Deep Sight:

Lol. Why don't YOU show me the verse where he asserts that he IS God? ? ?

After all, he who asserts must prove.

Especially when the assertion is a psycotic claim to the divinity of one Jewish man.

I'm not quite sure you would remain sane if I were to show you. I already did point out from His own mouth that He made a claim to deity in John 5:23 - and I asked you a few questions thereto. What was your answer, you liar?

Your problem is quite pitiful. Having run out of steam to show who your oneness of infinity is, you turn round to discomfit yourself with what others believe. Deism is known for stealing doctrines from other worldviews - and even after doing so, you guys yet do not understand your own 'god' and would murder both prose, mathematics and the physical sciences in your attempt to gull or hoodwink the public about your fallacy. Is it any wonder why you have never been able to address your oneness of infinity to anyone's coherence? I have been waiting for you to dribble in your prose as you promised for your thread - you artfully dodged it with an excuse, because you know you have been lying to the public and shaming your deism.

Nevermind, when folks like you have completely lost the plot, you show your frustrations in many ways than one.

viaro:

I have asked and still asking: in which of those verses did Jesus ever say that He was not God?

I have asked you and i am still asking: in which of those verses did Jesus ever say that he WAS God? ? ? ? ?

Now please show me where Jesus denied His deity and said that He was not God in any verse - just show the verse.

Now please show me where Jesus affirmed His deity and said that He WAS God in any verse - just show the verse.

Joker.

I already did point out from His own mouth that He made a claim to deity in John 5:23

Joker. What's the import of a verse where he asks to be honoured as against the ELEVEN verses i pointed out clearly debunking the idea that he is God? ? ?

Carry on with your worship of a dead Jewish Rabbi - whatever rocks ya boat.

viaro:


Your problem is quite pitiful. Having run out of steam to show who your oneness of infinity is, you turn round to discomfit yourself with what others believe. Deism is known for stealing doctrines from other worldviews - and even after doing so, you guys yet do not understand your own 'god' and would murder both prose, mathematics and the physical sciences in your attempt to gull or hoodwink the public about your fallacy. Is it any wonder why you have never been able to address your oneness of infinity to anyone's coherence? I have been waiting for you to dribble in your prose as you promised for your thread - you artfully dodged it with an excuse, because you know you have been lying to the public and shaming your deism.

Oneness of Infinity again? Another way in which you call the Bible a book of lies?

Because the bible clearly states that God is ONE and it also states that God is INFINITE or eternal.

So ya bible agrees with the Oneness of Infinity -  each time you deny it - you are denying the Bible.

Deep Sight:

I have asked you and i am still asking: in which of those verses did Jesus ever say that he WAS God? ? ? ? ?

You have been arguing that Jesus used every opportunity to show that He was NOt God. Let me quote you: "Did Jesus not make clear AT EVERY OPPURTUNITY that he was NOT God ? ? ?"

On my part, I have shown a few verses where Jesus affirmed His Deity. I don't see any of the verses you cited as showing that Jesus denied His Deity. If you have any verse where Jesus said He was not God, please show.

Now please show me where Jesus affirmed His deity and said that He WAS God in any verse - just show the verse.

I have done so.

If you were actually an intelligent reader, that should not have been difficult to see.

Deep Sight:

Oneness of Infinity again? Another way in which you call the Bible a book of lies?

Yes, oneness of infinite - and the Bible does not teach the arrant nonsense that you tried to pass off for OOI.

Because it states that God is ONE and it also states that God is INFINITE or eternal.

That God is One and Infinite is not OOI - the oneness of infinity doctrine of your deism is a huge lie - we have tried to follow you to show this, but you kept jumping from one infinity to three infinities to zero infinity to a singularity that collapsed into an illiterate nothingness. That is not what the Bible teaches, and only cultists with red eyes go about stealing words and claiming the Bible teaches their cultism.

So ya bible agrees with the Oneness of Infinity - each time you deny it - you are denying the Bible.

