₦airaland Forum

Hello Beaten. I've prayed for you. I'm sorry that you are having this experience. There is very little I know that can help you beside spiritual growth. That involves reading your Bible daily and listening to a gifted and prepared teacher of the Bible. I can direct you to Ichthys.com as one place where you can find such a teacher. You could also email me at jlk172003@yahoo.com if you want and I will do what I can to help you.

May the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you.

clemzo101:
I really love the wy you explained it, so are we still suppose to pay? You didn't come Al out to either answer yes or no,

I did. I said, "the tithe is no longer in force" and "we must not return to the Old Testament Mosaic Law in any form". Both statements mean that we are no longer responsible to pay the tithe.

But that does not mean that we are no longer responsible for our pastor-teachers, fellow believers in need or for indigent unbelievers. We are. It is up to us now how much and what exactly we will spare to provide for our teachers and for fellow Christians who have need and for unbelievers who are poor but we still have that responsibility before the Lord.

voraz:
As soon as I can, I will.
It's really a surprise that you replied tho

Please, let me know when you do.

clemzo101:
I am new here please. I need explanation concerning tithing. Why do pastors only quote Malachi 3? Whereas there are many verses that talked about tithing, from Old Testament to even Hebrews. Please I need very serious and convincing explanations

Hello. My explanation will be serious but you will decide just how convincing you find it.

First of all, I cannot speak for any pastors concerning why they quote only Malachi 3. You will have to ask them. The best I can do is take an educated guess. And that is that it is probably the best way they can try to convince believers who don't know the Bible well to pay them money. Also, there may be the problem of spiritual immaturity on the part of the pastor so that he does not understand the Scriptures in this particular matter.

Second, the tithe was the income tax of the ancient nation of Israel paid in agricultural products (both animals and plants crops or in their monetary equivalent plus 20% of the value). It was necessary to sustain the Temple worship and provide welfare for the indigent in the towns and villages and cities of Israel. Leviticus 27:30-33, Numbers 18:21-32, Deut 14:28-29.

After the Lord Jesus Christ came and paid the Sacrifice in His Blood, the Law of Moses was removed and a new Law in Christ was instituted so that the ritual provisions of the Mosaic Law and the rituals associated with the Temple are no longer in force, certainly not for the Gentiles today. So the tithe is no longer in force. Heb 8:6-13.

But under the New Covenant in Jesus Christ's Blood, we are now supposed to cheerfully and deliberately take responsibility for one another so that

1. those whom the Lord has tasked with feeding His Children with the Truth (that is, pastor-teachers) are provided with what they need for sustenance (1 Cor 9:4-14, Gal 6:6);

2. indigent believers find material support from fellow believers (2 Cor 8:13-15, 9:11-12);

3. unbelievers are witnessed to by our compassion and generosity toward each other and them as well (2 Cor 9:13).

So, while we must not return to the Old Testament Mosaic Law in any form so that we do not blaspheme against the Lord Jesus Christ (any recourse to the Mosaic Law denies that the Lord Jesus Christ has come in the flesh and died for our sins, Gal 5:4), we are not therefore to become cruel and uncaring toward others. In fact, we are now called to a higher standard of life where we are to be proactive in helping others who are less fortunate in material circumstances than we are, of course prioritizing our pastor-teachers and fellow believers in this as well.


May the Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

Dear voraz. Please email me at jlk172003@yahoo.com. Nairaland emails don't appear to hit my account anymore. Cheers.

chiteny:
Hello Chief,

Your posts are usually very long to read. I tried to read some. So i will just ask you to answer me in a simplistic manner (a few words in a sentence at most, bible verses could be dropped).

In your opinion, do you say that it's not in the place/age of today Christians to be used by God to perform miracles?
Also, are you categorically saying aside reading the bible, God does not speak to us through any other means?

I'm sorry that the long posts put you off. It is really hard for me to explain anything about the Bible in very few words. The Bible is a very complex book so that explanation tends to demand quite a bit of getting into.

To your first question, yes, that is what I am saying because of 1 Cor 13:8-10.

To your second question, yes, that is what I am saying because of Heb 1:1-2.

I can only refer you to my earlier posts for clearer explanations.

May the Peace of Jesus Christ be with you.

Teenoh:
Thanks so much for the advise.though its no rocket science, knowing something, and implementing same,is not so easy but I will try.God bless you

It is my great pleasure and an honor from the Lord to help another believer.

Have you considered using freelancing websites like Upwork.com? You should try it and others like it. Who knows where the Lord will open a door for you?

Pasqual:
Your explanations of the Bible marvels me..

That is understandable. Not very much of what I currently know and teach is common knowledge in churches today.

Pasqual:
Lemme clarify you on these two areas:
1. God's voice. Jesus said my sheep HEARS MY VOICE AND FOLLOWS ME. Apostle Paul also said as many as are led by The SPIRIT of GOD are the sons of God.

I am not sure what your point here is. I already quoted Hebrews 1:1-2 in this discussion and that passage certainly agrees with the above. But I think that you mean something different.

If you are anything like I was not too long ago, you probably believe that because we are Jesus's sheep, we will automatically know "His Voice" in supernatural manifestations. So, for example, if we have a dream or a vision, we can be sure that if it is a divine communication, we will automatically know it because the Lord Jesus says that we will know His Voice and never follow strangers.

But that is quite wrong. Life in this world is about free will (Matthew 16:24). We CHOOSE to believe in the Lord Jesus. We CHOOSE to follow Him moment by moment, day by day everywhere after. In other words, the Lord Jesus never meant that we will have no choice but to follow His Voice and never listen to strangers. No. What He meant is that those who truly are His Sheep, who choose to follow Him will be known by their deliberate choice to follow His Voice and avoid the seductions of a stranger.

That means that we will never be in a position where we will "just know" that it is the Lord unless we deliberately take the trouble of learning to know Who the Lord is so that we can tell when the voice we are hearing is His and when it is not (Matthew 11:29).

That immediately brings us back to how to know His Voice. For that, we have Hebrews 1:1-2, 2 Peter 1:19, 2 Timothy 3:16-17 among a vast multitude of Scriptures.

It is only in the Scriptures that we learn to know and that we hear the Voice of our very dear Lord and Savior Jesus Christ today. Outside of the Scriptures are the voices of the stranger and seducing spirits.

As for the Holy Spirit, our Lord Jesus said

John 16:13-14 NASB
[13]But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
[14]He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.

Note carefully the parts in bold:

>> the Holy Spirit works with the Truth, all the Truth.

>> the Holy Spirit takes from the Truth in order to help us by disclosing it to us.

For the apostles and the believers of the first generation, the work of the Holy Spirit was to show them new revelations of God that were not in the Old Testament. That was necessary so that the New Testament could be written. For us today, He takes from the Bible to remind us and explain to us what we need to know and live by.

