₦airaland Forum

italo: What is "rapture?"

Show me in the Bible.

my brother has resorted in whiling away time.. See bro.. U havent even answered the question i asked you.. Deem it fit to call me back here when u answer mine.. Catholics, always changing the subject matter .since there are no scriptural proof to what they affirm. What a pity.

Sal C: Did the word rapture appear in the bible?

jesus.! I cant believe a christian asking this question. Anyway i will answer you
The word "rapture" does not at all appear in the Word of God.


The second coming of Christ however, is written and spoken of throughout the Bible. In Mark 13 and Matthew 24 the disciples asked Jesus,
"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Notice that in both cases, Jesus begins with,
"Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4)
We must also heed this warning. We are to study to show ourselves approved.
"Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness." (2 Timothy 2:14-16)
We are instructed to study and learn the truth so that we won't be deceived by teachings of men.
Jesus tells the disciples of the things which must take place. He first speaks of deceptions of ones claiming to be Christ. Then He says,
"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. (Matthew 24:6-7)
These are the very things that are taking place in this world. These things Jesus called the beginning of the sorrows. But there is more.
Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (Matthew 24:9-12)
Then Jesus tells us, that we must endure to the end.
"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (Matthew 24:13) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)
He does not leave us hanging there, but goes on to further explain what is to come, and is come; describing the times that we will face, and are facing.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matthew 24:21)
He describes this time as the worst ever seen in this world. A time such deception and tribulation, that unless these days were shortened, no flesh would be saved. Again, we are warned:
"For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matthew 24:24)
Then Jesus tells us that immediately AFTER the tribulation - then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29-30)
And THEN "they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
And it is at this time, that the Lord will gather His elect.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matthew 24:31) if u still want more explanation. Feel free to ask me...thank tou

nnagozie: But you have not answered mine and you want me to answer yours? Well I get it, you don't have any answer for mine. Deep down every christain should ask themselves this same question..Good day

my dear brother..i have answered your question previously..its just that u want to confuse yourself and thus ur asking me the same question again.. I dont shy away from questions because the bible is there to back me up. As i said the bible is the basis for any discusion in christiandom. Even though u have digressed for the subject matter into baptism.. I will still enlighten you bro.. That was why i asked you the meaning of the word 'baptism' cause in that lies the answer to your question. Now let me elucidate you on that. Baptism is being immersed in water in the name of the Trinity(the father, the son and holy spirit) for repentance and faith in Jesus denoting entry into the Christian Church. But a few points need to be unpacked from this statement:
· In: the person being baptised can go down into the water (Acts 8:38) and be submerged in it, but many people are baptised by affusion in which water is poured on the candidate instead.
· Trinity: the words “I baptise you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19) can be used at baptism, but many people are baptised “in the name of Jesus” (Acts 19:5).
· Repentance: this word means “turning back to God”, and was a key part of Jesus’ message (Matthew 4:17); but it was not the whole of it, being also what John the Baptist proclaimed (Matthew 3:2). The Christian Church did not recognise John the Baptist’s baptism as being fully Christian (Acts 19:4), so something else is clearly required as well.
· Faith: the bible’s word means both “belief” and “trust”. Belief is agreeing to facts, trust is putting one’s personal security in someone’s hands. In the bible baptism is always linked with faith in Jesus. It denotes both assenting to the facts about Jesus’ life, death and resurrection, and also committing oneself to following him in a personal relationship.
· Denoting entry: in the New Testament it seems baptism was the way people became followers of Jesus, but the question of whether baptism makes you a Christian was not tackled in those days when baptism always accompanied a personal response. See below.· Christian: Jesus’ disciples (followers) were soon nicknamed “Christians” (Acts 11:26), and this word describes all those who believe in Jesus as God’s Son in the way in which the New Testament part of the bible explains. Even jesus christ , ous savious was imersed in water,, even the eunuch was baptised like that by philip . So what are u dragging? Even namaan in d ols testament was instructed by God in to baptize himself so as to cure himself.. Havent all these shown you that christians, irrespective of their age (new testament believers and old testament alike) would undergo and baptism by immersion? Maybe i should ask you why the catholics baptize by sprinkling with water? Did jesus do that? Ehn ehn pls dont confuse people oh . #peace#

six one: The time you use to say this can be used to answer one or two of his questions. Fact: Mavister know what he's saying with scriptural backings and indepth analysis.
Italo and his fellows only drop one bible verse to back up a whole doctrine. A verse you have littile or no understanding of.

Verdict: Mavister TKO Italo and his fellow purgatrians

lolz...'purgatrians' now thats funny

nnagozie: You still haven't answered a simple question of mine. Here is the question once more

those very very early christains that had no compiled holy book(bible), what guide did they use for their baptism?

Please answer the question precisely. Thank you.

let me ask you this..if u can answer this question..then you have answerd your question your self. What is the meaning of the word 'baptism' answer accordingly. Thank you

six one: The time you use to say this can be used to answer one or two of his questions. Fact: Mavister know what he's saying with scriptural backings and indepth analysis.
Italo and his fellows only drop one bible verse to back up a whole doctrine. A verse you have littile or no understanding of.

