₦airaland Forum

Fasholu: Italo, As much as I really really admire your zeal, I cannot help but think its getting too much, Look we live in an age where people are already wired to their beliefs, there really nothing you can do to convince them and vice versa, so just leave them to find the truth themselves, The catholic church is the ark of salvation for all, no doubt about that, but people just have to find that out themselves.. And to the #OP# Purgatory has got to exist, cos if it doesn't ehn, we're all going to hell, I can't say where it is in the bible( don't like reading it, I'm too foolish to understand), but jesus said #Nothing defiled shall enter heaven#, those who die in venial sin go there so that they can suffer for their sins.. I don't quote the bible to people, But its the truth..It might be had for you to believe..but you've got to believe it, To deny it is to deny yourself of heaven, cos no one is a saint, we are all sinners Including me, It is just to make heaven easier to get to..May(TO THOSE WHO WANNA QUOTE ME, PLEASE DON'T DRAW COMPARISONS, DO ANYTHING BUT DON'T COMPARE ME TO ANYONE AND UMMM ITALO SERIOUSLY I REALLY REALLY REALLY ADMIRE YOU OOO YOU JUST CAN'T IMAGINE#,May our Lord Jesus be with us, #Proudly Catholic

see my friend. I appreciate your loyalty to your doctrine as much as you exalt your fellow disciple .but this is not a football club wher one has fans and all that. U only suceeded in exalting italo, of which am not angry about without giving us concrete proofs to substantiate the existence of purgatory..i mean.its rather absurd for one to believe in a doctrine which he himself cannot defend in public...as christians..the bible is the basis for any debate in christiandom.. So please..buttress your points with cogent and substantial bible passages to show us that yes, there really is a purgatory..
And please bro..if u do find any bible passages, that is if there are any. Pls try not to twist it in a bid to favour u just as your fellow disciples have done. Thank you..

italo: @ mavister,

The question I asked you was: where is 1Cor3:15 talking of?

1 Corinthians 3:15, another passage you have cited in support of Purgatory, is about works being evaluated. Paul uses the imagery of fire, but the works are burned, not the person. Since Paul writes that even a person without any good works can be saved (1 Corinthians 3:15), as long as he's resting on the foundation of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 3:11), the passage actually contradicts Catholic teaching about salvation and works rather than supporting your Catholic teaching about Purgatory.
The truth is that there is no Purgatory. Even when the apostle Paul knew he was imperfect (Philippians 3:12), he knew he would go to be with the Lord when he died (Philippians 1:21-23). We read in scripture:
"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple" - Revelation 7:14-15
People go to Heaven because of what Christ has done for them, not because of what they've done for Christ. The ungodly person who believes in Christ while not working (Romans 4:5-6) is assured of avoiding God's wrath (Romans 5:9-10) as a free gift of God's grace (Romans 6:23). God invites anybody who thirsts to...
"take the water of life without cost" - Revelation 22:17

italo: At least, you didnt know that. It doesn't make the sin more grevious.

What if he leaves immediately and then the decking of our your sitting room collapses exactly where he would have been sitting.

Would that make your lie a good thing.

People even die from the effects of other people's intention to do good. Would it turn the good to sin?

The important thing is the intent, not effect.

God is not inconsiderate like you.

bro.lets go back in time a little..

I felt like laughing on top of my voice when I read a portion of the comments and defenses of some devout catholics in a book which follows:
Reply:
Purgatory is biblical. It comes from latin; Purgationem Peccatorum.
Heb 1:3 “qui cum sit splendor gloriae et figura substantiae eius portansque omnia verbo virtutis suae PURGATIONEM PECCATORUM faciens sedit ad dexteram Maiestatis in excelsis”
Translation:
Heb 1:3 “Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself PURGED OUR SINS, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
By merely looking at the verse and using 5% of the 100% capacity of our brains to discern and understand things, you can easily notice that the person who posted his defense in favor of the Catholic Church’s doctrine of purgatory is only a confused fellow.

Does the Latin term“purgationem peccatorum”mean purgatory? Translated into English, it is“purged our sins,”not purgatory! And who purged our sins? According to the verse, “He” referring to Christ, purged our sins. Aren’t you implying now, whoever you are, that Christ is purgatory? Oh, come on!
And notice the verse that says, after purging our sins “He sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high.” Will that imply now that purgatory is in the throne of God? Come on! Catholic doctrine defines purgatory as a place between heaven and hell so it cannot be sitting in the throne of God.
Take note that it is the Council of Trent of the Catholic Church, not the Bible, that asserted the doctrine of purgatory!
The greatest of the Malayan race, Dr. Jose Protacio Rizal, in his famous book, Noli Me Tangere, said categorically after reading the whole Bible that there is no purgatory in the Bible! Mind you, Dr. Rizal speaks more than 22 languages. He surely is knowledgeable of Latin and Spanish. And he said purgatory is not in the Bible as Rizal is neither inane nor insane.
The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is not founded on Biblical teachings. The alleged mention of praying for the dead in the book of Maccabeus, (this book is not part of the Bible until the Catholic Church included it in 1546) does not in any manner imply that there is a purgatory!
Praying for the dead was never a part of the Christian doctrine! The Lord Jesus Christ, or anyone of His apostles, never taught any idea of it!
I CORINTHIANS 4:6 (REVISED STANDARD VERSION)
I have applied all this to myself and Apol’los for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.
The word purgatory cannot be found in the writings of the apostles nor have the slightest idea of it!
If Christians are to be purged from their sins, it has to be in this life and not in the hereafter. It is through the atoning power of the death of Christ that we are purged from our sins, not in purgatory.
HEBREWS 10:10-12
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;
ISAIAH 53:3-5
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
“and with his stripes we are healed”not by purgatory!
I CORINTHIANS 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures;
The sufferings of Christ and the offering of His body is sufficient to purge our sins!

