1Sharon:



Right

Yeah.

FatherOfJesus:
You are insane because you feel threatened when people question your belief, it shows it to be a dubious belief system.
I can engage you without names, but if you come here with your atrophic brain that has impared your reasoning and start calling me names, I will make you see how useless you and your god are in a hard way.

If I don’t agree with you, you cannot call me names but if that’s what you want, I’m in bro and even your useless Yahweh that doesn’t exist wont safe you after I showcase your senility to world.

When I quote you, I don't run a line through your text to show you just how contemptible I think it is, I don't ignore your arguments and insult you, and I do respond to the issues you raise. So, on what are you basing the claim that I am threatened?

I think you have the wrong idea of me. I haven't complained about your calling me names. You probably saw me ask someone on another thread why they felt the need to insult me, but that was because we were having a conversation and there was no reason for her to insult me. You, on the other hand, have been running around Nairaland harassing Christians and not even with any kind of meaningful arguments, just with mockery. So, of course I expect you to call me names. You don't have the ability to have a reasonable conversation. All I expect you to do is to mock and insult.

The fault is with me for even engaging you. There was never any possibility of having a reasonable discussion with you. I knew that, but I engaged you anyway because I gave in to my emotions. That is a sin against my God, not against you. You deserve worse than I have given to you.

Let me explain what is happening here. For the sake of your own entertainment, you start threads and jump into threads specifically to insult and mock Christians for believing something that you don't. Now, any normal human being would be very offended by that. What exactly did Christians do to you to deserve such harassment?

Even if some Christians that you personally know have offended you in some way, is there failure a biblical mandate? That is, was it the Christian way for them to do what they did so that you are attacking something that causes people to do what those people did to you? You don't know who I am. And you don't know who the Christians that you engage with here are, so why are you mocking our faith? Does Christianity or the Bible mock or attack you in some way? Of course not.

As I have said on this thread, I have more than 2000 posts on my main account and four threads. Almost none of them targets atheism. I'm not interested in atheism like that. As an apologist, I have to understand different belief systems and philosophies so that I can protect fellow believers from them. For that reason, I do know and understand atheism quite deeply. But I don't attack it as a rule. Everyone has a right to believe whatever they want to believe or to not believe whatever they don't want to believe. So who am I to make life difficult for anybody just because they don't believe what I believe? Their beliefs are between them and God, not between me and them.

But the very nature of atheism makes it impossible for anyone who insists on living life the atheistic way to live and let live. The rise of atheism in the 20th century proved that beyond every doubt. Atheists would sooner create a police state and exterminate theism root and stem than have any kind of healthy discourse with any one other than themselves.

That is why I respect those atheists who restrain themselves. I have been on Nairaland since 2011 and have been active since 2012 with a hiatus between 2015 and 2018. In all that time, I have met different kinds of atheists on here. Very few atheists I have met are willing to have amicable discussions without insulting and mocking Christians to provoke them. But these few did exist. They're mostly gone from Nairaland now or are not active on the Religion section anymore. The rest think that they have a monopoly on intelligence or abuse, and that is why having a conversation with them is quite impossible. Of these latter, you are among some of the worst.

Why did I engage you? A momentary lapse of discipline. I like to ignore people like you even when you respond to my posts. But you are one of those that really annoy me with your arrogant posturing. This is often the case with those who just newly became atheists. They always think they just became geniuses and they become insufferable as a result. You can't talk without insulting, belittling, or mocking people you imagine are worse than you just because they are not atheists too. You have no self-control, no respect for yourself or for others, and certainly no dignity at all. One can only hope that all of that is just limited to social media because people like you can start fist fights just by opening your mouth.

So, no, I don't care if you call me names. Your calling me names is like a crazy person calling a sane person names. If the sane person gets upset, he legitimizes an illegitimate opinion. I don't care what you call me or what you feel about me. That's your business.

The problem here is just that I engaged you. That is all. If I hadn't, I would not have any guilt before God because I would not have said a word at all to you. I can fix that problem without reference to you, and I will. But your own problem will probably do far worse to you than mine could to me. You need to get over yourself and let other people be before you end up walking down a far worse path than you can even begin to imagine right now.

Cheers.

blueAgent:


You say you are a pastor-teacher?

Show me how I am wrong.

I did not write the Bible neither you,
You have no right to select Bible verses that suit your preconceived idea why leaving out other Bible verses that contradicts your idea.

You and other self acclaimed men of God are guilty of that.

Why are you running away from some Bible verses why picking some?

Why not write your own Bible.

Are you sure you are a pastor? Because as one you should correct me when am wrong rather than shy away.

What if am a thief or a prostitute and I happen to come across you, does it mean that you cannot point out my sins and correct me using God's word?

Yes I say that I am a pastor-teacher.

I just gave you two links to go and examine for my answers to your thread. I believe that they demonstrate your error. If you don't believe that they do, then you have to explain to me what you think I have failed to account for in your arguments. That is, you have to either ask clarifying questions or make counter arguments. If you don't, I can't do any better than I have done.

Of course I didn't write the Bible, nor did I claim that I did. Also I don't claim any right to cherry-pick Bible verses. So you need to explain your accusation.

I'm not sure what Bible verses you believe that I'm running away from. Which ones did you have in mind? I must also point out that it would be folly to expect that every Bible verses applies to every single Bible teaching. For example, do we use John 3:16 to teach that God created everything that exists or that He restored this creation in seven days? Of course not. John 3:16 can certainly come into play when we teach God's ex nihilo creation of all things, but that is not what itself teaches directly, is it? That is what the Bible calls "cutting straight (or rightly dividing) the Word of Truth" (2 Timothy 2:15).

I'm a pastor-teacher, not a prophet, so it is not my job to write anything new. My job is to explain or teach what has already been written by the inspiration of the Lord God Himself.

It is not my job to correct anyone who does not want correction. I told you that the Scriptures command us to only admonish divisive (or heretical) people twice and then leave them to their own devices. People have a free will. If they don't want to hear the truth, it is folly to teach it to them.

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
Proverbs 26:4 (NKJV)

6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Matthew 7:6 (NKJV)

I certainly have a duty to do the work of an evangelist just like Timothy, himself another pastor-teacher, had (2 Timothy 4:5), but even so, not everyone who needs the truth actually wants it, and we have been warned by the Lord Himself in the last passage above to make sure that the people we are giving the truth to are people who are worthy of it.

blueAgent:


I cannot remember insulting you all less when provoked by you.
Secondly you are fond of dodging questions that box you into a corner.

I really want you to debate with me,becos that's the purpose of this thread to open people's eyes to the truth of God's word and that I can achieve when you debate with me. but it seems you are afraid to challenge.

A couple of years ago I was like you, I believed in eternal Hell, immortality of the soul and all the lies our clergymen has told us, although they are also ingnorant sometimes, till God opened my eyes and I saw the truth.
Remember Jesus said you shall know the truth and it shall set you free.
I do not debate or write thread to win arguments, why will I do that, I barely have time for myself, if you observe I left nairaland especially posting written articles for months because of the stress, rather my aim is through debate and carefull analyses people see the error in their argument and I also learn more.

For us to continue in a debate we need to agree to some rules.
1. No question would be left unanswered.
2. Every bible verse must agree with each other rather than contracdict themselves.
3. We must apply logic and sense to each issue.
4. That God's word is the final opinion not man.
And many others I cannot remember now.
5. No insults.
6.

https://www.nairaland.com/6326489/understanding-facts-truth-hellfire#97334652. That's the link. You quoted my post there, so you can take a look and point out what the provocation was and whether your own response was not an insult.