Verdict: Mavister TKO Italo and his fellow purgatrians

thought i was the only one who noticed their inability to defend what they preach. Thanks bro. God bless

basildemaria: You do not even understand the concept "purgatory",,what has money got to do with it, I av raised som points in previous post which I am sure you ignored......this will lead us nowhere, GO ND WORK ON THE FOUNDATION WHICH IS CHRIST,,whether your work is made of Gold,silver or straws and grasses,,that is what matters.

really i donot understand the concept ''purgatory'' funny... I guess i donot concur with you on the existence of 'purgatory' thats why u said so. Besides...if there is anyone who understands what purgatory is all about, i think it is I..for one thing it doesnt exist. I wonder what your still dragging in that. Anyway i have a question for you,.since italo shyed away fro the question..let me ask you now.. Suppose a priest who has been holy all his life now commits a ''small sin'' as u call it and the rapture takes place, will he go in the rapture? Will he? Or u dont believe in rapture? Or if the priest doesnt go in the rapture, will he die in the great tribulation (which will commence immediately after the rapture) and go to ur purgatory before going to heaven?? Pls explain

basildemaria: You do not give chance for your questions to be answered before you come up with other things......

eyah so i dint give chance ehn? Once more bro. Dont sound so pathetic about it. How did i not give u chance? Did i block your posts? Didnt u see me answering the many questions askd me by your fellow disciples? Dont make me giggle pls

basildemaria: I dont think we can acheive anything meaningful on this thread.

lols. I think you should rephrase your post. Kindly change that ''we'' to ''i'' cos as for me. I have achieved a lot.. I guess why u havent achieved anything meaningful as u rightly said is becos i havent given u a chance to do so. Cos there is no room for false doctrine.. Pls if u have any questions u are free to ask me.. By the grace of God i will answeru accordingly .but bear in mind that there is punishment for changing the word of God so try not to twist any passage of the scriptures to your tune. #shalom#

nnagozie: Oga please those very very early christains that had no compiled holy book(bible), what guide did they use for their baptism?

bro, still on your question on baptism. Let me insight you bro. You see There is much confusion about baptism in the various Christian denominations. However, this is not a result of the Bible presenting a confusing message on baptism. The Bible is abundantly clear of what baptism is, who it is for, and what it accomplishes. In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized - as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him ( Acts 2:38; Romans 6:3-4). Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience after faith in Christ. It is a proclamation of faith in Christ, a statement of submission to Him, and an identification with His death, burial, and resurrection.
With this in view, infant baptism is not a Biblical practice. An infant cannot place his or her faith in Christ. An infant cannot make a conscious decision to obey Christ. An infant cannot understand what water baptism symbolizes. The Bible does not record any infants being baptized. Infant baptism is the origin of the sprinkling and pouring methods of baptism - as it is unwise and unsafe to immerse an infant under water. Even the method of infant baptism fails to agree with the Bible. How does pouring or sprinkling illustrate the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Many Christians who practice infant baptism do so because they understand infant baptism as the new covenant equivalent of circumcision. In this view, just as circumcision joined a Hebrew to the Abrahamic and Mosaic covenants, so baptism joined a person to the New Covenant of salvation through Jesus Christ. This view is unbiblical. The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as the New Covenant replacement for Old Covenant circumcision. The New Testament nowhere describes baptism as a sign of the New Covenant. It is faith in Jesus Christ that enables a person to enjoy the blessings of the New Covenant ( 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6; Hebrews 9:15).
Baptism does not save a person. It does not matter if you were baptized by immersion, pouring, or sprinkling - if you have not first trusted in Christ for salvation, baptism (no matter the method) is meaningless and useless. Water baptism by immersion is a step of obedience to be done after salvation as a public profession of faith in Christ and identification with Him. Infant baptism does not fit the Biblical definition of baptism or the Biblical method of baptism. If Christian parents wish to dedicate their child to Christ, then a baby dedication service is entirely appropriate. However, even if infants are dedicated to the Lord, when they grow up they will still have to make a personal decision to believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

nnagozie: Oga please those very very early christains that had no compiled holy book(bible), what guide did they use for their baptism?

there is always an answer for any question.

Although Christian Baptism may perhaps be regarded as having originated with John The Baptist, baptism by immersion in water ("baptize," whether in its original Hebrew or Greek forms, literally means to immerse in water) did not originate with Christians, or with John the Baptist. Jews practiced baptism as a traditional act of purification and initiation long before the coming of the Messiah. As a Jew (a Levite actually, John was the son of a Levite priest, Zechariah i.e. Luke 1:5, and John's mother Elizabeth, also a Levite, was a relative of Mary), the man who came to be known as John the Baptist would have been well familiar with the practice before he was sent, by some unidentified individual (John 1:33), who also may have been the one who baptized John himself (there is no Biblical record of John's own baptism) to baptize, proclaiming "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 3:2 RSV). Symbolic acts of cleansing weren't just done by the priests, as evidenced by Naaman the Syrian being cured of leprosy by a "baptism" in the Jordan River. He at first didn't appreciate what Elishatold him to do, or why. He later learned that it wasn't the water that healed him, it was because of his act ofobedienceandfaiththat God made him "clean":
"But Naaman was angry, and went away, saying, "Behold, I thought that he would surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of The Lord his God, and wave his hand over the place, and cure the leper. Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them, and be clean?" So he turned and went away in a rage."
"But his servants came near and said to him, "My father, if the prophet [see Prophets] had commanded you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much rather, then, when he says to you, 'Wash, and be clean'?" So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean. Then he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and he came and stood before him; and he said, "Behold, I know that there is no God in all the earth but in Israel" (2 Kings 5:11-15 RSV) hope i have answered your question.. If you are still confused .let me know.