One thing i have discovered is that some of this religious fanatics peddling this fallacy on the existence of purgatory know the truth is far fetched from what they are saying. The basis here is that they cant even muster the courage to walk up to their priests for proof on the existence of purgatory and moreso, they have been born in the catholic church and as such, for all their lives have been fed with such dish that anything else from that is lies even when they see it to be the truth. One may ask me why am i bothering my self posting all this? Is he in a bid to win them over to his side? No not at all..like a friend said..serve your God ..let me serve mine.. Am doing all this cause there are many who dont even know where they stand. They dont know what to believe.and if left to this false prophets..they will be misled... Please every one... Lets be wise.. I pray the holy spirit opens the eyes of any one who is still confused..amen
shalom

"In pagan Rome, Purgatory was equally held up before the minds of men; but, there seems to have been no hope held out to any of exemption from its pains." [Alexander Hislop, "The Two Babylons", page 167].
"In Egypt, substantially the same doctrine of Purgatory was inculcated. But when once this doctrine of Purgatory was admitted into the popular mind, then the door was opened for all manner ofpriestly extortions. Egyptian prayers for the dead ever go hand in hand with Purgatory; but no prayers can be completely efficacious without the interposition of the priests; and no priestly functions can be rendered unless there be special pay for them. Therefore, in every land we find the pagan priesthood 'devouring widows' houses' and making merchandise of the tender feelings of sorrowing relatives, sensitively alive to the immortal happiness of the beloved dead." [Ibid, pages 167-168]
When I looked in the encyclopedia under "Purgatory", I discovered a link to Hinduism and Buddhism that I did not realize existed. "Hindus and Buddhists, who believe in the transmigration of souls, also believe in heavens and hells where those souls who are not immediately reborn, spend time, according to their deserts [works] before their next incarnation. These are, in effect, the equivalent of purgatory because they are temporal states in the soul's long progress toward eventual salvation." [The Encyclopedia Americana, International Version, Volume 23, "Purgatory" article, page 19, 1997]. Did you notice the words, "not immediately reborn" in this definition of the Pagan Purgatory of Hinduism and Buddhism? This term is exactly the teaching as to why a Catholic needs Purgatory, I.e., their souls are not yet purified enough to go right to heaven. Thus, you can add the false religions of Hinduism and Buddhism to the list of Pagan religions, above, that taught Purgatory. PurgatoryIS PAGAN.
Thus, my dear Catholic friends, you can see two things as a result of reading these articles on Purgatory. First, you can see that Purgatory has no Biblical basis. Second, you can see that Ancient Mystery religions invented Purgatory several thousand years before the Roman Catholic Church began to espouse it. Purgatory is only one of many Roman Catholic teachings that originated in Ancient Paganism. But, this is certainly one major teaching that is Pagan, not Christian. All the Catholic Church did was resurrect this Pagan teaching with Christian names and with certain verses twisted to make them say what they never said.
Thereality, as taught in Scripture, isfar more blessedfor the Born Again Christian, andfarmore serious for the unredeemed. The Redeemed, Born Again Christian, has had his sins completely forgiven and forgotten by Jesus Christ, and he most assuredly does not pass by any Judgment Bar, nor does he receive any Judgment whatsoever. Because Jesus' blood sacrifice alsopaid the sin debt fully, he passes immediately to Paradise, just as Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross! However, the unredeemed soul passes immediately into Hell, where he is tormented continually until the Great White Throne Judgment, where he will be judged according to his own works, deeds, thoughts, and motives. Then, he will be thrown alive into the fire of brimstone, for eternity, where his torment will never cease!
The Truth is the Best of all News on the one hand, and the Worst of all News on the other. The dividing point is the moment of physical death. Dear friend, we beg of you to understand the Biblical Truth we have just shared with you, and accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, trusting in Him and His sacrificeALONEfor your salvation, not on any works the Catholic Church tells you that you must do, but upon His sacrificeALONE.
Jesus paid the sin debt in full!
"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." [John 8:32]
If you have never accepted Jesus Christ as Savior, but have come to realize His reality and want to accept His FREE Gift of Eternal Life, you can also do so now, in the privacy of your home. Once you accept Him as Savior, you are spiritually Born Again, and are as assured of Heaven as if you were already there. Then, you can rest assured that nothing will not hurt you spiritually. You will also know the greatest heart peace that the greatest God can give to one of His own children. Please do not be decieved by anyone cause every man to him self on d last day.. There are lots of false teachings going around which gives room for sin..depart from such and God will see u true.. Stay blessed..