Nope, the Bible does not teach the deistic oneness of infinity. That is another attempt to gull the public, because since you have failed to impress even yourself on that rubbish, you think by hanging it on the Bible, all would be fair weather. Please find another illiterate  excuse to hang your non-starter.

Deep Sight:

Joker. What's the import of a verse where he asks to be honoured as against the ELEVEN verses i pointed out clearly debunking the idea that he is God? ? ?

Carry on with your worship of a dead Jewish Rabbi - whatever rocks ya boat.

I honour Him because He says so - John 5:23. Cultists who go about with red lies all over the place are the ones who deny that verse and refer to it as "his delusions".

viaro:


On my part, I have shown a few verses where Jesus affirmed His Deity.

On my part, I have shown a few verses where Jesus denied his Deity.

I don't see any of the verses you cited as showing that Jesus denied His Deity.

I don't see any of the verses you cited as showing that Jesus affirmed His Deity.

If you have any verse where Jesus said He was not God, please show.

If you have any verse where Jesus said He WAS God, please show

If you were actually an intelligent reader, that should not have been difficult to see.

I have provided proof in to-to. If you were actually an intelligent reader, that should not have been difficult to see.

Deep Sight:

On my part, I have shown a few verses where Jesus denied his Deity.

Pathological liar. None of the verses you cited showed Jesus denying His deity, but rather affirming His Humanity. Both His Humanity and Deity are taught in both the OT and NT. Try again, liar.

I don't see any of the verses you cited as showing that Jesus affirmed His Deity.

John 5:23. Lie again.

If you have any verse where Jesus said He WAS God, please show

Did already - and a few, refer to my reply here. You're not half smart.

I have provided proof in to-to. If you were actually an intelligent reader, that should not have been difficult to see.

No one intelligent enough would be mixing up and confusing between His Humanity and His Deity. Could you please try lying again? Thanks in advance.

Well Viaro; i have given ELEVEN verses many of which explicity kill off the idea of the deity of Christ. I am not inclined to help you through the grammar as you always expect me to: as any body who reads those verses can see that he denied divinity severally.

@ OP - My sincere apologies for derailing the thread.

Miracles occuring;immediate or not immediate, are all dependent on the will and mercy of God. It is not about the faith or amount of faith.

jo agbaje said something about praying for the dead to rise and none had risen yet. He alluded that his faith not being at a certain level was the reason for this.

That is false. The bible says if one's faith could even be as little as that of a mustard seed, a lot could happen. . . . . . . .

So, it isn't about the faith not being at a particular level that some miracles do not happen or whatever. It all depends on God's will and purpose as regarding that point in time.
If it is not God's will that a dead person rise again, there is no amount or level of faith displayed or acted upon that can raise such a person to life.

One thing we should always remember in our prayers or hopes in faith is that God's will is supreme and if our intentions and desires fall in line with it, a lot could and can happen.


1 John 5:14

Deep Sight:

Well Viaro; i have given ELEVEN verses many of which explicity kill off the idea of the deity of Christ. I am not inclined to help you through the grammar as you always expect me to: as any body who reads those verses can see that he denied divinity severally.

You were not half witted to discuss the subject; and if I were a deist I could have fetched well over a hundred verses in both the OT and NT about the Humanity of Jesus and used them to argue endlessly against His deity. I only gave you at most three verses of the NT showing the affirmation of His Deity, and the fact that Jesus did not deny His deity in any of the verses you cited is very telling.

I have no problem with your deism, as long as you don't try to use your narrow reflections to bedevil Christians for what they believe. You many times act like a fanatic - and I should have known the fact before trying to mellow things off on your behalf when Atheists pointed out your misplaced fundamentalism. You can discuss with people without fanatically barking your slobbers at them simply because they believe differently from your narrow deism. It is issues like the way you act that engender unnecessary diatribes and rubbishes your own worldview, not to mention altogether derailing threads. What happened to you?

@ OP - My sincere apologies for derailing the thread.

You should change from this attitude.

ttalks:

jo agbaje said something about praying for the dead to rise and none had risen yet. He alluded that his faith not being at a certain level was the reason for this.

