₦airaland Forum

Kay 17: IF a man is faced with two paths A and B, by predestination or by God's foreknowledge the man takes A. Now what if he got to know of God's foreknowledge of the path A he was to take and deliberately decides to take B, rendering God's omniscience nugatory??

Interesting.

First of all, you haven't replied to me about why you think free-will is absurd.

Secondly, there are a few underlying assumptions I notice here which are contradictory:

1: You assume that God is subject to linear time. (I don't hold this view).

2: On the one hand you assume that the future is fixed such that God knows a fixed future and then on the other hand you equally assume that the future is not fixed such that man can choose to change it. You have created an argument which on the surface seems ok but at the root contradicts itself.

plaetton: OMG!
You just placed yourself in the category of "complex ignorance".

Mockery is never a good way to argue. He made a valid contention there. All you had to do was show him how it isn't guess work. Why not start doing that instead of insulting his person. There is nothing wrong with ignorance but there is everything wrong with mockery rather than education.

ooman: You would be entitled to a reasonable reply if you could offer any single proof, just one proof of creation of man from dust.

This was unecessary because he never said anything about creation and it does not in anyway aid in explaining evolution. It is only an attack at something he didn't present and a poorly veiled ad hominen attack to bully him and make him appear stupid and therefore be more inclined to accept your answer.

however, i feel compelled to answer. Evolution is based on maths and observation - FACT

Please kindly expand on this mathematics and observation you are talking about.

Deep Sight: Yes o! Really brilliant articulation, and I have to say Anony wins more coin for this!

Editted: read better on your busy day

Wow, you are a good 9 years older than me and yet here I was thinking of myself as kinda old

By the way, you never still send that email o. How far na?

mazaje: Sorry, i forgot to answer. . .I hold that the future has multiple possibilities. . .

Good, now think about this carefully:

If you hold that the future has multiple outcomes, then you'll agree that our choices indeed matter. Now would you rather that God fixed the future so that you acted according to script or that God allow you to make your decisions and warn you about the outcomes even though He knows what decision you'll make and if you will heed His warning? Remember that we have established that the fact that He knows what you will choose does not mean that He is therefore causing you to choose it.

You see on the one hand you want God to step in and control the outcome by presetting the conditions for everyone. Essentially, you want Him to fix the script. The problem with this is that if the script is fixed, then no one is really making choices rather they are just acting out the movie of life.

On the other hand, you want your choices to matter. For that to happen, God has to let you write your own script and only provide guidance while leaving you the choice of whether to heed His guidance or not.


Now, from the moment God created free-willed beings, the possibility of sin was born. But then one cannot really be said to have a relationship with God if one doesn't do it out of his/her free-will. One cannot be said to love if one does not choose to love.
God is not interested in our "good works"(we simply can't be good enough to impress God) if He wanted good works, He could easily have created "good-working robots" rather He wants us to be in a loving relationship with Him and for this to happen, we must have free-willed beings capable of love.


I'll use your father and son analogy to further illustrate this: As a father, does knowing that your children will disobey you mean that you shouldn't have them?
Will it be good of you to refuse to have children because you don't want disobedience to exist in your family? (I'll accept that you are well within your rights to do this)
Following from the above; In the case where you've had children and where your children act in disobedience, is their disobedience therefore your fault because you created that possibility by bringing them into the world?

mazaje: Sure. . .That's why I stated that its nonsense, it is just used to explain theology away. . .When you look at the who concept and narrative critically its a complete nonsense. . .No responsible father will do that to his child. . .Even the bible has god being bitter and regretting why he created humans according to the story. . .An all knowing good showing regret and becoming angry over what he already knows will happen is just impossible. . .Humans express regret and anger over things because they can\t control them most times, as a human being if you have the ability to make things go right and you allow them go wrong and later express regret people will punish you if they can. . .Its just a concoction of one idea after another to explain jammed stories and narratives that make no sense at all. . .

