₦airaland Forum

enshy:
If this is your stand, I firmly disagree.
See Acts 4:32, Acts 2:44 - The New Testament/Early Church is a family and it is scriptural to operate as such. The bible calls us members of one body. How do the members of your body operate? Its not as you described. You have described the Jewish Temple and not the new testament church. Its not the Jewish temple where they just worship and leave.
As per leadership, do you see Pauls letters to the churches? do you notice the authority he had over the churches, Timothy, Titus and how he gave instruction on almost everything - This is the pattern Church Leadership.
I Cor 4:15-16 'For though you have 10000 instructors in Christ, yet ye have not many Fathers, for in Christ I have begotten you through the Gospel. Wherefore I beseech you be ye followers of me' . The Church founder is a Spiritual Father called unto Apostleship by Power and Grace - I Cor 1:1
Rev 2:1, angel of church is the minister of the church.
In conclusion, we are bound to submit to God if we are truly xtians. II Tim 3:16 says 'all scripture is given by inspiration of God...'
I am a Xtian ...Gods Word only is my guide!

This is my stand. Jesus told the woman by the well, the time cones when ye shall not worship God on this mountain or in Jerusalem, ... Venues and times and codes of worship are relics of an old disappearing order. God is spirit and we worship him in spirit.
Your model has resulted in the mess and decay we are seeing today because it is built on presumption , people wake up , start gathering, and invoke the power of scripture to legitimize their error, children grow up and naturalize into the system...where exactly is God in your model? My dear, God is organized out of your church system.
Now listen, the apostles were men of God , who were still human. We don't deify them. Have you cared to study how they operated? Did you see rooms for improvement? I do. In acts 14 they basically reached a compromise deal to appease the judaizers despite Paul having a clear leading. That's one instancewhere they were wrong,. Peter was wrong and was rebuked by pPaul. You should rightly divide the word of truth.
In I cor 14 Paul said when you gather and everyone of you hath a psalm, a tongue a revelation... Can you honestly claim this is how your church is?? How many people are brimming with tongues and prophecies etc to release?? If not then why do claim the biblical pattern.
I speak in love. The assembling of ourselves together , refers to OURSELVES. Can you say your gathering is restricted to ourselves?? How can when anybody can walk in? In God's model he leads his own to specific arrangements of fellowship. The unsaved can't follow such a leading and the Church remains pure.

enshy:
Is denominationalism the issue or false teachers?
If you have so defined Church and Gospel, are there not denominations that are in line with your definition?

OK
This is where very careful discernment is required.my answer is NO. By definition a denomination cannot fit into my concept of Church. A denomination is a group which has acquired an identity of its own, separate from that of its members and as such can operate and have a life without anything controlling it. Instead it controls the people in it. Since we know the holy spirit can only indwell sons, humans, the life if the organization is clearly not from God . please look closely.
The Church is not an earthly organization, it is spiritual and is not bound by space and time, when 2 or 3 are gathered in his name Church happens. When they disperse Church disperses. To create an organization that retains its life and name and identity even after the saints are dispersed is to have created an earthly organization and that is not church. So the lord leads 3 of his children individually, to a place , where they meet and have a strong spiritual fellowship- Church. They disperse and that us it. Nothing says the 3 of them must keep coming there at that same time under a name and structure! When that happens , a human arrangement as opposed to a spiritual has been started. Except of course if the lord specifically leads the same to that place every single time !
My argument is that the leading of the spirit has been replaced by human decision making and that has resulted in organizations that are running in their own strength, with their own timetable - what I call denominations. People join churches, their children become members, and you have a human society growing by natural principles. But bible, Jesus himself said that which is of the earth is earthly .....and again flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
This in my humble view is responsible for even the false teachers you talk aboutband the deadnessnof denominationalism. They spirit stays away when the flesh calls the shots. Can you imagine fixing a place and time and presuming God will always join you there when he has his own plan you refused to ask him about.
But why is this so important? These organizations firmed and operated in the flesh are the building blocks of Babylon, man's empire and God's enemy. Their later end is a fierce battle against God's authority and place in the earth.

Allah! Hahahahaha pdophile loving, blood sucking demon worshipped by the mist deluded of the earth.