That is false. The bible says if one's faith could even be as little as that of a mustard seed, a lot could happen. . . . . . . .

So, it isn't about the faith not being at a particular level that some miracles do not happen or whatever. It all depends on God's will and purpose as regarding that point in time.

@ttalks,

Thanks for the points you made - I appreciate some, and the above may need a balancing off.

Faith is important in our walk with God at every level - we all know that. Yet, in some matters, we recognize that we need to 'strengthen' our faith (Luke 17:5 - 'the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith').

Perhaps, at other times though, we need to recognize that a faith as small as a mustard seed is not sufficient to accomplish certain results. 'Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting' (Matt. 17:21).

Yet, I appreciate your point that 'all depends on God's will and purpose as regarding that point in time'.

viaro:

What happened to you?

What happened to you too, Viaro: You always seemed amiable and decent: of late your tongue competes with Tudor's!

And i quote this from YOUR comments in the thread you referenced above:

Being bigoted and caustic towards others seems to be the inevitable recourse when someone challenges our own belief systems, whatever they are: deism, theism or atheism.

Could it be that you are caustic to me just because i challenge your belief system?

@DeepSight

You asked for an instance of Jesus claim to Deity

John 8:58  Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."

Compare that answer to this

Exo 3:14  God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'

You can imagine the impact of Jesus' words to the Jews. That statement affirmed his preexistence, "before Abraham was" and his Deity "I am"

Any wonder then that they reacted thus:

Joh 8:59  So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

And that wasn't the only time

John 10:30-33  I and the Father are one." [/b]The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"  The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because [b]you, being a man, make yourself God."

The Jews clearly understood Jesus' claim to Deity. Why don't you?

@ viaro.
Thanks for your observations but I 'd like to respond a bit.
1. Like I stated in my post, there are other types of healings (I will still post more concerning the other types) apart from the miraculous ones. Indeed, not all healing described in the bible was miraculous (Epaphroditus, Trophimus, Timothy). But where it occurred, the bible often gave enough detail so that what occurred was verifiable.
2. Where WoF proponents get it wrong is their not distinguishing between God's providential processes which can occur through natural healing and miracles of the sort described in the bible.
3. The distorted doctrine of WoF discountenances God's sovereignty, a point that ttalks made earlier.
4. That I placed heart failure in parentheses after dropsy was to help the non-medical have a better understanding of that archaic word (By virtue of my training I am well aware of the various connotations of that word).

Otherwise, I do not think I disagree much with you

aletheia:

@DeepSight

You asked for an instance of Jesus claim to Deity
Compare that answer to this
You can imagine the impact of Jesus' words to the Jews. That statement affirmed his preexistence, "before Abraham was" and his Deity "I am"

Any wonder then that they reacted thus:
And that wasn't the only time

The Jews clearly understood Jesus' claim to Deity. Why don't you?

1. At the very best that can only serve as a claim to being an eternal being. That is much different from claiming to be the primordial uncaused cause itself.

2. So what if he said "I AM?" Anybody can say the same: it would not make them God! Guri Maharaji says the same; so does Olumba Olumba Obu and gazillions of cult-like sect leaders thoughout history. Are they all God? Please.

3. If that was his intention then please explain why he dliberately misguided a simple fellow who called him "good teacher" - rushing to immediately state that such an appellation cannot apply to him and must be reserved for God. Care to also explain at whose right hand he is said to rise to be sitted at in heaven? Care to explain why he states that he is not omniscient, whereas God is? I could go on.

It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

That was the Jews ignorant presumption. Because Jesus made himself pretty clear on what the statement "I and the Father are one" meant.

Jesus himself explained the term "I and my Father are one" severally. He stated unequivocally that he and his father were one in the same way as we should be one with him. Now are you Jesus? No. But you are one with him in spirit as a christian, yes?

Thus the oneness was a oneness of accord, and not an ontological or existential oneness as an entity.

This verse elucidates and proves the point:

John 17:20-23: “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.”

