"Shia Scholars have declared it HARAM! They have not decleared it HARAM"!
See deception oooo!
AlBaqir: # To sino post, unfortunately his only reference is the same al-shirazi website I have castigated. Is that an evidence?
# The two leading maraji of about 90% Shia worldwide are Ayatullah Ali Sistani and Ayatullah Ali Khameini. They both have official websites where their books and fatwas can be checked. THEY BOTH DECLARE TATBIR HARAM based on many facts top of which is it does not exist in the Quran, sunnah of the Nabi and the Ahl al-bayt..
AlBaqir: ^Hey yah sorry. Chest beating and taking off shirt never add up to blood ritual via body flagellation.
# And I need to add: The word "HARAM" simply means it is legislatedly forbidden by Allah or His Nabi. NO SCHOLAR HAS THE RIGHT to declare anything HARAM which Allah or His Nabi never declared. Hence a good jurist should be careful using the word "halal" and "haram".
AlBaqir: ^Hey yah sorry. Chest beating and taking off shirt never add up to blood ritual via body flagellation.
# And I need to add: The word "Haram" simply means it is legislatedly forbidden by Allah or His Nabi. No scholar has the right to declare anything Haram which Allah or His Nabi never declared. Hence a good jurist should be careful using the word "halal" and "haram".
This is a fatwa from Ayatollah Seestani permitting and encouraging shia to slash themselves:
sino: The following are the Fatawa of 19 of the most Eminent Maraje’ of the Shi'a world regarding the TA’ZIA or AZADARI for Imam Hussain peace be upon him [the list below is not exhaustive, but it only enlists some of the eminent Maraje'.]
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid al-Seestani
The current leader of the Hawzah of the holy city of Najaf.
Question: What is the ruling regarding the lashing with chains, chest beating, and walking on fire on the occasion of mourning the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him?
Answer: If (these are) not associated with extreme harm or loss of limb, there is no objection.
This is a fatwa from Ayatollah Seestani permitting and encouraging shia to slash themselves:
sino: The following are the Fatawa of 19 of the most Eminent Maraje’ of the Shi'a world regarding the TA’ZIA or AZADARI for Imam Hussain peace be upon him [the list below is not exhaustive, but it only enlists some of the eminent Maraje'.]
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid al-Seestani
The current leader of the Hawzah of the holy city of Najaf.
Question: What is the ruling regarding the lashing with chains, chest beating, and walking on fire on the occasion of mourning the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him?
Answer: If (these are) not associated with extreme harm or loss of limb, there is no objection.
AlBaqir: ^Hey yah sorry. Chest beating and taking off shirt never add up to blood ritual via body flagellation.
# And I need to add: The word "Haram" simply means it is legislatedly forbidden by Allah or His Nabi. No scholar has the right to declare anything Haram which Allah or His Nabi never declared. Hence a good jurist should be careful using the word "halal" and "haram".
Question: Some individuals say that I do not see shedding my tears as enough to express my grief for Imam Hussain (AS), his household and his followers on the day of Ashura. So is hitting myself with sword and injuring myself is allowed?
Answer: The Hussaini Sha’a’er, including TATBIR, are some of the RAAJIH issues. TATBIR is a MUSTAHAB deed, unless it leads to death, loss of limb, or loss of faculties. (RAAJIH means MUSTAHAB that could become WAJIB depending on the circumstances - translator.).
Question: What is your opinion regarding hitting the head with sword – TATBIR – on the day of Ashura whether or not it harms the individual?
Answer: The most common and widely known opinion of the Fuqaha (scholars) is that the desirability (of TATBIR) is in it not being extremely harmful.
Question: If one engages in the program of TA’ZIAH for Imam Hussain (AS), and goes on to serve the program of TA’ZIAH but does not do TATBIR, is he regarded as a sinner, who deserves to be humiliated?
Answer: TATBIR is a desirable act, and a MUKALLAF – i.e. one who has reached the adolescence age and is duty bound – may forsake a desirable act. It is not allowed to humiliate a Mu’min, and also one who does not do TATBIR may not humiliate or insult others, or accuse them (of false things).
Question: What is your opinion regarding the reports that Lady Zaynab (AS), when she saw the head of her brother Imam Hussain peace be upon him, being paraded in public hit her forehead on the bar of the carriage she was travelling in, causing bleeding to flow from beneath her veil, which was visible to onlookers who witnessed the event?
Answer:
Yes that is proven.