BIBLE DRAWS NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN SINS
According to the Bible, there is no distinction drawn between mortal and venial sins. It is true that not all sins are equally heinous in character; at the same time, it is equally true that all sins bring death to the soul. The Jews did worse than their forefather; those who betrayed Jesus Christ committed a greater sin than did Pilate. But who would dare say that because of this, the early Hebrews and Pilate committed only easily pardonable or mere "venial" sins?
Certainly, the Apostle Paul makes no distinction between sins when he says, "The wages of sin is death." [Romans 6:23] Again, in Galatians 3:10, he says, "For all who depend upon works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, 'Cursed be everyone who does not persevere in doing all the things written in the book of the law.' " [The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press] Then, in James 2:10, we read, "For whosoever keeps the whole law, but falls short in one particular, has become guilty in respect to it all." [The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press]
The disobedience of Adam and Eve in eating the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden appears to be a very small sin. Yet, just as God warned, they ultimately died because of that sin, and death and sin were permanently introduced into the world by every person born. The consequences of their sin were absolutelyENORMOUS,MONSTROUS!! Therefore, the supposed distinction between mortal and venial sins is arbitrary and absurd. This distinction is totally without merit in either logic or Scripture.
But, when we look at the financial result of this teaching, we can see why the Roman Catholic Church is so interested in continuing to teach that there is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. The apostasy of the Church of Rome in this matter is rooted in its desire for money and power over people. The invention of venial sin made the teaching of Purgatory possible -- the fire of which does not consume the poor souls of departed loved ones, but rather keeps the coffers full of cash.
You see, it is absolutely impossible to make money out of the true Biblical teaching that there is no distinction between sins; that Hell for all eternity is for unbelievers and Heaven for all believers in the saving power of Jesus Christ. Souls safely in Heaven do not need the masses of priests on earth, and souls in Hell cannot be released by the ministrations of priests nor the burning of candles before the shrines of the Virgin Mary and the saints. But, if there are sins that make a man not good enough for Heaven, and yet not bad enough for Hell, then it isnecessary to invent a placewhere those who die with venial sins unforgiven must go to be purged.
Then, the gold really accumulates in the Church coffers. It is easy to say that these souls in Purgatory cannot help themselves , nor can God help them; but, they can be helped by a priest on earth saying Mass for them. The offering for a Requiem Mass may be anything from $5 on up, depending on "how much the traffic will bear".
Purgatory is a gold mine for the Roman Catholic Church. But Purgatory would be of little value were it not for themagical distinctionbetween mortal and venial sins, the teaching of the Bible notwithstanding. This false teaching casts great dishonor on the redeeming work of Jesus Christ. Purgatory subtracts from the fullness, and the perfect nature, of Jesus' love for His church, plus it is a denial of the complete and sufficient nature of His sacrifice and His work as Intercessor. [SeeRC111a"Is There A Purgatory, Part 2", for thorough study on the wonderful fact that Jesus paid theFULLpenalty of sin!]
The Roman Catholic Church cannot even take credit for being the first to invent this money making doctrine of Purgatory. Rather, we find that this teaching existed first in Ancient Paganism, from Babylon, to Greece, to Egypt and to Roman mythology. Pagan Rome had a feast of purification called "Sacrum Purgatorium". Reverend Alexander Hislop notes, in his book, "The Two Babylons": "Go wherever we may, in ancient or modern times, we shall find that paganism leaves hope after death for sinners who, at the time of their departure, were consciously unfit for the abodes of the blest. For this purpose, a middle state has been feigned, in which, by means of purgatorial pains, guilt unremoved in time may, in a future world, be purged away, and the soul be meet for final beatitude."

Then, this confusing and unscriptural doctrine of purgatory continues: Two kinds of punishment are due to mortal sin: eternal (in Hell forever), and temporary (in Purgatory). Eternal punishment is canceled by the "sacraments" of Baptism and Extreme Unction, or by an act of perfect contrition with promise of confession.
Temporary punishment is not canceled by these sacraments, but by works of penance, by almsgiving, by paying a priest to say Mass, by indulgences, etc., which reduce the temporal punishment for mortal sins that would have to be suffered in Purgatory. Thus, even if all the mortal sins of a Roman Catholic are "forgiven" in confession by a priest, but the parishioner does not perform enough of these "good works", he will go to Purgatory and remain there in torture until his soul is completely purified.
Roman Catholic theologians attempt to prove the doctrine of venial sin and temporal punishment of venial and mortal sins after death, by quoting the following Scripture:
Jeremiah said of the Jews: "They did worse than their fathers." [Jeremiah 7:26, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press]
Jesus said to Pilate: "For this reason, he who handed me over to you has the greater sin." [John 19:11, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press]
In many other passages of the Bible, we also read that it is possible to sin and still remain just, but since no one can commit a mortal sin and be just at the same time, there must be some distinction between sins that kill the soul and change a man from being just to unjust, and other sins that a just man can commit and yet remain just. In Proverbs 24:16, we read, "For the just man falls seven times and rises again ..." [Proverbs 24:16, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press]. And, in James 3:2, we read, "for we all fall short in many respects" [The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press].
Then, Jesus warned, "I tell you, on the day of judgment, people will render an account of every careless word they speak." [Matthew 12:36, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press]
Thus, Catholic theologians have concluded that every careless or idle word surely cannot be a mortal sin, deserving of death.