JMAN05: @ITALO

You believe that one day, Jesus will appear to rapture the living. Am I right?

So how will this raptured people go to heaven since they have atom of sin in them? will they go to purgatory first, then start going to heaven?

yes yes bro...lovely question.because after the rapture, the great tribulation will immediately commence..for 7yrs. Or maybe the catholics dont believe in that. Now suppose a priest who has been righteous all his life and commits a ''little sin' and then the rapture takes place. @italo now tell me he would go in the rapture? Will he? Or he will die during the great tribulation and go to purgatory and then go to heaven? Cant wait for him to start twisting the bible or better still ignore this question.

God be praised!

The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent.The above statments show that the Roman Catholic Church's official stance on the death of Jesus Christ on the cross to pay for our sins was not sufficient.This is the spirit of anti-christ. Christ died for us because we are not capable of paying for our own sins. If His death does not perfectly satisfy God's wrath against us, then He is a liar and cannot be trusted!
What are the three steps of the Christian walk and do they have anything to do with purgatory?
Step 1 - Justification - Accepting Jesus as your Lord and Savior. When you do this, it is "just-as-if-I" never sinned. Justification removes you from the penalty of sin. This is a free ticket to heaven. You don't have to endure a purifying fire beforehand.
Step 2 - Sanctification - Leading a life according to the Spirit as opposed to leading a life according to the world. Sanctification sets you apart from the world. The world should be able to look at your life and see that you "are not of the world". This is a lifelong process. Sanctification removes you from the power of sin. The closer you walk with God, the less tempting sin is. Buying indulgences and paying for loved ones who may be in purgatory has no place in the Christian walk.
Step 3 - Purification - No, you don't go to a room with a cleansing fire to be purified. You are purified when God calls you home to heaven and removes you from the very presence of sin. Purification is the blessed hope that all Christians await. Christians are not afraid of death...they know they are going to heaven.Imagine the fear of death when someone believes they must first go to a place of torment before they get to heaven. How can they be comforted when death approaches? Why would anyone even want to be a part of such a teaching?
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the spirits and souls of the saved will return with Jesus to get their bodies) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. WHERFORE COMFORT ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS. Often, the apocryphal books are also called upon to make the case for purgatory. Some basic problems exist with the apocryphal books:
- No author of an apocryphal book ever claimed to be a prophet.
- No author of an apocryphal book was confirmed by any miraculous works of God.
- No author of an apocryphal book is ever quoted by any of the prophets in Scripture.
- Even the Jews acknowledged that the prophetic gifts had ceased by the time the earliest was written (400 BC).If the Jews didn't accept them, why would we?
In summary, we have a massive problem with sin. Purgatory just isn't enough to deal with it. Only Christ can pay my sin-debt.

Where did purgatory come from? It originated with Greek and pagan philosophy, in particular Plato, and was introduced into the church through Origen in the 3rd Century, who is considered a heretic by the Roman Catholic Church. In addition, the teaching of purgatory is contradictory to Scripture for it undermines its clear teaching of the sufficiency of Jesus Christ and is not taught in the Old and New Testaments.
When was purgatory introduced to the church? Sometime before the 5th Century, the Roman Catholic Church took advantage of the idea of purgatory and used it in conjunction with selling "indulgences" to help put money into the Catholic Church.
An "indulgence" is the idea that by contributing some money to the Roman Catholic Church, you could "indulge" in a certain sin and not have to worry about the punishment for that sin.
In conjunction with purgatory, parishioners were assuming that something divine was taking place when they gave the church money to have their loved ones released from that imaginary place. By giving their money, they would also have their own time reduced. I didn't know that the pope and priests had the keys to death and hell.
What does the bible say happens when you die? "absent from the body, present with the Lord" 2 Cor. 5:8. Of course, that only applies to those who have put their trust in Jesus. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8: 1
What happens to those who die who don't believe in Jesus?And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. Hebrews 9:27When you die, judgment is immediate. Either your sins have been washed away by Christ's shed blood or they haven't been. Those who have rejected Christ still have the wrath of God abiding on them and they immediately go to hell not purgatory. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideson him. John 3:36
When we die, we will not be routed to a waiting room to await entrance to heaven. Either Christ's death paid the full price of our sins or it didn't. We will either go to hell or heaven. There is no in between. The Catholic Church is promoting a lie with its position on purgatory. Who is the father of all lies? Satan.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

The major objection to purgatory is that somehow it undermines the finished work of Christ. Is Christ’s death sufficient? Of course it is! It is sufficient to win our redemption and to allow the Holy Spirit to sanctify us. The work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer, however, is the work of purification and sanctification. It is the application of the divine life won by Christ. Purgatory in no way should be viewed as a “second chance,” by which those who did not believe in and follow Christ can somehow “suffer their way into heaven,” despite their rejection of the Christian life. Jesus is clear that those who refuse to follow Him are guilty: “[H]e who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God” (Jn. 3:18). Spiritual purification is possible only for those who have been reconciled to God in this life (cf. 2 Cor. 5:18-20).
The concept of purification after death dates back to the Jews of pre-Christian times. Evidence of this can be seen in the Second Book of Maccabees. Catholics will quickly cite this as scriptural evidence for the reality of purgatory, but we must remember that Protestants do not accept 2 Maccabees as scriptural.