All well and good, I have heard your reply, however you didn't answer the question I asked. Please kindly answer it.

mazaje: Sure, I understand. But The whole concept is nonsensical to me be because the whole concept comes with a dire consequence at the end . .For example. . .If I drop my car keys and tell my son not to take the keys and drive the car in my absence, but he chooses to disobey me and I know already that his disobedience will make him lose his life, it will be foolish of me to drop the car keys in the first place. . .Any way the free will idea from god remains a concept used to explain theology away. . .

Good, i promised I'll come back to this so here goes:

I'll like you to consider this carefully. From your analogy, notice that the fact you know that your son will disobey you doesn't in anyway change the fact that he CHOSE to disobey you. The real question I perceive that you are grappling with is not that God's omniscience affects free-will rather what you are really unhappy about is that since God knew before hand, why didn't He stop it before it came to be. Notice that those are two different things entirely.

Now to help us along, I will ask you one question and I want you to think about it carefully before you answer. Do you hold the view that the future is fixed or do you hold that the future has multiple possibilities?

[quote author=inspiredbyGOD:.]who exactly do i remind you of?[/quote]Dude, what happened to that our conversation? My door is still open should you want to have it. send me a text when you are ready and I'll give you a call.

tayoccu: Erm bleach(remedy for my insomnia, never fails to put me to sleep) is still on.

Are you serious?? When did it start again?

Ihedinobi: Ended? When?

Death Note has been concluded as well as Bleach. E don tey sef

Ihedinobi: @Anony, what'd I say, twin bro?

Lol, Contrary to what it may look like, I think he is beginning to grasp my argument a bit.

mazaje: Sure, I understand. But The whole concept is nonsensical to be because the whole concept comes with dire consequence at the end . .For example. . .If I drop my car keys and tell me son not to take the keys and drive the car in my absence but he chooses to disobey me and I know already that his disobedience will make him lose his life, it will be foolish of me to drop the car keys in the first place. . .Any way the free will idea from god remains a concept used to explain theology away. . .

Good it seems you are now beginning to get my point. I'll come back to this later. I need to log off now.

mazaje: Free will which is freedom to choose to do things willingly exist as a concept and is applicable in some cases. . .But free will to serve a god that is said to know everything. .It is said such a god knows the end from the beginning, this to me is just some imaginary conception because it actually makes no sense. . .

Good so I'll take it that you do believe that freewill exists since your reply to this thread was not an illusion but something you chose to do and consequently did.

Now think about it carefully this carefully: Does the fact that I knew that you will choose to reply my comment mean that you didn't actually freely choose to reply?

My point being that if I my ability to predict your next action does not in anyway contradict your freedom of choice then the fact that God knows whether you will choose Him or not does not take anything away from your ability to choose Him.

For more on the omniscience paradox, see this video below (You can start from 1:40)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JRsHIN5ATY

MacDaddy01: not fair


You always run away from me?

Is it the abuse? the debunkery? the bashing? What is it

Yes I am purposely ignoring you, I've decided to stop feeding trolls

@mazaje, Does freewill exist or is it merely an illusion?

Please think about my question carefully before providing your answer

Ihedinobi: ^^^Logicboy has a weird delusion that his opinion means something. So he has this really curious sentiment that if he does not comprehend something, that thing is irrational and if he can scream loud enough that it is, everybody will immediately see that it is. I think it's what that lie atheism has done to hid brains - twisting them with the thought that his opinions can transform into law for everybody if he can only scream them loud enough.

On point

I know someone else of similar sentiment; He was the author of this quote: “A lie told often enough becomes truth”. His name was Vladmir Lenin.

Our in-house Knight of Aheism is really an interesting rabble-rouser.

Reyginus: The thing that baffles me is the audacity with which he dismisses rational statements with irrational ones.

Lol, even more baffling is how oblivious he is to his irrationality

MacDaddy01: Should apply to you.

yawn...

ooman: you never provide any answers, all you do is mock provided answers. I understand you have no answers at all because you are too ashamed to state what Genesis says, but that is no problem, i can deal with that.

Actually, all davidlyan did was turn ghostofsparta's comment back at him. If you call that mockery, then you must also call ghostofsparta's comment mockery as well.

Reyginus: This is the problem I have with lb. He will rather look for a way to turn the thread to an insult arena, than reason anything.