The doctrine of Purgatory is not only without Biblical proof, but it is against the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture. the Bible nowhere speaks of a temporary place of punishment after death for believers; however, it does clearly state that when the believer dies, he enters into rest, and returns to God, a state of existence that no living loved one can effect in any way.
"Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours ..." [Revelation 14:13]
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." [Ecclesiastes 12:7]
Now read the text of the picture the Lord paints of the rich man and Lazarus, both of whom died and went immediately to their respective places. The unredeemed rich man went to Hell while Lazarus went to Heaven, also known as Abraham's Bosom. Even though the rich man pleaded with Abraham for some relief, Abraham refused to help him in any way, stating that a great gulf had been fixed between the two places, which prevented anyone from going to and forth, in either direction. Jesus gave no hint that the rich man would someday get out of Hell. Certainly, if Purgatory really existed, this story would have given Jesus the perfect opportunity to tell us about it. Do you realize that Jesus Christ preached more on Hell and punishment than all the other writers in the Bible added together? Yet, He nowhere gives us any indication of a place of punishment of limited time, after which the person goes to Heaven.
NO ONE CAN REDEEM HIS SOUL, NOR THAT OF HIS BROTHER
Of all the verses in the Bible that reveal the falsity of Purgatory, this verse, given below, reveals it completely. Listen carefully: "One cannot redeem oneself, to pay God a ransom. Too high the price to redeem a life; one would never have enough to stay alive forever and never see the pit." [Psalm 49:10, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press].
The traditional King James Version is a little more clear: "None of them canby any meansredeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:" Yet, this is exactly what poor Roman Catholics are attempting to do as they pay good money to get their loved ones out of this supposed place called Purgatory!!
According to this Scripture, and other verses, no one can satisfy for the punishment due to our sins, since Jesus Christ our Savior has satisfied for us freely and completely, by His sacrifice on the cross. No works that we could possibly do on earth, even if we were a Mother Teresa, and certainly not Purgatory, can ever redeem our souls from foul sin. Our faith in Jesus Christaloneobtains forgiveness for us, not anything we can do. "For by grace are you saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the [free] gift of God. it isnot from works, so no one may boast." [Ephesians 2:8-9, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press]
"All have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justifiedfreelyby his grace through the redemption in Jesus Christ." [Romans 3:23-24, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press].
"For byone offeringhe has madeperfectthose who are being consecrated." [Hebrews 10:14, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press]
"Hence, there is nowno condemnationfor those who are in Christ Jesus." [Romans 8:1, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press]. Please think carefully about this verse. PurgatoryISa condemnation, albeit supposedly temporary. But, the Bible says that there isNOcondemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus! Jesus Himself told us this wonderful truth. "Whoever believes in Him [Jesus Christ, speaking of Himself] willnot be condemned." [John 3:18, The New American Bible, Catholic Bible Press]. Since Purgatory is a condemnation, it does not, indeed cannot, exist!
The invention of Purgatory is not based on the Bible, but it is based upon other inventions of the Roman Catholic Church, i.e., venial sin and temporary punishment of sin after death. According to Roman Catholic theologians, a person can commit two kinds of sins against God: mortal and venial. Mortal sin is a grave offense against the law of God or of the Church. It is called, "Mortal" because it kills the soul by depriving it entirely of sanctifying grace. Venial sin is a small and pardonable offense against God and the laws of the Church.