Its abundantly clear that its a spiritual and not ontological or existential oneness. There. That's Bible proof.

aletheia:

@ viaro.
Thanks for your observations but I 'd like to respond a bit.
1. Like I stated in my post, there are other types of healings (I will still post more concerning the other types) apart from the miraculous ones. Indeed, not all healing described in the bible was miraculous (Epaphroditus, Trophimus, Timothy). But where it occurred, the bible often gave enough detail so that what occurred was verifiable.
2. Where WoF proponents get it wrong is their not distinguishing between God's providential processes which can occur through natural healing and miracles of the sort described in the bible.
3. The distorted doctrine of WoF discountenances God's sovereignty, a point that ttalks made earlier.
4. That I placed heart failure in parentheses after dropsy was to help the non-medical have a better understanding of that archaic word (By virtue of my training I am well aware of the various connotations of that word).

Otherwise, I do not think I disagree much with you

@aletheia, many thanks and God's blessings be yours.

Deep Sight:

What happened to you too, Viaro: You always seemed amiable and decent: of late your tongue competes with Tudor's!

Nope, ask Tudor: my tongue could be far sharper where it matters. I just don't think your fanatical attitude against Christians should be treated with kids gloves, especially after repeatedly calling your attention to your misplaced fundamentalism.

And i quote this from YOUR comments in the thread you referenced above:

Could it be that you are caustic to me just because i challenge your belief system?

Not at all - I could care much less whatever you want to 'challenge'. Fact is, you're not challenging nothing but rather seeking grounds so many times to vomit your arrogance on Christians for finding your deism at odds with Biblical teaching.

It's quite laughable that after apologising for derailing the thread, you would not let up on that. You're a very funny character indeed.

Deep Sight:

1. At the very best that can only serve as a claim to being an eternal being. That is much different from claiming to be the primordial uncaused cause itself.

Please show me an instance of any other "eternal Being" and what it connotes for such a Being to be eternal as different from an "uncaused cause" itself.

2. So what if he said "I AM?" Anybody can say the same: it would not make them God! Guri Maharaji says the same; so does Olumba Olumba Obu and gazillions of cult-like sect leaders thoughout history. Are they all God? Please.

Christ did not deny the fact that many people would come claiming that they were Christs or that they would come in His Name (Matt. 24:5). Funny that Christ did not come claiming that He was Olumba Olumba or Guru whatever, haha! But that any of these folks may be said to have claimed to be Christ or God in the Biblical sense does not qualify them so, in so much that none of them could point to any verse attesting such claims for themselves. We're not on here about your concerns for cults - I earlier noted that you were close to that very thing in the manner you argue this issue.

3. If that was his intention then please explain why he dliberately misguided a simple fellow who called him "good teacher" - rushing to immediately state that such an appellation cannot apply to him and must be reserved for God. Care to also explain at whose right hand he is said to rise to be sitted at in heaven? Care to explain why he states that he is not omniscient, whereas God is? I could go on.

He did not misguide any fellow. The verse you quoted does not read what you wanted it to read:
(a) yours: {"Mark 10:18: “Do not call me good, only God is good.”}
(b) KJV: {"Mark 10:18: "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."}

In that verse, Jesus was not asserting that the enquirer should not call Him good; rather, He questioned the enquirer: "Why do you call me good". Nor does that verse say that Jesus denied His deity - notice He did not say: 'do not call me God', or you would be again lying through your yellow teeth, sorry.

However, that it was a question is in sync with His manner of highlighting a most pivotal subject. In Luke 6:46, He employed that same linguistic device - "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord," - which is not saying that He was denying His Lordship! In very fact, He affirmed His Lordship to His disciples in John 13:13 - "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am."

Perhaps you ought to be careful when citing verses for what they imply rather than trying to make far fetched implications of what those verses do not say, in your attempt to gull your readers. Mark 10:18 does not read Jesus saying "Do not call me good" - rather, it questioned the enquirer: "Why callest thou me good?" Does He also deny that He was good? No, unless you want to again attempt to gull your readers by ignoring His statements in other passages where Jesus categorically referred to Himself as "good" -

* Matthew 20:15 - 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
Is thine eye evil, because I am good?'