If we are not reading the Bible, even if He took from it and revealed directly what is in it to us, how are we to know that it is really Him talking to us and not the devil attempting to seduce us? Beside that, He does not do that because it is our responsibility to actually seek to know what the Bible says. What He does is help us by "bringing to our mind" what we have read and believed and are willing to obey. He does not remove our responsibility to seek and learn and do our best to practise what we have believed.

This is why to "be led by the Spirit of God" is to deliberately commit ourselves to following the Scriptures wherever they go.

Pasqual:
2. Perfection: So you mean God is mature and as such, we need to get matured?

I am sure that I said no such thing. If you can quote where I did, I will retract it.

"Perfect" and "mature" are English words that tend to mean different things for us. But they translate a Greek word in the New Testament which embraces both concepts. God's command that we should be perfect is clearly a command that we be sinless. But where Paul talked about becoming a perfect man in Ephesians 4, he was not speaking of sinlessness (in NIV1984, in fact, you will not see the word "perfect" in the context, just "mature" ). Rather, he was talking about attaining maturity in the Truth, that is growing up spiritually until one has come to understand what really our Lord Jesus Christ is about and can therefore act in a responsible manner with such knowledge. The latter does not equate with or guarantee sinlessness.

Pasqual:
Perfection here means sinlessness.. Check out these passages:
Romans 8vs1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Galatians 5vs17. This I say then, Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
I John 3vs9. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him and he CANNOT SIN BECAUSE he IS BORN OF GOD.
I John 5vs18. And we know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Perfection where, do you mean? If you are referring to God's command, then, of course you are correct. If you are referring to Paul's teaching, however, you are quite wrong.

As for the passages, Romans 8:1 has nothing to do with being sinless or not. It simply says that those who are in Christ are no longer under condemnation. This follows directly upon Paul's discourse in Romans 7 which actually began in Romans 1. Paul meant there that it is not those who try (and inevitably fail) to keep the Mosaic Law or those who were given said Law (that is physical descendants of Abraham) who escape God's condemnation, rather it is those for whom Christ has atoned, that is, those who have accepted covering by the Lord Jesus Christ Who are no longer condemned. In fact, the context vehemently rejects any idea that sinless perfection is possible (Romans 7:18) or that it is necessary to Salvation (Romans 4:5-8 ).

Galatians 5:17 teaches us that if we walk in the Spirit, that is, deliberately seek the Truth, learn it, believe it and apply it and endeavor to help other willing people to do the same, we will not serve the desires of the flesh. That is a principle, a truth. But it does not at all suggest that we in fact can walk in the Spirit every moment of every day of our lives until we die or are resurrected at the Second Advent if we live to see that Day. It only says that every time we walk in the Spirit, we will not be serving the flesh. What one can take away from that is that we must fight to keep ourselves walking in the Spirit. If we falter or stumble, then we must pick ourselves up and get back to walking in the Spirit. But there is nothing here that even suggests that we can live every moment walking in the Spirit. If there were, it would immediately make James 3:2 a lie and that is impossible.

1 John 5:18 is not nearly as easy as you suppose it might be to interpret. If indeed it is so self-explanatory as you say, then we shouldn't have that much of a difficulty understanding how John says that after saying

1 John 2:1
[1]My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

If indeed, the translation of that passage is correct and your first impression of it is correct, then why did John say in the same letter above that if any believer sins (he is writing to believers and addresses them in the above verse), we have an Advocate in the Lord Jesus?

Clearly, John is saying something different than you understand and the translation may be part of the problem. The NIV1984 says:

1 John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him.

The difference is significant. First, clearly, from 1 John 2:1, John did not believe that believers can never sin. In fact, without chapters and verses (which were a human invention created for convenience), 1 John 2:1 is really part of what John was saying in the preceding chapter. In that preceding chapter, John had said "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). This is in the immediate context of 2:1.

Next, in 1 John 3:3-10, the language is similar to 1 John 5:18. In NIV1984, the translation still goes "continue to sin". That does not contradict 1 John 2:1. So it is a better translation than any one that suggests that it is impossible to sin after we have been saved. However, the translation is still wanting in light of the entire letter. It makes the most sense to understand what John is saying thus (and I paraphrase):

"those who truly belong to God do not persist in sin because they keep themselves safe (by diligent confession of every sin and failure and thus maintaining fellowship with the Lord and the whole Church, see 1 John 1:6 - 2:2) so that the evil one cannot harm them."

So, again, this verse does not teach that sinless perfection is possible or expected of believers although it is in fact commanded of us.

Pasqual:
Maybe the reason why you don't believe God still speak is because you haven't been spoken to before by him which is a clear-evidence that you ain't part of His sheep because that's a confirmation that you are His.

I suppose I can understand why you would take it upon yourself to try to understand whether anyone - especially someone who is claiming to teach the Truth - is a believer. I used to do that same exact thing right here on this forum years ago. Let me assure you that I respect that demand for credentials and will honor it immediately but I must ask you to consider my answer in good faith so that you do not condemn your own self with the demands that you make. That is always a danger for many of us believers when we test the authority of teachers.

I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. I am confident that He is Eternal God Who became a true Man - sinless, perfect Man though, unlike the rest of us - and died a terrible spiritual death on the Cross for our sins so that we can be reconciled to God and then He rose from the dead and was received again back into the Heavens for our justification.

So, I am a believer. There is nothing in the Bible that suggests that unless one has "been spoken to before by [God]", they are not believers. Several unbelievers received communications from God. The unbelieving Pharaoh got a dream about a global famine from God. Unbelieving Nebuchadnezzar received an eschatological dream from God as well. Just consider the staggering number of Israelite and Judahite kings who were evil and still received communications from God through prophets (same as believing kings themselves did too). Even the Pharisees heard the Lord Jesus Christ Himself directly. The wicked, idolatrous Israelites in the desert too heard the Lord and saw His Miracles. But they too were unbelievers who perished.

Still, refer to my earlier statements to understand about hearing God's voice. It isn't about being able to experience the miraculous but about choosing to listen to, learn from, believe in and diligently obey the Lord Jesus Christ as He is revealed in the Bible. That too is something I strive everyday to choose.

Pasqual:
The passages that I gave for perfection are self explanatory so let me explain I John 1vs8-10.

Vs 8: Anyone who claims he has no sin deceives himself and the truth is not in him. When the gospel is presented to you (at this point you've never experience calvary) and you claim you have no sin, you deceive yourself because the sin of Adam made us all sinners and you must have by omission or commission committed a particular sin in the past.

Vs9: if you confess your sin, He is faithful and just to forgive your sins and cleanse you from all unrighteousness. At this point you've come to calvary, no matter how filthy you are, no matter how moral you've been, no matter how long you've been a sinner or how many sins you've committed, He will cleanse your sin if only you'll come to the cross. Isaiah 1vs18 confirms that.

Vs10: If you say you have not sinned, you make him a liar and his word is not in you. Here, after you have been cleansed, if you begin to claim as if you never sinned in your life before you met God at the cross of calvary; then you make him a liar and his truth is not in you because HE in HIS WORD said all have #sinned (past tense) and come short of the glory of God.

