₦airaland Forum

johnydon22:
For the single fact that you have asserted Religions beget morality when the other way round is the case shows i personally have nothing more to discuss with you based on the development of human societal ethics and morality.

Lastly, My assertion could be to u, but not totally wrong as far as I'm concerned. It's a matter of perspective.

johnydon22:
When someone does not know that Politics and Religion are products of organized society, what then can that person assert correctly as regard these premises..

I'd have like to explain something here but it won't just be acceptable to you. And mind u, u are to haste on ur conclusion!

...

johnydon22:
No there is one thing you should learn from my post and that is "You need a basic lesson in history"
When someone does not know that Politics and Religion are products of organized society, what then can that person assert correctly as regard these premises..
I personally have no problem with religion unless you are in jupiter only then can you claim you are not seeing the effects these religious brouhaha are having on everybody including atheists.
So that an atheists retaliates by placing such absurd ideologies under scrutiny is very much in order.

And the fact that there could be two answers to a question is something necessary for u to understand. Once u have made up ur mind never to look into what others perspective is, u will continue to make a terrible mistake that there's nothing they can offer u.
Of course, we can go into history to clarify our differences but how deep should we go. Don't forget history starts somewhere but has no end; tomorrow will be history. so, when u go into its depth, and history itself has nothing else to offer how do u explain the rest of the issue?

johnydon22:
[b]Morality is a product of religion What type of people do i really have to deal with everyday on nairaland exactly.

Religion is a product of the society and not the other way round. . . Before man started settling together into a community everyone lived in autonomy.

When these people began settling close to each other, there was need for ethics and mutual behaviours towards each other, that is the advent of morality.

Religion and Politics were later additions to human society and these two emanated from the need to ensure people conform to the expected norms of the new society which was vital for mutual coexistence.

That is how Morality and order beget Politics (Law of state) and religion (Alleged law of God to make sure people obeyed) And these development led to the emergence of Civilizations and leadership which culminated into monarchs. . History 101

Asserting Religion beget morality is like asserting Politics beget morality or you beget your mother.... I think you need a lesson down historical antiquities so you would stop making such ludicrous naive assertions next time.

Morality is neither Islamic anymore than it is Hindu or christian, Morality is human. It belongs to no ism and is not dependent on any book, creed or supernatural claims for foundation because morality itself is a foundation [/b]

There's one thing I got to know from ur response to my post, That's "the hearing of religion is the opium of atheists".
I think I'll have to let go of this, so as not to waste time on "never ending argument".

johnydon22:
So many people don't even know what morality means ...

If u would like to know, Morality is part & parcel of religion; You can't detach Morality from Religion and vice versa. It's religion that introduced Morality into the society, before it now becomes part of our life.
And since it has become part of human life, atheist may act according to the moral obligations of his society. Therefore, "Morality" for atheists (that have it) is an inherited quality which actually stems from "Religion".

You guys don't know what being "ancient city" means. Mind u, Ibadan now has many new and nice looking structures.

I still haven't got why these people always involve Islam in their sectarian differences. what to say, I don't know!
BTW, so Shoebats didn't even convert to Christianity, but Catholicism... learned new thing

#Parisweedaddict (NB) Smokers are liable to brain degradation! The earlire u know, the more ur chances of recovery...

malvisguy212:
am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son (Surah 19:19).

The words used in Arabic to describe him are ghulaaman-zakiyyan, “A MOST-HOLY BOY .” The word zakiyya, meaning
“BLAMELESS,” appears only twice in the
Quran. The other occasion is in the story
about Moses in which he met a young
man who is described as being innocent. But in this case, the word was only referring to the young man’s innocence of any crime deserving of death, but in Jesus’ case, the angel was describing his whole personality and character BEFORE he was even born. “Faultless” or “blameless” clearly means without sin.

You can hide behind vacuum forever, it's what u chose.
Allahu Alam!

malvisguy212:
listen! Your explanation does not hold ground at all , you failed woefully.

My explanations may not be helpful in correcting ur misconception due to certain reasons, but l shall never fail.

malvisguy212:
You say" ALL of us are born sinless and incapable of sining" but the hadith I provide say satan touch ALL human from birth EXCEPT Jesus.

Did I dispute about the hadith? No!
the hadith simply told us about the prayer of Maryam's mother in [q 3: 35/36]. Jesus wasn't the only exception, but also his mother. And it wasn't because of any other reason than the prayer of his grandparent. However, if u think there is other reasons why Mary and Jesus was exceptions kindly present it for us to see. But if u can't do that, the argument is dead!

malvisguy212:
What is the effect of satan touching All humans from birth?

