₦airaland Forum

@Enigma,

If wordtalk agrees that giving a tenth to the poor is considered tithing, it goes against what he thinks should be done with the tithe.

If wordtalk disagrees that giving a tenth to the poor is considered tithing, then he is being legalistic.

He will never answer your question because he loses no matter what his answer.

Wordtalk isn't going to answer your question, Enigma.

Fact is, I don't call any giving today "tithing." The question to YOU, Wordtalk, is would YOU call it tithing if one gave a tenth of their income to the poor? YOU are the one who is using the term tithing when giving a tenth of your income in the church. WE don't call giving a tenth of our income in/to the church tithing to begin with.

Since there was NO tithing in the Bible that went to a church, but there WAS a tithe that went to the widows, orphans, stranger, etc., wordtalk has no basis to say that the tithe SHOULD go to the church other than that is wordtalk's own personal preference.

Again, wordtalk takes what I say out of context.

When I quote the dictionary definition of tithe, I was comparing it to the Biblical tithe - that they had nothing in common other than tenth.  The modern-day dictionary doesn't define tithe as tenth.  It goes on to include what the tenth is on, and where the tenth is given.

Now look at Leviticus 27:30-33.  It also includes what the tenth is on.

@wordtalk said, "I believe that tithing should be given in Church"

American Heritage Dictionary:
should (sh‹d) aux.v. Past tense of shall. 1. Used to express obligation or duty:

Webster's Dictionary:
Syn.:  must

Wordtalk is saying what should be done, or what shall be done, as an OBLIGATION or DUTY.

Sounds a little legalistic to me.

The Biblical definition (God's definition) of tithe is NOT the same as the Hebrew definition of tithe.

The definition of tithe is tenth.

God's definition of His tithe is in Leviticus 27:30-33, and the application is in Numbers 18. You don't seem to comprehend the difference between the Hebrew definition and God's definition, which I also call the Biblical definition.

When you say you aren't paying tithes but rather giving tithes, you infer that you are now voluntarily doing what was mandatory under the Mosaic law, and you are not. You are merely giving a tenth of something, (in your case, your income), and it makes you feel good to call it tithing so that it relates to the same word used in the Bible. But you are comparing apples to oranges.

Wordtalk has lowered himself to accept the definition and rules of the tithe to that of those pastors who teach tithing as mandatory, but wordtalk preaches that it is voluntary. Still, wordtalk is using THEIR definition of tithing, NOT God's definition. Not very Godly in my opinion.

Your opinion remains the same crap all through. I nowhere favoured any hint of mandatory tithing, and your repeating that insinuation is bordering on a deliberate lie.

How is that bordering on a deliberate lie? I nowhere said that you preach or favor mandatory tithing. I said you have taken the DEFINITION of tithing from those who started the whole MANDATORY TITHING scam during the late 1800s. Their definition is the definition you use. You don't use ANY Biblical definition.

You are wrongfully stuck that the Biblical definition of tithe is a tenth. That was the definition BEFORE God gave HIS definition.

If you are going to ignore God's application of His tithe, then you leave the door open to calling ANY tenth a tithe, and the giving of ANY tenth to anyone, tithing.

Since tithe simply means tenth, giving any tenth should qualify as a voluntary tithe.

That's plain silly talk from you - and you kknow it! Readers only have to look at your profile to know that you don't preach anything close to VOLUNTARY TITHE, so please don't try to talk your crap here!


Of course I don't preach anything close to a voluntary tithe because a voluntary tithe with no definite Biblical definition as to what constitutes the tithe is meaningless.

Problem is, wordtalk, you want to make the definition and set the rules.  You want to say that if one gives a tenth of their income to the church they are a tither, but if I give a tenth of what is in my pocket and say that I am a tither I am full of crap.   YOU want to set the rules.

Wordtalk has lowered himself to accept the definition and rules of the tithe to that of those pastors who teach tithing as mandatory, but wordtalk preaches that it is voluntary.  Still, wordtalk is using THEIR definition of tithing, NOT God's definition.  Not very Godly in my opinion.

Since God gave us His definition and His instructions, I am not going to insult God by changing His definition and instructions and then call it tithing.

@Enigma,

Wordtalk is not going to answer your specific question because wordtalk is a coward when it comes to answering specific questions.

Since tithe simply means tenth, giving any tenth should qualify as a voluntary tithe. Therefore, if you take ten dollars to church, and you give one dollar, you have tithed; thus, you are a tither. If you give a tenth of anything to anyone, you are a tither.

