Babs787, kudos to you. You even read more of the bible than the quran. Are you sure you are really a muslim or is it that the quran is so difficult and incomprehensible that most muslims resort to quoting bible verses to support the quran?

Does Allah have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to say on this issue?

@davidylan,

Alhamdulillah, I am muslim and will die as one. I have told part of my story that made me familair with biblical verses. I do read the bible too but read the Quran more because the bible cannot stand the bible.

The Quran has never been incomprehensible for me. Allah made it easier for me to read, understand and apply to day-to-day activities.

By the way, what do you mean by your last paragraph? Please explain:

*Does Allah have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to say on this issue? *

@babs787,

Let me start too with biblical verses.

Proverb 12 v 1: to learn, you must love discipline , it is stupid to hate correction.
Proverb 9 v 9; Teach the wise, and they will be wiser. Teach the righteous and they will learn more.

I hope you will learn from the verses you quoted above.  The second sentence of Proverbs 9:9 does not apply to you anyway.  It applies only to the righteous and even Muhammad who asks for forgivenes 70 times dail can never lay claim to being righteous.

Its very funny how you condemn my own similarities but come out with just only one similarity.
You think that other's post is inferior to yours as long as its not in agreement with yours. How could you be telling me that the bible didnt refer to marital status, manner of death etc but the same verse could refer to seeing God face to face, just only one similarity!!!

The reason why I do not agree with the similarities you mentioned is because they are not in line with what the Bible teaches.  The Bible is very clear that the uniqneness of Moses is not in his marriage, life, death or anything of the likes.  His uniqueness is in the fact that while God may talk to other prophets in dreams etc, God talks to Moses face to face.  When we understand why Moses is unique, we must then realise that any Prophet likened unto him must possess that same uniqueness as Moses.  This is very simple to grasp if you will just get over your bias.

#Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken#
Why not view it from the phrase, 'from among thy brethren', 'I will put my words in his mouth' and not relying only on 'like unto thee' , maybe that will provide better understanding. You cannot give me just one similarity to accept out of like five that I listed out for you.

You are venturing on a lost cause here.  Stimulus has provided a very good understanding of the phrase 'from among thy brethren' which you are twisting.  Apart from what Stimulus wrote, all you need do is read throught the entire chapter in Deuteronomy 18. The phrase "from among they brethren" is used in other instances and it is a direct reference to the brothers of Isreal, and the Lord was very clear when He said "in the midst of thee".  Arabs were not in their midst when the Lord gave that promise. 

Now that we have established that Muhammad, an Arab is not a member of the tribe of Isreal and he is not 'like unto Moses', we await your other proof linking Moses to Muhammad. You have promised over and over to provide these but you are yet to come forward with anything.  Are those websites running out of ideas?

You should also note that the jews were expecting three
different personalities: Elijah, the prophet and the Messiah.

Jesus is the Messiah and the prophet they were expecting.  They just didn't understand the different roles He had to play.

#on the other hand, the Bible declares was "face to face with God - That is the literal translation of John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, the word was face to face with God and God was the Word.  And of course, there are many scripturres that indicate the nearness of Jesus to the Father that we can present here as facts.#

Hey, you are giving the bible your own meaning different from the original meaning. See, me I no dey oo.

You only need to pick up a Greek Bible to understand this.

I have given similarities in which some are with regards to their birth, family life, death, career, encounter with enemies, results of encounters, writing down of revelation, nature of teachings, claimed nature etc as against your only one similarity of seeing God face to face.

Like I said, the similarities you mentioned do not hold water as it is evident in virtually all the Prophets.  The only thing that will make any prophet like Moses is if the Prophet talks to God face to face.  How hard is it to understand these very clear scriptures: Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Numbers 12: 6 he said, "Listen to my words: "When a prophet of the Lord is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams. 7 But this is not true of my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. 8 With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the Lord.

@tayod


#Are those websites running out of ideas?#


That is the belief of all christians here. So all muslims that have been given you biblical verses have been lifting from websites. Nobody challenged you when you lifted your claim from answeringislam. I read there how they told you never to accept the other similarities but to hold on to the one you are laying claim to now. Why are you referring me to Greek bible? Is that Jesus’ language? You should have referred me to Aramaic bible where Muhammed was mentioned.