Whatever the effect might be, it doesn't automatically make u a sinner which is the bone of contention here.

malvisguy212:
What effect satan put on a child via the touching, this effect cannot work on Jesus because satan did not touch it.

I guess Jesus and Mary didn't cry when they were borne to this world. But, there is no significance to that since it didn't make them more or less human.

malvisguy212:
So your explanation contradicte the hadith.

LOL! how?

Zoharariel:
The truth is; WW3 is just some months away.

Did you see how America is trying to provoke North Korea?

America & South Korea just had a joint military drill some few days ago, simulating the invasion of North Korea, and North Korea has already threatened imminent strike against South Korea, but when it kicks off officially, every living & not living things in America would be vapourized with 3 days, because here in Moscow, we're on standby.

Are u speaking of America that cheaply? try to be realistic bro! And on the issue of South and North Korea, it's North that has always been aggressive towards their southern neighbor. Their leader is such a psycho.

Considering the present position of South and North Korea, and countries like America and Russia that are expending more of their fortunes on highly sophisticated weapons, the fear of WWIII is the beginning of wisdom.
I pity my innocent continent

malvisguy212:
I made myself clear! The hadith I provide say "Satan touch ALL men from birth with the exception of Jesus " satan touch ALL men including john .

Firstly, let's look at the significance of devil's touch on new born babies. Does it have any significance as regards the baby's spiritual wellness? NO! as contained in the hadith (Sahih al-Bukhari,
Arabic-English, vol.8, no.597 and Sahib Muslim,
Eng. Trans. vol 4, no. 6423). All of us are borne in a sinless form, and we're incapable of sinning for the next 41 days. And after 41 days till the age of accountability, we incur no sin for our misdeeds. This categorically means the action of devil towards us at birth has no effect on our state of purity because 41 days after his action on us, we still remain as we were before his action.
But then, is devil just playing prank with a child when he pinches him/her? That one is not clear, but the result of his pinch on babies is what makes new babies cry as scholars stated.
Secondly, the reason why Jesus and Mary were exceptions is not far fetch. While we can't suffer from the misdeeds of our parents, (see Qur'an 4:111; 6:164) we can benefit from their good deeds and their prayers for us will not go in vain. Such is the case of Mary and Jesus; devil was unable to touch them however hard he tried and only touch their placentas instead only because of the prayer of Mary's mother for her child and grandchildren
(q 3:35-36).
Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 35: (Remember) when the wife of 'Imran said: "O my Lord! I have vowed to You what (the child that) is in my womb to be dedicated for Your services (free from all worldly work; to serve Your Place of worship), so accept this, from me. Verily, You are the All-Hearer, the All-Knowing."
36: Then when she delivered her child [Maryam (Mary)], she said: "O my Lord! I have delivered a female child," - and Allah knew better what she delivered, - "And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Maryam (Mary), and I seek refuge with You (Allah) for her and for her offspring from Shaitan (Satan), the outcast." Therefore, that Devil couldn't pinch Mary and Jesus at birth was merely because God answered the prayer of His faithful servant on her offspring nothing more and nothing less.

Salam!

Groundless excuse.

malvisguy212:
what was the reason Jesus had the virgin birth ?

Did you read the hadith I provide or you just chose to believe lies and interpret wrong thing? The hadith say , satan touch ALL soul from birth EXCEPT Jesus.why ? Any reason for this ?
Below are list of prophet who commit sin and ask for forgiveness except Jesus who comit NO sin.

ADAM
Surah 7:23: They said: “Our Lord, we
have wronged our own souls. If thou
forgive us not and bestow not upon
us Thy mercy, we shall certainly be
lost.” (Yusuf Ali)
ABRAHAM
Surah 26:82: “And Who I hope will
forgive me my faults on the Day of
Judgment.” (Sher Ali)
MOSES
Surah 28:16: “He prayed: ‘O my Lord!
I have indeed wronged my soul! Do
Thou then forgive me!’ So God
forgave him.” (Yusuf Ali)
DAVID
Surah 38:24: “And David gathered
that We had tried him; he asked
forgiveness of His Lord, fell down,
bowing in prostration, and turned to
God in repentance.” (Yusuf Ali)
SOLOMON
Surah 38:35: “He said, ‘O my Lord!
Forgiveme’…” (Yusuf Ali)
JONAH
Surah 37:142-144: “Then the big Fish
did swallow him, and he had done
acts worthy of blame. Had it not
been that he repented and glorified
God, he would certainly have
remained inside the fish.” (Yusuf Ali)

The Qur’an also testifies that even
Muhammad is a sinner and is in need of
forgiveness.