What questions do you believe boxed me into a corner and how did they box me into a corner? Does it occur to you that I am not under your control, so I can choose whether or not to answer questions as I please? Does it occur to you that a question you ask might be unreasonable and therefore not worth answering? There can be more than one possible reason why someone does or doesn't do something.

I know that you want a debate, but that's not my problem. I have limited time and energy in this world and I have many responsibilities. When I come to Nairaland, I'm here for only one of those responsibilities, so I pick and choose what activities I get involved in here in keeping with my goals. I have discussed what my goals here are. And you don't qualify as one of those who want help with the truth. Even your stated reason for a debate is in order to use your assumed victory to show the readership of this thread that you are speaking the truth. In other words, you don't expect to be corrected. You're quite sure that you are right about what you are teaching. So keep believing it and teaching it. I won't try to correct you. If it turns out that you were only deceiving God's children, well then, you must bear your judgment when it finally arrives at your doorstep. If you are right, on the other hand, you can always enjoy what rewards are yours as a result. I don't partake in either. As for being afraid to challenge, suffice to say that you don't know me at all. And reverse psychology is wasted on me. The only thing that would make me discuss this matter with you is if you were asking a question or discussing a point on which you wanted better understanding. Neither is true of you. You are here as a teacher -- and a false one too. So I'm not interested.

A couple of years ago, you were better off than you are now.

Sure, "clergymen" are wrong a lot of the time. That's why I finally quit "going to church" five years ago. Couple of years after that, God very generously brought me to the pastor-teacher who opened the Scriptures up to me. I have not ceased to be grateful for that. That is why I'm here to offer the same kindness that God showed to me through His obedient son.

You should probably read the things you write after you write them. You can't both not debate or write threads to win arguments and also expect to use arguments to show people how they are wrong. It is either you debate to win and show people that they are wrong or you debate without caring whether you win or show people that they are wrong. So you are quite mistaken about your own motives. Perhaps you are not being completely honest with your own self -- just as I told you in the beginning.

As I have said several times now, it is impossible for you and me to debate any matter on this platform productively, so I will not debate with you. To demonstrate, let us look at your rules, shall we?

Rule #1: First of all, if I agreed, I would be responsible to answer even unreasonable questions. Second, even if I were willing to answer unreasonable questions, the very nature of the questions will make any answer I give unacceptable to you unless the answer is the one that you hoped to force me to give. This is why you have accused me of leaving a lot of questions unanswered on your other thread.

Rule #2 : Of course the whole Bible must agree, but some passages are really not directly connected with each other, and some passages do say opposite things that other passages reconcile. For example, I have pointed out that John 3:16 and Genesis 1 are not directly connected. For another example, the Scriptures say in Proverbs 26:4 that you are not to answer a fool according to his folly, but the very next verse tells you to do so. The only reason that both things can be true is because of passages like Acts 5:1-13. Such passages teach that sometimes you answer a fool so that others can be corrected. Otherwise, you don't. This is what "rightly dividing (or cutting straight) the word of truth" means: connecting the right Scriptures to each other in the right ways. That is what the gift of pastor-teaching makes anybody able to do after they have been taught the Scriptures.

Rule #3: I certainly hope so, but biblical reasoning sometimes makes human logic look silly. That is one reason that the Bible is called the Wisdom of God (Luke 11:49; Proverbs 2:6) or the Mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). So, whereas I always try to be reasonable in argument, I don't necessarily subscribe to human logical paradigms especially when discussing the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 3:18-20).

Rule #4: Of course God's Word ought to be the final authority (I don't consider His Word an opinion), but whether or not we agree on what that means is not something this rule actually ensures. Rather, it is a bogus statement when two people don't agree on what constitutes God's Word. You might think (and I think that you do) that your interpretation of the Bible is God's Word, whereas I believe that the actual text of the Bible is God's Word. Then we have a problem.

Rule #5: Of course, but you just said that you don't insult without provocation. It remains to be seen what you consider provocation and what you think an insult is.

In short, as I have said before, believe what you will. I came on this thread to advise you not to keep starting debates over things that you believe, since doing so is really a way to mislead fellow believers in Jesus Christ. about the truth. If you think that what you believe is true, then don't keep starting debates over it. Just carry on with it. Offer it as an answer whenever people ask questions or want to discuss the point. Evangelizing it as aggressively as you're doing might be showing that you know deep inside of you that it is false but each new "victory" you think you have in a debate makes you think that you are right and hardens your heart some more against the truth. If in doing this you end up misleading children of God, it would be better for you that you had a heavy millstone tied around your neck and you were drowned in the sea than that God judged you for it.

1 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.
Luke 17:1-3a (NIV)

17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.
1 Corinthians 3:17 (NIV)

Please feel free to ignore me. What you do is entirely your business. Both reward and consequence are yours to worry about, not mine. So I am not going to engage you again unless the spiritual health of fellow believers on this platform requires it of me.

PearlFid:
thank you very much, I really do appreciate

You're quite welcome.

StacyO:
Over the years, young men and women venture into the reputable business called being a "pastor".
Fast forward to this 21st century,everyone wants to be a notable member in the church.
Almost every one wants to build a church of their own in order to extort people of their money,all in the name of tithe and offering.


They commit all manner of atrocities such as
1) Sleeping with brethrens in the church
2) Performing fake miracles
3) Using members for ritual purposes (either to bring more members to the church or gather more wealth)
4) Use the tithe paid by members to purchase private jets while the poor church goers still wallow in poverty.

And so on and so forth.





But,did the bible ever talk about Christians worshipping God inside the four corners of a building.

Why then do people carry church going like it's some form of sacred and must do thing??









Why must we go to church to give a pastor our hard earned sweat,when we can give same to those who truly need it.
Do you even notice that a pastor only bless you when you pay offering?? OR unless you request for a special prayer session.






Is it insensitive if someone decides to worship God in their heart, instead of going to a building (mainly to show off your new dress).
?


Pastors and brethren in the house,why is church going so important to a Christian??



I need honest answers please
Ignore any irrelevant comment you see down below

cc seun lalasticlala

Hi there.

Excellent questions there. Here is what the Bible says:

24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
Hebrews 10:24-25 (NKJV)

Obviously, from the above, "assembling" with other believers is crucial. Without it, we run the risk of failing as Christians. After all, we are members of one Body and our individual unique gifts are meant to be used to build each other up in the truth. So, seeking to run this race alone is folly.

But you make a very good point about meeting in a building especially under the authority of unscrupulous men who have no respect for the God that they claim to serve. About meeting together in a building, this is what the Bible says:

21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:21-24 (NKJV)

20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
Matthew 18:20 (NKJV)

So, there are no rules about where we must gather. I would even venture to say that given two thousand years' worth historical precedents, it seems that making a big deal of having a dedicated place of worship is apt to do more harm than good. The important thing about Christian fellowship is that those who gather all share a common faith in Jesus Christ and are there to encourage each other in the truth by having a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher teach the Scriptures to the others and these others use their various individual unique spiritual gifts to help one another to apply and develop these things that they learn from their pastor-teacher. That is to say that the gathering of believers is about the truth of the Scriptures.

15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
1 Timothy 3:15 (NKJV)

As Paul says in this passage above, the Church is the pillar and ground (or foundation) of the truth. It is all about the truth, not about entertainment or motivational speaking. It exists as the means by which believers are grounded in and established in the truth, so that they can in turn do the same for other believers.

11 So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.
Ephesians 4:11-16 (NIV)

As you should be able to see, this job of encouraging and building each other up in the truth does not need a building to occur. Wherever there is a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher, only one other believer in Jesus Christ is required for that to be a church.