* John 10:14 - 'I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep,
and am known of mine.'

Mark 10:18 does not tell us that Jesus was denying His Deity, sorry.

That was the Jews ignorant presumption. Because Jesus made himself pretty clear on what the statement "I and the Father are one" meant.

Jesus himself explained the term "I and my Father are one" severally. He stated unequivocally that he and his father were one in the same way as we should be one with him. Now are you Jesus? No. But you are one with him in spirit as a christian, yes?

Thus the oneness was a oneness of accord, and not an ontological or existential oneness as an entity.

You need to go over to Revelation where Jesus Himself attested to His Deity on the same basis as the Father. When you do so, then you would begin to understand that your ontological excuses are best left to small minds - which was prolly why you could be so comical as to have referred to His statements in John 5:23 as "his delusions". When the pie suits your gull, you frantically quote it; but when other verses from the same Bible begin to waste your arguments, you turn round and try to write off the direct statements of Jesus as "delusions", no?

Its abundantly clear that its a spiritual and not ontological or existential oneness. There. That's Bible proof.

Spiritually and ontologically, no where does Jesus deny His deity. That He affirmed His Humanity is undoubted; but we are yet to see any verses where He had categorically denied His Deity.

@Deep Sight,

This is besides whatever opinion you have recently gained about me. . .

I want to remind you of our discussion some weeks ago, where I clearly outlined the hypostasis of Christ's nature using an analogy of a movie-director, a movie star and a script-writer, where ALL are the same person; compare that with The Holy Spirit of God, Jesus Christ the manifest Word of God, and God the Father. But even then, you still said it could not make sense that way. We agreed to disagree.

IMO, I don't think this deity / humanity thing could be further explained to you, it may be like trying to explain the taste of pepper to someone who is new to all spices.

Deep Sight:

I have asked you and i am still asking: in which of those verses did Jesus ever say that he WAS God? ? ? ? ?
Now please show me where Jesus affirmed His deity and said that He WAS God in any verse - just show the verse.
Joker.

Jesus did not need to claim he was God , there is no point asking for verses on that. He is not the one to bear witness of himself.He was a focused person. He would rather refer you to testimony of others concernig him.

The book of Isaiah had testified of him before;

Luke 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

When John sent people to confirm his messiaship he only made reference to the testimony of Isaiah: He didnt say I am Messiah or I am not.

Luke 7:20
When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? [22] Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

He doesnt bear witness of himself.He will rather refer to the witness of God through others

John 5:31-32
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
[32] There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

So if you want to know if je was God check the witnesses of the father through the prophets about him
but if you are just concerned about his personal claim to be God ,like those muslim schollars , it is waste of time because his purpose was not to come as God even though he is God. he is more concerned about his humanity as man's representative being the Last Adam.

1 John 4:2-3
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: [3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

But was he God ? Yes he was and he is. how do you know? from the witnesses of others.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Col. 1:16-17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: [17] And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Deep Sight:

Sat down at the right hand side of whom - himself? ? ? ? ?

I laugh.

Right hand side is not making reference t a geographical position but rather a spirituual position of authority. Is like calling someone your righthand man. It doesnt mean Jesus is seated at right side chair. Dont take it literary

Ephes. 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

If we should take this literary ,Are you in heaven now?

What proof do we have those miracles really happened? Since traditional jews dont accept jesus as their messiah, i think it is safe to assume that the miracles never took place.
Reason for my assumption: i dont think the scribes, rabbis, pharisees etc would have doubted:
1. Feeding 5000 people with little food.
2. Walking on water.
3. Resurrection.
4. Waking the dead.
5. Withering a tree with word of mouth.
6. Making the blind see.
7. Turning water to stout wine.
If only they really witnessed it.


Could they be that cynical not to listen to a carpenter who in their presence performed the above feats? Me doubts it.


Meanwhile, these gospel miracle accounts came many years after the death of jesus. That to me, explains why their accounts, sequence and chronology are not uniform on so many occasions.

viaro:

It's quite laughable that after apologising for derailing the thread, you would not let up on that. You're a very funny character indeed.