You have never debunked anything with regards to the issue of brethren, stimulus gave his own opinion which is left for me to accept or to rebut. So if you are laying claim to only one similarity, too bad then. I have given you the reasons why the Arabs are the brethren of the Jews, so its left for you to accept or not.

Tayod, Why is it that Muhammed is really the problem of many christians? There is nowhere we will discuss issue and you will not say anything concerning him. Well, I am not God, its for God to decide but mind you, this same Jesus will not be able to stand for you on that day. Did you say that jesus is very righteous and that he never sinned? Let me ask you, what is baptism for?

It is not that what I gave are not in line with biblical passages but they are not in line with your own reasoning and as long they are not in line with yours, they will always be rejected. You are telling me to accept that of seeing God face to face but forgot that other areas did not make Jesus in any way similar to Moses. Let me have verses referring to Jews as being "brethren" to each other.

Remember that Ishmael was blessed, his nation would be multiplied etc

Genesis 17v 20: As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.

Jews were also blessed too as in:

Deuteronomy, chapter 4 v 6 : Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations, who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'

But along the line, Jesus came and said referring to the nation of the jew:

Matthew 21 v 43: Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

I will wait for your interpretation of the above verse

So brother, if you still do not accept that the prophecy was for Muhammed, let me have verses in the bible where ‘brethren’ were used for jews and we will continue from there.

@babs787,

For your information, I have never read through anything in answering islam that you mentioned. I've being trained to always avoid plagiarism and I will always refernce my sources if any.

Have you read through my response at all? I told you the same phrase "among thine brethren" used in that prophecy is utilised in other verses of the same chapter. I will not point out the verses to you hoping you will read through the entire chapter in context. Please go back and read through the entire chapter of Deuteronomy 18 again. The answer you seek is right in there.

@babs787,

I'd like to address a few misconception in your rejoinder to TayoD.

babs787:

I read there how they told you never to accept the other similarities but to hold on to the one you are laying claim to now. Why are you referring me to Greek bible?

If that were true, it would indeed be such a sad undertaking - excatly parallel to the very same thing that Muslims are many times asked to do: hold on only to what the Imams have said, and no more (even if the Imams have been proven many such times to be colossally wrong!).

If one refers you to the Greek Bible, we should be thankful for that; because it helps to read issues in their context and minimize the often stretched inferences many Muslims draw.

babs787:

You have never debunked anything with regards to the issue of brethren, stimulus gave his own opinion which is left for me to accept or to rebut. So if you are laying claim to only one similarity, too bad then. I have given you the reasons why the Arabs are the brethren of the Jews, so its left for you to accept or not.

Lord willing, before the weekend runs out I'll be offering you a contextual write-up to straighten out this convoluted idea that the Arabs are the 'brethren' referred to in Deuteronomy 18.

babs787:

Tayod, Why is it that Muhammed is really the problem of many christians?

Another way of phrasing that question would be: Why is it that JEWS and CHRISTIANS were a real problem to Muhammad, and continue to be so to most MUSLIMS today?

babs787:

Did you say that jesus is very righteous and that he never sinned? Let me ask you, what is baptism for?

Jesus never sinned - and He is both righteous and as well our righteousness. Not so many muslims have said to my hearing that Jesus sinned; but if you're one of the few who hold to that idea, could you please show me where in the Qur'an that idea is offered?

babs787:

It is not that what I gave are not in line with biblical passages but they are not in line with your own reasoning and as long they are not in line with yours, they will always be rejected. You are telling me to accept that of seeing God face to face but forgot that other areas did not make Jesus in any way similar to Moses. Let me have verses referring to Jews as being "brethren" to each other.

For fairness sake, how many times have discussants shown that your ideas of Biblical narratives are way off by many miles? You're only crying this hoo-ha now because you had hoped to clober readers into your misgivings. And how many times have Christians also challenged some of the issues of Islam and the Qur'an, and Muslims have come back disagreeing - and doing so without recourse to well-reasoned counters?

babs787:

Remember that Ishmael was blessed, his nation would be multiplied etc

Genesis 17v 20: As for Ishmael, I am heeding you: I hereby bless him. I will make him fertile and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall become the father of twelve chieftains, and I will make of him a great nation.