As for the wickedness and hypocrisy of many of those who claim to be pastors, that is not strange. The Lord Jesus Himself warned us that such things would happen. There have always been false prophets and false teachers. They exist to test the hearts of those who hear the Gospel.

1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him.
Deuteronomy 13:1-4 (NIV)

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them —bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Peter 2:1 (NIV)

11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
Matthew 24:11 (NIV)

Even though the Lord Jesus was prophesying about the Tribulation in the last passage above, what He said is true for all time. You can compare that with the following

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Matthew 7:15-20 (NIV)

8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.
John 10:8 (NIV)

It is important to keep in mind that even when we evaluate visible behavior, we can think that false teachers and prophets are really true ones. The correct way to evaluate is to compare what they say to the Scriptures in order to know whether they are faithful to the Bible:

33 “Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. 34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. 35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.
Matthew 12:33-35 (NIV)

Satan masquerades as an angel of light, so why would it be surprising if his messengers masquerade as messengers of light as well? Think of the Lord's opposition to the Pharisees and scribes of His day. By the conduct of the latter, it was thought that they were God's true messengers, but in fact, they were blind haters of God. That is often the case. Those who are truly sent by God are not as dramatic and conspicuous as such people tend to be. But they are not impossible to find either. If anyone really wants to learn God's truth and how to walk productively with Him, they will be given pastor-teachers to show them how:

6 God sets the lonely in families,
he leads out the prisoners with singing;
but the rebellious live in a sun-scorched land.
Psalms 68:6 (NIV)

A true pastor-teacher will be true to what the Bible actually says.

In short, you are right that many of the people out there calling themselves messengers of God are liars and thieves. And the answer to your question is that we are not commanded to meet only in dedicated buildings -- in fact, we are not commanded to meet at any particular place at all. Church is defined completely by the spiritual condition of the people meeting and the purpose of their meeting -- wherever believers in Jesus Christ gather to learn the truth through the ministrations or services of a gifted and prepared pastor-teacher is where the Church is. But we are commanded to meet together, so it would not be wise to try to go it alone.

Cheers.

PearlFid:
please I need a mentor to help me understand the Bible.

Hi there.

There is an excellent pastor-teacher at https://ichthys.com. He is the one who trained me and is supporting my preparation as a pastor-teacher. His name is Professor Robert Luginbill. There is another one too at www.bibleacademyonline.com whose name is Pastor-Teacher Curtis Omo. Both mean are excellent pastor-teachers. They will help you understand the Bible as a whole.

You can look at my posts at https://nairaland.com/ihedinobi3/posts or you could look at my threads at https://nairaland.com/ihedinobi3 to have some idea whether their teaching is what you are looking for. What I teach here on Nairaland is what I learned from Ichthys.

I recommend that you keep an open Bible close because you'll find very much in your studies under either ministry that will surprise you. The main difference between the two ministries is that Ichthys is a text-based ministry while Bible Academy is a video-based one. You will find some audios on Ichthys and there is an ongoing project to turn all the major studies there into mp3 format, but it is essentially a text-based ministry. Likewise, you will find some works in text on Bible Academy, but it is really a video-based ministry.

Cheers.

blueAgent:


Now you are digressing from me, saying God will strike you to it been a conditional statement.

Am sure someone showed you the difference.
If you had sense you will know what is a warning and what is alright curse.

I have never claimed anything, the fact is I do not want to be a pastor or prophet.
I only used them as examples, before you start insinuating that I claimed to be one, you have habit of lieing.

Secondly if you are smart or had any sense you would have aleast pick one point in the article and show me why am wrong, they say 2 wrongs cannot make a right.

You cannot disprove me, but your pride and naivety would not allow me and my thread to be.

Why would I take you serious?
For over 6months am still waiting for your response on my other thread where you said the soul cannot die when I proved with over 6 verses that it can die.

Till date you have not shown me any proof to the contrary.

Are you not ashamed to come online to exhibit your level of ignorance?

I still insist that you disprove this article, show people why am a false teacher.
It's simple.
E.g Hell is existing now, you give bible verses to support your claim.
2. Hell will last for eternity, you give Bible verse to support your claim.


Is that too hard for Mr Know all?

Let me try to explain this again to you.

I'm a pastor-teacher. Therefore, it is always my joy to explain Scriptures to anyone who wishes to understand them. I rejoice in biblical questions. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here on Nairaland, since this platform is really an unpleasant place to be most of the time; at least, for me it is. So I would be happy to answer your questions. The reason that I haven't is that I have debated with you before. You were very insulting and very unreasonable then. Why would I want to repeat the experience? Even just mentioning to you that we have had this discussion before was reason enough for you to start hurling insults at me.

You clearly are here to win debates. I am not. I am here to offer help to understand the Bible, if anyone is willing to accept my help. If they are not, I keep my understanding to myself. The times when I make an exception and appear to go on the offensive are those times when unscrupulous clout-chasing men teach obvious lies to cause other believers to stumble. I didn't even attack you here as I could have, although I think of you as one of such men. Rather, I offered you a gentle reminder that you have discussed these things before and failed to give them proper attention. I warned you to be careful of teaching errors reminding you of the consequences of misleading believers in Jesus Christ. That's all.

If you were really serious about finding out what my arguments against your position are, you would have found them by now. I already gave you links that would have eventually led you to them. I will give you the actual links to them now, but that's all I will do. I can't copypaste them without having my post tagged and my account banned. That was why my post with my main account got hidden and why I'm responding with my other account.

Now, I know you. I am confident that this will only give you more reason to abuse me. If you do, this will be the last olive branch that I'm extending to you. I am very very good at mockery. If I consider it good for other believers, I will hound you wherever I find you teaching lies again and show you how I can help you embarrass yourself. I make a point of avoiding insolence, although I know that some things I say are considered insulting (like calling you a wannabe pastor-teacher who is making wild and foolish claims about hell), but even when I do, those things I say are very deliberate and put in a way that is an accusation rather than a mere insult. I don't believe that you are a true pastor-teacher, for example. I'm not even sure that you're a believer. But I know that what you did here is produce a teaching, therefore you are acting like you are a pastor-teacher. Your teaching includes claims about hell that even a rudimentary understanding of the Bible will easily show are wrong, therefore your production of those claims is wild and reckless. The "foolish" bit is because of your stubborn assumption that you are right and your declaration that disagreement with you is error even though the Bible is obvious in its declaration of your error.

I may end this conversation at this point after providing the link. Respond as you please. Feel free to ignore everything I have just said and insult me. I will handle it as it pleases me to do. Here are the links now:

https://www.nairaland.com/5520177/man-satan-immortality/2#84179599

https://www.nairaland.com/5520177/man-satan-immortality/2#84179624

I hope for your good. I hope that you will not end up bringing judgment upon yourself. I hope that rather than the condemnation of the destroyers of God's Church you will qualify for the blessing and peace of those who work hard to minister life to the children of God. I hope that this is your own hope too.

madegreatbygrace:


It makes a whole lot of difference to me; everything in the Bible does. It's one thing to share a view, it's another to make a categorical statement, without basis or proofs.

We must be careful of the little foxes and leaven- a situation where we see some things as important and some as not important. We may finally arrive at that point where everything doesn't make a difference. The goodness of God doesn't make a difference, new creation reality doesn't make a difference, even salvation through faith in Christ Jesus may eventually not make any difference.

When it comes to the writer of Hebrews, I have my views about it. I used to think it was Paul, but now I believe he wasn't the writer. Evidence?