FriendNG:
Let me educate you, there is different from normal Hausa Fulani and herdsman that fight in Kaduna, Jos etc. Just thank God you attack Hausa's. I beg you in the name of God to attack a single herdsman cow not even human life let's see the so called warriors of IFe.

Which God? Do you know God?/abeg use your Allah that you know, and leave the Almighty God for normal people.

EazyMoh:
On all those incidences no northern came up with lies to change what actually happened and paint the perpetrators as victims. Every act of violence was condemned squarely and compensations paid on many occasions. In one year alone Isah Yuguda rebuilt more than five churches.
We did not just start calling for division, we never wanted a one Nigeria in the first place. And nobody in the south is even serious about the division, because up till today no southern lawmaker has attempted to sponsor a bill to repeal the indivisibilty clause in the Constitution. All of you are just paying lip service to it, may be we just have to do it ourselves.

Please, I beg do it now! Divide the country fast. Use your parliamentary majority, it should be easy for you. We are tired already. Which kind nonsense be this. I asked op to give his account of the events and he is just foaming from the mouth. Divide the country let's all rest.

FriendNG:
Even though you're lying, tell your lost sheeps kinsmen to stop eating the poisonous meat. That meat you eat was slaughtered according to Sharia calling Allah's name.

Secondly your lost sheeps siblings usually call a Sharia mallan to help them kill their Xmas goat.

Just recently your lost sheep brother took his wife to Sharia court in Abuja

Likewise your lost sheeps sisters in the north often take their marital problems to Hisba (sharia) police for settlement because they believe they will get justice there.

Useless lost sheep follower.

killer. Change or we will continue to call you what you are: killers

FriendNG:
This will not save you. Stop bragging about killing innocent peaceful Hausa traders just by mistake attack a single Herdsman cow. We will see the Yoruba warriors. We will see whether they also choose the wrong place to fight.

Let the Nation divide. If you dare eat that meat you are not the son of your father.

I already stopped eating your killer red meat. Please divide the country. Nobody wants to stay with you. You are killers . firm your own sharia country. Divide the country.

FriendNG:
Let me educate you, there is different from normal Hausa Fulani and herdsman that fight in Kaduna, Jos etc. Just thank God you attack Hausa's. I beg you in the name of God to attack a single herdsman cow not even human life let's see the so called warriors of IFe.

please divide the country fast. Which herdsmen? The ones that rogue elements in the armed forces are giving weapons and Intel? And still they only attack women at night? Are you not ashamed of yourself? Useless cow herder. Very soon we will all boycott the poison beef that is killing off Nigerians so that everyone will rest. If you call yourself a man ...divide Nigeria.

EazyMoh:
God bless you FriendNG. I made a comment on that thread regarding this issue. It's disturbing the level of hate displayed against us in this country despite the blatant lies as you expertly outlined almost everyone was agreeing to whatever FFK has vomited.
They were again castigating Kwankwaso and Aregbesola for the peace meeting.
This so called beheaded Yoruba young name up till today has no name, no family and no one could locate his body.
What happened was that a people who have been painted black by the rest of the country were mercilessly massacred more than 30 innocent Hausa people were killed because of an alleged slap.
I will not forgive our security agents if FFK is not held accountable to this his hate speech. He shall be given the Mmaikori treatment.
And finally I believe we shall just divide this country so that everyone will have a peace of mind.

Just one incident with Hausa casualties and you are already calling for division of the country!!! Can you now see what others have endured? Kaduna, Jos, Kano, youth corpers killed, farmers slaughtered, protesters killed, yet when they ask for justice you people laugh it off, praise be to God who allows all that goes around to come around. The cries of the innocents have risen to God, and he will answer. You want to divide the country ? Be my guest , and be fast about it.

2cato:
why is that the law enforcement agency gives ur people the monopoly of going about with sword, dagger and guns

My people ke? What is this one saying? You don't know my tribe from what you've just typed. Allow OP to answer my question please.

OP I would like to know, what's your own version of the events? It would really help everyone see things clearly.

enshy:
Fine!
Whats the purpose of the Church as it relates with the Gospel?
How does God set up the Church?