Jews were also blessed too as in:

Deuteronomy, chapter 4 v 6 : Observe them carefully, for thus will you give evidence of your wisdom and intelligence to the nations, who will hear of all these statutes and say, 'This great nation is truly a wise and intelligent people.'

ISHMAEL (from whom descended the Ishmaelites) is NOT the "brethren" of JACOB (from whom descended the Israelites/Jews). I've spelt that out before. Besides, Ishmael and Isaac were half-brothers as much as the sons of Keturah (same father Abraham; different mothers - Gen. 16:15; 17:21 and 25:1-2). At best, you could say that Ishmael was UNCLE to JACOB; and not directly a BROTHER!

babs787:

But along the line, Jesus came and said referring to the nation of the jew:

Matthew 21 v 43: Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

I will wait for your interpretation of the above verse

Jesus was not referring to "the nation of the Jews" as a whole in that verse. Rather, he was referring to the obstinate and legalistic chief priests and elders of the people - you can't mix them up in context, especially if you read verses 23 and 45 of that chapter. The latter verse clearly indicated the people Jesus' speeach was directed at: "And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard His parables, they perceived that He spake of them."

See? Another forced Islamic slant, but not effective enough to score another feather to your cap! 

babs787:

So brother, if you still do not accept that the prophecy was for Muhammed, let me have verses in the bible where ‘brethren’ were used for jews and we will continue from there.

Okay, in due course they will be served. Cheerio! 

@babs787,

Here's my response to your earlier request for an outline of the similarities between Moses and Jesus. First, I would like to lay out a structure for this discussion.

Most Muslim apologists strenuously arguing for Muhammad in Deuteronomy 18 hinge their convictions on just two main points :

(a) "a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee" (vs. 18) - therefore, they suppose he must be an Arab from Ishmael, since it is supposed that the Ishmaelites are brethren to the Jews;

(b) "and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them" (vs. 18) - hence, Muhammad was purported to have received Allah's undiluted word in the recitations of the Qur'an.

The fallacies behind these thoughts are self-evident. Who are the brethren of the Jews to whom Moses referred in Deut. 18:15 & 18? And did Muhammad have a similar experience as Moses to whom God spoke "face to face"? We shall be closely examining these two positions from a Biblical perspective.

The Prophet Like Unto Moses - Jesus or Muhammad?

Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18.
¹⁵The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me;
unto him ye shall hearken; ¹⁸I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee,
and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

Three things are brought to our attention in these verses concerning the similarities:

1. the profile of the Prophet - He is to be "like unto" Moses.
2. the kinship of the Prophet - He is to emerge from within Israel ('from the midst of thee, of thy brethren')
3. the prophetic message of the Prophet - He shall speak the very Word put in His mouth.

1. The Profile of the Prophet.

Who was Moses as a prophet of God? This question is important, because nothing bears any weight if we don't know Moses as a "prophet" before we try to describe the 'Prophet' that should be like unto him.

Moses was born under very trying circumstances in which the lives of male Hebrew children were threatened by a king - Pharaoh of Egypt (Exo. 1:15-16, 22). Protected miraculously from this threat, he grew up in Egypt and sensed the calling of God to be Israel's deliverer from Egyptian bondage (Exo. 2:1-11a; Acts 7:21-23). Rejected by his fellow Hebrews, he fled for his life and went into exile in Midian, where he met and married his wife Zipporah (Exo. 2:13-21); only returning from exile after the men who sought his life had died (ch. 4:19).

Moses received his divine call as a prophet and deliverer in an encounter in mount Horeb (Exo. 3:1-10). Accompanied by his brother Aaron as his spokesman (Exo. 4:14 & 16), he went with a divine commission to encounter the incumbent and feared Pharaoh in order to bring Israel out of Egyptian bondage (ch. 5:1).