1. No introduction. There was a way Paul would always declare his authorship of an Epistle in the Bible......

“Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬


“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

“Paul and Timothy, bondservants of Jesus Christ, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

This trend is customary of Paul, and he was consistent with this practice in all of his epistles.
If the book of Hebrews was an exceptional case, then there should be a proof to support that.


2. The writing style used by the writer of Hebrews is totally different from that found in Paul's epistles.

3. Lastly, let's consider this verse in the book of Hebrews:


“how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:3‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The writer States here that the doctrine of salvation was confirmed to them by those who heard Christ. But let's examine the words of Paul,


“But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭1:11-12‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

What's he saying here ?

He didn't receive the Gospel from man, so it couldn't have been confirmed to him by those who heard Christ. The confirmation is the revelation he received from Jesus Christ. He heard it directly from Christ. The writer of Hebrews didn't hear it directly from Christ, but from men. On this basis, Paul is not the writer of Hebrew.

But then, I may be wrong and I may be right. Nevertheless, I've presented what I believe are strong arguments.

So if anyone is posting, let such come up with statements backed by scriptures and persuasive reasonings.

Imagine someone saying Judas and Gehazi we're saved simply because they followed Christ and a servant of God respectively. Such submission is not only misleading, it's also heretic. It means any man that follows a man of God is automatically saved!

For what it is worth, I have tried to impress on you that being quarrelsome is something that I strongly discourage. I completely embrace zeal for the Truth. But I don't believe that the Truth is only whatever you insist that it is. So, if you insist on having everything your way, then I will certainly desist from speaking with you to avoid a quarrel.

1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
Romans 14:1 (NKJV)

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
Galatians 5:14-15 (NKJV)

3 [endeavor] to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Ephesians 4:3 (NKJV)

If you believe that Judas and Gehazi were saved, that may be true, but I don't see how believing that they weren't is any kind of heresy. If you think that believing just anything erroneous about the Bible is heresy, then you better be prepared to label yourself a heretic as well. We are not perfect. We don't always get it right. So, wisdom is to cut each other some slack. There are things that we ought not to get wrong, because if we get them wrong, they attack our faith in Christ, but there are other things which, while being important since they are part of God's Truth, are not as critical to our faith as other things. It is because such things exist that Paul said,

15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.
Philippians 3:15 (NKJV)

Even the mature among us can and do disagree on all manner of things, although they will not disagree on the most important things. That is not a problem. We can bear each other and walk together regardless. It is only those who fancy themselves to be somehow better than everybody who cannot bear with the failures and weaknesses of others:

3 Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
Philippians 2:3 (NKJV)

Not everything is worthy of debate and such "pushback." I see no bearing that the faith status of Judas and Gehazi has on anybody's faith, especially given Galatians 6:4. If they were saved, what really is that to you? If they weren't, what is it to you? Does it encourage you to be saved or not? It is certainly true that a skillful pastor-teacher can draw value for fellow believers out of a solid understanding of their stories in the Bible, but even so, why does anything about them matter enough to determine who is being heretical and who isn't?

Again, let me say that I enjoy discussing the Scriptures. I don't mind even debating positions on the Scriptures. But when someone just wants to show off how much better they are at the Scriptures than others, that is apt to lead to quarrels. So, if you want to encourage me and others on this thread with your own understanding of the Bible, by all means, write up what you have learned and let those who can engage you productively do so. But if all you're going to do is try to force your own way of seeing Scriptures down everybody's throat, beware that you do not bite and devour your own brothers in the Truth.

Regarding your arguments above,

1. The most important thing in the Bible is that we must believe in Jesus Christ, God Who became Man in order to die for our sins and who was raised from the dead for our justification, in order to be saved. Fact is, it doesn't matter what else you believe in the Bible if you don't believe this specific thing. You could believe that angels exist, just as the Bible says that they do, or that God created the world, or that Judas and Gehazi were saved, and it wouldn't do you one small whit of good. But if you believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, even if you knew nothing else in the Bible, you have eternal life. That goes to show that there are varying degrees of importance to the doctrines of the Bible.

Spiritual maturity cannot be gained and increased without giving careful attention to everything that the Bible teaches in its entirety. So, the fact that some doctrines are more important than the other does not mean that we ought to dispense with anything at all that the Bible talks about. If God says anything (and, of course, we believe that everything in the Bible is something that God says), then that thing is important for us to know. But it is only by believing the things that are most critical first that we establish a foundation on which to properly build all the other things that the Bible has to teach.

So, making an issue of less important things especially where an important issue is at stake is only going to cost the believers involved spiritually. It is unwise, very unwise indeed.

2. About the authorship of Hebrews, as I said, I don't believe that that is something worth a lot of trouble, but I do believe that it important. I have always thought that Paul wrote Hebrews. Along the way, I saw arguments to the contrary as well as arguments for an agnostic position. I am convinced now that it was really Paul who wrote that letter because

a) he had trouble with Jewish believers, especially the church in Jerusalem (Acts 21:20-25), so it would have unnecessarily emotionally charged the reception of the letter if he identified himself as the writer;

b) I find it very hard to see how differently the writer writes here than in any of Paul's other letters - Paul tended to write long, dense letters, and Hebrews is just the same;

c) in Hebrews 2:3, Paul is being typical in avoiding making something of himself or his own revelations here (cf. 2 Corinthians 12:1-5), but even so "confirmed to us by those who heard Him" does not by any means preclude the idea that the writer is also one of "those who heard Him" - anyone who teaches well will tell you that their own teachings don't seem like their own work, what they say or write blesses them too, as if it came from some external source.

3. I know no compelling reason really to think that Gehazi was not saved, although I've never really thought about him. I think that he was. He sinned, it is true, but what believer doesn't? The Lord punished him for it with leprosy, it is true, but what believer does not suffer for sinning against the Lord? What I don't see is any evidence that he never believed or that he stopped believing in the God of his master Elisha.

As for Judas, the Lord Jesus Himself declared that he wasn't saved at all.

70 Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”
John 6:70 (NKJV)

Cheers, my friend.

MaxInDHouse:


Guy go out there and make disciples, teach them how to become dedicated believers who are fully competent and completely equipped to stand out with their faith.
My Bible student last month almost beat up his neighbour had been i didn't step in it would have turned to a serious police case!
We visited him and his two sons quickly ran to pick their Bible study aids as usual then we heard a loud arguement in the yard only to find my student prepared to fight his neighbour!
It's was later i discovered that the neighbour was the one calling my students boys to disturb them from studying the Bible with us.
My student said

"This useless man has a family and none of his children is worth emulating, i'm battling vigorously to see that my own children study the Bible and become responsible and well meaning youths like JWs but this hopeless idiot always try to hinder my own children not to become Godly. Am i their father or him?"

That's the power of result! Go and tell my Bible student that JWs are teaching heresy now, what he will tell you is "if it's the heresy that's making them the best youths around, then i'll go for their heresy" James 2:18-26

When I first noticed you (I understand that you are Maximus69) on Nairaland, I offered you an olive branch, just as I just did with DappaD. I was willing to discuss with you reasonably and respectfully. It was not long after doing that that you degenerated into the same abusive, annoying, unreasonable interlocutor that your fellow JWs on this platform are. So I quit talking to you.

I have spoken with you again only when it took my fancy or when it seemed like there might be some spiritual benefit in doing so. Why you think that I actually want to have a conversation with you beats me. You clearly are not a reasonable person or a respectful one, so why do you think that I want to have a cantankerous exchange with you?