{Some of the famous references, which confirm the above report, are as follows: • Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114, • Jalaa’ al-‘Oyun; volume 2, page 238, • Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112, • Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474, • Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478, • Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18.
Needless to say that ‘Allamah al-Majlisi – compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar – and Sheikh al-Shari’ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of the report.}
Empiree: Either way, it's wrong and shia ulama have repeatedly condemned the act.
@bolded
Below are fatawa from shia scholars permitting and encouraging shia people slashing themselves:
sino: The following are the Fatawa of 19 of the most Eminent Maraje’ of the Shi'a world regarding the TA’ZIA or AZADARI for Imam Hussain peace be upon him [the list below is not exhaustive, but it only enlists some of the eminent Maraje'.]
Al-Imam al-Sheikh Abdul Kareem al-Ha’ery
The Founder of the current Hawzah in the holy city of Qum.
“The hitting of swords on the heads (causing bleeding) is alright (allowed) provided there is no harm to the person doing this. Furthermore no one has the right to prohibit this (hitting the head with sword). In fact all kinds of TA’ZIAH – mourning – for SEYYED AL-SHUHADA’ – Imam Hussain – may our souls be sacrificed for him, are MUSTAHAB – desirable deeds.”
The above Fatwa by al-Imam al-Sheikh Abdul Kareem al-Ha’ery was endorsed and signed by the following eminent Maraje’:
The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf.
“There is no doubt as to the permissibility of the beating of the chest and the face with the hands to the point of redness or blackness (of the chest or the face). This is also extended to the lashing of the shoulders and the back with chains to the extent mentioned (above), and even if this led to bleeding. As for causing the bleeding of the head by sword beating, this is also allowed provided it does not lead to endangering harm, such as unstoppable bleeding or harm to the scull, etc. as it is known amongst the experts in doing this (hitting on the head).”
The above Fatwa by al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini was endorsed and signed by the following eminent Maraje’:
• Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Mohsen al-Hakim, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Kaadhem al-Shari’atMadari, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Abd-el-A’la al-Sabzewary, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Abul-Qassim al-Kho’i, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Ridha al-Gulpaygani, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Ali al-Hussaini al-Seestani, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Saadiq al-Rouhani, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Mirza Jawaad al-Tabrizi, • Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Sheikh Hussain al-Waheed al-Khurasani, And many other Maraje’ and eminent scholars . . .
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid al-Kho’i
The former leader of the Hawzah of the holy city of Najaf.
Question: Is there any problem with causing the bleeding of the head – TATBIR – as it is practiced, to express one’s grief about the martyrdom of our Imam Hussain peace be upon him, assuming there is going to be no permanent harm?
Answer: There is no problem with that, given the assumption made in the question, and Allah knows best.
Question:
You stated that there is no problem in causing the bleeding of the head – known as TATBIR – if it does not lead to harm. It is said that it is not more than a permissible act, then can TATBIR be MUSTAHAB – desirable – if the intention was the upholding and honouring the Sha’a’er – signs of Allah – and sympathy with the Ahl-ul-Bayt, peace be upon them?
Answer: Most probably Allah Almighty would give thawab – reward (the individual) – for sympathising with the Ahl-ul-Bayt if the intention is sincere.
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid al-Seestani
The current leader of the Hawzah of the holy city of Najaf.
Question: What is the ruling regarding the lashing with chains, chest beating, and walking on fire on the occasion of mourning the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him?
Answer: If (these are) not associated with extreme harm or loss of limb, there is no objection.
Question: What is the ruling regarding wearing black, and chest beating when commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him, as well as other infallible Imams peace be upon them?
Answer: This is permissible, and in fact this is regarded as one of the best means of seeking nearness to Allah, since it is upholding and honouring the Sha’a’er of Allah Almighty. [This is a reference to the Qur’anic Ayah 22:32. – translator.]
sino: Let me help him bring authentic evidence, seems he cannot find it already... Please pay attention to the red and bold section of the below narration:
Sheikh Tusi reports: Narrated Muhammad bin Ismail bin Bazi, from Salih bin Uqba, from his father, from Imam Abu Jafar (A.S). (d. 114 A.H. / 732 A.D.) who said: “Whoever visits the grave of Imam al-Hussain bin Ali (A.S.) on the day of Ashura, in the month of Muharram and persists in weeping at his grave, then Allah the Glorified and Exalted will receive him on the Day of judgment with the reward of two thousand major pilgrimages (Hajj), two thousand minor pilgrimages (Umrah) and two thousand military expeditions. The reward of each major and minor pilgrimage and military expedition will be akin to having undertaken them with the Prophet of Allah and the Rightly Guided Imams (A.S).”