Since wordtalk doesn't accept God's definition for His tithe as being binding now that we are under grace, there is no longer a definition for tithe other than tenth. Wordtalk has lowered himself to accept what pastors teach as the tithe today, whether mandatory or voluntary.

To answer wordtalks questions to me, "What does the Hebrew word 'TEBUAH' mean to you?"

It depends on its usage.  I would have to see the context of the subject before I could tell you what tebuah meant in a particular sentence.

It's like asking what does the word "increase" mean to you.  Well, let's look at Webster's Dictionary:

#1 - to make greater, as in number, size, strength, or quality; augment; add to: to increase taxes.

But now let's look at definition #9:  produce of the earth.

So increase can mean greater in size, but can also mean produce of the earth.

Whenever we find the word "increase" in the Bible, when referring to the tithe, it always means produce of the earth if kept in context.  Same in Proverbs 9 - increase means produce of the earth.

Definition #10:  10. product; profit; interest.

Nowhere does it say "income."  Definition #10, however, would be the closest to income, but although profit is income, wages are not profit.

If you want to use a version of the Bible for children, you will find the word income.

Income and increase do NOT mean the same thing.

Deuteronomy 14:22 (KJV)  Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

Deuteronomy 14:22 (RSV)  You shall tithe all the yield of your seed, which comes forth from the field year by year.

Deuteronomy 14:22 (NASB)  You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year.

Proverbs 3:9 (KJV)  Honour the LORD with thy substance, and with the firstfruits of all thine increase:

Proverbs 3:9 (RSV)  Honor the LORD with your substance and with the first fruits of all your produce;

Proverbs 3:9 (NASB)  Honor the LORD from your wealth And from the first of all your produce;

And if you take the time to read Proverbs 3:10, you will plainly see it is talking about FOOD, not someone's income or money.

TEBUAH - can mean several things including produce, increase, and income.

HOWEVER, when the KJV was translated, they chose INCREASE, not income.  Although all income can be classified as increase, not all increase is income.  Had the KJV used the word "income" instead of increase, I would have no argument.

Wordtalk criticizes John MacArthur for saying the Biblical tithe was a tax because the Bible doesn't call it a tax.

Wordtalk has criticized me for saying the Biblical tithe was "like" a tax because the Bible doesn't call it a tax.

Then Wordtalk says there are examples in the Bible of tithing on income, yet the Bible doesn't use the word income.

Talk about being inconsistent!

Wordtalk seems to think that tithe means 10%.  It doesn't.  It means tenth.  In other words, as you count the items, every tenth one is the tithe.  If there are eleven, the tenth one is the tithe.  That is not an approximation.  It is the tithe.

I thought that wordtalk had taken a class in accounting, but now he uses an example of income that is not correct.

The farmers had income when they sold or barter exchanged the crops. They did not tithe on that income. They tithed on the assets.

Wordtalk hasn't yet learned how to pick out the correct definition of a word. Many words have many meanings. You must pick out the correct meaning.

Jacob did not make a vow to tithe on his income. Again, wordtalk is making assumptions.

There is no example of tithing on income anywhere in the Bible.

NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE pays the Biblical tithe today.

THE FIRST TITHE
Leviticus 27:30-33 defines this tithe as a tenth of crops and animals in herds and flocks.
Numbers 18 gives the ordinances, or instructions, for this tithe, and commands this tithe be taken to the Levites.
Purpose of this tithe: to support the Levitical Priesthood.

SECOND TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:22-27: aka The Festival Tithe - a tenth of crops, plus add to that the firstborn animals, and take for the yearly feast.
Purpose of this tithe: “that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always”

THIRD TITHE
Deuteronomy 14:28-29: aka The Three-Year Tithe aka The Poor Tithe - a tenth of crops, kept at home, and invite the Levites, widows, orphans, stranger to eat.
Purpose of this tithe: to feed the poor.

Now, tell me. Which of the above three tithes commanded by God does anyone follow today?

The ONLY people in the Old Testament that were commanded to tithe were those who INHERITED THE PROMISED LAND WITH EVERYTHING ON IT. They got the land, house, animals, crops, etc. ALL FREE AND CLEAR. No mortgage payment or rent to pay. And THEY were commanded to tithe on the crops and animals and take it to the Levites who INHERITED the tithe INSTEAD OF the promised land with everything on it. No one else tithed. Wage earners did not tithe. Jesus did not tithe as a carpenter. Paul did not tithe as a tent maker. Peter did not tithe as a fisherman.

