossians 2:14 (KJV) - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Galatians 5:18 (KJV) - But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Galatians 3:19 (KJV) - Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. In other words, until Jesus came and fulfilled the law.

Galatians 3:23-25 (KJV)
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 3:10-14 (KJV)
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Furthermore, are you following any one of the three tithing laws commanded by God?

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe: to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.
Purpose of this tithe: “that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always”

THIRD TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.
Purpose of this tithe: to feed the poor.

The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it. No one else tithed. Wage earners did not tithe. Jesus did not tithe as a carpenter. Paul did not tithe as a tent maker. Peter did not tithe as a fisherman.

YOU are not following any one of the three tithing laws commanded by God. Rather, you are following the false teaching of man.

The following shows how the word asset(s) is widely used to describe certain items:

The Nelson Study Bible
Leviticus 25:32
The Levites’ houses, too, were protected under the basic law of redemption and Jubilee (vv. 25–28) because their homes were their only substantial assets.

1 Chronicles 27:31
Since there was no essential difference between the king and his state, the property of the king consisted of the assets of the nation.

Disciples Study Bible
DEUTERONOMY 18:5
Election, Responsibility—The chosen of God are required to support the
elected priests, since priests are without land and related material assets.
Stewardship is a basic responsibility to God, who is Lord of all creation and the
Source of all blessings.

The Holy Bible, International Standard Version
Luke 16:1 (ISVNT)
1Now Jesus was saying to the disciples, “A rich man had a manager who was accused of wasting his assets.

From “The Four-Fold Gospel” – Copyright 1914:
The following are classified as assets:
Sheep
Oxen
Cattle
Asses
Camels

From “Associates of Spiritual Knowledge”:
Looking at this matter of the tenth animal being tithed from our present monetary point of view, a rancher could have many thousands of dollars invested in nine cattle, but unless he had a tenth he was not required to tithe a penny of his assets.

From Jubilee USA:
The New Testament refers to lending on interest only in the context of a parable, about a man entrusting his assets to his servants (Matthew 25:27; Luke 19:23).

From WHAT KIND OF “CAPTIVITY?” by Steven M. Collins
It is easy to see how the ancient Israelites gradually took on too much debt, and the Mesopotamian moneylenders in the sun-god temples legally foreclosed on the assets and properties of the Israelites in the Promised Land, resulting in a situation where Israelites were reduced to being serfs serving foreigners on the Israelites’ former lands.

I previously gave Biblical references where the word revenue is used.

I have better things to do than waste my time with those who must be playing games. Can't believe people can be this dumb!

however you are yet to show how this whole arguments relates to what you figured out.

It was a NO-BRAINER. Since I knew what an asset is, and what income is, it was easy to "figure out" that the crops and animals are assets.

This is just too easy. Problem is, I am trying to communicate with those who have no knowledge of accounting terms including the ones they use; i.e. income.

WHERE in Scripture did you figure out that 'asset' is found?

Can someone actually be that dumb?

you initially claimed the use of the word 'asset' in this context was not your making, that pastors on youtube use it, so in other words, you got it from there, now you say you have figured it out before then.


I did no such thing.  I have been teaching the asset interpretation for years.  I merely said that I didn't "invent" the word asset.  I got it from my accounting classes, not any pastor.

The misquotes and misinformation just keeps on coming!

So you basically 'lifted' the word for what a 'pastor' said and you have been running with it like your life depends on it?
Is that not what you have been preaching against?

More lies.  More misquotes.

Before I ever heard or read anywhere that the tithe was on assets, I figured that out on my own when I read the scriptures.  My whole career depended on me knowing the difference between assets and income.  I learned the difference in high school.

The first time I heard a pastor say you tithe on your gross income, I felt that the pastor probably didn't even know the proper definition of gross income.  I have asked several pastors to explain gross income to me, and not even one of them know the correct meaning.  Pastors use accounting terms but don't understand what they mean.

However thanks for admitting your use of the word 'asset' was your own making,

My making? There are pastors who teach that the Biblical tithe was on ASSETS. I've seem it on youtube.

I didn't make up the word asset(s).

Also, definitions of words change over the years, so for someone to say that the Hebrew word for increase also means income can be in error when you apply TODAY'S definition of income.