The narrator said: “May I be ransomed for you, but what about him who lives in far and distant lands and is unable to travel there (i.e.to the site of the grave) on that day?
He (the Imam (A.S) said: ‘If that is so, then let such a person go out into the desert or climb up to the terrace or roof-top of his house and gesture in the direction of the grave of Imam al-Hussain (A.S.); send greetings and salutations and exert himself in invoking curses on his enemies. Thereafter he should recite two units of prayer. This ritual should be done at the beginning part of the day, before the sun passes its zenith. Thereafter, he should lament and weep over al-Hussain (A.S.), and command the people of his house, who are unaware of it, to cry over al-Hussain (A.S.).He should establish mourning in his house by expressing grief and sorrow over al-Hussain (A.S.). Some of them are to console others of their feelings of distress. If they do all this, then I am their guarantor near Allah the Exalted.’ I said (i.e. the narrator, in a state of amazement): ‘May I be ransomed for you, are you their guarantor in that?!’ He (the Imam (A.S)) said: ‘I am the guarantor for him who does that.’ I (i.e. the narrator) said: ‘But how do some of us console others?’ He (the Imam (A.S)) said: ‘You should say: “May Allah magnify our recompense due to our distress for al-Hussain (A.S.). May He establish you and us from amongst those who seek to avenge his murder, in the company of His friend, the Imam al-Mahdi (A.S) from the progeny of Muhammad.” (P.B.U.H&HF)
(The Imam (A.S) continues[b]).‘Furthermore, if one is able to abstain from spending this day in fulfilling needs, then do so, for it is a day of misfortune and calamity, in which the needs of a faithful are not fulfilled. If the need is fulfilled, it will not be blessed and he will not see any goodness in it. None of you must attempt to accumulate anything for the future in his house on that day; for he who does so will not obtain any blessings in what he has accumulated and neither will his family.[/b]
Thus if they do this, Allah will ordain for them the reward of a thousand major pilgrimages (Hajj), a thousand minor pilgrimages (Umrah) and a thousand military expeditions, as if done with the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W). Additionally, for such a person will be the recompense of the suffering of every Prophet, Messenger, Successor (of the Prophets), the Truthful and the Martyr who was killed, since the creation of the world till the Day of judgement.”
I got the above from a site that tries to establish the above narration, among others, is authentic. Click HERE for the whole gist...
Imagine, I didn't even know you also get the reward of performing 1000 jihad with the Prophet (SAW) and that one can stand on top of the roof facing Imam Husein's "Qiblah", sending salutation and offering two raka'aat! this is serious!!!
SMH!
These are the fabricated narrations they use in deceiving their gullible followers!
FriendChoice: It's a small one. Read their doctrine Almuqamatul Hariri you will see the remaining statement. After he smuggle them into paradise, he will ask God to put him in fire and God will say no. Then his followers/student ask why? He responded that: If God should put him in fire, that's D end of the fire itself, the fire will be off and no remaining to burn others. I seek refuge from Allah on this statement.
FriendChoice: It's a small one. Read their doctrine Almuqamatul Hariri you will see the remaining statement. After he smuggle them into paradise, he will ask God to put him in fire and God will say no. Then his followers/student ask why? He responded that: If God should put him in fire, that's D end of the fire itself, the fire will be off and no remaining to burn others. I seek refuge from Allah on this statement.
@bolded really got me cracking.
He wants to smuggle people into paradise! When have human beings become contrabands?
FriendChoice: Empiree It's a big Shame on you that you cannot defend Islam. But you can defend innovations and shirk. The truth are present, you will closed your eyes and write trashes. May Allah deliver you from the Satan that is in your heart.
Empiree is a full-fledged Sufi! Sufis and Shias have lots of evils in common! That's why Empiree defends Albaqir and other deviants here.
Imagine this from one of their Sheiks:
According to reports, Sheik Ibrahim Niyas in one of his books said he has a special cloth that has 70,000 pockets. In each pocket, there are 70,000 sub-pockets. In each sub-pocket again, there are 70,000 sub-pockets, on and on like that! He said that on the Day of Judgement, he will carry 70,000 persons who believe in him in each of the sub-pockets in 70,000 times and fly them into paradise! Subhanallah! Is this Islam? May Allah(SWT) forgive and have mercy on him.