I already told you that this thread is out there, so you're wasting your time telling me to "go out there." You are crossing land and sea to make converts? Great! That's your own business. If you make them sons of hell like yourself, then that's also your problem. I have no desire to be like you. I am here on Nairaland to encourage others who actually believe and respect the Bible. I do that too in my daily life. I am not looking for disciples of my own. If anyone is pleased to walk with me as I walk with the Lord, I walk with them too. That's my modus operandi.

I have answered you in case my deliberate refusal to engage you has been a puzzle to you. It really is deliberate. I don't need the people I talk with here on Nairaland to like me or even agree with me. I just need them to be civil and decent. You don't know how to be either, any more than your student appears to from your story (probably proves that he is totally your student).

paxonel:
let me put it straight that this statement is like a parable(figurative language) and here is the meaning :
The day of the Lord represent the day of death for everyone which is the second coming of Christ.
Everyone have their different day when they will die therefore the day of Lord is different for everyone so it's not like there is a particular day set aside as the day of the Lord.
When anyone dies, that is the day Jesus returns or comes to judge that person. Hebrews 6:27
After that, life continues for those who didn't die,Therefore there is no end.

The day of the Lord comes like a thief that comes in the night without warning, that means death comes without warning.
Infact, the day we will die we will not be aware of what hit us.
That day, heaven and earth will pass away : that means we will not sense this clouds or heavens anymore, it will be as if the element of the clouds has melted or burnt with fervent heat (according to that scripture).
But in the real sense, there is no heat, no fire, it will just be end of life for the individual, that's all.
So, understand that it's a parable and it is not in anyway referring to end of the world if you read it with the proper interpretation.
yes! there is a promise of new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells, but that new heavens and new earth is an abstract entity(not what we perceive or observed with our five senses like a real world). This abstract entity called the kingdom of God dwells in us.(all believers)
Luke 17:20-21
So, there is nothing like another world called heaven.
Heaven is already here with us.
We represent the kingdom of God here on this earth where there is righteousness.
And what is that righteousness?
It is righteousness of God through Christ.
Not by our works
Not that we were good in the first place.
It's a gift,
So heaven is a gift.

I believe that you are violently wrong about everything that you just said.

The Day of the Lord is very obviously no metaphor (I believe that that is the word you wanted, not "parable" ).

1 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—
“The LORD is one,”
And His name one.
Zechariah 14:1-9 (NKJV)

There are far more passages like the above than I can even begin to quote here. Why on earth should anyone believe that it is a metaphor? Where does the Bible say that it is a metaphor? It sounds entirely like something you made up all by yourself when you say that.

Certainly, when we die, we face the consequences of our ultimate choice to believe in God's Messiah or to reject Him. But I don't see where in the Bible it says that the day of the Lord is when anybody dies. That seems to be your own invention. I also don't see where it says that we are judged when we die. The Bible seems clear that the Church will be evaluated for her rewards only at the Second Advent (1 John 2:28; Matthew 24:45-51, cf. Matthew 25:14-30), the Millennial believers also evaluated for theirs at the end of the Millennium (Matthew 25:31-40) and all unbelievers judged after this latter (Matthew 25:41-46; Revelation 20:11-15).

Also, I think that your claim that death comes without warning is easily proven false. Those who are about to be executed know that they are going to die. Many who are about to be murdered know that they are going to die. There are more than enough suicides to show that you are quite wrong too. The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night, yes, but Paul goes on to say that this is for unbelievers who don't know or care what God says and believers who are being careless about their watch:

2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:2-6 (NKJV)

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!
Matthew 24:32-33 (NKJV)

It seems to me then that you are the one who needs to know that this is no metaphor at all and that the Bible really means what it says. Your interpretation is false in a very dangerous way.

As for the Kingdom of God being within, this is what the passage you are quoting says:

20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
Luke 17:20-21 (NIV)

That is, the Kingdom of God is already in the world, not that it is within anybody. The Kingdom of God is in the world because believers in Jesus Christ are in the world and they are citizens of that kingdom (Philippians 3:20). This does not mean that there is no Heaven. I can't even understand how anyone could think it means that. Nobody thinks that there is no nation called the United States of America just because there is an embassy in Abuja called the United States Embassy/Consulate. That would be absurd. It would be just as absurd to claim that there is no nation called Canada just because Canadians are sprinkled all over Africa, for another example. Likewise, there is no reason to say that there is no Heaven just because there are Christians in the world. In fact, the Bible says this:

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation.
Hebrews 9:11 (NIV)

Splinz:

I understand.

However, we are also enjoined to, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" II Timothy 2:15.

So it's not enough to just quote the Bible. Are you quoting it rightly?



Are you sure Elijah did not die? Can you prove it? After the "chariot of fire" incident, do you know where Elijah was taken to?

Be careful not to make assumptions. PROVE IT!

Whilst it is true that Elijah was indeed taken into heaven. The question is: WHICH HEAVEN?

Throughout the Bible, the word “heaven” is used to describe three locations: First, there is the atmosphere that envelops the earth; this is the first heaven. Next, the vast regions of outer space are collectively referred to as “heaven,” or “the heavens” (Psalms 115:16); this is the second heaven. Finally, the location of God’s throne is specifically called “the third heaven” by Paul (II Cor. 12:2).

Since no human being has ever ascended into the third-heaven - God's throne, even David is not in heaven (John 3:13, Acts 2:34), only two possibilities remain for Elijah;

1. Outer space

2. The atmosphere or clouds (1 Thes. 4:17)

We also know for a fact that human beings can't breath in space, so then, we are left with the ATMOSPHERE OR CLOUDS as the only option for Elijah. This is the only logical conclusion considering the facts.

Elijah was indeed taken into the atmosphere or clouds, supernaturally. Actually, he was transported to another location on earth, where he lived the remainder of his days in accordance with the Scripture. Also note, clouds, as mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17, are only a few miles above the earth. In fact, flying an airplane is in a sense, going to heaven.

Further proof that Elijah was transported to another location is this. Few years after he was taken away, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, king of Judah, rebuking him for his evil ways (II Chron. 21:12). Of course, this can only happen on Earth, not in heaven!

Regards.

Hey there.

I think that you have ignored a few other options in your analysis.

It is true that the Bible speaks of three heavens: the twin heavens of the atmosphere and outer space and the third Heaven which is not a part of this creation and where God dwells, but there is at least one other possibility besides Elijah being taken to some one of the twin heavens rather than to the third Heaven.

Man is a soul that is made up of a spirit and a body as Genesis 2:7 teaches:

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

When we die, obviously, our spirits are removed from our bodies:

7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NKJV)

How does the Bible refer to the body when it is separated from the spirit that inhabits it? How does the Bible refer to the spirit when it is separated from the house that once covered it?

5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (NKJV)

36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption
Acts 13:36 (NKJV)

These are two of a vast number of Scriptures where the body of a human being is spoken of by the Bible as if it were the whole person to whom it referred.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
16 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
1 Samuel 28:12-19 (NKJV)

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Matthew 17:3 (NKJV)

These are two other Scriptures that demonstrate that the Bible also considers the spirits of human beings as if they were the whole person.

That is to say that the Bible thinks of the human person as being a spirit that belongs to a unique body of its own. As such, it treats the "empty house," so to speak, as if it were the same as its owner, the spirit. So, when the Bible says that Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven, it doesn't have to be understood as Elijah's spirit going into heaven. It can also be understood as Elijah's body going into heaven.

When we compare this interpretation to Jude 1:9, it seems to me to make perfect sense, since the same thing seems to be what is happening with Moses's body. Both bodies were taken to the Third Heaven for preservation since both saints are meant to be brought back to life for the Tribulation.

