For those confused about if and why God would allow his creation to suffer forever in hell, can either watch this program by clicking on this link

http://www.amazingfacts.org/resources/video/NRVideo/NR11.asx

or read about it here

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Book.asp?x=80&y=9&SelLang=en&ID=51

This makes a lot of sense to me because i cannot equate the God who calls himself love, and by the way whom I serve, to a sadistic God that will allow his creation to suffer forever. The Bible says ye shall know the truth and the truth will set you free.

@ poster

Have you heard the Clause Love to Hate

Hell's Current temperature is one ZILLION BILION QUADRILLION LIGHT YEARS KELVIN DEGREES HOT

PLEASE ESCAPE ROUTE IS JESUS.

Hi everyone,

Could we please have a discussion about this. I'm very much interested in hearing peoples scripture based views.

God bless

TV01:

Hi everyone,

Could we please have a discussion about this. I'm very much interested in hearing peoples scripture based views.

God bless

My Guy, i am really skeptical about having a discussion with the zealots here who rather than accept clear truths try to say that somebody is advocating the teachings of a cult , just like they did in the politics thread


Well for one thing if any body gives infinite punishment and toture to somebody for wrong he person did in a short life, such a person or god deserves no respect.

The doctrine of eternal torment has no basis from the bible.

Any beign that proposes such a plan is worse than humans. Even the most evil father will not do that to his children not to imagine a Heavenly Father.

I know that by saying the truth ie that nothing like a fiery Hell exists i am setting off a storm but the truth remains what it is.

@TV01, have i unwittingly helped to get ur request fufiled

THE SAME GOD WAS THERE WHEN 6 MILLION PEOPLE WAS KILLED THIS GOD IS STILL THERE WHEN HIS SON WAS BEATEN AND HUMILIATED BY MORTAL MEN.

PLEASE ESCAPE THE JUDGMENT OF GOD AND ENTER INTO THE LOVE OF GOD BY JESUS CHRIST. HELL IS REAL READ THE BIBLE.

EVEN JESUS HIMSELF SAID IT THERE WILL BE WEEPING WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.

LOOK AS IF THE FIRE WILL BE RED BLACK HOT FIRE.

THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

sage:

My Guy, i am really skeptical about having a discussion with the zealots here who rather than accept clear truths try to say that somebody is advocating the teachings of a cult , just like they did in the politics thread

Hi Sage, You ran off and left me to fight the "Christians in Politics" battle by myself. I don't know if you saw, but Analytical , TayoD et al used style to scupper the debate, called it a draw, then ran off

sage:

I know that by saying the truth ie that nothing like a fiery Hell exists i am setting off a storm but the truth remains what it is.

I agree with you on this one. Will you fight the good fight if the storm rages?

Backslider:

THIS IS THE SECOND DEATH.

If hell is eternal burning, then surely it can't be death?

Contenders ready!!!!!!!

@Topic,

Hell-fire is not a twisted truth.

There are a few key concepts that stand out in discussions of this nature:

            (a) eternal punishment

            (b) second death

            (c) Hell

            (d) lake of fire

The Bible actually teaches that there is a literal place of eternal punishment for the wicked dead; and this is described in various appellations throughout Scripture.

Will God Punish the Wicked?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt. 10:28)

How Long Will This Punishment Last?

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43).

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever" (Rev. 20:10).

What Is The Second Death?

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev. 21:

Hell-fire is true, but is it the fire that burns without quenching, or those in it?

syrup:

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matt. 10:28)

He destroys both body & soul (of the wicked) ~ Can they be at once destroyed and burning?

Indeed, God will punish the wicked, but how?

syrup:

"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." (Mark 9:43).

Eternal life, absolutely, for the righteous. So, for the wicked Eternal death or Eternal punishment?

What does anyone think? What sayeth the Scriptures?

God bless

@TV01

Analytical, Tayo D and the others had no defense especially when i gave them many scriptures to show that human govts were in for destruction and that jesus and the early christians avoided politics. They blindly argued and then finally had to derail the discussion and create a picture like every body now agreed that true christianity and politics mix . Waz kind of interesting. If the example of Jesus and the early christians do not convince them, i wasnt going to bother myself.

To the topic though.
Nothing like a firey hell or hell fire exists. This is one of the many ridiculous teachings the church has imported.

The bible clearly shows that the dead have no feelings or thoughts whatsoever and that the reward for the wicked is death plain and simple. The soul dies and no such thing as eternal torment.

The eternal torment doctrine goes against Christianity coz it ridicules the basis of the Christian Faith---- The Resurection hope and it belies the claim of a loving heavenly father.

The disagreeing brigade would soon land to castigate me but the truth remains what it is

And you guys should not get me wrong, there is hell, but no such thing as eternal torment

Right. I was waiting for the moment when you gentlemen would start falling on each other!

#1. sage

sage:

nothing like a fiery Hell exists

#2. TV01

TV01:

I agree with you on this one.

. . . views now in contrast:

#1. TV01

TV01:

Hell-fire is true,

#2A. sage

sage:

Nothing like a firey hell or hell fire exists.