Please show me an instance of any other "eternal Being" and what it connotes for such a Being to be eternal as different from an "uncaused cause" itself.

Christ did not deny the fact that many people would come claiming that they were Christs or that they would come in His Name (Matt. 24:5). Funny that Christ did not come claiming that He was Olumba Olumba or Guru whatever, haha! But that any of these folks may be said to have claimed to be Christ or God in the Biblical sense does not qualify them so, in so much that none of them could point to any verse attesting such claims for themselves. We're not on here about your concerns for cults - I earlier noted that you were close to that very thing in the manner you argue this issue.

He did not misguide any fellow. The verse you quoted does not read what you wanted it to read:
(a) yours: {"Mark 10:18: “Do not call me good, only God is good.”}
(b) KJV: {"Mark 10:18: "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."}

In that verse, Jesus was not asserting that the enquirer should not call Him good; rather, He questioned the enquirer: "Why do you call me good". Nor does that verse say that Jesus denied His deity - notice He did not say: 'do not call me God', or you would be again lying through your yellow teeth, sorry.

However, that it was a question is in sync with His manner of highlighting a most pivotal subject. In Luke 6:46, He employed that same linguistic device - "And why call ye me, Lord, Lord," - which is not saying that He was denying His Lordship! In very fact, He affirmed His Lordship to His disciples in John 13:13 - "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am."

Perhaps you ought to be careful when citing verses for what they imply rather than trying to make far fetched implications of what those verses do not say, in your attempt to gull your readers. Mark 10:18 does not read Jesus saying "Do not call me good" - rather, it questioned the enquirer: "Why callest thou me good?" Does He also deny that He was good? No, unless you want to again attempt to gull your readers by ignoring His statements in other passages where Jesus categorically referred to Himself as "good" -

* Matthew 20:15 - 'Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own?
Is thine eye evil, because I am good?'

* John 10:14 - 'I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep,
and am known of mine.'

Mark 10:18 does not tell us that Jesus was denying His Deity, sorry.

You need to go over to Revelation where Jesus Himself attested to His Deity on the same basis as the Father. When you do so, then you would begin to understand that your ontological excuses are best left to small minds - which was prolly why you could be so comical as to have referred to His statements in John 5:23 as "his delusions". When the pie suits your gull, you frantically quote it; but when other verses from the same Bible begin to waste your arguments, you turn round and try to write off the direct statements of Jesus as "delusions", no?

Spiritually and ontologically, no where does Jesus deny His deity. That He affirmed His Humanity is undoubted; but we are yet to see any verses where He had categorically denied His Deity.

This is a comical explanation. God saying to a human - "Why callest me good - only God is good."

? ? ? ? ? ?

But enough: i have derailed the thread enough. Another day.

Deep Sight:

This is a comical explanation. God saying to a human - "Why callest me good - only God is good."

? ? ? ? ? ?

You just can't live up your trademark anymore of trying to gull the public by misquoting Mark 10:18, no? Sorry, it hasn't worked, does not work, and will not work any duplicity you've been waving up and down the street - not with viaro. You're a serious joke on the internet.

But enough: i have derailed the thread enough. Another day.

Get lost. You often derail threads and there's nothing better you ever do. "Another day" indeed - like you had anything news-worthy in the first place. Lost son of an illiterate 'oneness of infinity'.

ilosiwaju:

Reason for my assumption: i dont think the scribes, rabbis, pharisees etc would have doubted:
. . .
3. Resurrection.
4. Waking the dead.
. . .
If only they really witnessed it.

Could they be that cynical not to listen to a carpenter who in their presence performed the above feats? Me doubts it.

Hehehe. . you must be kidding. You never read John 11, no? That is a chapter amongst several that point to 'resurrection' and 'waking the dead'. The same folks you highlighted were not oblivious of Lazarus being raised from the dead (see verses 37 and 44). And what result did this produce in the Jews who witnessed that event? See verse 45 - "Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him".

Not only so, these eye witnesses took the news of that event to the Pharisees (verse 46). However, the very next verse is your answer - for the same Pharisees confessed what they could not deny: "Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles" (verse 47).