Tithing today is for sissies. The New Testament teaches generous, sacrificial giving, from the heart, according to our means. For some, $1 might be a sacrifice, while for others, even giving 50% of their income might not induce a sacrifice. In the Old Testament, ONLY the farmers tithed, and it was equal percentage (a tenth). The New Testament teaches the principle of equal sacrifice instead of equal percentage. Equal sacrifice is much harder to achieve, if not impossible, than giving ten percent.

I gave myself to the Lord. I serve the Lord. I don't need to advertise a service that I give FREE. I only give finance classes IN PERSON, not on the internet. And charge NOTHING.

Now it's time for wordtalk to say since you charge nothing, people are getting exactly what they pay for. Kind of remark wordtalk would make.

Maybe pastors and ministers see something in my finance teaching that wordtalk doesn't.  In fact, wordtalk has never taken a finance class from me but is fast to criticize my teaching.

A pastor at a Seventh-day Adventist church asked me to give a class in finances to a Bible Study group, which I did.  They liked it and complimented me on it.

A pastor at a Full Gospel Baptist Church asked me to give a class in finances, TWICE, to two different groups on a Saturday.  Most of the students were young ministers.  They liked it so much they asked the pastor if I could give more classes on finances to the whole church.

A pastor at a Church of God, after I had left that church, phoned me and asked if I would meet with a couple having financial problems to give them some finance wisdom.

The pastor at the Full Gospel Baptist Church invited me to join their team of ministers (since I am an ordained minister) but I refused because of our differences in interpretation of the tithe.

My financial advice saved many from losing their homes during the real estate meltdown.  Many months before the meltdown started, I was warning people that it was going to happen.  Those who followed my advice still own their homes.

So whether wordtalk thinks I know what I am doing or not, those who personally know me trust my knowledge and advice.

I am done talking about finances here.  We are off topic.

There wordtalk goes talking about something he knows so little about.

Just because someone says that "Budgeting lies at the foundation of every financial plan" doesn't make it right anymore than if I quote from an article that says "No one can tithe today."

Investopedia explains Financial Plan
While there is no specific template for a financial plan, most licensed professionals will include knowledge and considerations of the client's future life goals, future wealth transfer plans and future expense levels. Extrapolated asset values will determine whether the client has sufficient funds to meet future needs.

A good financial plan can alert an investor to changes that must be made to ensure a smooth transition through life's financial phases, such as decreasing spending or changing asset allocation. Financial plans should also be fluid, with occasional updates when financial changes occur

I DON'T SEE THE WORD BUDGET USED, DO YOU?

I think wordtalk needs to look up the word budget in the dictionary.  I don't budget.  Period.  Yet I am very successful financially.

I don't budget x number of dollars for food for the month, or x number of dollars for utilities for the month, etc. etc. etc.  That would be a budget.  The US government has a budget, and look at the mess they are in.  I am not saying that governments don't need a budget.  I am saying individuals don't need a budget.  I used to use budgets until I realized a better way.

@Snowwy,

Luke 14:28-32 has NOTHING to do with household budgets. Of course when you are going to build a house, church, or do any major addition or upgrade, you workout a cost analysis and have to have a way to pay for it. But you don't need a budget to pay the cost.

The fact that I don't budget doesn't mean I don't keep track of all my expenses as well as my income. The fact that I don't budget doesn't mean that I don't occasionally do an analysis of where my money is going.

I have a problem keeping my weight down where I am comfortable with it. Unfortunately, I use diets to lose weight. I haven't reached the point where I have been able to discipline myself when it comes to eating. I am taking the easy way out.

I don't have a problem with my finances. I don't need any budget because I have learned how to discipline myself when it comes to finances. I think smart rather than think budget. I teach the thinking process one needs to go through rather than developing budgets.

Budgets don't always expose the problem when someone is having financial problems. I get to the problem, if there is one, and use a thinking process to solve the problem. I teach good financial habits. Budgets can have a major flaw of hiding the problem.

The complications arise when you magically imagine that budgeting is not compatible with tithing.

Budgeting is very compatible with giving a tenth.  VERY compatible.  The tenth would be a part of the budget.  No thinking required.  A robot can do it.

As I said, I teach neither tithing nor budgeting.