MUHAMMAD
Surah 48:1-2: “Lo! We have given thee
O Muhammad a signal victory, That
Allah may forgive thee of thy sin
that which is past and that which is to
come.” (Pickthall)
Surah 47:19: “So know (O
Muhammad) that there is no God
save Allah, and ask forgiveness for
thy sin and for believing men and
believing women. Allah knoweth
(both) your place of turmoil and your
place of rest.” (Pickthall)

The list goes on and on.

Give me the verse that talks about the erring of Yahya {John the Baptist} if you can't, then this doesn't hold water because anything that's good for the goose should be good for the gander. If simply the fact that Qur'an doesn't contain the mistakes of Jesus made him infallible, then John should be on list of whatever Jesus is. Don't you think?

malvisguy212:
The Qur’an teaches that the virgin-birth of Jesus was simply a manifestation of God’s power.

Surah 3:47: “She said: My Lord! How
can I have a child when no mortal
hath touched me? He said: So it will
be. Allah createth what He will. If
he decreeth a thing, He saith unto it
only: Be! And it is.” (Pickthall)

The truth of the matter is that the virgin
birth of Jesus Christ was not a random
manifestation of God’s creative power as
implied in the Qur’an. While the fact that it was brought about by the power of God is without any doubt, however, this initself does not explain its meaning or
purpose.Surely the great act of creating
the whole world, with all the animate
and inanimate things in it, out of
nothing are sufficient proofs of God’s
creative power.What necessity was there
to give a new demonstration of this
power?

What necessity was there for Jesus to perform other miracles at the request of his people. Or what necessity was there for their people to request for miracles in the first place? Couldn't they see all the wonders that abound around them? Surely, these people were not atheist, they knew the is creator. Why would they keep asking for miracles even after witnessing one?

malvisguy212:
The Qur’an itself teaches that the
mere fact that God could create men out
of nothing is surely proof that God can
raise them from the dead.

Surah 22:5: “O mankind! If ye have a
doubt about the Resurrection,
consider that We created you out of
dust…” (Yusuf Ali)

As such, Allah is saying that no proof of
the ultimate resurrection is needed for
the unbelievers since his initial act of
creation is sufficient for man to perceive
his creative powers. In other words, there
is no need for Allah to further
demonstrate his creative powers. The
miraculous conception of Jesus just could
not have been for the purpose of a
manifestation of God’s power as there
was no visible demonstration of God’s
power for humans to behold when he
caused the conception to take place.

The bolded is surely ur opinion, if not, then bring ur authoritative proof that there wasn't any wisdom in Jesus' conception except the one u erroneously imply.
Sura Moriam 21: He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has
been decreed.

What could be more?

I can remember my brother transferred this film to me like three times if not more and I'd not watch it. at times, I'd decline accepting it, because the title wasn't fascinating to me. But after watching it once, it became my 1st rated movie. It's very educative with many scenes that if u remember them, u'll start laughing irrespective of where u're.

malvisguy212:
why will God interrupt the nature of procreation
Just for Jesus to have the virgin birth? Did the quran state the reason ?

Surah Maryam, Verse 20:
She said: When shall I have a boy and no mortal has yet touched me, nor have I been unchaste?

21: He said: Even so; your Lord says: It is easy to Me: and that We may make him a sign to men and a mercy from Us, and it is a matter which has been decreed.
(English - Shakir)

malvisguy212:
Every sane man will understand,as the first created human (Adam) , it is impossible to have father and mother, but in the case of Jesus, God creatures are there BUT still Jesus did not have a natural birth, why ?

There is a reason for that, different from one u attributed to him though.

malvisguy212:
This proved to the fact that Jesus existed LONG BEFORE he was born into this world.

We all used to exist somewhere before prior to our birth into this particular world. What are u implying?

malvisguy212:
surah 19:19
“He said: I am only a messenger of
thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a
FAULTLESS SON.” (Pickthall)

Surah Maryam, Verse 13:
And tenderness from Us and purity, and he [John] was one who guarded (against evil),
(English - Shakir) as much as I know, Faultless is synonymous to purity, no? So, faultless was used while purity was used for Jesus and John respectively.
and infact, Bible made the two individuals parallel. but I'm not going that way.

malvisguy212:
Sahih Muslim, Volume 4, pg 1261:
Abu Huraira reported Allah’s
Messenger (saw) as saying: The satan
touches every son of Adam on the
day when his mother gives birth to
him with the EXCEPTION of Mary and
her son.