I think that my earlier response to your presentation of 1 John 5:18 is sufficient for this one as well.

Pasqual:
Brother, Apostle Paul said a veil covered the eyes of the children of Israel when the old testament was read to them. Even the disciples at a point did not know the (meaning) scriptures John 20vs9 until Christ opened their understanding in Luke 24vs45 so its not something you argue. If you don't understand seek advice and the best person to get it from is God. (I am not claiming to know but your ignorant points are making me to tell you what I feel. That's me. I am frank with my words). Its not too late to visit calvary and get start this perfection journey. The earlier the better. After that you can ask him to teach you the scriptures and you'll practically know whether HE still speaks to men..

About a veil covering their hearts, this was about the unbelief and hard-heartedness of the Israelites (2 Corinthians 3:14).

As for the disciples of the Lord Jesus, they were believers so it wasn't so much about hardheartedness as it was about their lack of the Holy Spirit indwelling them. The Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, the calling out of the Gentiles to join the Church and the Second Advent were all a mystery of epic proportions to even the greatest Old Testament prophets, so, of course they couldn't understand so very much of what the Lord was teaching them. They did not until they received the unique Gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit and even then it still took several years before they really got it. This all had nothing to do with not being believers. It was only the earlier Israelites who did not believe in God and so could not understand Moses.

However, I am a believer. I have already made it clear that I am. And although there is a vast multitude of truths that I am yet to learn, I have learned and am continuing everyday to learn. I try to be diligent to learn everyday what the Lord has to teach me. So, I am already on that journey. And I certainly am not ignorant, or, at least, I am not ignorant on these matters at all.

But you should consider the possibility that it is you who have very much to learn here. You do have plenty of zeal, it is obvious and I commend you for it. Far better to be on fire for the Lord even if you don't really know all that much than to pretend to care and really not have much of a connection to Him. But remember that it was their zeal that led the Pharisees and the Jews to crucifying the Lord and that it was the same zeal that led them to persecuting the Church of our Lord Jesus.

Our dear brother Paul who was one of their number and was once one of their most zealous actually said,

Romans 10:2 NASB
[2]For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

Zeal is very good. But it can do great evil if it is not directed by knowledge of the Truth. I am a personal witness to this. So, allow me to appeal to you to take a little time to really prayerfully think about and reconsider what you have said in the light of the Scriptures and see if maybe you shouldn't make some changes in your approach to the Bible.

Pasqual:
I am out of this discussion sir. I am grateful for the time we spent here to sharpen each other.. We can still discus other issues here nut not this anymore..

GOD BLESS YOU ALL

I thank you too for engaging. I hope and pray that you will think about these things prayerfully again and make adjustments. And I will remain open to further discussion regarding anything that would be edifying to you and myself and all of our brothers and sisters in this Race.

May the Peace of our Lord Jesus Christ keep you.

lightwhite:
Thanks sir, I've sent you a message.

Good to hear back from you. I will answer your email shortly.

Brokay2908:
To all these I will only say that we may try as we may to rationalize and evaluate from the human perspective, what is possible or not but that will not take us anywhere. Remove the power and grace of God from the equation, and Christianity becomes as dead as any other religion. But with God, all things are possible. Done with the conversation. Have a nice time.

Indeed I agree that with God all things are possible. That is why we must strive to walk in sanctification confident in the ability of the Lord to change our bodies of sin into bodies of perfect righteousness so that we can live freely before Him without concern that we might fail Him again.

Brokay2908:
My question was not about whether there is more than one fulfilment or not, neither is it about whether blood and fire accompanied it or not, but that if Peter rightly make reference to that statement, what will disqualify our own time now as part of the last days that is supposed to witness the manifestation of the spirit.

I'm not sure that any answer I give you will make a difference seeing how you have pretty much rejected everything I have said for no reason more apparent to me than that it is not what you yourself have said.

The point in my answer was that given that even then when Peter was speaking, Joel was only partially fulfilled, the Scriptures invite us to expect that there was something not usual about the Pentecost. The signs that followed the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at that time occurred for a reason. Once that reason was fulfilled, they were ceased for a while. At the completion of the prophecy of Joel, the signs will be given again. Besides, the gift of speaking miraculously in foreign tongues was not even mentioned in Joel and yet that is where you have hinged upon to insist that such gifts are active today.

Of course, I don't believe that speaking in tongues was not part of the context of eschatological prophecy that comprised Joel and other prophets. It certainly was. My point is merely that you won't hear anything unless it agrees with you. Your questions have not really been to hear what I have to say but to "trap me in a fault" to feel that you were right all along. In fact your words in the rest of your post here go to that effect.

I am sorry that you don't believe me but it is not something strange in the Church today. So, I can only do my best to answer your questions and ensure that you have accurate information on the Truth in order to make any adjustments in your life that may be necessary, should you choose to, that is.

So, again, Peter's and the other believers' experiences of those days were not to continue because the Age changed. We came into the Age of the Church when the Lord brought Gentiles in a flood into the Church. So, the promises meant for Israel as a nation were truncated as a new era that required a different means of dispensing God's Truth began. The New Testament was written and thus we the Church were given an absolute and completely reliable guide on how we must live until the Return Of The Lord.

The existence of the New Testament therefore is why there is no "manifestation of the Spirit" for us today. Of course, for the Church everyday, if you have eyes at all, you will see the Spirit manifest in myriad ways in your life. But given that it is only the sign-gifts that constitute such manifestation for you, it is understandable that you feel bereft without them.

Brokay2908:
Talking of ratifying authority. Do those that proclaim the gospel now have no authority to be ratified? Didn't Jesus give them the authority? Jesus said the signs will follow those that believe, not just the Apostles alone, or is the great commission limited to them alone?

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I believe that I already answered this sufficiently. I would only be repeating myself if I answered it again. I think the only new thing here is the passage from Mark which is very commonly known to be in question as to its authenticity. A lot of Bibles indicate that everything after verse 8 in Mark 16 is not in the best manuscripts of the Bible. In other words, it is highly unlikely that you just quoted Scripture.

Brokay2908:
"We walk by faith not by sight..."Are the manifestations of the spirit not also meant to produce faith, especially for the unbelievers?

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Are the workings of the spirit not a product of faith? Is it not by faith that the gifts of the spirit are operated?

Again, the New Testament exists now. And Faith, according to the New Testament, comes by hearing the Word of Christ (Romans 10:17), not by seeing miracles or by performing them. This too is the gist of Hebrews 1:1-2 as I have said before.

Brokay2908:
On 1 Corinthians 13:
Yes you yourself can see the obvious. You can see it all over the chapter even right from the last verse of chapter 12 up to the very conclusion in the last verse of chapter 13. But you show me where in that chapte, the completion of canon scriptures is referred to as that complete thing. And if it is not in that chapter, show me where it is elsewhere in the Bible.