Moreso... Purgatory also appears to be “guilty by association”: The doctrine is caught up in the “Catholic collection” of the intercession of the saints, indulgences, the sacrifice of the Mass, and other items that are perceived as “unbiblical” and the fruit of mere human tradition. As Christ warns, “[F]or the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God” (Mt. 15:6).
These views are held by very sincere Christians, men and women with whom we are united in Baptism. Catholics have an obligation to take these issues seriously.
When I began to investigate the teaching of purgatory, I knew that it wasn’t enough to simply ask, “Where in the Bible is purgatory?” As a Christian, the two most fundamental truths that I held were the Trinity — three Persons in one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit — and the Incarnation, that the eternal Son, at a point in history, took on human nature and became man like us in all things but sin. And yet the words “Trinity” and “Incarnation” were nowhere in Scripture. That is to say, the words weren’t, but the teachings were.
I now needed to go to the Bible and examine whether the teaching of purgatory — whether the word was there or not — was to be found in the teachings of Christ and the apostles. I began to search the Gospels to see if Jesus gave any teachings concerning judgment or purification at the end of our earthly life. I began to see that several of Our Lord’s teachings, far from disproving purgatory, seemed to point to the possibility that there might be some debt of justice that would be paid after our earthly life.
As Christ teaches about the importance of forgiveness, He gives the example of a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves. He brought in a man who owed a great deal of money and forgave him the debt. The forgiven man in turn went out and met one of his fellow slaves, who owed him but a fraction of the amount, and demanded repayment. The just king summoned his slave back and said,
“You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me; and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?” And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt (Mt. 18:32-34).
What was Jesus talking about? Scripture clearly teaches, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 8:1). And yet Our Lord Himself gives the example of a man who had been forgiven, afterward acted unjustly, and finally was handed over to repay all that he owed.
Again in St. Luke’s Gospel, Our Lord challenges His followers to make peace with one another, so that they will not be handed over to the magistrate who would throw them into prison: “I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper” (Lk. 12:59; cf. Mt. 5:26). Christ calls the believer, who has passed out of condemnation — the sentence of hell — to live a life of justice which will be exacted to the last cent. If this is not the case, then the teachings of Jesus make no sense. The Catholic teaching about purgatory is that if, at the end of a Christian’s earthly life, this debt of justice was not satisfied, he shall be purified in purgatory before entering heaven. The teachings of Christ did not seem to contradict this. But lack of contradiction is still a long way from proof.

@italo , woky, ubenedictus ,free radical and others. Now i'd give u this answer. How funny you all are twisteing the bible..nevertheless take a look at this. The typical conversation between a roman catholic and non-catholic goes something like this:
Non-Catholic:“So you’re a Roman Catholic?”
Roman Catholic:“That’s right. I’m even a Notre Dame fan.”
NC:“Do you believe everything the Church teaches?”
RC:“Well, yeah, I guess so.”
NC:“Even purgatory?”
RC:“I think so.”
NC:“Well, let me get this straight. You believe in an all-loving God, don’t you?”
RC:“Yeah!”
NC:“Do you believe that this God sent His only begotten Son to die for you?”
RC:“Sure!”
NC:“So let me get this straight: You believe in an all-loving God, who loved you so much that He sent His only begotten Son to die for you, just so you can go to heaven when you die. Yet, this loving God first sticks you in a ‘cosmic oven’ and bakes you for a couple hundred years or so until you’re done?”
RC:“Well, I’ve never really thought about it that way.”
NC:“Where in the Bible does it say ‘purgatory’?”
About this time, our Catholic friend is looking for someplace to hide! He seems to have three equally unsatisfactory options. Option number one is blind faith: “I don’t know why I believe it, but I’m going to keep right on believing it anyway. After all, I’m Catholic, so don’t confuse me with the facts!”
Option two is an over-confident triumphalism: “Silly Fundamentalist! Where in the Bible really!”
The third option is to run for the hills.
Each of these options fails to take the situation seriously. Blind faith ignores the importance of an answer. Triumphalism ignores the importance of the question. And running away fails to see the importance of reality.
There is, however, another way: the way of constructive apologetics, which takes the question and the answer very seriously, and prayerfully begins to search the sacred texts and the storehouses of apostolic Tradition to find the truth about these important issues.
The case against purgatory seems to be based on three major objections. First, the teaching of purgatory seems to contradict the finished work of Christ and offend the basic understanding of God as a loving, all-caring, all-merciful God who has forgiven our sins in Christ Jesus. Second, purgatory seems to offer a “second chance” for those who did not follow Christ in this life. Third, purgatory does not appear to be a biblical teaching. Before examining the truth about purgatory, let’s take a look at these objections and see why they should be taken seriously.
Scripture stresses the truth of God’s love, and Evangelical Protestants have frequently had a powerful experience of Christ’s forgiveness. St. John explains: “In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his son to be the expiation for our sins” (1 Jn. 4:10). Jesus Christ Himself stresses mercy over judgment, stating,
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life” (Jn. 5:24).
Scripture teaches us about a God who “so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life” (Jn. 3:16). The Christian believer is called to accept the mercy of God as all-powerful, capable of overcoming all sin, and yet the Catholic who holds the teaching of purgatory seems to belittle God’s forgiveness. From this perspective, God appears almost schizophrenic, wanting to forgive our sins and yet meticulously hold us accountable for them, at one time cleansing us from all unrighteousness (cf. 1 Jn. 1:9) and then later deciding to “fry us” for displeasing Him. Have we “passed out of judgment” (cf. Jn. 5:24) or haven’t we? Has Christ forgiven our sins, or hasn’t He?
The second objection against purgatory is that it is a manufactured second chance. If you don’t really want to follow Christ, you can still get to heaven through the “backdoor.” Yet Scripture is clear that spiritual mediocrity is unacceptable (cf. Rev. 3:15-16). Jesus calls for complete commitment. He is either Lord of all, or He isn’t Lord at all. There is no second chance; we are either for Christ or against Him (cf. Lk. 11:23). The doctrine of purgatory seems to be an “end run.” But Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me” (Jn. 14:6).
The third argument against the doctrine of purgatory flows from a main dogma of Protestant theology, sola scriptura (“the Bible alone”). After all, where in the Bible do we find purgatory? A quick word check in any concordance will demonstrate that the word is nowhere to be found in Scripture. There’s no discussion of some third place between heaven and hell. Surely something as important as purgatory would be clearly taught in the pages of Scripture!