Why should Jesus be the only man who
is without sin among mankind?

Lol, try and research a little about Islam cos it seems u know next to nothing about it. We're all sinless from birth, we incur sins through our deeds. and even, there're certain deeds that when done we can retain our sinless form. You gerrit?

malvisguy212:
The Qur’an admits his sinlessness but gives
us no reason for it. The fact that the
Qur’an testifies that Jesus was a prophet
does not answer our question. Why then are other prophets not described in the Qur’an as being faultless? In fact, quite a few are shown to be wrongdoers. But we must ask again, “Why was Jesus the only one who is sinless and not other men?”

Man, making mistakes is a nature of man but attributing wrongdoings to prophets of God is a step too far. Let's be mindful of our comments so as not to err. Those are the confirmed chosen ones through which God communicate with mankind and attributing the Whatnots that we can't even attribute to the so called prophets of today is very wrong. Qur'an doesn't portray any prophet as a wrongdoer, it's actually a terrible mistake that needs to be corrected from the bible.

malvisguy212:
soo what your points ?

That it's only God that has no similitude, Jesus has.

malvisguy212:
The quran say Jesus is sinless and adam is NOT ? Why would Jesus be the only prophet that is without sin?

Bro, I think u are beginning to add ur own words to Al quran. it never claimed the bolded, and if it does, pls supply us with the verse for clarification. But, I'm 100% sure it never does claim Jesus is sinless and other are not.

malvisguy212:
Note: Adam was created innocent and NOT righteous.

Innocent, not righteous I don't seem to get it. pls explain better.

Freemanan:
I believe in Plurality and It's kind.. Something Christianity should adopt... At least to make them more reasonable.

As much as I agree that it's normal at least to make them more reasonable as u said. It's beside the point to always seek justification in trivialising what people of their faith do and making a big deal out of others when the fact that both sides have at a point in time make humanity suffer can simply be accepted.

malvisguy212:
yes.

(English - Shakir) Surah Aal-e-Imran, Verse 59:
إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ اللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ

Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, Be, and he was.
(English - Shakir)

parisbookaddict:
Dude there are so many mistakes in your write up that it is laughable, why did u put ur pic up there as well, did u think you post was profound,?? No it wasn't.

But u made a point, all religions have committed their fair amount of atrocities. The Catholics for a time killed heretics and fought protestants for 3 decades, the Catholics fought the muslims as well and even murdered muslims without mercy,

the Hindus where all over Asia and the middle east but Muslims have killed them so much that their are very very very few Hindus still in the middle east, they at a point fought muslims back especially in india, the buddists are usually very very peaceful but they have been attacked so much by the muslims that they had to fight back especially in Burma, muslims wage frquent attacks in against nonmuslims in china, stabbing kids and adults alike, Catholics organized the crusades and killed muslims because of muslims were waging jihad in Europe and killing Christians, they almost turned France and Spain Islamic like they did to turkey, Egypt etc do u know why,

because muslims are commanded to fight , to kill and to forcefully convert.. So even tho no religion is free from fightings and bloodshed, there is one particular religion that is commanded to shed blood of people and it is Islam.