You couldn't even provide references to support your claim that workings of the spirit will be seized in between the establishment of the church and tribulation. You are deliberately putting in what the Bible is not saying and overriding the obvious truth with your assumptions; interpreting the Bible just to support your unfounded doctrine.

As I said, you weren't ever really interested in what I had to say, were you? You only needed to convince yourself that you were right by trying to find something wrong with my arguments. I understand that we should take care to avoid false teachers but my arguments have been pretty straightforward. If I am deliberately putting in what the Bible is not saying, what of your own deliberate ignorance of what it is saying? You are the one making this much fuss of 1 Corinthians 13 even though verse 8 clearly says that tongues and prophecy and "knowledge" will all end somehow and their end is connected with the arrival of something perfect. Even if you don't agree that the "something perfect" here is the complete Canon of the Bible, what else have you proposed it to be except for Love? Well, love is here, is it not? Why then are you accusing me of putting things in the Bible that are not there?

1 Corinthians 12 - 14 was written to warn the Corinthians that the Body exists to edify or build itself up, not for show and competition. It is right there as you say. The more excellent way is love. We should seek the best gifts so that we can build each other up, Paul says. How is the Church built up? Is it not in the Truth? Is that not what we grow up in? Where is the Truth? Is it not in the Bible? Where did the Bible come from? Is it not from specially commissioned men who wrote what the Spirit specially revealed to them? How would anybody know to trust such men? Is it not through signs and wonders that only men who have God's Authority could do? Why then would we still be needing signs and wonders when God's Counsel has been fully declared? Is it not sufficient now to turn to the Word of God to know whether anybody claiming to be speaking for God is really speaking for Him? Do we not trust the Bible to have all the guidance that God has provided so that we can live our most productive lives for Him now? If we don't, how can we trust anything else to truly be God's guidance for us? How can we be sure that a dream or a vision or anything miracle is not a work of the enemy to deceive us?

The Bible is the only safe way to live today and rather than be children like the Corinthians and insist on fireworks and lots of noise which serve no useful purpose anymore, should we not rather commit ourselves to growing in the Truth and helping one another do the same?

Brokay2908:
I think I don't need to go further anymore. I'm done with the discussion. The truth is there for all to see, as many as desired to see and the evidence too abounds.

I understand. I do hope and pray that you will look at things again with less compromised eyes and see the Truth. There is no reason why anyone would not want the miraculous. I certainly do. And it is why I appreciate every day of my life. I see the Lord do things that I have no other way of explaining except the miraculous. And I certainly look forward to the Millennium and to Eternity. But I will not let a hunger for signs and wonders to blind me to what the Bible actually says.

Brokay2908:
There are forms of perfection which definitely do not apply to us while on earth, but to walk perfectly before God is possible.

God said to Abraham:

Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

But did Abraham succeed at obeying that command? See Genesis 20 for one possible illustration of his own very human imperfection.

Brokay2908:
Christ said

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

And the Spirit of Christ said through James:

James 3:2
[2]For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well...

Which is why He also says through John

1 John 1:8-10
[8]If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
[9]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[10]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Brokay2908:
Even, concerning Job, this was recorded about him

Job 1:1
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

And the Lord said this to Job too:

Job 38:1-2
[1]Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
[2]"Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?

Brokay2908:
Lastly, the ultimate goal of the church is perfection

Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Perfection here means maturity. It is not the same as sinlessness. Even a believer as mature as Paul was stumbled every now and then. Peter too was a very mature believer and was with Paul one of the greatest apostles but he too stumbled every now and then.

We ought to strive for maturity by all means. But sinlessness is not a wise goal to assume that we can achieve while we still live in a body of sin.

Brokay2908:
God won't be saying all these if it is unattainable. We can't strive for it if we don't first believe it is possible. Let's not assume it is impossible, but believe it is possible and then strive for it.

As I began to say above, sinlessness is not a wise goal to assume that we can achieve in this body of sin. We will continue to stumble until we put off this flesh and put on the new body from above. This does not mean that we ought not to resist sin. We must. The more we love the Lord the less we will want to sin against Him. This is true and worthy of all belief. But we cannot reach sinlessness in this body. We must receive a new body to be completely free of sin.

Insisting on believing that we can be completely free of sin in this body will only lead to self-righteousness and hypocrisy worthy of the Pharisees. We will be tempted to start redefining sin to suit ourselves. But if we accept that we live in a body of sin from which we hunger to be delivered, then we will also maintain a running battle for sanctification and continue to maintain a humble hope of Resurrection that glorifies the Lord we love.

Brokay2908:
Hello house,
Couldn't come back online until now

@ihedinobi2

Peter said concerning the outpouring of he spirit at Pentecost that this is a fulfilment of Joel's prophecy concerning the last days. Are we no longer in the last days for the manifestations of the spirit which include dreams and visions to be ceased?

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

This is the full quote:

Joel 2:28-32 NIV
“And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.

As you can see, in the context, there is much more involved than what happened at the Pentecost. This is one reason that in my most immediate response to Pasqual, I explained that this prophecy of Joel's, like many others in the Old Testament, had more than one fulfillment planned by the Lord.

Peter correctly taught that the outpouring of the Spirit at the Pentecost was a fulfillment of the Joel prophecy. But that does not mean that that was the only fulfillment planned. Just like John the Baptist was a fulfillment of the prophecy that Elijah would return to prepare Israel for the Messiah's First Advent and yet Elijah is still going to come back during the Tribulation for the preparation of the nation of Israel for the Messiah's Second Advent, in the same manner, the Spirit's outpouring at Pentecost was also just a foretaste of what will happen during the Millennium when the Lord Jesus will take total control of the world and rule over all the nations from Jerusalem.

Right now, we don't see "blood and fire and billows of smoke" or the sun going completely dark and the moon turning to blood. These are supposed to accompany the outpouring of the Spirit that results in prophecy and prophetic dreams.

In the days of the apostles, the signs were given with the outpouring of the Spirit for the reasons that I have already explained:

>> to ratify the authority of those who proclaimed the Gospel to unbelievers

>> to ratify the authority of those who taught the Church and revealed previously unknown truths about God's Plan, for example, the Book of Revelation and the other writings of the New Testament.

We were called to walk by faith and not by sight. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of the Lord. The signs and miracles were necessary until the Bible was completed and available to Christian assemblies. Once it was, there was no more place for proving through miraculous signs that any given person was truly speaking for God. You only had to read the Bible to know if they were or weren't.

Brokay2908:
Is there any scriptural reference that states that the manifestations of the spirit will be seized at some point in time during the last days?

There are many Scriptural truths that are not stated outright. In fact, there are very few that are stated outright. We have to study closely and follow the leading of a truly gifted and prepared Bible teacher in order to actually begin to see much that is actually in the Bible.