JMAN05: It is God who knows the heart, that is why I said that. The bible also supports salvation by grace, not so? I have not seen you prove from the bible against this. all I see is what you think you know without prove. Another person can as well come and say they will reincarnate, another can say they go to an underworld. So minus bible, why do you think that you are the only one with another unscriptural suggestion?

Prove purgatory, you cant. It is tradition.

exactly bro. The guy is just using his feeble human wisdom to explain all this.. And as u correctly, he cant proove the existence of purgatory. Because it is tradition. Even the ancient egyptians , when the catholic church had not started believed in praying for the dead and all that.

basildemaria: If I am right, why mavister refutes the teaching is because he tinks "this will cause people to have a wrong mindset,,nd do evil tinkin dey will end up nd pay in purgatory".

so you too know all this that it will mislead people making them live a careless chrictian life and u still continue peddling your lies? Purgatory is a traditional belief which started long ago from pagans even before the catholic church began..u need more explanation, tell me i'd give you

basildemaria: @mavister
u ar makin dis discussiom a one-way thing.....we are still on a topic,but u dont wnt others to have their say

hahahhah i dont want others to have their say? Or maybe u meant am not giving u the chance to twist the bible to ur tune. And how am i making the discussion a one way thing? U want me to calm down isn't it? Hehehe

basildemaria: No offence please,,but as regarding Paul's word, read 2 peter 3:16 there are some difficult things in his letter which unstable people explain falsely

this one always saying read this read that. Ever since u came on here, u havent even prooved a thing of the existence of purgatory. U only post some bible verses and 'waka pass' u ought to give us the indept explanation. You said their are some difficul thing in his letter which unstable people explain falsely. Am not surprised u made this statement. If u had the holy spirit indwelling in you, you u realize that the meaning of that passage doesnt in anyway relate to what your saying. U are not representing your church well here..

The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches false doctrine of "transubstantiation".The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches are bitterly divided to this very day over the Eucharist, both claiming their own "church tradition" is the correct one. Transubstantiation is a close cousin to Gnostic theology because both false doctrines claim that "things are not what they appear".
Not even John Paul II can make right, a baptism that is wrong according to the Bible!
Catholic Baptism is not Bible baptism!
The following list give a summation of what we have been trying to emphasize. If the Bible is a Catholic book, and if the bible was compiled by the catholics just as they said :
*.1. Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
*.2. Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
*.3. Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
*.4. Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
*.5. Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
*.6. Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
*.7. Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
*.8. Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
*.9. Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
*.10. Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
*.11. Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
*.12. Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
*.13. Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
*.14. Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?

basildemaria: @ mavister
Now that u v accepted evry1 must work on the Foundation which is Christ.....I would like to ask you,,, wat is d untrue element about purgatory?

now you come bro.. 1 Cor. 3:15.
"If any mans work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."
As with any verse in the Bible, to fully understand it, we must look at it in its biblical context. Following is 1 Cor. 3:10-15
"According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it.11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.12Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,13each mans work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each mans work.14If any mans work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward.15If any mans work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire."
The context speaks of Paul having planted the Corinthian church and that another person was building upon that work: verse 6 says,"I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth."Paul goes on to say that unless a person builds upon the foundation of Jesus, his work will be burned up the in the day of judgment (v. 13). See also, 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14; 1 Thess. 5:2).
Paul is simply using the terms that are familiar with the people of the time. Fire was the tool used to purify metals and to get rid of that which was unwanted, the dross. So too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both purify and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.
1 Cor. 3:15does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on "that day." Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw. What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved. It has to do with rewards in heaven.
Paul goes on to say in 1 Cor. 4:5,"Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of mens' hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God."
Note also, 1 Pet. 1:6-7,"In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,7that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ."
2 Pet. 3:10-13,"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells."
Purgatory is a dangerous doctrine that makes the Cross of Christ insufficient by requiring the person to undergo suffering in order to be made worthy of being with God. This is a false teaching and is to be avoided. We are justified by faith ( Rom. 5:1), not by faith and works ( Rom. 3:28).