Lol, actually for me it is not a problem, I've come to expect that from him

^^^@Macdaddy01,

Ever heard the saying that; it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than to speak and erase all doubt.

MacDaddy01:

empty barrel

butthurt

.....lol, I see this is the level of conversation you prefer

davidylan: Funny, considering you would rather whine here redemanding already provided answers (on multiple threads here) since you are more bent on ferreting for loop holes than finding real answers. Perhaps you should also consider directing your questions to theologians who may be better able to explain them to you.

There in a nutshell is how atheist hypocrisy works... they cant answer any questions... they hide their ignorance of the "science" they promote by asking you to "go and read". why arent they "reading" the bible rather than whining here?

lololol....perfect answer.

Kay 17: Note that, there was Nothingness before Creation. God created ONLY Good. Evil was not created and therefore has no existence. Or else you want to say some things like Evil are causeless and uncreated.

This is a very poor argument. Good and evil are not tangible created things rather they are the state in which the created things are i.e. A good thing is how the said thing is supposed to be while an evil thing is a corruption or damage to the good thing. God created a good creation, free-willed man spoilt it therefore evil.

If you cannot grasp that single statement above but insist on arguing your strawman, then be prepared to explain to us how someone can create Good on its own instead of a good thing. While you are are at it, please tell us also how someone can create Red on its own instead of a red thing. You see the problem with your argument is that you are treating the state of a thing as the thing itself.

Once again, I am still very interested in why you think free-will is absurd. I really need you to properly think through your arguments.

Kay 17: The problem with your deviation argument is that: if only Good exists, then its deviation is Nothing. Either Good or Nothingness. Substract the Good/God and you have a void.

Lol.....I think Davidlyan has given you a sufficient answer on that. I will now press you further to explain why you think free-will is absurd

MacDaddy01: Lol.....Ihedinobi, Anony and Davidylan.....masters of the imaginary philosophy.


Good without evil, light without darkness.



Why not argue on tangibles instead of imaginary worlds and things that you cant see and have no idea about?

Isn't if funny how when an argument rises beyond your level of understanding, your immediate response is to mock the people arguing?

Ihedinobi: Repent and returm to your first love, my brother. Narutohell is real...for my mind na. Lol

In any case, Kishi, the author, is wrapping it up. We're coming up to the final showdown or whatever. Man, it's an addictive story. I love it. I'm not big on any others currently. I mean to try Bleach and maybe Death Note next.

Ahh Death Note and Bleach, beautiful series that ENDED. Anyway... please let me know when the Naruto series ends.

MacDaddy01: And thus,


Anony runs away in shame from his troll thread and dubious tactics!


Shameful

Yawn...

davidylan: 1. The "infinite number of options" you talk about can be boiled down to two things - good and evil. So your point there makes no sense. Secondly, science cannot predict the impossible either, does that make science invalid as you try to make of free will?

2. This point was unintelligible. Appears you dont know what you're talking about.

3. Absurd. First you whine that God hasnt given you freewill then turn around to claim that freewill is an absurdity that you would rather do away with?

Wow, how did I miss that argument. Is he therefore arguing that free-will does not exist? Because if he is, then he'll have to affirm that good and evil do not exist or are at best an illusion for which he will then have to justify all the fuss about an illusion and why the illusion ought to be upheld.

Kay 17: @anony2

I can easily argue that the "good" cup is the product of an imperfect maker, which simply catches an illusory glimpse of perfection momentarily.

But then your argument wouldn't relate to mine which is that a damaged cup is a deviation from a good cup in the same way evil is a deviation from good.

Ihedinobi: What're you doin here?! And what do you mean "still"? Narutoheaven is real, any follower is warned not to unfollow because Narutohell is one coldass place. Lol

Lolololol.....I left Naruto years ago when I discovered that they had no intention of finishing the series.

Ihedinobi: You're right, but note that unless an Uchiha has the mangekyou, the secrets of the rinnegan are closed to him im those scrolls. That's what I was trying to point out. About the Senju, I'd rather not speculate.

Lol, so people still dey follow Naruto