An easy example is the Trinity. Even today, there are Jews who take issue with Christianity because we believe that God is a Trinity. They think that "Hear, o Israel, the Lord our God is One God" excludes every possibility of a Trinity. But it is a rather obvious teaching from the Scriptures even though it is never obviously spelt out anywhere.

In the same vein, it is rarely a very useful question to ask that anybody show you where things are stated outright in the Bible. Many things are. But the vast majority of Christian beliefs and teachings are hidden from a cursory glance at the Scriptures. Finding them requires work, very hard work.

Brokay2908:
Please, read 1 Corinthians chapter 13 again with an open mind, and you will see that the writer is not making any reference to completion of Bible as the perfect which is coming but saying that Love/Charity is the perfect way.

I encourage you to do the same. Read it with an open mind as well and see if verses eight to ten could really have been saying anything other than the removal of prophecy and speaking in foreign languages miraculously because something perfect comes to replace them.

If you believe that this perfect thing that comes to replace them is Love/Charity, well, again, you would have to agree that they have been replaced.

Love does have a place in this discussion but not in the way you appear to understand it. The sign-gifts gripped the Corinthian believers' imagination with a fever. Just like a lot of believers today are doing, they were measuring themselves against each other in terms of their possession and exercise of sign-gifts like speaking in tongues. This, in fact, was why Paul had to defend his apostleship to them because they had become captivated by smooth-talking, trickish people who presented themselves as "super-apostles" who were superior even to the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So, Paul had to teach them that sign-gifts did not matter as much as they thought it did. What mattered was spiritual growth and production for the Lord. And that can only happen when a believer loves the Lord enough to want to listen to Him, believe Him and obey Him and then also do his best to help his fellow believers to learn to know the Lord, believe Him and obey Him too. This is the work of love in our lives. But you will notice that we can only know the Lord - and therefore believe and obey Him - by being diligent to grow in the Truth of His Word.

So, when Paul says that the sign-gifts will pass away when the perfect comes, he could only be talking - in that context, that is - about the completed Word of Truth through which our love for the Lord and His Church can be demonstrated.

But as I said, that was a Scriptural principle that quite obviously applies to more than the completed canon of the Scriptures.

Brokay2908:
By the way, the Bible as we have it was not compiled until around 400 AD and even up till now, some still don't have access to it. What will now be the suitable time for the Holy Spirit to stop His work

That is actually false. The Bible was completed and known in its full canon by the churches before the last apostle died. There was no confusion about what the canon was by the end of the first century.

What the Roman Catholic Church did was of little moment.

It is true that not everyone has a Bible. But today, the miracle is that there is not a heart that thirsts for the Truth that the Lord does not satisfy. He does not need to use sign-gifts to get the Truth to people when He can use willing believers who want to take the Truth to everyone who is willing to have it to do so. The complete Bible exists. Willing gifted and prepared Bible teachers and evangelists exist as well. These are God's Tools today in addition to mature believers who possess myriad gifts that aid the teachers and evangelists to do their work superbly.

Brokay2908:
You said the offices of the Apostles and Prophets are no more functioning. Are dreams and visions, gifts of the spirit specifically for these offices for them to be seized along with the offices. Or what gifts are left for the evangelists, pastors, teachers to use. At least teachers will need revelation/understanding of the word of God, not just mere reading and carnal interpretation. The evangelist too will need some signs to witness to unbelievers that they may believe.

As I said before, it was not only apostles and prophets who experienced the miraculous. Philip - as Pasqual here pointed out - was an evangelist. Stephen was a deacon (although he was a Bible teacher too). Cornelius was still outside the Church when an angel visited him. So, it isn't because apostles and prophets were removed from the Church that those sign-gifts stopped functioning. The sign-gifts were removed together with the apostles and prophets for the same reason - the Bible is now complete and accessible to anyone who truly hungers for the Truth.

The Bible teacher too learns from other Bible teachers until he comes to spiritual maturity and has learned how to handle the Word of Truth correctly so that he can find truths in the Scriptures that other believers entrusted to him can benefit from. There is no place anymore for sign-gifts in that process. It is partly a test of how much we want the Truth that we have to work hard now to learn it without the benefit of divine dreams and visions.

Brokay2908:
Are you sure these gifts are truly not needed anymore? That the Bible is the perfect which is to come? And there is no need for workings of the Holy Spirit which means He is not present or why would the spirit be present, if His workings are no longer needed.

Per your first question, I am. Per your second, as I said before, the Bible was the immediate issue that Paul was referring to but it was a spiritual principle and applies to more than the perfection of the Canon.

Per your third, that is your own argument. I do not believe that the cessation of sign-gifts and the offices of the apostle and prophet means that the Holy Spirit is no longer present or that " His workings" are no longer needed. It is still His Work to give the gift of teaching and evangelism and a vast number of other unique gifts that the Church needs to grow itself to maturity. It is still His Work to help each believer learn, remember and apply the truths of the Bible. That He does not use visions and divine dreams anymore does not mean anything like what you have decided to conclude on your own. That is not my argument and even so, it is a false argument. The sign-gifts are not the limits of the Lord's miraculous ability.

idowuajenifuja:
God still speak all you need is your bible and your quiet time to listen to his voice

Very true. Of course, through our consciences, the Lord also guides us through myriad decisions that the Scriptures do not address directly. But this is why we need a strong familiarity with and understanding of the Bible which can only come from reading it consistently, thinking about what it says and listening to gifted and prepared teachers of the Bible: our consciences are educated by what we choose to listen to and believe. The better we understand the Bible through these means, the better we will hear the Spirit in our own hearts prompting us in all the right directions.

Pasqual:
Was Ananias also an Apostle? Why did God tell him (in a vision) to send to Peter? Acts 10.. These things are rights or special privileges of children of God.

And it shall come to pass afterwards that I will pour My Spirit upon all flesh, (Apostles and Prophets or church leaders alone right?); and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions. And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My Spirit.. Joel 2vs28,29.. Read Acts 2vs17,18..

See!! These privileges are exclusively reserved for God's children and if you ain't 1, you might doubt. You musn't be a prophet or apostle before you get these visions..

Stephen was a deacon (just a worker in the church who served tables) but when he was being martyred; his eyes opened and he saw Jesus in Heaven standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7vs56)

What about another Deacon in the person of Philip? He was miraculously teleported from the Ethiopian Eunuch because he was a son.. Today we are still sons and we have these privileges.

If God can't give us these i.e. God limits His manifestations in our time then He will also limit His demands of Holiness and Righteousness because He is the one that makes it possible..

Our only problem is that we want to use our natural knowledge to understand Spiritual things. These things don't work like that.. Happy Sunday and have a refreshing time in the presence of the ALMIGHTY..

Good morning

Good morning to you too.