Catholic theologians point to Matthew 5:25-26 as the basis for Purgatory. Let us review that Scripture:
"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, until thou hast paid the uttermost farthing." [Matthew 5:25-26. This "prison" thus implied in this Scripture is supposed to be Purgatory. The implication in this Scripture is also that, eventually, the prisoner will pay his final bill and be set free. This implication is held to be consistent with the teaching of Purgatory, that it is not eternal, and eventually, everyone will get out of it, and go on to Heaven, perfectly purified.
Catholic theologians also point to Jesus' enunciation of the Unpardonable Sin as proof for Purgatory. Let us quickly review this Scripture.
"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." [Matthew 12:32] This reference to two worlds is held to be proof of Purgatory.
This is the supposed Biblical basis for Purgatory. The remainder of the argument for Purgatory is based upon the Machabees, which are not recognized as Holy Scripture by any church in the world save the Roman Catholic Church, and upon Church Tradition, which is also unreliable because it was written by men, not God, and was written after the Apostles passed from the scene, thus closing the Canon. [See"Sola Scriptura", RC101afor full details]
Now, let us examine these two Scriptural texts, given above, to see if they really prove a Purgatory, or whether they are referring to another meaning. Matthew 5:25 does not refer to a Roman Catholic Purgatory, but tells us that a sinner is a debtor to God, His Creditor. The sinner is cast into prison until he pays the last penny, which is forever because he does not have the resources to pay the final bill. The word, "until" does not necessarily imply a definite or temporary period of time. In many passages of the Bible, the word, "until" clearly denotes that which is done, without any regard to the future. For instance, God says: "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Shall His Divine Son sit no longer after His enemies are subdued? Obviously not. Therefore, the word, "until" cannot be interpreted in Matthew 5:25 as denoting a limited period of time, i.e. Purgatory.
Even Matthew 12:32 does not prove purgatory; in fact, the expression "either in this world or in the world to come" does not imply that some sins are forgiven after death; however, it is a strong way of stating the truth that the unrepentant sinner will never be forgiven, as we see from the parallel passages of this Scripture (Luke 12:10, especiallyMark 3:29). Even according to Roman Catholic teaching, this Scripture could not refer to Purgatory, because Jesus speaks here of forgiveness, of which there is none in Purgatory, where the debt must be paid to the last "penny", either by the pains of torment or by the payment of living relatives, or a combination of the two.
Very significantly. Catholic theologians have had to rest their main argument for Purgatory upon a book which is acknowledged by all the best scholars to be apocryphal and without Biblical value for the majority of Christian believers. In fact, this passage about offering money to pray for the dead is sufficient to prove the lack of Divine inspiration in this book of the Machabees. No other book of Holy Scripture contains this doctrine, which is fundamentally opposed to Christian teaching. In fact, ask yourself why God would ask living believers to pay money to relieve people in Purgatory. What good is money to God, Who is outside of the Earthly realm where money can do anyone any good? In fact, to whom will the money go? Obviously, it could only go to the Church officials living in the here and now. This whole idea of teaching that the paying of money can relieve the suffering of loved ones in Purgatory just smacks of a money scheme.

Italo.listen to this

(Hebrews 9:27 NIV) Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
As this passage shows once you die it is all over and you will face judgment, there are no second chances or purgatory. Plus the Bible tells us that Jesus paid the whole price for our salvation, so there is no reason for us to suffer in purgatory if we believe in Him. Now let me show you a story that Jesus told:
(Luke 16:19-31 NIV) [19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
[25] "But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. [26] And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
[27] "He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, [28] for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'
[29] "Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'
[30] "'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
[31] "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'"
Notice that both the rich man and Lazarus were awake and neither were in purgatory. The rich man was in hell and Lazarus was in Paradise. Now look at this:
(Luke 23:42-43 NIV) [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in Paradise that day. Now remember the story Jesus told and you will see where the thief was going to be.
But why were they in Paradise and not in heaven? Well it was because Jesus had not died yet.
Before Jesus died only the High Priest could enter into God's presence and he could only do it once a year. The Holy of Holies was separated from the rest of the Temple by a large heavy curtain. But something special happened when Christ died for us:
(Matthew 27:50-51 NIV) [50] And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
[51] At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.
That opened God's presence to all of us. That is what reconciled us to Him, through the blood of Jesus Christ. Without reconciliation we would not be able to come into God's presence. That is why the Old Testament Saints could not go to heaven, they were separated from God because of their sins which still needed to be paid for. But look at this:
(Ephesians 4:8 NIV) This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men."
Those captives were the people from Paradise that He took to heaven. Now when we die if we are believers we go straight to heaven because we have been reconciled through Jesus' death.
That is where the passage you mentioned comes in:
(2 Corinthians 5:8 NIV) We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

italo: Is Jesus giving people license to sin because he says he will forgive our sins over and over if we ask?

The truth must be preached.

bro..see ehn. ( not trying to justify those who sin and ask for forgiveness always) but come to think of it.. A sinner who sins and repents and sins...though its bad.. Atleast the sinner knows he is guilty and repents only that he/she cant leave that sin.. God can come to the aid of such a person and restore him/her permanently .isnt that better than believing in a fallacy and dying only to end up in hell? U tell me

skydeexie: Italo, you are tired man, go and take some rest for now!

Why on earth will God send His Son to come and die for our sins, only to have these same sins being forgiven half way or not fully at all.

Stop twisting the scriptures and the simple Gospel of Salvation and thereby misleading many to hell.

What is the point of Christ death on the Cross?

Rom. 6:23 (KJV) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"

Let me also quote from the same book of 1st John in the Bible that you have been using as your support:

1 John 3:1-10 (KJV)

"1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (Your purgatory doctrine flies out of the window here)

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

(Emphasis in red mine.)

Let the Bible speak for itself and not replace it with the doctrine of demons and traditions of men in 'holy' garbs.

exactly bro.the guy knows all this are the home truth but he doesnt want to be seen as one who has lost a case. Quite funny

italo: Dear friend, I dont know what is wrong with you but I know you aren't blind.

Why do you pretend as if you dont know that it was kingk who first talked about Jesus and the thief...and it was Lady excellence who brought up the Mary issue.

Then you accuse me of being the one diverting.

Why are you such a hypocrite?

please do not resort to insults or derogatory statements bro. Kindly use that time to give ME scriptural proof on the existence of 'purgatory'..remain blessed.

italo: Lol...

My dear friend, every devout Catholic strives for heaven, not purgatory.

Every devout Catholic strives to do God's will for love of God, not for what we can gain (heaven, material things, spiritual favours etc) or lose (hell, spiritual losses, material losses etc).