15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
Deuteronomy 18:15 (NKJV)

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
Malachi 4:5 (NKJV)

It is true that the prophecy in the first passage above was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 3:22-26), but that does not mean that it is limited to the Lord Jesus Christ. Besides the Lord Jesus Christ, there is only one other prophet that is just like Moses to whom the nation of Israel will listen: Moses himself, which is why there is this bit of Scripture in the Bible as well:

30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luke 9:30-31 (NKJV)

Apart from the fact that this Transfiguration was a preview of the Second Advent, which throws into sharp relief the association of Moses and Elijah with it, there is also the fact that they were discussing the upcoming Cross with Jesus Christ on which the Millennium is based. Consider, for example, that the whole story in Revelation 5 is that only because the Lamb had been slain and had thus purchased for God men from every tribe and tongue and nation etc did He have the right to take the scroll and open it to commence the Tribulation at the end of which the Kingdom of Heaven would reclaim the earth from Satan and his kingdom of darkness.

Likewise, Malachi 4:5 speaks of Elijah's role in the Tribulation too, but we know that the Lord Jesus said that John was Elijah too. He was in the sense of one who had a similar ministry to what Elijah would have during the Tribulation:

11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
Matthew 17:11-13 (NKJV)

So, both these men still have work to do here on earth. For this reason, it makes sense that the Lord would be pleased to preserve their bodies in the Third Heaven until it is time for Him to send them back to finish their task as the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

To be clear, this does not violate 1 Corinthians 15:50, because the bodies in question are not doing any inheriting of any sort. They are merely being preserved.

Whereas I cannot speak for your interlocutor about this next point, I think that it should be clear that it is false to say that Enoch, Moses, or Elijah was in the third Heaven just because of the unusual nature of their departure from the earth. They were not, not until the Lord Jesus took all Old Testament saints to Heaven with Him after He rose from the dead. The passage that you referenced is quoted below:

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
John 3:13 (NKJV)

Clearly, it only said that no one had ever ascended to Heaven at the time of the Lord's speaking, not that no one ever would. No human being was allowed into the Third Heaven before Jesus Christ went to the Cross and paid the price for all human sin. That was why every Old Testament believer was taken to Paradise in Sheol until Jesus died on the Cross. Although it was a place of delight where they fellowshipped with God too, it was not "home" for them. That is why the Bible called them "prisoners" in Isaiah 14:17, Job 3:18, Psalm 68:18, and Ephesians 4:8. They had to wait until the Lord Jesus paid the price for their release, and after He did, they went to the Third Heaven with Him, which is why later on, Paul spoke this through the Spirit:

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect
Hebrews 12:22-23 (NKJV)

Then John spoke of the martyred saints who are in Heaven before the Great Persecution too in Revelation 6:9. So, it is pretty well documented in the Bible both that before the Cross, there was no human being in the Third Heaven, and that after the Cross, all Old Testament believers and every New Testament believer that dies are all in the Third Heaven.

This ought to be no obstacle then to accepting the clear testimony of the Scriptures about Enoch's translation.

The argument that you made that because humans cannot breathe outside the earth's atmosphere Elijah must not have gone beyond the atmosphere then can be seen not to have taken into full account the possibility that he had been separated from his body, so that breathing was no longer any kind of issue for him. His spirit was taken to Paradise while his body was taken to the Third Heaven.

The other argument that Elijah wrote some letter after the whirlwind and chariots of fire incident is also pure speculation, from where I stand. There doesn't seem to me to be a single reason why we should think that it must be the same Elijah of whom the Bible speaks in that passage. When we take into account everything else that I have just said above, it seems to me that the already speculative argument completely collapses. It can't be the same Elijah since he was not even on the Earth anymore to be writing a letter. That is to say this argument is not necessary at all to explain Elijah's disappearance when everything else in the Bible is considered. When we consider it, it distorts everything else that the Bible teaches.

twoMcfemad:


Thanks greatly!

You're quite welcome.

paxonel:
The belief of end of the world comes from colonial mentality. The truth is, the moment you die that's the end of your world, life continues after that. There is no place in the bible that suggest that this world will have a dramatic end . But rather,

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

What is the field represent in this parable?
The field represent this world. Matthew 13:38

So, this world will never end.
A sensible reader will put these words together and think, and understand.

When any pastor today come to tell you that this world will have a dramatic end, he is not talking from the spirit of God, he is only assuming things away from scriptures.

Here's what I read in the Bible:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:10-13 (NKJV)

​1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:1 (NKJV)

So I believe that you are quite desperately wrong about this.

Of course the Bible teaches that there will be a new heaven and a new earth, and that seems to me to fully fulfill any expectation that the earth will last forever. It will, just not as this corrupt one that we are currently living in. This one will be replaced with a new, eternal one where there is no unrighteousness of any sort, just as the passages above clearly say.

I'll also point out that "forever" in the Bible sometimes means "until the end of time" not until eternity. So, we know, for example, that when the Lord Jesus returns to reign over the whole Earth from Jerusalem, His rule will continue until the end of time. Then He will destroy the whole universe, resurrect and reward the Millennial believers and judge all unbelievers of human history and consign them to the Lake of Fire. After that, He will create a new universe, bigger and infinitely better than this one, full of light (with no darkness at all) and righteousness.

Then, as the Bible teaches, He will give the Kingdom over to the Father.

24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (NKJV)

johnw47:



God can make exceptions to the general rules
many others will not be tasting death also:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Php 3:20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 
Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

^^ we shall be like Him when He appears, changed from mortal to immortal
death has nothing to do with it, but life has

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

^^ we which are alive are changed and caughtup to the Lord, we who are alive don't die



Heb_11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Thank you for sparing me the need to respond. Your answer is spot-on.

I can see the gymnastics that your interlocutor is pulling too, but I have come to associate him with a hardhearted arrogant and violent handling of the Scriptures, so it doesn't surprise me, and it is why I prefer to have nothing to do with him on this space (or anywhere else, in fact), if I can help it. None of us is perfect, and even the very best pastor-teachers are bound to get a few things wrong, but there is a difference of day and night between making mistakes because of the sin nature and wilful disobedience and rebellion.

Regarding the above, there really is nothing unclear about this position. I won't presume to give you advice, but it seems to me like a good policy to stay away from people who twist the Scriptures and lie about obvious things:

9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Titus 3:9-11 (NKJV)

Debates are intellectually satisfying, but in many cases indeed they do very little spiritual good. At least, the Bible seems to me to say so (see above) and I have found that it is true in my own experience. Sometimes, it is necessary to resist a fool so that an example may be made of him for the sake of others, but in general, it is best to simply leave fools to their folly so that we are not caught in the same trap as them.

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Proverbs 26:4-5 (NKJV)

I do get involved in discussions and debates both here on Nairaland and elsewhere in order to examine what I believe and to help others see the truth that the Bible teaches, if they are willing to treat with me. So, I'm not saying that all debates are wrong, but it seems prudent to me to be discriminatory in our choice of debates to get involved in.

Cheers.

Darnley:


Please,can you prove to me how the old testament character become a living example for the church?
whatsoever,that happen in the old is a shadow of the new testament.Jesus is the first and type of the living resurrection of the church.No human being including Enoch have a glorified body like that of Jesus to ascend to heaven.

Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

I already answered you with my main ministry account, but for some reason the mods aren't responding to my emails to untag my post and unban my account. So I'm hoping that this one does not suffer the same fate. My answer right now may be slightly different though, since it is not easy for me to repeat things the exact same way.