It's really so simple, but there will always be those who want to complicate things. And there are those who have such big egos that to say they tithe just plain makes them feel so good!

Game playing is what is going on in this blog.

You are right, Pastor Kun. It is really a waste of time to discuss anything with wordtalk. The devil has put him/her here to cause havoc and confusion. But those who really have the Spirit will see through it all.

Please be specific - do people tithe services? Do they tithe merchandise? If you're saying that your meaning of income includes all those, does that mean you agree that tithes included money in Scripture? If not, why do you include it as income in this case?

Is wordtalk totally ignorant?  Does he/she not understand the difference between money as an asset and money earned as income?  Does he/she not understand the difference between merchandise as an asset and merchandise as income?

Geez!  The more he/she speak the more he/she shows his/her ignorance.

THE WORD ASSET IS NOT IN THE BIBLE.  I ALSO CAN'T FIND THE WORD ASSET IN THE HEBREW DICTIONARY.  THE WORD MAY NOT HAVE EXISTED AT THAT TIME.  CAN'T WORDTALK GET IT THROUGH HIS/HER HEAD THAT I AM USING ASSET(S) AS A DESCRIPTION?  IS HE/SHE REALLY THAT DENSE OR IS HE/SHE PLAYING GAMES HERE?

wordtalk is either playing games here, really ignorant,  or just plan evil.

I wonder how you expect others to take a stand with you when you keep shifting,

I have not shifted. I will no longer dialogue with wordtalk on this blog. That doesn't mean I won't explain to others how I believe wordtalk is being dishonest and purposely, in my opinion, injecting confusion and lies by constantly misquoting what others say.

wordtalk has shown the world that he/she has absolutely no accounting background but continues to define what the accounting term income means.

Those who can see through lies and dishonest debating will see through this type of manipulation. However, most church goers seem to be influenced by whatever they are told at church and fail to do their own in-dept Bible study.

It all depends on your meaning and understanding of income and revenue. If you think of income and revenue only in terms of cash and monetary exchanges as is used in contemporary times, you're narrowing the meanings of those terms while trying to excuse the meaning of 'asset'. It then remains for you to please find a verse - any verse - in the KJV that shows the hebrew word for 'asset'.

Isn't it amazing how wordtalk ignores all my talk about income - that it can be in ANY form.  Money, services, or merchandise.  I have said over and over again that the Israelite farmers had income from the sale AND/OR barter-exchange of the crops and animals.

Isn't it odd that wordtalk can't seem to understand that I am using the term asset as a description of the items.  I don't need to use the word asset at all.  The Levitical tithe was a tenth of the crops and every tenth animal, NOT a tenth of what was received from the sale and/or barter-exchange of the crops and animals.

Wordtalk obviously has an agenda other than accuracy and truth.

I believe I have proven my position by DEFINITION, not interpretation.  Wordtalk is so narrow minded that he/she can't see the difference between an increase in the seed and an income from a sale.

Wordtalk obviously thinks he/she is smarter than those who translated the Word into the KJV of the Holy Bible.

The words revenue, profit, and gain are all used in the KJV but NEVER in conjunction with the tithe.

The word vegetable is also not in the KJV.  Doesn't mean we can't describe some of the herbs as vegetables.

The following is quoted from
http://carm.org/christianity/christian-doctrine/word-trinity-not-bible

, there are many biblical concepts that people believe in that don't have a specific word describing them used in the Bible.  For example, the word "bible" is not found in the Bible, but we use it anyway to describe the Bible.  Likewise, "omniscience" which means "all-knowing," "omnipotence" which means "all-powerful," and "omnipresence" which means "present everywhere," are words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God.  We don't have to see a specific word in the Bible in order for the concept it describes to be true.

Following are other words that the Bible does not use but the concepts are mentioned:

        Atheism is the teaching that there is no God.  "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'" (Psalm 14:1).
        Divinity which means divine quality or godlike character.  Yet, we speak of the godlike quality of the Lord God. See Psalm 139.
        Incarnation which means the word (God) who became flesh.  Yet, this is definitely taught in the Bible (John 1:1,14).
        Monotheism is the teaching that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:.
        Rapture is the teaching that the Christians who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18).

The fact that the word asset doesn't appear in the Bible doesn't mean the concept or description doesn't appear in the Bible.