Nobody has ever being taught that it's okay to relax and go to purgatory.

However, we must preach what we know. Purgatory exists and we must say it.

bro and as u preach..it sure would have an effect on u and everyone who believes you. Why do i say so? I say so cus Gods standard is very high (for our God is a consuming fire) and i put it to u that God is merciful but just.. So by preaching such. U are giving people the idea that they can go scot free even if by chance.they happen to commit ''small sins'....not funny

The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, …their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."

Anurugwo: Why do you worry if Purgatory exists or not? You should first live a Godly life.Then when you die, you can then know if there is purgatory or not when you get there. Or you fit die, go confirm then you come back and tell us.

lol..and it would be worse for one who believed in purgatory all his life and eventually died and discovered there is no purgatory..tel me what he/she will do. Wish italo could answer this

italo: Jesus said to the thief on Friday: "today, you will be with me in paradise."

Jesus said to Mary on Sunday: "I have not yet ascended to my Father."

Where were Jesus and the good thief between Friday and Sunday?

from all indications.it is crystal-clear that my brother is trying to digress from the main issue at hand probably to while away time..or to confuse..i wish he could give me something substantial to proove the existence of 'purgatory'...but he has failed to. Rather he is asking who did jesus deciples approach at cana and questions like that..i'd appreciate it if u can convince us here. Cause people are reading our posts. They know the truth... As a devout catholiv @italo. I expect u to quote bible verses not running away from the subjest matter..kindly read the topic of this thread..thankk you.and remain blessed

italo: I have given tonnes of scriptural evidence.

Read from 1st page.

bro..please let me ask you this. From all indication you are a devout catholic.yeah am not negating that. And you and i know that death is no respecter of age.. Now lets keep other things aside. As u believe in purgatory, i know fully well that ur life may not be completely right with God (please am not judging) because u would justify ur self by saying, afterall there is purgatory for me. Even if i die in dis small sin..i will still make heaven later. That may be at the back of your mind bro.. But let me ask you this SUPPOSE U DIE NOW, AND WITH ALL YOUR BELIEF OF PURGATORY PURGATORY AND U DISCOVER THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE AND U END UP IN HELL, WHAT WILL YOU DO?? PLS TEL ME BRO.. OR ON THE OTHER HAND U SERVE GOD WHOLEHEARTEDLY AND END UP IN HEAVEN AND U DISCOVER NO PURGATORY, WOULD U HAVE LOST ANYTHING? ASK YOURSELF THIS.. BECAUSE IF U DISCOVER AT THE END OF TIME THERE IS NO SUCH PLACE AS PURGATORY, OTHER PEOPLE WHOM YOU HAVE MISLED , GOD WILL ASK FOR THEIR BLOOD FROM YOU.. PLS THINK ABOUT THIS .THANKS AND GOD BLESS

mavister: The Roman Catholic church teaches that those who are perfect at death are admitted to heaven. Those who are not perfectly cleansed and are still tainted with the guilt of venial sins, however, do not go to heaven but rather go to purgatory where they allegedly go through a process of cleansing (or "purging". Such souls are oppressed with a sense of deprivation and suffer certain pain. How long they stay in purgatory - and how much suffering they undergo while there - depends upon their particular state of sin.
Roman Catholics also teach that a person's time in purgatory may be shortened, and his pains alleviated, by the faithful prayers and good works of those still alive. The sacrifice of the Mass is viewed as especially important in this regard. Catholics find support for this doctrine in the apocryphal book 2 Maccabees 12:42-45.
That purgatory is a false doctrine is easy to prove from the Scriptures. When Jesus died on the cross, He said "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do" (John 17:4). Hebrews 10:14 emphatically declares, "By one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy." Hence, those who believe in Christ are "made perfect" forever; no further "purging" is necessary. First John 1:7 says, "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Jesus took care of "purging" our sins by His work of salvation at the cross. Hebrews 1:3 affirms, "After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Jesus provided full purification for our sins.

and by saying this i do not mean 'once saved, always saved'...if u repent of ur sins and follow christ to the end.heaven is urs...and if u are even a reverend pastor, priest , evangelist and u commit a sin and die,,one way to hell...thank you lord

The Roman Catholic church teaches that those who are perfect at death are admitted to heaven. Those who are not perfectly cleansed and are still tainted with the guilt of venial sins, however, do not go to heaven but rather go to purgatory where they allegedly go through a process of cleansing (or "purging". Such souls are oppressed with a sense of deprivation and suffer certain pain. How long they stay in purgatory - and how much suffering they undergo while there - depends upon their particular state of sin.
Roman Catholics also teach that a person's time in purgatory may be shortened, and his pains alleviated, by the faithful prayers and good works of those still alive. The sacrifice of the Mass is viewed as especially important in this regard. Catholics find support for this doctrine in the apocryphal book 2 Maccabees 12:42-45.
That purgatory is a false doctrine is easy to prove from the Scriptures. When Jesus died on the cross, He said "It is finished" (John 19:30). Jesus completed the work of redemption at the cross. In His high priestly prayer to the Father, Jesus said, "I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do" (John 17:4). Hebrews 10:14 emphatically declares, "By one sacrifice he has made perfect for ever those who are being made holy." Hence, those who believe in Christ are "made perfect" forever; no further "purging" is necessary. First John 1:7 says, "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." Romans 8:1 says, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
Jesus took care of "purging" our sins by His work of salvation at the cross. Hebrews 1:3 affirms, "After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Jesus provided full purification for our sins.

italo: Between the doctrine of purgatory (Catholicism), and the doctrine of "Once saved always saved,"(Protestantism) which one encourages sin more?