I have been on this thread since morning and no catholic has bin able to vindicate himself on this subject matter. Well what a shame if u'd ask me for my comment on that..its really shameful

basildemaria: We shouldnt av experienced suffering or do any work since Christ has paid it all......2petr 4:12>>my dear friend,do not be surprised at the painful test u are suffering, as though something unusual were happening to you. Rather be glad that you are sharing Christ suffering......IF HE HAS PAID IT ALL,WHY MUST WE SHARE?

my good friend..i like your zeal. But please dont read your bible upside down. That suffering you see there directly means persecution as is far different from what we are saying here. As a christian, jesus is saying we would suffer persecution. Are u now relating that with ur purgatory? Dnt be confused my dear. See. Even apostle paul was percecuted. It is not because of his sins Every real child of God must go through one persecution or the other since christ went through it.and persecution is not done to som1 because of his/her sins ok. Stop confusing yourself bro.
Shalom

Fasholu: I tire for you..cos you didn't even read what I told you to read, You'e jealous of catholics cos you think they are taking the easy road to heaven,

lolz dont sound so pathetic bro. The race and journey to heaven is not an easy one. And even the bible says 'u must strive in to enter the gates' do u think jesus is a joker or clown for saying that? See one thing u dont seem to realize is that our God is no respecter of man..and he is a high-standard God. Stop using human ideology to evaluate the pre-requisites for one to enter heaven. God honors his word and as such, if ur gament is stained, forget it bro. There is no such thing as easy road to heaven because it will end u up in hell.there are no two ways about it. Saying am jealous of u catholics is only trying to digress from the subjest matter. If u have read all my previous posts.u would see beyond every doubt that i have stated point blank with cogent proofs that purgatory doesnt exist.

Fasholu: jesus is for sinners not for saints, Have you gone through life, People have to engage in sinful deeds just to make ends meet, Or do you think life is that that easy, not all christains can afford three square meals a day, whether you like it or not humans are gonna sin, the average man sins 7 times a day, even the vicar of christ, we're not angels na, we are not God, and only God is good, Our forefathers who died in sins without the chance to know Jesus, Where do you think they are going to, Purgatory of course, Cos you've gat to know the gravity of your sins, so that you can be corrected, Nothing defiled shall enter heaven..Man, So the purgatory is there to make you suffer for your sins so that you can be corrected and made pure to enter the kingdom of God.. Do you understand why there's a purgatory now?? #Proudly Catholic

bro..all these things you are saying will only have a negative effect on the feeble minded man in that you are giving him room to commit sin and say 'well, God understands,afterall i will suffer small in purgatory' kindly check the previous pages..my answers to this ur questions are there.. May God help u.amen

basildemaria: N.B>>Puratory is not for unbelievers,, it is for d saved souls,who have to be purified as a temporal purnishment for their sins......Heb 12:11>>when wr are purnished, it seems to us at that time to make us sad,not glad. Later, however those who have been disciplened by such purnishment reap the peaceful reward of a righteous life.

hahahha hear your self out bro. So what is the blood of jesus christ for?

basildemaria: Why there shouldnt be argument....d protestants have refused to accept the holyspirit

lol. Is that so? Bro i think any thing we say here should have backing ok ..yes. Now you said the protestants have refused to accept the holyspirit. I'd call this fallacy of a hasty generalization. Please kindly tell me how the protestants have refused to accept the holy spirit . Is it because u lack the ability to proove ur doctrine or the protestants dont agree to ur doctrine which made u say they have refused to accept the holy spirit? Pls reply .thank you in anticipation of ur answer.

basildemaria: the world cannot receive him because it cannot see him or know him(john 14:17).....Christ didnt teach evrything here while on earth because he told his disciples it will be too much for them to bear......he said "the helper whom the father will send in my name, will teach you everything and make you remember all that I have told you(John 14:26)

Now listen to this bro.. From that passage =even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you.
The Spirit of truth - The Spirit, or Holy Ghost, whose essential office is to manifest, vindicate, and apply the truth. The Gospel of Christ may be thus called, because it exposes falsity, removes error, and teaches the knowledge of the true God - shows the way to him, saves from vanity and illusive hopes, and establishes solid happiness in the
The Spirit of truth - He is thus called here because he would teach them the truth, or would guide them into all truth, John 16:13. He would keep them from all error, and teach them the truth, which, either by writing or preaching, they were to communicate to others.
The world - The term world is often used to denote all who are entirely
14:17 The Spirit of truth - Who has, reveals, testifies, and defends the truth as it is in Jesus. Whom the world - All who do not love or fear God, cannot receive, because it seeth him not - Having no spiritual senses, no internal eye to discern him; nor consequently knoweth him.
Now from all this , u and i know that purgatory does not exist in the bible and as such you have resorted to saying that the holy spirit inspired ur ancient catholics to say that purgatory exists. That is a lie and also blaspheming..u really need to ask God for forgiveness..ok now,if what u said that the holy spirit may have inspired men to say that purgatory exists then The men who wrote the bible who were inspied by the holy spirit , why did the same holy spirit not inspire them to write about purgatory in the bible since it is the same holy spirit? Or are there two holy spirits? Futhermore., the book of macabees which many of you point refrences to the existence of purgatory was added to the catholic bible in 1549 Ad before which the original, holy-spirit inspired bible had already been written . So what are you saying bro?

basildemaria: We can also see Jesus referring to purgatory here>>> Mathew 12:32....
Any one who sin against d son of man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the holyspirit will not be forgiven now or HEREAFTER......which shows dere is a temporary place for purification

bro let me reply you.