The following illustrates how the KJV uses the same word translated as increase and also revenue.  Notice the context of each verse and you will see that increase in the tithing verses has nothing to do with revenue (income).

H8393 TEBUAH (increase, revenue)

Genesis 47:24 (KJV)
24And it shall come to pass in the increase, that ye shall give the fifth part unto Pharaoh, and four parts shall be your own, for seed of the field, and for your food, and for them of your households, and for food for your little ones.

Leviticus 19:25 (KJV)
25And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 25:7 (KJV)
7And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.

Leviticus 25:12 (KJV)
12For it is the jubilee; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field.

Leviticus 25:20 (KJV)
20And if ye shall say, What shall we eat the seventh year? behold, we shall not sow, nor gather in our increase:

Deuteronomy 14:22 (KJV)
22Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

Deuteronomy 14:28 (KJV)
28At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:

2 Chronicles 31:5 (KJV)
5And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field; and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly.

2 Chronicles 32:28 (KJV)
28Storehouses also for the increase of corn, and wine, and oil; and stalls for all manner of beasts, and cotes for flocks.

NOTE:  In the following verse, which is talking about gold and silver (money), the same word is translated as REVENUE.
Proverbs 8:19 (KJV)
19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

NOTE:  Notice also in this verse the same word is translated as REVENUES.
Proverbs 16:8 (KJV)
8Better is a little with righteousness than great revenues without right.

This should make it perfectly clear to anyone studying this topic in depth that increase does not mean revenue, or gain, or profit, or income where the KJV uses the word increase, in the verses I have shown.  The KJV, unlike some other translations, was careful to choose the proper translation of the Greek word in each of those verses.  You can't exchanged increase for revenue or revenue for increase without distorting the true meaning.

Yes. But some people believe the levitical tithe allowed for cash. So what am trying to say here (without having to argue that tithe was strictly agricultural produce), is when (& if) the option to buy back is exercised, actual cash outflow does not equate to 10% of the tithers produce.

But it must be emphasized that a person would have to have the tenth of the crops to come up with the value before they could add the extra fifth. No one could just come up with money for the tithe. They couldn't sell the crops and then pay a tenth from the income, profit, or gain they received. For those who believe the Levitical tithe allowed cash to be tithed, prove it with scripture.

@Zikkyy,

If you are going to put the Levitical tithe in percentages, it can range from 0% to 10% maximum.

The tithe was a tenth of the crops.  That tithe could be bought back, or redeemed, for a 20% (one fifth) penalty.  The TITHE was still the tenth of the crops, not the money.

But your point that the Levitical tithe commanded by God could be less than 10% is absolutely true.  Example:  a herdsman had 19 new born animals in herds and flocks for the year.  ONE of those animals would be the tithe which = 5.26%.  For those who say you can't give 1.9 animals, you are wrong.  The animal could be cut up then the same as they are now at the meat market.

IF the crops and animals were INCOME, then what do you call the proceeds when the Israelites SOLD and/or barter exchanged their crops and animals? MORE INCOME?

Yes.

wordtalk needs to get a refund for whatever class in accounting he/she took.

I don't feel my teaching or position is at all threatened. So far today, my free book has been downloaded 26 times. I get email often from pastors, other ministers, Bible-study students, etc. who thank me for my truthful and accurate teaching. I need no endorsement from such losers as wordtalk.

wordtalk must believe that the Israelite farmers tithed on their original crops and animals, and then again tithed on the proceeds they got when they sold the crops and animals. Now that does create a problem. Since every tenth animal had to be set aside for the tithe, only the ones left could be sold, so now I guess wordtalk thinks that every tenth animal plus a tenth of the proceeds of the sale are the tithe. wordtalk has no common sense.

wordtalk isn't even capable of taking a solid position on voluntary tithing. Just leaves it up to everyone to decide for themselves. Reminds me of someone who wants no one to tell them what to do, and he/she will tell no one what to do. Not much of a teacher. In fact, not a teacher at all.

PLEASE, those following this blog, take the time to study what has been said, and then compare it with scripture. TAKE A STAND. God lets us make our own choices, but we will be held accountable for them. In order to be a good steward, you must know what is being done with the money you give to the church. Don't just give it and say it is out of your hands. That is being a poor steward.