As you said, Old Testament things like "festival(s) or . . . new moon(s) or sabbaths . . . are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Colossians 2:16 NKJV). That is, they were types of Christ and the Work that He would later do through His Cross. So, this is an established principle in the Bible. Consider the following too as another example:

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:14 (NKJV)

So typology is an established biblical principle. But we should consider what a type is according to the Bible's usage of the term.

A type is an illustration or a demonstration of something rather than the actual thing itself. So, for example, Adam is most definitely not Christ, but he was the progenitor of the human race, so in that sense, he illustrates Christ as the head and origin of a new human race, which is the point of Romans 5:14 above. Using the other example in the Colossians passage above, a festivals, new moons, sabbaths and the like were certainly not Christ, but each of them demonstrated in some way what Christ actually is. Among these examples, the Sabbath was a day set aside for the cessation of human effort. The point was in order to remind the Hebrews that it was really God Who gave everything, not the effort that they put in. This is why, for example, the Lord promised them that during the Sabbath year, He Himself would provide all that they would eat, so that they would not have to work at all.

20 ‘And if you say, “What shall we eat in the seventh year, since we shall not sow nor gather in our produce?” 21 Then I will command My blessing on you in the sixth year, and it will bring forth produce enough for three years. 22 And you shall sow in the eighth year, and eat old produce until the ninth year; until its produce comes in, you shall eat of the old harvest.
Leviticus 25:20-22 (NKJV) (Compare Exodus 16:29)

This is a lesson in humility. Because human beings were created with a natural drive to work, we easily forget that whatever we have is not really the result of our hard work, rather it is a gift of God and our work is merely obedience and gracious opportunity given to us by the Lord to share in His "labor" (compare 1 Corinthians 15:10; Philippians 3:10). This is why the Sabbath was instituted to refocus us on God's Sufficiency to provide for us. As such, the Sabbath is an illustration of Christ as God's Provision for Eternal Life for us. In Christ, we have all that we need to live (Romans 8:32; 2 Peter 1:3). This is why all we need to be saved is faith in Him with no work of any sort added to it (Ephesians 2:8-9). This is how Sabbath is a type of Christ. Note that "type" and "shadow" mean the same thing biblically.

The important lesson here is that, biblically, a type of something is not the thing itself. So, just as the seventh day is not Christ and Adam is not Christ, Enoch's translation is not the same as the living resurrection. These are all graphic demonstrations of the real thing itself, just as a model airplane is only a model of the real thing rather than the real thing itself (arguing that both are the same tech or machine is beside the point, since the issue is that one functions in a way that illuminates how the other one functions too without being the same thing as the other one; no one has ever travelled in a toy model plane before, for example).

Another important lesson here is that everything in the Old Testament was pointing to the New. So, of course Enoch could be a type of the saints who will be resurrected while still alive and it wouldn't in any way violate the Scriptures. Rather, it would confirm the Scriptures.

So, even though I will be repeating myself, I will summarize as follows:

1. Not only are Old Testament saints part of the Church, so that their experiences are important examples for us to learn from (1 Corinthians 10:6,11; compare vv 1-4; Hebrews 3:16-4:2), but in many ways their experiences are demonstrations of what the reality of life after the Cross is for believers of this Age, which, of course, is what you yourself say too with "whatsoever,that happen (sic) in the old is a shadow of the new testament". It is not at all weird that Enoch's translation is then a biblical graphic of the living resurrection.

2. Our Lord Jesus is certainly the first and only person yet resurrected, but He is not a type by any means, since His Resurrection is the exact same Resurrection that the Church and the Friends of the Bride from the Millennium will experience (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).

3. I actually made a clear argument that Enoch is just like all other believers who died and went to be with the Lord: unresurrected. He is not in a glorified body. Translation is not resurrection. It is only a type of the living resurrection, that is the resurrection of the saints who will be alive at the return of Jesus Christ.

johnw47:


yes that's how i see it too, thanks for your writings
a lot of work goes into them

I'm always blessed to be of service to fellow believers, however the Lord is pleased to use me. And I thank you for your very kind words.

KNOWMORE56:



[/b]. If it says that Enoch did not experience death, then Enoch did not experience death. [b]

May the Almighty God bless you abundantly.

You've given detail explanation to it in so much that I don't have any thing to say further.

Thank you for your very kind words.

LordReed:


Who is abridging your right? LMAO! Fire down! Bwahahahahaha!

[img]https://media1./images/1aaab98b112d0fc8ff2156c247a8ffdc/tenor.gif?itemid=18513725[/img]

Great.

Cheers.

LordReed:


Glad you acknowledge that belief says nothing about the truth of the existence of a thing. I don't believe and I am satisfied to be without belief until such a time as it can be demonstrated that any of the stories are true. If as you say a time will come then lets wait for that time. LoL

It is part of the Christian worldview that only the truth that one believes is worth anything. If you believe lies, they won't do you any good no matter how passionately and enthusiastically you believe them. That is why Christians are not only commanded to but also provided with all the tools and resources necessary to actually seek out the truth and believe it and help others to do the same. That is actually the entire business of Christianity. It is also why those of us who have gone anywhere in the Christian race are sometimes amused and sometimes exasperated by the false conceptions that unbelievers, especially of the atheistic variety, have of the Christian Faith. The whole business of Christianity is the truth about life. Lies are the tools of our enemy, not convenient emotional props for us.

As for the time, you are still alive, and I do have a right to be thankful to my God that you are. I also have a right to hope that that day will not find you a condemned rebel without hope at the Judgment of the Great White Throne. I mean to fully exercise both rights even if you take exception to my doing so.

LordReed:



I don't know how you read what I wrote and came away with the idea that I said you said something you didn't say.

The only way tales of eternities in lakes of fire can be of any kind significance is if you believe they truly exist. I don't so they cannot have any significance to me so I have no reason to be moved by such tales to act in a certain way. If a god does exist I am waiting for it show itself, until then no need to bother myself.

I also didn't say that you said that I said something that I didn't say. I only wanted to clarify what I said in case your words meant that you misunderstood them, not because you said that I said something that I didn't say. To be clear, I mean that your comment about "you've invested so much time" made me think that I should clarify that that wasn't what I was talking about. I wanted to make sure that you understood that I didn't mean any investment you made, rather I meant what you stood to lose by throwing your faith away.

As for the significance of these "tales of eternity," belief does not a thing make true, nor does the lack of belief make a thing false. If a thing is true, then it is true regardless what anyone believes about it. If one decides that they don't believe that there is such a thing as an eternity or a Heaven and a Hell, it does not make such things not exist if in fact they do exist. Likewise, believing that they exist will not make them exist.

Belief or conviction is merely an intelligent/moral response to reality. So, it does not in any way affect reality.

One may feel emotionally secure in the conviction that there is no such thing as an eternity or a Heaven and Hell, but a feeling is not proof that something is true; and the same applies the other way too.

Nonetheless, as I said, you are still alive for whatever that will eventually be worth to you. If you die in apostasy, it will be worth that much more pain to you, if the Gospel is true as we Christians believe. If you repent and either die believing or live believing to see the Lord return, then it will be worth exceedingly more joy than the mortal mind can dream or the mortal heart contain.

As for God existing, I don't believe I have anything more to say to that than everything that I have already said to you several times in the past. You yourself are proof of God's Existence. Even if the universe is not sufficient proof in itself to you, you certainly are more than sufficient proof for yourself. But you are certainly able and responsible to believe whatever you want. As I have said before, life is a test of faith. So, we must choose what we believe. Insisting that it shouldn't be will not make a whit of difference. God's appearances in this world have not sufficed to make anyone believe who didn't want to, so it will not make you believe either if you don't want to. That is your choice, your right as one who bears the image of God. The time will come, however, when no one can doubt anymore, but at that time, believing will make no difference because it will no longer be a voluntary act of the will.