The following is something I already said in response to a similar objection also stated on this thread:

ihedinobi2:
Yes, I do believe that the Lord still calls us into offices in the Church. But I do believe as well that some offices have been retired. The offices of the apostle and the prophet have been retired because the foundation of the Church has been laid:

Ephesians 2:20
[20]having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone

1 Corinthians 3:10
[10]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.


There are still works to do even as the context of the first verse and the second verse above teach. The foundation may have been laid but we still have to build on it, so, there are still evangelists and pastor-teachers. Then in addition to these, there are still myriad other gifts given to aid them in their work of bringing repentant unbelievers into the Church and feeding and raising them up in the Truth so that we each come to maturity and are able to help others as well.

You are right that the miracles and gifts were not limited to the apostles. Acts 6:8 is one of many examples of passages that indicate that many other believers were gifted in like manner. And the succeeding chapter to the one in 1 Corinthians that you quoted made it clear that other believers had an assortment of such sign gifts. The reason for this was that the New Testament was not complete at the time and was not widely distributed. Until it was, the Church needed verification of divine authority for everyone who claimed to speak in God's Name. That was especially what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 2:4. But once the New Testament was complete and accessible, there was no further need for signs or even for prophets and apostles. See 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

About the passage in Joel, it has multiple fulfillment. It was first fulfilled at the end of the First Advent to celebrate the calling out of the Church and to make it clear that God accepted the Sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the first time, the Holy Spirit was given to live within sinful men because God no longer counted their sins against them as a result of the Perfect Atonement made by the Lord Jesus Christ. Today, the Spirit is still being poured out on all who believe. But the signs prophesied in Joel did not last in the case of the Church.

But in the Millennium, after the Victory of our Lord at Armageddon and the removal from the Earth of all His enemies, the Lord will renew the Earth and the Spirit will be poured out like He has never been in all of human history. Even unbelievers still in the Earth will have Him restraining some of their worst impulses in a manner very different than what He has been doing until now since the beginning of human history. This is to celebrate the joining of the Church to the Lord in Resurrection in perpetuity and the Restoration of the Nation of Israel to the Lord and to her place of supremacy over the nations of the Earth.

So, during the Millennium, what we experienced a taste of at Pentecost and shortly afterwards will be given again greatly expanded and will continue until the destruction of the physical universe and the beginning of the Eternal State.

As for using "natural knowledge to understand spiritual things", I'm not sure that I know what you mean. Are you merely objecting to my using reasoned arguments to try to understand what the Bible says by comparing what it says in one place to what it says to another? If you are, then you would be objecting to your own approach as well, would you not?

Pasqual:
If God can't give us these i.e. God limits His manifestations in our time then He will also limit His demands of Holiness and Righteousness because He is the one that makes it possible..

About the above, one thing has nothing to do with the other. God has never conditioned our obedience to Him on His Miracles. We are to obey Him because as God He commands it of us His Creatures and because as our Redeemer He commands it of us His Slaves and because as our Father He commands it of us His Children. As for helping us, that is why He gave us His Word and His Spirit. As we learn His Word, His Spirit within us uses It to change us as we believe It and try to obey It. That way, we grow better and better at obeying Him. This does not require the use of such miracles as you speak of. That was the point of the whole letter of 1 Corinthians.

Pasqual:
You interpreted wrongly!! Where was it written there that God don't speak to men anymore?

Perhaps I did but you'll need the Bible to tell you that. So, how do you read it? Why do you believe that God still speaks to men in dreams and visions?

I shouldn't need to tell you that I never said that He doesn't talk to men today. I just said that He doesn't do so in dreams and visions right now.

Pasqual:
After His Son died, how did we get Revelation since His Son has come and gone?

The spiritual task of the apostles and prophets was to complete the Bible so that the Church will walk in the light of the new revelation. The Book of the Revelation was part of that task.

Pasqual:
Apostle Paul told the Galatians that He wasn't taught the gospel by man but He received it directly from God. Remember He was not a direct disciple of Jesus! Hê did even see Jesus face to face!!

Yes indeed. Paul was an apostle. And He did see the Lord Jesus face to face (Acts 9) when he was not only called to the Faith but also called to replace Judas as the 12th apostle of the Lamb.

As an apostle, he was one of the special messengers who were tasked to complete the Bible so that the Church can walk in its light through the ages to follow. So, of course he was going to be receiving revelation straight from the Lord rather than only from the Bible which was incomplete at the time.

Pasqual:
If those in the early church received messages from God through Angels, Visions, dreams, trance, direct word from The Holy Spirit and so on, and we can't receive that anymore then we should not be referred to as those who are part of the church. Understand spiritual things erh!

We are the Church for whom the New Testament was written. Since the Bible has been completed and the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ is complete in the Scriptures, there isn't much of a place left for other means of divine communications anymore. That is the meaning of Hebrews 1:1-2.

Pasqual:
Jesus Christ said THE HOLY SPIRIT will explain to us things written about HIMSELF; hw will the Holy Spirit explain to us if we are not communicating with HIM.. You don't have any option other than to believe GOD still speaks to man

I am not sure that He said exactly that. But if we expect Him to tell us in a dream or a vision the very things that we should be reading since they have been "WRITTEN about [the Lord]", then we have failed to understand what our Lord was saying, have we not? We have the Bible now and we have pastor-teachers, so we ought to read the Bible and listen to qualified pastor-teachers in order to be able to walk in the Spirit. The Bible does say that.

Pasqual:
Ihedinobi2, you have a shallow understanding of the Bible and a vague spiritual perception.
BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THESE ARE FACT.
1. No position or spiritual office has been retired.
2. Dreams and visions as well as those numerous ways I mentioned are still used as means of God communicating with us.

Our problem is dat we don't argue to know! We claim we know everything and we can never change our belief even though our stand is not right. If we can change that, then we can argue right and learn new things which will be useful to our lives!!!

FACT: GOD STILL SPEAK TO MEN TODAY

Perhaps I am. Perhaps I am not. That is for God and the man reading the Bible to judge.

As for what is fact, I always prefer to stand by the Bible. I don't mind disagreeing with what you prefer to call facts. If the Scriptures say that the offices of the apostle and the prophet have been retired, then that is what I accept as fact, not what you insist to the contrary.

As for arguments, well, I could say the same to you. But it matters little. The Bible is the Judge here and I have shown you how I read it. If you disagree, then you disagree. I am quite convinced of the correctness of what I have said.

Brokay2908:
But this doesn't mean we should exclude dreams and visions. God can use any method including dreams and visions

It does mean that.

You are right that God can. His Ability is never in question. But His Choice can be. Does He still use divinely sent dreams and visions or does He not? Scriptures say not. Doesn't mean He can't. Only means that He chooses not to.

Brokay2908:
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says they will be done away with when the perfect comes...but has the perfect comes?
You said in your earlier post that there won't be need for the miracles and signs until tribulation, why then would we need it at the time when the foundation of the church has already been laid, since you said above that He retired some offices - they were only for foundational works. And as a matter of fact, Christ is regarded as the Foundation of the Church on which the Apostles and Prophets built on (Ephesians 2:20).