. . .and #2B. sage

sage:

And you guys should not get me wrong, there is hell

Synthesis:

sage: "Nothing like hell exists!"

TV01: "I agree."

. . .then:

TV01: "Hell is true!"

sage: "Em. . . nothing like hell exists!"

sage: "Don't get me wrong. There IS hell!"

LMAO!!

@ syrup:

true talk, sista. Really funny. I was about to point out the same contradiction.

syrup:

Right. I was waiting for the moment when you gentlemen would start falling on each other!

Synthesis:

sage: "Nothing like hell exists!"

TV01: "I agree."

. . .then:

TV01: "Hell is true!"

sage: "Em. . . nothing like hell exists!"

sage: "Don't get me wrong. There IS hell!"

Thanks for pointing that out Syrup.

I should clarify that the existence of hell-fire is not my dispute, but that the wicked will spend eternity tormented in it. I believe Sage meant the same thing (and that's what I was agreeing with). Apologies if that was not abundantly clear from my previous posts.

So if there are no more questions on that point, could we proceed to discuss. I'd appreciate if someone could respond to my questions in post #7.

Regards

God bless

TV01:

Thanks for pointing that out Syrup.

Well, it is human to be misread - and I've made a few as well. Look forward to your inputs.

Interesting topic.

From what I understand hell is indeed a real event, but in truth it cannot be eternal, and here is why I say that. The bible says the "wages of sin is death, " The death of which it speaks is not only the natural death that we experience in this life, bu tit speaks of the second death.

Now, if the wicked will be in hell burning without end, then how can that be death? It is the opposite. The fact that people are feeling pain then it means their senses are still functioning. While I agree that some degree of punishment will take place, I cannot see a loving God allowing the wicked to burn indefinitely.

The fact that the fire is real means the event is real. Hell is not an imaginary or spiritual experience as some would have us believe and to which they attribute the experience. God has promised that He will make a new heaven and earth.

For all those advocates of eternal burning where will hell be when God re-creates the new earth? Where will the wicked be when God's righhteous people once again inhabit the earth made new? Where will Satan and his angels be? Will God allow Satan's presence to continue?

Listen to what the bible says about hell as it relates to the punishment of the wicked.

Malachi 4:1
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be." "The enemies of the Lord , shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalms 37:10, 20.

Plain and simple isn't it? The punishment ends up in death. Death is the final stage of the punishment in which the wicked will be finally banished from the presence of the Lord. The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalms 37:20), will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "shall be destroyed together" (Psalms 37:38), will "consume away" (Psalms 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalms 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalms 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalms 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalms 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.

Hellfire will be just as big as this earth because it will be the earth on fire. This fire will be so hot as to melt the earth and burn up all "the works that are therein." The atmospheric heavens will explode and "pass away with a great noise."


Will the fire eventually go out? "Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:1, 4.


Is God a Torturer? If God tortured His enemies in a fiery horror chamber throughout eternity, He would be more vicious and heartless than men have ever been in the worst of war atrocities. An eternal hell of torment would be hell for God also, who loves even the vilest sinner.

What will be left when the fire goes out? The fires will burn until only ashes are left. Even the bones will be completely gone. "For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1, 3.




An eternal hell of torment would perpetuate sin and make its eradication impossible. An eternal hell of torment is not part of God's great plan at all. Such a horrible theory is slander against the holy name of a loving God. The devil delights to see our loving Creator pictured as such a monstrous tyrant, and he alone can benefit from such teachings.

@ sage

To the topic though.
Nothing like a firey hell or hell fire exists. This is one of the many ridiculous teachings the church has imported.

The bible clearly shows that the dead have no feelings or thoughts whatsoever and that the reward for the wicked is death plain and simple. The soul dies and no such thing as eternal torment.

The eternal torment doctrine goes against Christianity because it ridicules the basis of the Christian Faith---- The Resurection hope and it belies the claim of a loving heavenly father.

The disagreeing brigade would soon land to castigate me but the truth remains what it is

The disagreing brigade huh? That was funny! 

Nothing like a firey hell or hell fire exists

I am sure you didn't mean for it to come out this way, did you? Of course syrup with his spiritual eyes was ready to show both of you toppling over each other, without reading between the lines, just to win an argument.

Bobbyaf, You are realy a Bible student. Thank You very much for that exposition. You took the words right out of my mouth, so let me reserve my comment.

@ Oluchia

Bobbyaf, You are realy a Bible student. Thank You very much for that exposition. You took the words right out of my mouth, so let me reserve my comment

Praise God! I am still looking forward to your comments anyway.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

I am sure you didn't mean for it to come out this way, did you? Of course syrup with his spiritual eyes was ready to show both of you toppling over each other, without reading between the lines, just to win an argument.

Your spiritual eyes have really helped you confuse my gender - keep slobbering. If your lullaby is about winning an argument on the Forum, it is no wonder you sweat it up and still take such thorough beating.

Hi Syrup,

syrup:

@Bobbyaf,

Your spiritual eyes have really helped you confuse my gender - keep slobbering. If your lullaby is about winning an argument on the Forum, it is no wonder you sweat it up and still take such thorough beating.

Pray go easy on Bobbyaf 0! We all take a few licks, and sometimes Bobby is really under fire .