Your 'assumption' was misplaced.

I laugh when pple ask for proof of Jesus' miracles&sayings,its still amounts to frivolity to ask such questions.Matthew,mark,james,john,peter&paul(appointed later) were witnesses to d life&times of Jesus

As I stated in an earlier post there are basically five types of healing in the world today.
1. Biblical Divine Healing,
2. Natural Healing,
3. Medicinal/Medical Healing,
4. Psychological Healing, and
5. Paranormal/Demonic Healing.

Having dealt with Biblical Divine Healing, let me address natural healing

Natural Healing
Natural healing is a feature that God created in all plant, animal and human life. The information needed to effect a great deal of healing in the human body is part of our genetic code. Natural healing is the type of healing that occurs most often. It is truly a gift from God, but most people don't even give it a second thought. There is evidence for Natural Healing in the Bible
1.

Lev 13:18 "If there is in the skin of one's body a boil and it heals,

2.

Jos 5:8 When the circumcising of the whole nation was finished, they remained in their places in the camp until they were healed.

3.

Isa 38:21 Now Isaiah had said, "Let them take a cake of figs and apply it to the boil, that he may recover."

4.

Php 2:27 Indeed he was ill, near to death. But God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

5.

2Ti 4:20 Erastus remained at Corinth, and I left Trophimus, who was ill, at Miletus.

God created us, carries (sustains) us, and rescues us (Isaiah 46:4).

Psa 139:13-14 For you formed my inward parts; you knitted me together in my mother's womb. I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; my soul knows it very well.

We must be careful to be truthful about what is Natural Healing versus Divine Healing.
They are two radically different processes.
(a) Slow
Natural Healing is, for many reasons, a slow process. Over time the body heals itself, giving itself time to rest and recoup.
(b) May or may not last
Natural Healing usually lasts until the next sickness, injury or other problem presents itself. But Natural Healing is not always a cure all. There are times when the body is overwhelmed and, without outside help, it cannot heal itself. Also, if the body becomes weakened, such as a weak immune system, the body may no longer be able to repair itself and disease may continually reoccur.
(c) Verifiable and hard to verify
Natural healing is many times verifiable because it is obvious when a person gets better (e.g. headache goes away), when a cut heals, etc. But it can also occur yet be mistaken for other types of healing. A person may think the pill they are taking for Medicinal Healing cured them, but it could be mainly due to Natural Healing or other types of healing.
(d) God deserves the glory, mostly glory is given to man
Though God deserves all the glory for creating our bodies with the wonderful ability to repair themselves, most of the glory these days is being given to man. The Bible teaches that we are actually devolved from the pure genetic code of Adam and Eve and those who lived before the flood. Unfortunately man often glories in his own abilities and attributes without giving credit where credit is ultimately due.
Natural Healing happens over and over through the lifetime of the individual. Unfortunately WoF mistakes natural healing for biblical divine healing (i.e. confusing God's providential provision with the miraculous)

Biblical Divine Healing is a one time event dealing with a specific disease. God has provided the body with marvelous self healing functions. But Natural Healing is not Biblical Divine Healing. God can work through Natural Healing, but it is not Biblical Divine Healing as was demonstrated by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

Why did this thread die?

Seems very significant in light of the practice of obtaining forms, going through admission processes, being allocated wheelchairs and used for entertainment nowadays.

Continuing from post #92 above.

Medicinal/Medical Healing

Medicinal healing can be obtained by using plants, herbs and many other substances God created for us to use. Because of the accumulated human learning we have acquired over the millennia that God's grace has tarried, we also have much wisdom in the healing arts that have been passed down to us. Practitioners of Medical Healing today are doctors, dentists, and many other healing professions.

There is a lot of evidence of Medicinal Healing in the Bible (2 Chronicles 28:15, Jeremiah 8:22, 1 Timothy 4:3,5:23) as well as Medical Healing (Ezekiel 30:21, Colossians 4:14). Interestingly, the nations will eventually be healed by the fruit and leaves from a tree, the Tree of Life (Ezekiel 47:12, Revelation 22:2).