"The perfect" here is the complete Bible. And obviously it has come. There is no doubt that that verse referred to more than just the complete Bible. We are also looking forward to the Return Of The Lord and the restoration of all things to its original perfect state before Adam sinned and also to the New Heavens and New Earth where there will be no sin at all. In each of these instances, when the perfect comes, the imperfect will give way. When the Lord returns, the current evil world that lies in the evil one (1 John 5:19) will be destroyed (not the whole physical world, just the spiritual system) and replaced with a renewed world where the curse of Genesis 3 will be lifted and an Eden-like state will be restored.

Then also, after His 1000-year reign, the entire physical universe will be destroyed and a completely new creation made to replace it where all of God's Family will live forever with Him without any more unrighteousness.

But, primarily, the context was about the Scriptures. Once they were completed, the need for verification of divine authority would no longer exist. Therefore the proofs of divine authority, namely, the signs - miracles etc -, would be retired. That is what happened.

The Tribulation is a special period when the Lord will focus almost exclusively on Israel's spiritual Salvation. Since we the Gentiles have already responded to the Gospel over the last nearly 2000 years in such overwhelming numbers while Israel has been partially hardened with a small minority believing in the Lord Jesus over the same time, it will be their turn to listen to men who have been specially ordained by the Lord to bring the Gospel to them. These men will actually recreate the Jewish religious system in a manner that properly communicates the Gospel to them. Because this will all be a very novel affair, their authority will need to be verified and it will be with miraculous signs such as have never been seen since the days of the apostles and prophets.

So, it is still about laying the foundation but for the Jews, not for everybody. And it is necessary for the Jews because unlike the Gentiles, they have a unique system of worship commanded by God which sets them apart in the world as God's firstborn among the nations.

Finally, yes indeed, the Lord Jesus is the Foundation of the Church. That Foundation is the whole New Testament which was a revelation hidden from the Old Testament Prophets although they all prophesied about it. The New Testament is the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the Foundation of the Church. Once that testimony was completed, everything we believers have done since is to build upon it.

Brokay2908: But why are we asked to be perfect?

Sorry, didn't see this question before.

We are commanded to be perfect because we are supposed to prove our calling and our choice of the Lord Jesus Christ as our Master by striving to be like Him. But we will never be perfect with a body of sin. What counts though is that we demonstrate our desire for perfection by striving moment by moment, day by day to actually be perfect and confessing every sin and every failure so that we maintain fellowship with the Lord in fervent hope of a day when we will exchange this sinful body for a perfect, eternally sinless one.

Brokay2908:
If the dream was a result of the preaching, then, I guess those that have been preached to will likewise be having such kind of revelational dreams and they too would have been converted. Their salvation will just follow that process in like manner. But you and I know this is not the case. There is no way we can remove God's hand in the conversion of souls.

What does this mean?

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

We cannot begin to separate the spirit from the word, or else we kill it. Without the Holy Spirit teaching us and convicting sinners, the word is as good as dead.

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

That does not quite follow. Each person has different priorities and concerns. So our dreams are different. I will dream of whatever has most occupied my thoughts and energized my emotions at night and you will dream of whatever has occupied your thoughts and energized your emotions at night. It is entirely possible that someone comes to a crossroads about questions of eternity and hears the Gospel at this critical juncture and that leads to very vivid and troubled dreams about his choices and he as a result accords the Gospel its due respect and is saved. This too is a work of God. It need not be a revelation from the Lord Himself any more than the Lord needs to appear from Heaven for everyone who is saved just because He did it for the apostle Paul. Again, it does not follow that that the Hand of the Lord is removed just because the dream was not a divine revelation.

Of course I agree that the Spirit is the One Who convicts us to repent and turn to the Lord. But it need not be in this manner. His Ways are myriad and varied. I feel sure that you yourself was saved under different circumstances. I personally was saved when I was so young that I don't even remember how it happened. Then several years later, my salvation was confirmed to me under circumstances that were significantly different from your friend's. There need not be a dream or a vision or anything of that sort for the Lord to have been involved.

Brokay2908:
Sir, do you believe God still calls people into spiritual offices?

Ephesians 4:11-13 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

If the work of ministry, of edification, of perfection is not yet complete, how will the Holy Spirit retire His works on the body of Christ?

Apostle Paul also exhorted churches about spiritual gifts like, especially the Corinthian church If gifts of the Holy Spirit were meant to just complete the writing of the words and works of Jesus, then it should only be limited to these specific Apostles who were given that work, or at most only the original 12 or 120, not extended to and functioning in the congregations they established. For what purpose will the congregations, even in the absence of the Apostles, be demonstrating the gifts of the spirit. I guess the Apostles themselves gave reasons for the manifestations other spirit in the church.

1 Corinthians 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Yes, I do believe that the Lord still calls us into offices in the Church. But I do believe as well that some offices have been retired. The offices of the apostle and the prophet have been retired because the foundation of the Church has been laid:

Ephesians 2:20
[20]having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone

1 Corinthians 3:10
[10]According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.


There are still works to do even as the context of the first verse and the second verse above teach. The foundation may have been laid but we still have to build on it, so, there are still evangelists and pastor-teachers. Then in addition to these, there are still myriad other gifts given to aid them in their work of bringing repentant unbelievers into the Church and feeding and raising them up in the Truth so that we each come to maturity and are able to help others as well.

You are right that the miracles and gifts were not limited to the apostles. Acts 6:8 is one of many examples of passages that indicate that many other believers were gifted in like manner. And the succeeding chapter to the one in 1 Corinthians that you quoted made it clear that other believers had an assortment of such sign gifts. The reason for this was that the New Testament was not complete at the time and was not widely distributed. Until it was, the Church needed verification of divine authority for everyone who claimed to speak in God's Name. That was especially what Paul was saying in 1 Corinthians 2:4. But once the New Testament was complete and accessible, there was no further need for signs or even for prophets and apostles. See 1 Corinthians 13:8-10.

Brokay2908:
Though I have many examples of dreams coming true, let me just share this. I have a friend who before was a Muslim. Somewhere, he met someone who preached to him but he still didn't receive the gospel. Finally, he slept and had a vision-like dream which was so real and shook him to his bones. The dream is a kind of illustration of what happened to those that received Christ and those that do not. Immediately waking up from that dream, he sought after this brother who had been preaching to him and was converted. By God's grace he has received a call of God related to evangelism upon his life with gifts of the spirit including speaking in tongues, prophecies, visions, healing...he is now bearing the fruits of the kingdom.

Are we now going to still say this and numerous other things we witness among Christians support the belief that there is no more workings and communications of God like in the Apostolic era?

As I said, I cannot be certain what anyone dreamed even if the result of the dream is their salvation and zeal for the Lord. But I am very glad to hear that that is how things worked out in this instance. My conviction is that everything that the person in question had been hearing about the Gospel perhaps coupled with their own experiences of life built together into a dream as our minds are wont to do and that made him take it seriously enough to seek to be saved. Dreams come from the varied activities of each day (Ecclesiastes 5:3).