The purpose of the Church is the perfecting of the saints that are saved until we get to the fullness of the stature of Christ.
God sets up Church by his own sovereign will and power. He saves who he wills and puts them in the Church.
It may be time for you to make your point!

enshy:
Good observation but I have problems with your conclusion.
Lets start this way:
What is Church and Whats your concept/content of the Gospel?

Thanks for commenting.
Summary: my ideas are taken from the Bible. As such I'm open to correction.
That being said, the church is the body of Christ universal as per Hebrews 12. Its a mystical, cosmic entity complex enough for only the most high to superintend over seeing that "the lord knows those that are his".
There is also a sense in which the word church has been used scripturally to describe local groups of believers in assembly.
As for the gospel it is the message of reconciliation of God to man brought by Jesus Christ and continued with spirit led elaboration by the apostles and their successors ever since.

Aquiprsy:
Going by the nature and character of the Holy Spirit, he moves men to act, as against men moving the spirit to act.

I think in the period of waiting for divine direction, men who now on the basis of experience (just as Paul once gave instructions in his capacity as a leader), gave direction.

When you say church, do you have sth against that?

I have nothing against Church properly understood, I have everything against human organizations that want to be recognized as church but are not.
We all would have been better off waiting for divine direction, remember how Abraham didn't wait and now we are burdened with Ishmael? Remember how Moses handed over to Aaron and came back to meet a golden calf?
That's the burden of my position. They that are led by the spirit of God, THEY are the sons of God. Without carefully following the spirit we end up with Babylon.

Aquiprsy:
Was there alternative to this mode of spread of the gospel?

Yes I think there was. I think a close reading if the bible, particularly the Acts of the apostles reveals two streams of action coexisting side by side.there was the spirit led stream of action where the holy spirit virtually micromanaged the fledgling Christian movement. Telling them where to go, and who to meet and so on. An example is Philip the evangelist.
Then there was the man-led stream of action where men decided how to go by a combination of guesswork, popular vote, and natural logic. Examples abound as in the Jerusalem council of Acts 14, selection of apostle Matthias, etc. This continued into the later centuries with the human stream winning more people, and using their influence to spread their own narrative. A narrative which has resulted in a deeply human arrangement now called church. There was always an alternative. The spirit led way was our alternative.

Aquiprsy:
The first question is, what's denominationalism?

What's the origin?

Then this discussion will then have direction.

Thank you. Denominationalism is used here to depict both the denominationalization and institutionalization of the christian faith which resulted in groups that have developed an acculturated rather than a spirit led Christianity.
In my view the origins are very early in the history of our faith, when men designed worship protocols, systems and structures. These structures outlived the good spirit and intentions of the pioneers and became ritualized.
Thats the life history of any group formed by men around these truths. They fossilize and become tombs harbouring the dead revivals of yesteryears.

samueljonah:
Menh am so fedup with it, it bores me, and denominationalism most times is lacking power and the Holy Spirit, without a any Form God's presence being available.

We must pray and speak out against godless denominationalism

Shameless idiots! Saudi Arabia refuses non Muslims to enter certain of its cities, somalia denies Israelis entry, etc and stupid self hating American s planted by Muslims want to convert the USA into France and UK with their horrible Muslim problems, pathetic. The stupid mod that wants to ban me for speaking my mind can go to blazes.

I think you have a point. Those posters talking rubbish don't know anything.

This is better than entering church like God is your mate
Enjoy your trip.

honourhim:
Yea to a large extent I believe. But the scripture admonishes us not to forsake the assembling of ourselves. The problem we have today is the abuse of the assembling by some church leaders. Ordinarily it is biblical for us to assemble.

Can this arrangement be called the assembling of ourselves together? Ourselves?? By using tactics of church growth strange to the bible the denominational system has gathered people that cannot be said to be ourselves. I'm afraid that scripture won't apply in their case.

samueljonah:
Menh am so fedup with it, it bores me, and denominationalism most times is lacking power and the Holy Spirit, without a any Form God's presence being available.

That's because denominational Christianity is a sick perversion of the Christian church. By all parameters man leads and God is expected to follow but there is a road less travelled. May God enlighten us.