Be honest.

We say if a believer sins unto death, he is headed for hell; they say a believer is destined for heaven even though he kills a whole continent.

my brother u are getting all wrong. If u say protestants believe in 'once save always saved'....is that a yardstick for u to be spreading unscriptural statements.. Personally am a protestant and i will disagree with you... I dnt believe in 'once save, always saved' as u put it..what i believe and which is biblical is that if u as a righteous man comits sin..that mares ur christian life...and u need repentance..and consequently if u as a sinner repents no matter the sin..and u decide to follow God...ur sins are forgiven..havent u seen armed robbers becoming evangelists? Because of the blood of christ...i think what ur trying to imply is that a gross sinner if he/she comes unto God cannot be forgiven wholly.... And will still be purnished in where u call 'purgatory'....a really sorry for u bro...i pray the holy ghost gives u d understanding in the bible.. Because u are contradicting the bible.. Thank you bro

Adunbi2: Yes their is pugatory, if u wnt to knw more i will orientate u, pugatory is evn worst dan hell, it is 4 dose who sin and ask 4 forgivnes but their sin av not been 4given totaly, dey we av to go 2ru some pain dea, dat is y it is encoraging to pray 4 d those dat av die no 1 knw if they are in pugatory

Hello all..
This issue of purgatory is a very serious and delicate one as many are confused and have been led away from the truth.
Now the big question is what is purgatory
According to the catholic doctrine, purgatory is a place, probably a geographical space in the spiritual realm where wrong doers (people who commited little sins in their life time here on earth) are kept temporarily and retributed for their sins for a period of time before they are now sent to heaven. Having understood what purgatory means, i'd like to expantiate clearly on this.
Now we all go to church and as such we cant say we are ignorant of God's word.even if we are, we have a conscience to know what is good and bad and avoid the bad. Our God is no respecter of persons, age, status etc. And as such no sin is too big or small in the eyes of God. Now God is not a man and the way we look at sin is not the way God looks at sin. We humans tend to classify sins under big and small sins but the almighty God generalizes sins and even a small lie has same gravity as murder. That is God for you. Secondly, if you believe in this doctrine of purgatory, that means u are indirectly saying that God counts small sins and counts big sins as different and dishes out different punishment to the doers. Let me tell you this, purgatory is not biblical and is just a human ideology in a bid to justify thier inability to live a wholly life void of sin.. This doctrine is one believed by the weak man who hasnt recieved the touch of God fully. I believe if u are sanctified and holy-ghost filled., u will know better..am not condeming anyone here neither am i speaking from a biased mind but all am saying is that purgatory has no scriptural proof watsoever..i once asked a vibrant catholic friend to show me where it is in d bible or somtin relating to purgatory but he could not. But went on saying that there is purgatory..well in dat case .i didnt arfue with him. I just kept praying for God to open his eyes..i have seen catholics to be very bent people to their doctrines and without changing it.not even in their minds and this is quite tru...but let me leave you all with this last words... YOU AND I KNOW THERE IS HEAVEN AND HELL EVEN IF U BELIEVE IN PURGATORY, U KNOW THIS IS TRUE. U AND I KNOW SIN IS WRONG AND CAN TAKE U YO HELL.. YES YOU KNOW THAT. YOU AND I KNW THAT HEAVEN IS A PLACE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE SINLESS. YES U KNOW THAT..NO SINEER WILL ENTER THERE.. NOW WHAT IF IT HAPPENS THAT U LIVE A WHOLLY HOLLY LIFE WITHOUT DELIBRATE SIN AND U SERVE GOD AND THEN U DIE, IF U FIND OUT THERE IS NO PURGATORY, AND U END UP IN HEAVENM, U WOULD HAVE LOST NOTIN BUT GAINED ETERNAL LIFE..BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, IF U BECAUSE OTHERS ARE BELIEVING THERE IS PURGATORY AND U JOIN THEM AND U SAY WELL SMALL LIES DONT MATTER AND U COMMIT 'SMALL SINS' AND THEN U DIE AND DISCOVER THERE IS NOT PURGATORY, WHERE DO U THINK U WILL END UP IN? ANSWER THAT FOR YA SELF..COS IF U END UP IN HELL IT IS FOREVER.. WITHOUT END..PLEASE BE WISE. THNK YOU ALL

italo: At least you know that we pay for even the sins forgiven.

Purgatory is for those who haven't finished paying for their sins in this life.

Sometimes, I wonder what would happen if Bin Laden sincerely turned to Jesus seconds before he died. Would he then go straight to heaven after a lifetime of the worst crimes?