Matthew 12:32 does not prove purgatory; in fact, the expression "either in this world or in the world to come" does not imply that some sins are forgiven after death; however, it is a strong way of stating the truth that the unrepentant sinner will never be forgiven, as we see from the parallel passages of this Scripture (Luke 12:10, especiallyMark 3:29). Even according to Roman Catholic teaching, this Scripture could not refer to Purgatory, because Jesus speaks here of forgiveness, of which there is none in Purgatory, where the debt must be paid to the last "penny", either by the pains of torment or by the payment of living relatives, or a combination of the two.
Very significantly. Catholic theologians have had to rest their main argument for Purgatory upon a book which is acknowledged by all the best scholars to be apocryphal and without Biblical value for the majority of Christian believers. In fact, this passage about offering money to pray for the dead is sufficient to prove the lack of Divine inspiration in this book of the Machabees. No other book of Holy Scripture contains this doctrine, which is fundamentally opposed to Christian teaching. In fact, ask yourself why God would ask living believers to pay money to relieve people in Purgatory. What good is money to God, Who is outside of the Earthly realm where money can do anyone any good? In fact, to whom will the money go? Obviously, it could only go to the Church officials living in the here and now. This whole idea of teaching that the paying of money can relieve the suffering of loved ones in Purgatory just smacks of a money scheme.
The doctrine of Purgatory is not only without Biblical proof, but it is against the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture. the Bible nowhere speaks of a temporary place of punishment after death for believers; however, it does clearly state that when the believer dies, he enters into rest, and returns to God, a state of existence that no living loved one can effect in any way.
"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours ..." [Revelation 14:13]
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." [Ecclesiastes 12:7]

basildemaria: We can also see Jesus referring to purgatory here>>> Mathew 12:32....
Any one who sin against d son of man can be forgiven; but whoever says something against the holyspirit will not be forgiven now or HEREAFTER......which shows dere is a temporary place for purification

bro let me reply you.

Matthew 12:32 does not prove purgatory; in fact, the expression "either in this world or in the world to come" does not imply that some sins are forgiven after death; however, it is a strong way of stating the truth that the unrepentant sinner will never be forgiven, as we see from the parallel passages of this Scripture (Luke 12:10, especiallyMark 3:29). Even according to Roman Catholic teaching, this Scripture could not refer to Purgatory, because Jesus speaks here of forgiveness, of which there is none in Purgatory, where the debt must be paid to the last "penny", either by the pains of torment or by the payment of living relatives, or a combination of the two.
Very significantly. Catholic theologians have had to rest their main argument for Purgatory upon a book which is acknowledged by all the best scholars to be apocryphal and without Biblical value for the majority of Christian believers. In fact, this passage about offering money to pray for the dead is sufficient to prove the lack of Divine inspiration in this book of the Machabees. No other book of Holy Scripture contains this doctrine, which is fundamentally opposed to Christian teaching. In fact, ask yourself why God would ask living believers to pay money to relieve people in Purgatory. What good is money to God, Who is outside of the Earthly realm where money can do anyone any good? In fact, to whom will the money go? Obviously, it could only go to the Church officials living in the here and now. This whole idea of teaching that the paying of money can relieve the suffering of loved ones in Purgatory just smacks of a money scheme.
The doctrine of Purgatory is not only without Biblical proof, but it is against the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture. the Bible nowhere speaks of a temporary place of punishment after death for believers; however, it does clearly state that when the believer dies, he enters into rest, and returns to God, a state of existence that no living loved one can effect in any way.
"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours ..." [Revelation 14:13]
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." [Ecclesiastes 12:7]

Fasholu: Actually I can buttress my point but its not something I can just write here.

bro even your fellow disciples are trying to proove themselves here so why hoard your 'points'.well .hehehe its very clear u have no points to put forward. Now lemme create ur indulgence. Notwitstanding your defiance to the truth.it must be said. Kindly check the previous pages on this thread, u'l see my posts and backups to substantiate that purgatory is only an imagination of a beclowded mind void of truth.

Fasholu: But I can tell you one thing, You wanna know why I can support the catholic doctrine anytime anyday?.. Well read Matthew 16 verse 14 to 22, I believe what Jesus Christ told Saint Peter, And if you believe Jesus Christ you won't doubt whatever the Catholic church teaches you, N.B#If Jesus christ told saint peter that and saint peter started the catholic church.. Then the catholic is the true church. #Proudly catholic

bro . I have read that passage over and over evn in time pasts and it doesnt in anyway say that purgatory exists.
From your post.,it is crystal-clear that you are only in support of purgatory only because you are a member and would not want to be seen as defiant to that doctrine..well that is expected of you...but personally..i would feel very much ashamed if i cant strongly propose a doctrine on which i belieit simply means i am ignorant and need enlightenment...
I know many catholics are viewing this thread but they are scared of saying anything because they lack scriptural back-up..the rest who muffle some scriptures , italo and co only do so haven twisted such passages to their favour.. How i wish a catholic here could say somthing more reasonable on purgatory. Cos since today i havent seen anything convincing.. Could some1 call up a priest of father to come online here and help y'all cause no one is saying somfin here...thank you all

chukwudi44: i can also argue in the same vain that tthe bible is not biblical rather was a creation of the catholic church at thesynod of hippo in 393CE and Councils of carthage in 397 and 419 CE

now let me answer you. If ur ancient catholics compliled the bible just as u said, then why didnt they include the 'purgatoty' clearly in the bible since you all believe very much on that? While thinking on what to say to my question...
Let me chip in this also.