No doubt, God has used dreams to communicate to mankind in the past and will do so again during the Tribulation but whenever He does, He overrides normal sequence in doing so. Our dreams normally result from the things that occupy our minds everyday.

Pasqual:
Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.
I've not followed this from the beginning but from your few points, I believe you are saying God don't speak through dreams anymore..

God speaks in diverse ways sir. Until now, HE is still speaking and the ways HE spoke in time past are still ways in which HE is speaking today. HE speaks through some of these ways:
1. From the scriptures
2. That small still voice.
3. Through dreams
4. Through trance
5. Through tongues when the interpreter is there to interpret it.
6. Through word of knowledge
7. Through word of wisdom
8. Through prophecy..

The fact is that GOD is still speaking and if we yield ourselves to hear from God, he will still speak to us today..

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. My reasons are in the post you quoted. I shared two Bible passages to explain.

Hello lightwhite. I left a message for you on another thread, the one you most recently commented on but perhaps you'll find a message here more easily. Please email me at jlk172003@yahoo.com. I failed to receive your email sent through Nairaland.

Cheers.

@DigitalDibia, I'm a Christian and I believe that the Christian hope does offer a strong help with issues like this. I'm not a psychologist although I do have some knowledge of psychology. If you are okay with it, I would be happy to discuss the Gospel with you and perhaps see if that may help you.

lightwhite:
I know how you feel.

I feel the same way.

I read about other people's problems to cheer myself.... which is what led me to your thread.

And as usual, I feel better,

knowing I'm not the only one this boat is rocking.

Hi, I got a notification for an email from you but unfortunately the email did not make it to my inbox. Please email me at jlk172003@yahoo.com.

mikkyjagga1:
Thanks for this, means alot to me! God bless you

I am very happy to help, brother.

Brokay2908:
Why then do we see people have a dream which later come to pass in real life? And if there is no communications through revelations, what other ways is God communicating with His people these days.

Regarding your first question, there are many claims to that effect but they are very hard to verify. One can only verify their own experiences in this regard. So, I really cannot confirm or deny what someone says they have experienced with dreams and their being revelations. I personally have never had such a dream that came to pass. As to why I would not believe that anyone else today has had or could have, the reason is the same as my answer to your next question.

Hebrews 1:1-2 NASB:

Hebrews 1:1-2
[1]God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
[2]in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.


2 Peter 1:16-21 KJV

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Since the inauguration of the New Covenant in the Blood of our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, only the Bible is given for our guidance. This is why the apostles and prophets were given to write the New Testament to complete the revelation of God in Christ Jesus and give us the full counsel of His Will. Their authority was demonstrated through various miracles and signs including speaking in foreign languages that they had never learned and mediating the Gift of the Holy Spirit by laying hands on new believers at the time. But once they finished writing the Scriptures per their commission from the Lord, all those gifts and signs that served to demonstrate that they were truly sent by the Lord to give new revelation to the world about Himself were retired by the Holy Spirit. So, there is no more need for such signs and miracles. And there will not be until the beginning of the Tribulation when the Lord sends special messengers to Israel to prepare them for His Return as the King over the whole Earth.

emmask:
Hello Everyone.
Please I need your help with my Christian life.
I got baptized with the Holy Ghost on June30th and since then I've been experiencing God's love and touch.
But I've been unable to still get rid of some addictions from my life(I've been able to get rid of many through his help tho).
But whenever I'm enjoying a closer relationship with God, I just fall back to the sin and start all over again. Its been very saddening for me and I don't know what to do.
The addiction is pornography.
Your advise, help and all is highly welcomed.
Thank.

We do have a responsibility to God to lead sanctified lives free from the taint of sin but we will never be perfect in this life. So, let me encourage you to also give your attention to pursuing spiritual growth and production for your Lord. In doing so, you will also find the strength to more and more consistently triumph over your sinful tendencies.

But in dealing more directly with addictions, it would be wise to avoid whatever might trigger an episode and be quick to confess every failure and get back to controlling yourself. Always keep in mind that when we sin or do righteousness, it is a choice we make ourselves. We never get pushed into it by anybody. We choose. So you can live each moment free from an addiction by your own choice. But in this race, we all stumble a lot. And we only get better and better at running straight by growing spiritually.

Teenoh:
So despondent and feeling like a complete, failure in life! It's so easy to say, God cares for me and sees my abject nature, and hears my cries, but when life holds no more joys for you, you lose your job, lost a sibling, have 2 kids about to be undergraduates and no hope to sponsor them, and when most especially, you are about to loose ur dwelling place::where then, is the seed of hope, to gain grounds and grow??
I feel so let down, small and stupid. I ought to be grateful for life itself, but with nothing to show after 4 dacades, life thread, I want to just let go of!!

Hello sir. I hope that you have not let go. I'm very sorry to hear how things are with you. Life for the believer in this world is a very hard affair. It does not matter what people may see from outside, it always is a fight everyday.

Let me encourage you to hang on to your Faith and keep trusting the Lord. It may not seem like it but the Lord is intimately involved in the affairs of your life and does have a good plan for you. But you can obstruct it by getting anxious and attempting to work things out yourself. Your part is always to trust the Lord without fail and do what is right.

If you need a job and have a skill, reach out to people and look online. The Lord will reward that effort. If it is that your business is not working so well, as long as you're putting in all that you should, keep trusting the Lord to open a door and continue plugging away until He does. In other words, do what is right and sensible (within the limits of Scriptural principles) and leave the Lord to sort the rest out.

I will say a prayer for you that you may be given wisdom to handle your affairs in a manner that honors the Lord. But also, do your part by studying the Bible everyday and listening to a gifted and prepared Bible teacher so that you grow increasingly able to discern the Spirit's guidance in your life so that you can work out difficulties like this with peace in your heart.

Faybay:
Good evening everyone
I actually seek advice about what to do when u begin to doubt your salvation amongst other things.
Praying is quite difficult cuz I'm not even sure God'll hear. I've read the scriptures but I haven't gotten any thing solid.
Pls Humbledbygrace I dont know if I can send u a private message.
Thanks in advance

Hello, it's been nearly two months since you sent this so I don't know if you're still in the same place or of my answer will still be relevant.

Getting saved or born again is only the beginning of a journey. If we do not continue forward, the time does come when we become vulnerable to questions about our salvation.

But, in truth, once and as long as anyone believes in Jesus Christ, that is, believes that He is God Who became Man in order to die for our sins and rise from the dead for our justification before God, such a person is saved. Nothing can make you unsaved except your own deliberate choice to stop believing that.

But it can become hard to keep believing it when you fail to grow spiritually and bear fruit for the Lord. So, you must make it your top priority to do that.

To grow spiritually and bear fruit, you must read your Bible everyday and listen to gifted and prepared teachers of the Bible (such teachers are extremely rare, I must warn you) and do your very best to apply what you learn to your life. This is the only way.