We should notice also the confirmation of his divine commission as a prophet - by powerful, miraculous signs and wonders (Ex. 3:20; 4:4, 21ff); by the power of his prophetic utterance (Exo. 4:12); by his ability to stand as mediator and intercessor on Israel's behalf (Exo. 19:17-19; Deut. 5:5); and by the glory reflected on his face (Ex. 34:29-30). As we identify the Prophet of Duet. 18, we shall have cause to see more about Moses' profile as a prophet. However, what distinguishes him from other prophets after him is Deut. 34:10-12 >> "And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel."

Why do the criteria of marriage, occupation, etc. not suffcicient basis for identifying the Prophet of Deut. 18:15 & 18? For the simple reason that these were not the features mentioned in those texts; rather, He would be recognized as one who stood as a 'Prophet'. If marriage, occupation, etc. could be used as a criteria at all, then many prophets would be far more qualified than Moses. An example is the Jewish prophet Samuel - (1 Sam. 8:1-2 and 1 Chron. 6:28) who also had married and had the same number of kids as did Moses. And even non-Jewish, non-Christian and non-Islamic "prophets" who married and sired children would be able to claim that they were the expected "Prophet" instead of Muhammad or Jesus.

It is of no consequence to measure divine calling by marriage ties, occupation, etc., because the context of Deut. 18 points out that the expected One was to be a "Prophet". God didn't say that He would raise them a "family man (or a famer) like unto Moses" - and people should grow up and drop such unwitty insinuations. What sets a man apart as a 'Prophet' is his prophetic calling by God; rather than some marriage ties or occupation.


2. The Kinship of the Prophet.

We have seen earlier that Moses was an Hebrew (Ex. 2:6); hence also an Israelite. That the prophecy of Deut. 18 speaks of the Prophet 'like unto' Moses, it is important to note well that He was to emerge as an Israelite (a Jew/Hebrew); for He was to arise from within the nation of Israel ("from the midst of thee, of thy brethren" - vs. 15). They were not to look for Him from any other nation than from within their own. No Arab was appointed or annointed as either prophet, priest, or king over Israel. Every Jew understood this, so that even in the NT, twice it was reiterated that Moses' prophecy meant that the Prophet was to emerge from among the Jews (Acts 3:22-23 & 7:37).

The case has been established that the phrase "from the midst of thee, of thy brethren" points only to people within the Jewish nation, especially when one reads its context in such texts as Deut. 17:15 - 'Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.'

It is of utmost importance to substantiate my persuasion that no stranger was to be set over Israel as prophet, priest, or king by divine afflatus. Certainly, the Jews were to love and respect the strangers who dwelt among them (Exo. 22:21; Lev. 19:34 & Deut. 10:19); but such were not to assume the prophetic or priestly offices. Let's bear this out in a few citations.

Jer. 30:21 - "And their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them; and I will cause him to draw near, and he shall approach unto me: for who is this that engaged his heart to approach unto me? saith the LORD."

That is one precise text that clearly elucidates the point of God raising only Jews as priests, prophets and kings to the Jews. In the case of the Gentile prophet Balaam, he was called a soothsayer (Josh. 13:22) and had his devotion in the 'high places of Baal' (Num. 22:41) - which is antithetical to true devotion to God (Num. 33:52).

How were strangers defined?

One of the half-brothers of Isaac was Midian (Gen. 25:1-2), from whom descended the Midianites. If Moses had counted himself as a relative in context of being one of the Midianite brethren, then he would have acknowledged it during his exile. Rather, when in the land of Midian and had his first son, he named him Gershom, "for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land" (Exo. 2:22). Nehemiah 13: 30 also makes the case for this, that no strangers who are non-Jews were appointed in the priestly or prophetic offices: "Thus cleansed I them from all strangers, and appointed the wards of the priests and the Levites, every one in his business."

In other words, strangers are those who are non-Jewish by birth or lineage. There is a distinction made between the house of Israel and the strangers that sojourned among them (Lev. 17:8 & 18:26).