Try to be a good steward of 100% of what God gives to you. Don't fall for false religious doctrines. Give from the heart with NO expectation of getting anything back. IF you expect something back, it doesn't even meet the definition of a gift.

IF the crops and animals were NOT assets, just what were they, wordtalk? Please tell me.

INCOME. In hebrew, tebuah (תּבוּאה).

Have to reply to that wrong answer.

IF the crops and animals were INCOME, then what do you call the proceeds when the Israelites SOLD and/or barter exchanged their crops and animals? MORE INCOME?

You show a total lack of understanding of what income is.

GOOD BYE.

I'm done with you wordtalk. You think you know more than those who translated to the KJV. THEY didn't select the word INCOME, but rather INCREASE, and only in Deut., NOT in Leviticus 27:30-33 where God defined His tithe as crops and animals.

You lack knowledge and I can no longer debate with a know-it-all who actually has shown that he/she knows no where near what he/she thinks he/she knows.

I don't hide behind a name. You change yours frequently, and use different names on different blogs. You hide. I am out in the open.

You remind me of the Pharisees. We will NEVER agree. I honestly believe the devil has taken over your thinking process. May God help you.

I hope those reading this blog can see through your dishonest double standards. May God help you.

I see you have avoided commenting on post #25.

The crops and animals were NOT assets - unless you are begging to cheat by using dribbling all this under a contemporary usage (aka, your "man-made-definition".

And YOU, wordtalk, are using a man-made definition of tithing. Just look in a modern-day dictionary for the definition of tithe and then compare it with what you teach. Look in a modern-day dictionary for the definition of the word income and compare it to what you teach.

IF the crops and animals were NOT assets, just what were they, wordtalk? Please tell me.

Now please sir, where in any of those versions do you find ASSET?

The word asset is not in any version that I have checked, but neither does many descriptive words we use appear in any version of the Bible.

You use versions of the Bible to show that income was tithed on, but use version not recognized by any Bible scholar.

Sorry, the word "asset" is too broad a term to be used as descriptive for their tithes UNLESS you're begging us to allow you cheat along these lines. Is that not why neither your KJV nor any of those cited versions use the word "asset"? Besides, if INCOME does not serve the same purpose because you're having nightmares of tithes from money, then it might interest you to know that the word "asset" from its etymology involves and includes MONEY. Don't even try to cheat further by dribbling in some "man-made-definition" here to deny the fact.

I don't think you even have a clue as to what I am saying or you wouldn't have answered with the above.  Of course money is an asset.  Did I say that ALL assets were tithable?  I merely said that crops and animals ARE assets, BY DEFINITION.  If you don't agree, you need to take another accounting class.

They were not assets - otherwise you would have found the verse in your KJV that uses that word expressly!

Then Abraham was not human - otherwise you would have found a verse in the KJV that uses that word expressly!

@wordtalk,

The word wage(s) is used 17 times in the KJV, but NEVER used in reference to the tithe.

I find the word GAIN used with MONEY (or gold, silver) several times in the KJV, but NEVER is GAIN used with the tithe.

Judges 5:19 (KJV)
19The kings came and fought, then fought the kings of Canaan in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo; they took no gain of money.

Matthew 25:20 (KJV)
20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

There are many more examples. Tithing was never on income or GAIN.

@wordtalk,

The word MONEY does appear in the KJV, many times.  Yet the ONLY times it is used in reference to the tithe is for REDEEMING the tithe and for selling the tithe for money and taking the money and then buy back the food with that money.  With all the times money is mentioned in the KJV, it is NEVER mentioned AS the tithe.

@wordtalk,

Please stop this nonsense! There's no way you can dribble the word "income" into ANY VERSE of the KJV! Period. You've been peddling that grub for eons and it's just about time you retired it.

@wordtalk,

The word human does not appear in the KJV of the Bible.  Does that mean that Jesus was not on this earth in human form?  Was Abraham human?

The word assets is a description of the items tithed.  Just like the word income describes what you get when you work for wages.  They are descriptive words.


I use the word ASSETS to DESCRIBE what the crops and animals were.  They were NOT income.  They were assets.  Plain and simple.  Not complicated except for those who wear blinders.

I read my bible. Read lev 27: 30-32.

VERY CLEAR. The tithe is on crops and animals which happen to be assets, not income.