MZLady39:
One thing I know is God is not into numbers...
Yes, He would love everyone on this planet Earth to surrender their lives to Him.
However, a very large number will not...we're told in the book of Revelation...However I digress.
He can use a small congregation of 50-100...who are sincere, loving Christ-like people to evangelize the world rather than a congregation of 5,000-10,000 who attend church for an emotional show but lack the spirit of Christ.

spot on.

When is a church too large And how can that sort of thing even happen? A church is too large ( population wise) when it cannot possibly accommodate everyone present ministering the message of God in their hearts; and how it happens is a pointer to a much deeper issue than church size : how and why we gather.
You know, there are invitations to assemble that God sends out to his people; I saw one of them in 1 Corinthians 14:26 "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, EVERYONE of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying". Christianity is not a spectator sport where people gather to watch somebody perform and entertain others. But that is precisely what the division into clergy/laity, or ministers/ congregation of our " churches " fosters. The advantage of having many children is to use them all as arrows , the purpose of having a team is to use them all, the reason for having an army is to use them all, and the purpose for the Church is for it to derive edification from every part.
Each one has a tongue from the father, a hymn from the father, an interpretation from him!!! That's your invitation to attend. If you dont have this IV, If you are not edifying the body , you probably shouldn't be there. People always parrot.. forsake not the assembly of ourselves together... But they forget to add ... but encouraging yourselves as we see the day approaching..., a gathering is not Church when all the team are not playing out divine strategy for the moment. When that happens its your cue to break it up, and apologize for wasting everybody's time. The denominational model that values unbridled population expansion above all else will have a problem with this. The church going christian that is eager only to go and receive will not like this. Listen folks God has put his message for the times in the spirits of all his children. It is imperative that we ALL listen carefully to hear what he is saying in our hearts and even more important to say it out quickly to his body. Quickly. Structures and formations that pretend that God only speaks to one or two men to deliver to others are a big part of the problem. From here you may ask yourselves when is a service too short , or church attendance superfluous!! The fellowship of the saints is a spiritually instigated meeting at the instance of God himself...not an appointment by humans to meet at their own instance.
A church is too big when you need an army of ushers, traffic control people, book sellers etc just to keep the arrangement propped up, all these people largely losing out of ministering and being ministered to. ( yes I've interviewed some of these security and ushering folks) And no!, traffic control is not an acceptable replacement for the spiritual service... Remember Mary and Martha?
I'm sure there may be other pointers that we are just running a show in many cases , but enough said for now. We must be wise brethren, as it is now Satan must really be feeling he has hacked Christianity's servers. You can tell him he has not.

Shared with permission.

Adiola:
useless woman ...cheat

like you know something we don't??

DLondonboiy:
Cadavers dont talk.

guy, any updates?

Firgemachar:
The Ooni of Ife will soon one day give his life to Jesus Christ in the camp.

Nobody can stop him from entering the church thereby infringing on his fundamental human rights.

Worse idol worshippers abound in the congregation.

He's a celebrity/star no doubt, that's why he's given a special place in front. He could be mobbed in the larger congregation.

No biggie!!!

you deserve a hot slap.

NobleRomm:
Jesus...... what has these Nigeria turned into..... tell them that these is God's palace and not his palace so while all these bowing down. nonsense

please tell the I'd**ts oo

scopiicaar:
u are forgetting one thing, the church is not for saints but for sinners to come to God, so everybody z allowed

big lie...the church is for saints, the mission field for sinners. But this nonsensical denominational arrangement is not church.

sarrki:
That's why we don't do religious bigotry and hatred

We are OMOLUABIS

This is not about bigotry, but about disrespect for the divine, you people railed about ezendigbo entering the deji's palace with his crown but you love the ooni entering the church of the living God with his entire court.... False pastor Adeboye is to blame. I repeat , if I curse this I'd***t he will die young. But why bother.

Very stpid I'd**t , is he bringing his smelly entourage to set up court in the palace of the king of kings? This boy is a big fool. If I curse him he wouldn't last on that throne , but...whatever. And the useless redeemed people gave him a special front seat, why I will fight denominationalism to the bitter end.