Now all these go to show that Moses in Deut. 18 clearly meant the Jews by the clause "a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren". He never meant the Arabs; for by extension, that would have created a context for all the sons of Keturah as well (Gen. 25:2), which is not implied in the texts under review. Scripture is clear - "thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.'
" (Deut. 17:15).


3. The Prophetic Message of the Prophet

When a true prophet spoke in the Name of the LORD, the recipients knew they were hearing the very Word of God as though the prophet were only a mouthpiece articulating the voice of the LORD. This goes far beyond a mere recitation of verses (as is claimed for Muhammad with regards to the Qur'an). Biblical prophets were known to deliver prophetic messages with such distinctives as 'Thus saith the LORD' or 'The Word of the LORD that came unto. . .', etc. Such divine afflatus were communicated either in dreams, visions, or openly to the prophet (Num. 12:6); who then delivered the message to the people.

However, what sets Moses apart as a distinct prophet from others are the following words:

'And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle' - Exo. 33:11.

'My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?' - Num. 12:7-8.

Two things immediately come to our notice here: (a) God spoke directly to Moses - 'face to face' and 'mouth to mouth'; and (b) Moses saw the similitude of the LORD. These are two very important criteria that should not be missed about Moses as a distinct prophet; so that we understand that the same criteria are required of the Prophet who should be like unto Moses.

The prophetic word of Moses are marked out by the following -
(i) its potency and efficacy - not only was Moses' prophetic word fulfilled; but also they bore such power as to both deliver God's people and defeat the enemy. Further, the covenant blessings were as sure as their retribution, such that even after Moses was long dead, his prophetic statements continued to be effective in the lives of the Jews;
(ii) its durability and coherence - the prophetic Word given through Moses outlived his generation and was often quoted in the NT on many issues, particularly love and devotion to God.


Having laid out the preceding features of the distinctives of Moses, I'd like to recap and highlight the main issues before delineating the similarities between Moses and Jesus.


Highlights

In order to clearly identify the Prophet in the prophecy of Deut. 18, one has to look at three important areas: (a) His profile; (b) His kinship; (c) His prophetic message. These features would have to be maintained in view of the distinctive experiences that Moses as a prophet had with God - especially as relates to God speaking with him 'face to face'.

Second, we should understand that no Arab or non-Jew was raised as a prophet unto Israel; which is as much a great signal that the Sinaitic covenants were established unto the Jews, and through them salvation would come to the ends of the earth.

We should also remember that other issues like marriage and occupation do not weigh as criteria for the contrasts/comparison; as those are common to many prophets, rather than perculiar to them.

With the foregoing in mind, we shall be examining the similarities as well the contrasts between the prophets; and then lay the basis as to why Muhammad is not the Prophet in Deuteronomy 18.

for babz and all non-cristians,

please stop criticizing christianity. because it only shows how weak and insecure you are in your religion now that you speak false things toward others, is that the things that your religion teach? hatred (muslim hate jews so much and criticize cristianity). do you think allah will be happy that you make this things? did he command that you "HATE"? (too much muslim hates other religion so much that they make fear to cristian nation by bombing and other extreme things that they think allah will be happy) if you are not these then show the world, hug a jew, fight with them side by side destroying terror or follow the cristians bible "love your enemy as you loved your self" not like the one you born with, hate the jews and farsake non-believers. dont deny that almost 85 percent of the terrorism in the world are made by muslim extremist. also this extremist are not terrorist in the eyes of a muslim but a hero partaking a holy war, holy war for what? killing the innocent? is this makes allah happy? pardon me, did muhammad command this things? HATE & KILL I guess not,
so please be at peace open your mind. the world is not for you alone (muslim), GOD/allah created this world diverse with life, ideas culture and accept that it is diverse on religion too.

after all as you say allah created all things, that included obviously he created the cristians, buddist and the jews we are all brothers. and for Him we are all equal no matter you says that your rightious coz you muslim and the others are damned, you have no right to judge your brother except HIM the creator, I hope you will not be angry, I hope you understand my brother.


“A closed mind is like a closed book: just a block of wood.”
-proverb

Babs- jazakhaLLAHu khathiran

people who have problem with bible are does that can either write or read English but can not understand it