You don't need a budget when you learn how to make intelligent financial decisions.

Some, in fact most financial teachers prefer to teach budgeting because it's the easiest to understand and use, and many financial teachers know of no other way.  But like diets, I have found that budgets can have too many weak spots.  It's like the difference between using a calculator to work out a problem and using your brain to logically think through the process to come up with the answer.  The calculator is faster, but the thinking process educates.  By developing the thinking process rather than using budgets, a person learns how to arrive at smart financial decisions.  Makes a budget sort of like baby steps, or for the beginner, or for those who prefer not to educate themselves to make better financial decisions.  Budgets are the easy way out, and can actually work sometimes.

This is funny.  wordtalk quotes from an article called Budgeting 101.  Now he needs to quote my MY website Tithing 101 !!!!!

Most finance teachers teach budgeting.  I don't.  I never said budgets were not a part of finances.

My approach to finances takes a much more mature approach.  My method works.  I am not here to give a class in finances on this blog.

It makes sense that someone who believes that tithing today is good would also think budgets are good.  It simple to use a tenth, and to follow a budget.  It's more complicated and involved to really understand what you are doing.

Everyone, please notice how wordtalk responds to me.

Wordtalk admits that he is not a finance teacher yet he tells me that "One doesn't have to be an accountant to know that budgeting is involved in finances."

And what I said is that I don't teach budgeting.

No matter what I say, wordtalk is going to come back and say something to try and make him look smarter than me, and to make me look like I am a dummy.  That's wordtalks character. He has been doing this for many months on many different blogs where he uses different names.

Wordtalk NEVER admits he is wrong.  On one blog he argued a simple math problem and kept telling me I was wrong.  Over and over and over and over again.  It went on for quite a while.  Either someone showed wordtalk that his answer was wrong and mine was right, or he finally figured it out.  Did he admit he had made an error?  I mean, we are all human.  No, once he got the right answer he said he was just giving me a hard time!  That's his character.  He has to always be right.

Notice how when you criticize anything he has said, he ALWAYS comes back with justification.

Just let it go, people.  Pray for him.

Teaching on finance will involve a budget - there's no pretending about that.

And just what are your credentials to teach finances?

Being a retired accountant, state government tax auditor (where most of my career was that of teaching), tax preparer, and teacher at a Christian school, my whole education, career, and life has been dealing with finances.  It was only because of my extensive education, knowledge, and experience that I was able to become a Certified Money & Finance Minister.  The certification was not just given to me either.  And, I don't believe that certification is even being given anymore.

I have also been recognized and honored by the United States Military for setting up a small finance system for them in Vietnam.

I view budgets as the "baby steps" until one matures to a financially responsible steward.  Many never get past the "baby steps" because they lack the knowledge and self discipline that it takes.

Now, YOUR qualifications, wordtalk?

A Budget is part of a Financial Plan, and it is hard to see the substance of teaching only one aspect.

A budget is part of a financial plan for those who need a budget. For those who are not disciplined in dealing with their finances any other way. The same as a diet is necessary for someone who is not disciplined to eat properly.

My teaching has been highly praised by many ministers when I have given my classes AT THE CHURCH on Saturdays, at NO charge. If it wasn't for my belief that tithing is NOT a requirement in the New Testament, I would have been teaching finances in Sunday School. I was asked to, but refused because the pastor said I would have to teach that tithing is required.

Some still do not understand what I teach.

I am a Money & Finance Minister. I teach finances according to Biblical principles.

I do NOT teach budgeting as I believe a budget, like a diet, is a short-term fix. I teach changing the way you look at finances. Changing the way you look at needs vs wants. To make changes in your life so that you do not get yourself in deep debt. To teach the power of interest - how it can enrich you, and how it can destroy you financially. I teach fiscal responsibility. I teach to live BELOW your means if possible SO THAT you will have more to give to others less fortunate. I teach against selfishness. I have a whole website dealing with nothing but giving. I teach that true giving is to give from the heart with no expectation of receiving something back. If you expect something back, does it even meet the definition of a gift?

I teach that those who give TO GET blessed are INVESTING, not giving.

I teach that pastors who teach that tithing is a requirement of Christians are false teachers. I teach that pastors who say that your giving starts at ten percent are false teachers. I teach that money has corrupted the church just as it has politicians, businesses, and so many people in general.

etc. etc. etc.

wordtalk is a good talker.