Let me educate u some more

Islam's inception is associated with war. From 623 to 777, a span of 154 years, there were 83 military conflicts involving the Muslims, approximately one battle every two years . . . . and that is just what I have recorded here. Is Islam a religion of peace? Muslims tell me it is, but the facts speak otherwise. Think about it. Was Islam just defending itself all across Europe as it spread? Was Spain attacking the Muslims when it was thousands of miles away? Were the other countries all conspiring against Islam, and so it defended itself and spread? Or, is it spread by the sword instead of love and truth?
Jesus said, "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly," (John 10:10).
570Birth of Muhammad in Mecca into the tribe of Quraish
577Muhammad's mother dies
580Death of Abdul Muttalib, Muhammad's grandfather
583First journey to Syria with a trading Caravan
595Muhammad marries Khadijah, a rich widow several years older than he
595Second journey to Syra
598His son, Qasim, is born
600His daughter, Zainab, is born
603His daughter, Um-e-Kalthum, is born
604His daughter, Ruqayya, is born
605Placement of Black Stone in Ka'aba
605His daughter, Fatima, is born
610Muhammad, in a cave on Mt. Hira, hears the angel Gabriel tell him that Allah is the only true God
613Muhammad's first public preaching of Islam at Mt. Hira. Gets few converts
615Muslims persecuted by the Quraish
619Marries Sau'da and Aisha
620Institution of five daily prayers
622Muhammad immigrates from Mecca to Medina, which was then called Yathrib, gets more converts
623Battle of Waddan
623Battle of Safwan
623Battle of Dul-'Ashir
624Muhammad and converts begin raids on caravans to fund the movement
624Zakat becomes mandatory
624Battle of Badr
624Battle of Bani Salim
624Battle of Eid-ul-Fitr and Zakat-ul-Fitr
624Battle of Bani Qainuqa'
624Battle of Sawiq
624Battle of Ghatfan
624Battle of Bahran
625Battle of Uhud--70 Muslims are killed
625Battle of Humra-ul-Asad
625Battle of Banu Nudair
625Battle of Dhatur-Riqa
626Battle of Badru-Ukhra
626Battle of Dumatul-Jandal
626Battle of Banu Mustalaq Nikah
627Battle of the Trench
627Battle of Ahzab
627Battle of Bani Quraiza
627Battle of Bani Lahyan
627Battle of Ghaiba
627Battle of Khaibar
628Muhammad signs treaty with Quraish
630Muhammad conquers Mecca
630Battle of Hunsin
630Battle of Tabuk
632Muhammad dies
632Abu-Bakr, Muhammad's father-in-law, along with Umar, begin a military move to enforce Islam in Arabia
633Battle at Oman
633Battle at Hadramaut
633Battle of Kazima
633Battle of Walaja
633Battle of Ulleis
633Battle of Anbar
634Battle of Basra
634Battle of Damascus
634Battle of Ajnadin
634Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph
634Battle of Namaraq
634Battle of Saqatia
635Battle of Bridge
635Battle of Buwaib
635Conquest of Damascus
635Battle of Fahl
636Battle of Yermuk
636Battle of Qadsiyia
636Conquest of Madain
637Battle of Jalula
638Battle of Yarmouk
638The Muslims defeat the Romans and enter Jerusalem
638Conquest of Jazirah
639Conquest of Khuizistan and movement into Egypt
641Battle of Nihawand
642Battle of Rayy in Persia
643Conquest of Azarbaijan
644Conquest of Fars
644Conquest of Kharan
644Umar is murdered. Othman becomes the Caliph
644Uman dies and is succeeded by Caliph Uthman
647Conquest of the island of Cypress
648Campaign against the Byzantines
651Naval battle against the Byzantines
654Islam spreads into North Africa
656Uthman is murdered. Ali become Caliph
658Battle of Nahrawan
659Conquest of Egypt
661Ali is murdered
662Egypt falls to Islam rule
666Sicily is attacked by Muslims
677Siege of Constantinople
687Battle of Kufa
691Battle of Deir ul Jaliq
700Sufism takes root as a sect of Islam
700Military campaigns in North Africa
702Battle of Deir ul Jamira
711Muslims invade Gibraltar
711Conquest of Spain
713Conquest of Multan
716Invasion of Constantinople
732Battle of Tours in France
740Battle of the Nobles
741Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa
744Battle of Ain al Jurr
746Battle of Rupar Thutha
748Battle of Rayy
749Battle of lsfahan
749Battle of Nihawand
750Battle of Zab
772Battle of Janbi in North Africa
777Battle of Saragossa in Spain


And it is passages like this that encourage muslims to kill nonmuslims.

Qur’an 9:73—O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.”


Qur'an (9:29)-"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Sura 9:5. "When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them."

Bukhari 2:24: Allah's Apostle said: "I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives and property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah."

Typical Christians' modus operandi; when attacked by atheists they resort to holding Muslims as hostages. And they're likely if we go down, these Muslims are going down with us. Obsession of the highest order!

malvisguy212:
Jesus is called christ in the quran:
Qur'an Sura 4:171: “O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. CHRIST JESUS the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah,
and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not “Trinity” :desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough
is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.”

This verse went on and say , Jesus is the word of God and a spirit from God, NO other prophet has ever been adress like this.
If the bible is not the torah and injeel mention in the quran, then were can we find this book ? Allah cannot refer you to non existing book.

Are u sure about the bolded?

Rilwayne001:
[/s] Bishop magic a.k.a. Parisbookadict a.k.a Ifeann. Don't quote me again.

The bolded got me lol. Be patient on these guys man, their ignorance will give u headache if care is not taken.
Salem!

Karmanaut:
2! = 2* 1
=2

just remember I shouldn't have used the sign (!). the answer is 2 and not 2! (2 factorial)

2!