Medicinal/Medical Healing should not be confused with Divine Healing. They are totally different.

(a) Mostly slow, rarely fast

Most treatments, both medicinally and medically, promote slow healing. There are a few exceptions. A shot of pain killer can quickly mask pain. Ice water on a burn can almost immediately soothe the pain. But in both these cases actual healing takes a longer time.

(b) May or may not last

This type of healing can promote lasting healing, but can also simply give temporary healing.

(c) Fairly verifiable

Medicinal Healing is fairly verifiable when Natural Healing has not worked. But there are other factors that could also be at play, including Psychological Healing. Medical Healing can often be measured when accurate charts are kept. But again it is not an exact science and other factors could be at play at the same time.

(d) God deserves the glory; mostly glory is given to man

Again, God deserves the glory for creating the plants and other natural materials necessary to develop medicines. He also deserves the glory for allowing the human race to be around long enough to, through trial and error, develop what is today medical knowledge that can help many people. Unfortunately the glory usually goes to the medicine or the medical practitioner.

Medicinal/Medical Healing generally happens over and over through the lifetime of the individual for various problems that can reoccur if not treated. Biblical Divine Healing is a one time event dealing with a specific disease. God can and does use Medicinal/Medical Healing to heal people, particularly when righteous Christians are praying that the Lord will give the medical practitioner wisdom to know how to treat a given problem. But it is not Biblical Divine Healing as was demonstrated by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.

Psychological Healing

There are many helps to healing that come under the heading of Psychological Healing, some positive and some negative. In the positive category would be things like positive thinking. The benefits of positive thinking and having a happy, carefree attitude have an effect on health issues, especially on emotional problems. But it can also affect the physical, particularly where the root problem is psychological to begin with. Keep in mind that positive thinking is not Divine Healing, but is a change of attitude. Adrenaline and serotonin can also play a role in making people feel better, even in thinking they are healed when they aren't. This is one of the key factors we see in the modern "faith healer" crusades. People are pronounced healed by Biblical Divine Healing who have merely been manipulated to the point where adrenaline or serotonin are released, thus helping them to get up out of their wheelchair for a time, or feel like they are healed. The problem is that this is a temporary condition and wears off. It can even be detrimental to their health in the long run. Along with emotional manipulation to get people to the point where their body excretes pain reducing chemicals, is outright hypnosis. This is another trick in the "faith healer's" bag of tricks. People are brainwashed and put into an altered state of consciousness by loud repetitious music, repetition of key phrases, group dynamics and reinforcement techniques, and other cultic practices. Finally they end up in a type of trance state where they suspend their cognitive faculties in favor of a pure emotional experience. This can lead to delusions of healing and visions that are not real. Hypnosis has ties to Paranormal/Demonic Healing that cannot be ignored.

(a) Sometimes immediate, mostly slow

Sometimes an immediate rush of body chemicals can cause temporary alleviation of pain, euphoria, etc. But this is not true healing, it is only temporary. Generally positive thinking is a slow process that may bring some healing over time.

(b) May or may not last

Again, the effects of Psychological Healing are only lasting if the original condition was psychologically induced, or if the emotional state of the person directly affects their physical health. Chemicals and hypnosis usually wear off over time. In any cases, this type of "healing" is temporary over time and will have to be "experienced" over and over.

(c) Almost impossible to verify

Needless to say, Psychological Healing is almost impossible to verify in any way known to modern science, or even experientially. That "faith healers" would use this type of healing to justify themselves is scandalous when science can't even adequately explain the mechanisms and effects involved.

(d) God deserves the glory, mostly glory is given to self

Though God does deserve the glory for creating the mind and body that responds to Natural Healing, Medicinal/Medical Healing and Psychological Healing, this type of healing is rarely attributed to God. It is almost always attributed to psychology, faith healers or the individual. God does help people emotionally, mentally, psychologically to promote healing, but it is not Biblical Divine Healing as was demonstrated by Jesus Christ and the Apostles.