Roman Catholics often say that it was their church that gave us the Bible. They sometimes claim this when defending their "Sacred Tradition" so that they might support extra-biblical teachings such as purgatory, penance, indulgences, and Mary worship. They often say the only way the Christian church knew what books are to be included in the Canon of Scripture was because it was revealed by word-of-mouth in the early church; that is, by the tradition of the Catholic Church.
Unfortunately, this argument implies that tradition is superior to Scripture. Of course, we are not saying that the Roman Catholic church teaches that tradition is above Scripture. But when Sacred Tradition is claimed to be the thing by which Scripture is given, then tradition is inadvertently the thing that gives blessing and approval to the Bible. Heb. 7:7says,"But without any dispute the lesser is blessed by the greater."The unfortunate psychological effect of saying that Roman Catholic tradition is what gave us the Bible, is that it elevates their tradition to a level far greater than what is permitted in Scripture. In fact, it is contradicted by scripture:
"Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that in us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other,"( 1 Cor. 4:6).
The Bible tells us to obey the Word of God, to not go beyond the written Word ( 1 Cor. 4:6). Unfortunately, the problem with an elevated status of Roman Catholic church tradition is that it results in various justifications of it's non-biblical teachings such as prayer to Mary, purgatory, indulgences, penance, works of righteousness, etc. Because it has deviated from trusting God's Word alone, it has ventured into unscriptural areas. Nevertheless, did the Roman Catholic Church give us the Bible? No, it did not.
First of all, the Roman Catholic Church was not really around as an organization in the first couple hundred years of the Christian Church. The Christian church was under persecution and official church gatherings were very risky in the Roman Empire due to the persecution. Catholicism, as an organization with a central figure located in Rome, did not occur for quite some time, in spite of its claim they can trace the papacyback to Peter.
Second, the Christian Church recognized what was Scripture. It did not establish it. This is a very important point. The Christian Church recognizes what God has inspired and pronounces that recognition. In other words, it discovers what is already authentic. Jesus said"my sheep hear my voice and they follow me..."( John 10:27). The church hears the voice of Christ; that is, it recognizes what is inspired and it follows the word. It does not add to it as the Roman Catholic Church has done. Therefore, it is not following the voice of Christ.
Third, the Roman Catholic Church did not give us the Old Testament which is the Scripture to which Christ and the apostles appealed. If the Roman Catholic Church wants to state that it gave us the Bible, then how can they rightfully claim to have given us the Old Testament which is part of the Bible? It didn't, so it cannot make that claim. The fact is that the followers of God, the true followers of God, recognize what is and is not inspired.
Fourth, when the apostles wrote the New Testament documents they were inspired by the power of the Holy Spirit. There wasn't any real issue of whether or not they were authentic. Their writings did not need to be deemed worthy of inclusion in the Canon of Scripture by a later group of men in the so-called Roman Catholic Church. To make such a claim is, in effect, to usurp the natural power and authority of God himself that worked through the Apostles.
Fifth, the Scripture says,"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,21for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God,"( 2 Pet. 1:20-21). The Bible tells us that the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit. Therefore, the very nature of the inspired documents is that they carry power and authenticity in themselves. They are not given the power or the authenticity of ecclesiastical declaration.

free radical: @ mavister: bro u do know that if u believe in d trinity den u shud bow ur head in shame for all dis poo u said abt purgatory not used in d sense of d word in d bible because no where in the bible will u find d word trinity.

yes bro..the word 'trinity' is not written explicitly or in the bible.but should one now say there is no trinity? Am not giving you an excuse to say purgatory is real because its not in the bible.. Now Its just like saying ok. I dont see where the bible said one should not smoke so therefore smoking is not sin...my dear friend..every word and scripture in the bible is giving unto man to understand by the holy spirit..so if one who is not spirit filled reads the bible...he begins to contradict it.. Ok now.the bible says u should not put away your wife unless for adultery, so do u mean if ur wife commits adultery u just divorce her away because ''u saw it in the bible''? Alot of people are making lots of mistakes today because they lack the inspiration and insight of the holy spirit.. Let me leave u with some bible passages as assignment for u to know that the trinity is biblical. I pray the holy spirit opens ur eyes..amen

Genesis 1:26
"LetUSmake man inOURimage":Three plural pronouns,(We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8.The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that the Father was talking to Jesus.
Genesis 19:24
"Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. In this text Abraham is visited by three individuals, one being Yahweh and the other two angels. Here we have God on the earth (Jesus) and God in heaven (father) sending down fire from heaven. This incident when Abraham met with Yahweh God, is what Jesus referred to when he said,"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he sawitand was glad."(John 8:56)The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that Jesus visited Abraham in Genesis 18 and 19.
Isaiah 6
Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh, but John says that Isaiah really saw the glory of Christ. This proves Jesus is Yahweh. Combine this with the fact the Yahweh said, "Who will go for US" is a plural pronoun indicating more than one person in the Godhead.
Isaiah 40-55
Jesus echoes the "I AM" statements in Isaiah chapters 40-55. This spectacular link explores over 20 different passages in Isaiah and John.
Isaiah 45:23-24
I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. "They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame.
Micah 5:2
But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.
New Testament Trinity Proof Texts
Mark 2:5-12
Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sinsbut God alone?
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
John 5:18
For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 8:58
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he sawitand was glad."The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them,"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.
John 10:33
"I and the Father are one."The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. ...Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?"
John 12:41 + Isaiah 6
A simple reading of the context of John 12 makes it clear that John is saying that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus Christ himself in Isaiah 6.This proves Jesus is Yahweh.