Seems those who talk best get elected President (of the US), and to other government offices because they sound so good and knowledgeable.  The good talker is believed by many.  The good talker can convince both the ignorant and those who are educated that the world is flat, or the earth is going to end on a certain date.

Each has to account for his own actions and beliefs.  We are accountable to God, not to each other.

What is right for one may not be right for another.

Although I believe it is misleading if not flat out wrong to use the term tithing when we are giving, all this debating is a waste of time.  As long as we agree that tithing is not REQUIRED for Christians, and that tithing has NOTHING to do with salvation, we'd be better off using our debating time with those who teach that tithing is a requirement in the New Testament.  That is the real message we need to get out.

EVERY church I have attended here in the central part of California teaches that tithing is a REQUIREMENT of Christians by God, and that we are robbing God if we don't bring a tenth of our income to the church.  I have NEVER attended a church that teaches that tithing is an option with one exception.  After meeting with several pastors, ONE of them started teaching that tithing was not a requirement but voluntary.

In conclusion, if wordtalk wants to give a tenth of his income to the church (or to the poor, or anywhere else) and wants to call it tithing, I will try to refrain from debating the issue.  But we don't want anyone to think that wordtalk tithes because he believes it is a requirement by God.

I will continue to encourage that Christians avoid using the word tithe when they are giving.  At the same time, I will continue to encourage Christians to be generous givers.  By generous, I mean according to what they have.  For most, I believe they (me included) can and should be giving far more than a mere ten percent of their income.

Since the tithes belonged to God in Scripture, did He accuse men to be stealing for receiving tithes from His people?

YES, He did.  In Nehemiah 13 he accused the PRIESTS of stealing a portion of the tithe that belonged to the Levites.  THAT IS THE ROBBING GOD REFERRED TO IN MALACHI 3.

GOD, not me, GAVE THE TITHE TO THE LEVITES.  If anyone else took His tithe, they were robbing God.  PLAIN AND SIMPLE.  GOD gave that command long AFTER Abram gave a tenth to Melchizedec.  GOD has given no one else permission to receive His tithe since He gave the command to take His tithe to the LEVITES.

What happened BEFORE God gave that command is irrelevant.  Once God gave His command, the issue is settled.  The tithe goes to THE LEVITES, per GOD.

That is the LATEST command God has given as to where to take His tithe.  Take it elsewhere, and YOU are robbing God PER THE SCRIPTURES.

In the Old Testament, the tithe was given to the Levites, to support the Levites.  The Levites were the singers, musicians, ushers, janitors - the servants to the priests.  Then these servants to the priests gave a tenth of what they received to the priests.

Is that the way you do it in church today?  Do you give the tithe to the ushers, musicians, singers, etc. etc. who do the work, and then let them give a tenth of what they get to the pastor?

The Levites were to keep up the Temple.  Now our bodies are the Temple.

NONE of the OT tithe was used for buildings, supplies, missionary work, etc. etc.

Do today's tithes go to the singers, musicians, ushers, etc.?

Are those who receive the tithe today allowed to own land?

Today's tithe is a joke.  It has NOTHING to do with the purpose and use of the Biblical tithe.

@Snowwy,

In Nehemiah 10:37 we learn that the firstfruits were taken to the temple for the priests, and the tithes were taken to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities. Therefore, we see that firstfruits have nothing to do with the tithe.

In Nehemiah 10:38 we learn that the Levites would take a tithe of the tithe to the Temple. It is this tithe, the tithe from the Levites, that went to the storehouse, not the tithe from the people. This is important to remember when we study Malachi 3:10.

1 Corinthians 9:13-14 has nothing to do with tithing.

The tithe didn't go to the Temple to begin with. It went to the Levites who lived in the Levitical cities. Then the Levites took a tenth of the tithe to the Temple. Therefore, only 1%, not a tithe, went to the Temple. But there were many different types of offerings that went to the Temple.

Isn't it odd that even though Abram gave a tenth directly to Melchizedek, the king/priest, that some Christians think they can give directly to God by giving it to their pastor?

I find it quite offensive that pastors have appointed themselves to be the receiver of what belongs to God. After all, the pastor says the tithe belongs to God. Then he appoints himself to receive the tithe!!!

God never gave any pastor or church permission to receive his tithe. God commanded His tithe be taken to the Levites, FOREVER, in Numbers 18.

Since the tithe belongs to God, if a pastor accepts it isn't he stealing it from God? Can someone just appointment themselves to received God's tithe?