Is this Islam? When the Prophet Himself(SAW) told His daughter(R.A) that he has no power to help her on the Day of Judgment?
FriendChoice: Last year what happened in Kano on maulud day of inyas is a tragic event. Your Sufi leader said Even if D........... (SAW) will raise up from grave and challenge the maulud of inyas, they will match his head on the ground.
Anyone who can match the head of best of creation on the ground, is he a Muslim?
Alhamdulillah: His house was immediately demolished by people and police rescue him from being killed. He is arraign in Kano Sharia court and sentence 2 death.
AlBaqir: # The more you talk, the more you expose your ignorance.
Ismat literally means protection. In Shia terminology it means 'A special grace (lutf) of Allah to a person which enables the person to abstain from sins by his own free will. Such a person is called Maasum.
This lutf does not make the Maasum person incapable of committing sin. He refrains from sins and mistakes by his own power and will.
# Nabi used the word masoom:
Imam an-Nasai documents:
It was narrated from Abu Saeed that the Messenger of Allah said:
"Allah never sends a prophet or appoints a Khalifah but he has two groups of advisers: A group that tells him to do good and a group that tells him to do evil and urges him to do it. And the one who is truly protected (masoom, وَالْمَعْصُومُ ) is the one who is protected by Allah, the Mighty and Sublime."
Grade : Sahih (Darussalam)
Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 4202 In-book reference : Book 39, Hadith 54 English translation : Vol. 5, Book 39, Hadith 4207 www.sunnah.com/nasai/39
# Concerning Nabi and his household, Allah says:
"...Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! and to purify you absolutely." {surah al-Ahzab:33}
AlBaqir: Q16: Is hitting oneself with swords ḥalāl if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwā in this regard universal?
A: In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.[/i] http://leader.ir/en/content/16350/Rules-of-Muharram-month
@bolded
...INFALLIBLES.....
Infallibles ko, Instandibles ni!
You shia people are jokers! Nobody is infallible! Not even the Prophets and Messengers of Allah(SWT)!
Only Allah(SWT) in infallible! Perfection belongs only to Allah(SWT)!
RABIUSHILE04: Empiree, pls for Allaah's sake don't continue with this act/character of urs, it has a trace of hypocrisy in it, during the time of rasulullaah there were ppl with this kind of character, they didn't end well. I advice you, fear Allaah! Halaal and haram are glaring. From ur pix, I'm sure it wil be a lie, ppl will just get a pix, and put a quote next to it. Khomeini dat was their supreme leader. Youtube is there for u to see shia, sufi ideology!
FriendChoice: [size=23] Shi'a Pilgrimage In Karbala Vs Muslim Pilgrimage (Hajj) In Mecca. [/size]
The 0.27 second video said it all. While we answered God's call and associates no partner with Him. Listen to what they answer their call to in Karbala.
Empiree: Speechless but we can't continue to keep up with this approach every year. It doesn't solve anything. There is a need to review your approach. We know that not all shia do this. Is it every year you want to keep putting this up? . As you put this up, be fair enough to say it's not all shia and that their ulama have issued fatwa against it. From medical point of view, to be honest, I believe it's not all human blood. Look at some of the pictures with people so bloodied. You can't have blood gushing like that and still stand still. In a real life someone gets shot in the head with pint of blood out would be unconcious in mins. Either way, it's wrong and shia ulama have repeatedly condemned the act. It is not Islam. It's just crazy practice and each country should have to ban it but they chose not to. It's should simply be a crime to cut oneself or cut a baby. You should now do hijra from this repeated approach of yours and focus on fact that their shuyuk condemned this act. .....majority of them. But for some reason it survives. I watched one where a guy slashed himself with a sword on his back. He went down straight with little blood needless to say this much. Focus should be on voicing the popular opinion that their ulama do not support this. Otherwise your will keep repeating this every year and nothing will ever be solved. Others shia who's don't do this silly act will get frustrated and hatred continues. Start using hikma. Enough of this every year
You and your camelion traits!
Today, you're Shia! Tomorrow, you're Sufi! Next tomorrow, you're a Christian defending all sorts of evils and pretending as if you're against the evils!
Islam › Re: Tatbir (flagellation) - A Disturbing Innovation by MrOlai: 12:27pm On Oct 17, 2016