LordReed:


LoLz! I wish I had listened to my instincts years ago, instead this same excuse made me hang on to the fairytale. You've invested so much it says, which answers not a jot about whether it is real or not. LMFAO!

No my dear ihedinobi2, the tragedy is all the wasted time I'll never get back.

I didn't say that you invested so much; I said that you gave up so much. I don't know you well enough to make any substantial claims about how far you went spiritually (although in my opinion, it wasn't far at all), but what we Christians expect in terms of reward far outstrips all of our actual input, and that is what I'm very sorry indeed that you are willing to give up.

Nonetheless, you are still alive. As long as anyone lives (except those who take the mark of the Antichrist during the Tribulation), there remains a possibility of return or turning to the Lord and of becoming actually productive for Him. So, while I am sorry, very sorry indeed that you are as you are now and that you seem determined to remain that way, I remain hopeful that you will eventually return to the Lord.

I honestly can't imagine anything in this world worth risking an eternity in the Lake of Fire for or giving up the glories of a perfect Universe with God for. It seems like such a crazy trade that I wish no one would make it. But then this is the meaning of being made in the image of God. Having a free will means that only the person is in full command of their own destiny. I can't make any choice for you or anyone else. I can only make mine. I can beg, cajole, threaten even (if I am inclined to such foolishness), or try to bribe you into making the decision I consider right for you, but in the end only you can make it. So, I choose the biblical way of leaving you to the Lord, trusting Him to provide all the opportunity and motivation that you could possibly use to return, and staying ready to help if you ever decide that you could use my help.

MrPresident1, your delusions didn't start today then? And you still haven't repented of them? Incredible!

LordReed, this thread is a tragedy. I still hope earnestly that you return to what you once believed. What a loss when one has gone some way only to give up everything that one could have had! And for what? I can't fathom what it is about this life that makes giving up one's faith in Jesus Christ worth it.

Image123:


Yes sir. Well done. Great to hear you still keeping on.

Life is not worth much otherwise, my oga. The Lord and His Truth is all that makes life worth living, so what else could I possibly do? It's a joy to see that you hold the same view too. One day, we will rejoice together in the New Jerusalem after the wars of this life.

Image123:


Brother, really been a minute.

Oga Image! Long time, sir. Well done. It's good to see you still around these parts.

twoMcfemad:
Good day all,

I need Sunday school manual / teaching guide for teenagers. Anyone with it should please share. Thanks and God bless

Hello there.

Depending on the ages of the teenagers, you could try any of the following links:

https://bibleacademyonline.com/omo/childrens-lessons-2/suggested-sequence-of-study/

https://bibleacademyonline.com/omo/adult/bible-training/basic-bible/

Preetti:
Good morning, please who can shed more light on proverbs 21 vs 9 and 19, I was reading it this morning and I'm wondering if it's only men that deal with quarrels and complaining in the confinements of a marriage

Hello there.

Of course, it isn't only men, nor does either of those verses teach that it is. It singles men out specifically because men are the heads of homes.

To explain, for those who aren't in a position to lead, it may be easy to think that you can impose your will on others and everything will be just fine, but anyone who has ever led anyone knows that the responsibility in leading is heavy indeed and not easy at all to manage.

Imagine a man who loves his wife and wishes to live in peace with her but finds her contentious and vexing. It is hard to display affection toward such a woman without encouraging her behavior. It is also very hard to correct that behavior without losing affection for her. Additionally, since he is the head of the home, he is responsible for her and their children to the Lord. These are really difficult things to handle.

You will notice also that in the New Testament, men are roundly commanded not to divorce their wives except for sexual immorality, so that if you have a difficult wife at home, it is not sufficient reason to dissolve the marriage. So, such a man ends up in a state of near-perpetual tribulation.

On the other hand, a woman who is being abused by a high-handed husband may leave her husband (cf 1 Corinthians 7:11), although neither man nor woman is allowed by the Bible to remarry in the event of a separation or divorce.

So, there is greater responsibility on the man in the eyes of the Lord. Those two verses you mention were only sympathising with men in that regard. That is not to say that there is no application possible to women in similar situations with a husband, but as I have said, the woman can leave if she is being abused, provided she does not remarry, whereas the man cannot.

PastorAIO:


Na Ihedinobi go fit stand in for Ravi Zacharias as him na the number one disciple.

For me personally, I think Ravi Zacharias’ greatest crime is his butchering of logic and simple argumentations in his lectures.

Hi PastorAIO.

Been a minute.

I could be wrong, but I don't remember quoting Ravi in any of our conversations. Is there some reason you call me his disciple? Maybe I speak of him somewhere else that you know about?

I did respect him, but I followed his work from afar, as I did a few other popular apologists, like most recently William Lane Craig. I've never read any of Ravi's books (I have one of Craig's that I've been meaning to read but haven't gotten around to either) or particularly listened to a stretched out debate. I tend to watch one or two full debates of any apologist I'm interested in and then follow them through clips of any arguments that they make.

I'm not sure then why you think I was his disciple.

As for these unfortunate scandals, as I said, I didn't know him that well. And I try to keep out of things that I can't be completely certain of (not that I'm anywhere near perfect at that), so I have no opinion either way. I only know that if he believed in Jesus, he is with the Lord in Heaven. And if he was sinning arrogantly, then he suffered the sin into death as a punishment. That is to say, the Master that he served was more than able to set him straight in any bad behavior that he persisted in. I don't have to weigh in. But I hope that I can learn from the whole debacle and be a little wiser about the choices I make.

Makes for interesting browsing. This was back when antichristians could still string together a sophisticated but false argument. Today, they can't even talk without finding an insult to throw in. And they never even bother to properly attack arguments or properly construct one. They could take a library out of your book, PastorAIO.

frank317:


What kind of excuse is this for gods sake?

No kind of excuse. Just an explanation. You don't like it?

frank317:
How does this gibberish even make sense to you.

Not sure how to answer this. It doesn't read like gibberish to me at all. In fact, it makes a great deal of sense to me. Maybe you can point out what parts of it read like gibberish so that I can understand what you mean.

frank317:
Ur mythical God created devil for the sake of drama. Devil fuq up for heaven and the best option for God was to send him down to torment innocent man. Then he even had to ask devil to help him torment poor job because God like acting like a psycho

I'm not sure what the above is about. Does it have something to do with what I said?

frank317:


U make up ur own stories and when u are questioned u start throwing accusations.

I couldn't see where the universe was destroyed with water in all ur quotes... At least u could have highlighted it for clarity sake.

If you begin from the premise that I make up my own stories, isn't it logical that it would be hard for you to admit any evidence to the contrary? I may not be the problem here. I did show in my last response to dalaman how I came to the conclusions that I came to. If they weren't good enough, what difference would it make if I highlighted whole phrases and clauses and whatnot? What a person is determined to dismiss they will dismiss.

frank317:
U are a very dangerous person

I don't understand. I am dangerous because I offered an explanation for why there is pain and suffering in this world?

dalaman:


Still can't see where it says the universe was destroyed by water because Satan rebelled. That remains your own commentary.

Well, can't help you there.

Back in school, what showed you were learning was your ability to see how things added up. That you could see what things mean meant that you could solve problems you hadn't seen before by looking for familiar things that functioned in a known way and working them to produce new results.

I think that any reasoning person who isn't looking to accuse believers of lying just because they don't like what they say would already have seen what the passages say. Willful ignorance is a choice. One cannot change it for another person. So, as I said before, I can't help you there.