It is not mine to judge but I know one thing...our Lord is merciful but he is also just.

What about your granny who has been a Saint all her life? If I visited her and she told you from her bedroom "tell am say I no dey" seconds before her death, would she then go to hell while Osama goes to heaven? Will that sin which doesn't lead to death take her to hell or will she be purified of it in purgatory then enter heaven.

Make up your own mind.

my brother, how i wish u could give us scriptural proof to substantiate that there is purgatory. U are going round and round in circles. Please

Hello all..
This issue of purgatory is a very serious and delicate one as many are confused and have been led away from the truth.
Now the big question is what is purgatory
According to the catholic doctrine, purgatory is a place, probably a geographical space in the spiritual realm where wrong doers (people who commited little sins in their life time here on earth) are kept temporarily and retributed for their sins for a period of time before they are now sent to heaven. Having understood what purgatory means, i'd like to expantiate clearly on this.
Now we all go to church and as such we cant say we are ignorant of God's word.even if we are, we have a conscience to know what is good and bad and avoid the bad. Our God is no respecter of persons, age, status etc. And as such no sin is too big or small in the eyes of God. Now God is not a man and the way we look at sin is not the way God looks at sin. We humans tend to classify sins under big and small sins but the almighty God generalizes sins and even a small lie has same gravity as murder. That is God for you. Secondly, if you believe in this doctrine of purgatory, that means u are indirectly saying that God counts small sins and counts big sins as different and dishes out different punishment to the doers. Let me tell you this, purgatory is not biblical and is just a human ideology in a bid to justify thier inability to live a wholly life void of sin.. This doctrine is one believed by the weak man who hasnt recieved the touch of God fully. I believe if u are sanctified and holy-ghost filled., u will know better..am not condeming anyone here neither am i speaking from a biased mind but all am saying is that purgatory has no scriptural proof watsoever..i once asked a vibrant catholic friend to show me where it is in d bible or somtin relating to purgatory but he could not. But went on saying that there is purgatory..well in dat case .i didnt arfue with him. I just kept praying for God to open his eyes..i have seen catholics to be very bent people to their doctrines and without changing it.not even in their minds and this is quite tru...but let me leave you all with this last words... YOU AND I KNOW THERE IS HEAVEN AND HELL EVEN IF U BELIEVE IN PURGATORY, U KNOW THIS IS TRUE. U AND I KNOW SIN IS WRONG AND CAN TAKE U YO HELL.. YES YOU KNOW THAT. YOU AND I KNW THAT HEAVEN IS A PLACE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE SINLESS. YES U KNOW THAT..NO SINEER WILL ENTER THERE.. NOW WHAT IF IT HAPPENS THAT U LIVE A WHOLLY HOLLY LIFE WITHOUT DELIBRATE SIN AND U SERVE GOD AND THEN U DIE, IF U FIND OUT THERE IS NO PURGATORY, AND U END UP IN HEAVENM, U WOULD HAVE LOST NOTIN BUT GAINED ETERNAL LIFE..BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, IF U BECAUSE OTHERS ARE BELIEVING THERE IS PURGATORY AND U JOIN THEM AND U SAY WELL SMALL LIES DONT MATTER AND U COMMIT 'SMALL SINS' AND THEN U DIE AND DISCOVER THERE IS NOT PURGATORY, WHERE DO U THINK U WILL END UP IN? ANSWER THAT FOR YA SELF..COS IF U END UP IN HELL IT IS FOREVER.. WITHOUT END..PLEASE BE WISE. THNK YOU ALL

Ah know say techno fans go dey happy die now...unto say dem go soon release d mobile version.hhahahahhahah

vcvibes: so how does dis affect ASUU strike??

is ASUU strike the ultimate? Am also affected but life goes on. If one drops dead, life goes on..somthing u cant stop, talk less about it okays..tired of seeing that word ASUU. By the way, even after graduation, what job offers are there?

Abeg who get groundnut there make i take soak garri?

These women are simply expressing the way they feel and ama call that FREEDOM OF SPEECH okays. Looking at this ongoing strike from a critical point of view..any unbiased and sane nigerian would agree with me that its affecting everyone negatively. Negating the fact that this strike is not doing any one good would only make you look unreasonable. Now lets look at this from this angle. Cos of this strike 1.Nigeria students are home suffering. 2
Men and Women who depends on market in d skull or driving shuttle are home unable to provide 4 their family.
3.If it runs till December surely there will be no Jamb in 2014.
4.Those who failed 2 get admission this year and take solace in trying harder next year will wait 4 two years.
5.In the next two years it will be 2 generations hunting for admission in d space Dat its not enough for 3/4 of a generation.
6.Many students who are supposed 2 b in skull are out dia doin one thing or d other everyday.
7.The death toll is rising every second
8.Students are losing interest in school


Think about the future of Nigeria.
Those that had exams before the strike is a guaranteed failure.

So any one who is trying in any way to put an end to this strike or better still political war , his/efforts are most welcomed.

Shalom!

Can't just END laughing any TIME i see such funny THINGS.

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When it lands Lagos , Ab Logictics(they are doing a very good job), will come to pick it at my Lagos office and send it to you...

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Me

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