Bobbyaf:

I am sure you didn't mean for it to come out this way, did you? Of course syrup with his spiritual eyes was ready to show both of you toppling over each other, without reading between the lines, just to win an argument.

Bobbyaf, open your physical eyes now. For how long and how many times on how many threads have you engaged Sister Syrup on this forum? We don't want anyone to think you are punch drunk do we !

After me, Syrup na lady 0! (echo)

syrup:

The Bible actually teaches that there is a literal place of eternal punishment for the wicked dead; and this is described in various appellations throughout Scripture.

So Syrup my sister, do you still hold to this?

God bless

Hi @TV01,

TV01:

Hi Syrup,

Pray go easy on Bobbyaf 0! We all take a few licks, and sometimes Bobby is really under fire .

As long as he behaves himself when discussing issues with people, he will find me a pleasant discussant on any thread. Besides, I don't pretend knowledge that I don't have, and that is why I hinted earlier that we are all susceptible to a few slips here and there: see -

syrup:

Well, it is human to be misread - and I've made a few as well. Look forward to your inputs.

TV01:

syrup link=topic=42512.msg924064#msg924064 date=1172661234:

The Bible actually teaches that there is a literal place of eternal punishment for the wicked dead; and this is described in various appellations throughout Scripture.

So Syrup my sister, do you still hold to this?

I haven't changed my views on that as long as Rev. 20:10 remains unchanged: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Many blessings.

Hi Syrup,

syrup:

I haven't changed my views on that as long as Rev. 20:10 remains unchanged: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Okay. It could be read as meaning the three only. The devil, the beast and the false prophet.

I'd really appreciate if you could buttress the concept of eternal torment for all the wicked with other scriptural references (if indeed you feel this is the case).

I also note verse 14 which reads; "and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"

This would suggest that death, hell and the lake of fire are all seperate? Could anyone give an in-depth explanation here?

Bobbyaf, please don't dissapear (as if ), I'd appreciate some added depth to this.

God bless all.

@TV01,

TV01:

Okay. It could be read as meaning the three only. The devil, the beast and the false prophet.

I'm not so sure that it could be read as meaning only the three (the devil, the beast and the false prophet). And here's why:

Verse 15 ~ "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

TV01:

I'd really appreciate if you could buttress the concept of eternal torment for all the wicked with other scriptural references (if indeed you feel this is the case).

I'll try and come back with more; but for the moment I'd say that Rev. 20:15 as above would be convincing enough.

TV01:

I also note verse 14 which reads; "and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"

This would suggest that death, hell and the lake of fire are all seperate? Could anyone give an in-depth explanation here?

True, and the reasons for this would follow in subsequent posts. For now I would offer briefly that the Lord Jesus used 'hell' (as appears in our English Bibles) as an umbrella term for the eternal abode for the wicked dead.

Hi TVOI

Hi Syrup,

Quote from: syrup on Today at 10:54:10 AM
I haven't changed my views on that as long as Rev. 20:10 remains unchanged: "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Okay. It could be read as meaning the three only. The devil, the beast and the false prophet.

The expression forever and ever doesn't mean as Syrup thinks, an indefinite period. The expression means from one period to another, from one age to the next. As a matter of fact the expression has been used in other sections of scripture to refer to the living doing something, yet those people are dead and gone. Let me give you an example:

Psalm 145:1, I will extol You, my God, O King; And I will bless Your name forever and ever.

Here we see David's proclamation of doing something forever and ever, and that was extoling God's name. David is dead and gone and hence his being able to bless God has also ceased with his death. A dead person cannot bless or extol God.

Another example of the use of forever is found in:

Exudus 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

So here we see what forever means in those contexts. In those contexts the act of doing something was limited to one's lifetime. Likewise the devil, the beast and the false prophet do not necessarily burn in hell indefinitely, but they do so as long as their level of punishment allows. Some of the wicked no doubt will be punished over a longer time period than others, and might I add that Satan will be punished the longest, being the instigator of evil Himself.

Allow me to give you just one more example of the use of a word that we have attached a definite meaning to, but which is used in a different context in this verse:

Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

My question is, does the fire that burnt Sodom still burning today, even though the bible referred to it as eternal? Certainly not! Hence the expression for ever and ever, must be seen in its context, and apart fom that, it must be seen and understood in the light of the weight of evidence of other texts that do not support an everlasting and indefinite burning or punishment of the wicked.

I also note verse 14 which reads; "and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death"

This would suggest that death, hell and the lake of fire are all seperate? Could anyone give an in-depth explanation here?

As you are aware the word hell has multiple meanings. The word used for hell in this verse is hades which means the grave. So in actual fact John is simply using the expression to mean that there will be no more death and the holding of the dead in a grave after hell comes to its natural end. The fiery puishment will totally anhilate Satan and the wicked after which there will be no more death.

The issue rests with how persons see the expression everlasting punishment as used by Jesus Himself in Matthew 28:46, And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

In the context of what other texts are saying we must and should interpret Jesus's words properly and not just loosely use a word because we think it means something. Context must override in every situation. Another important approach to scriptures is applying consistency of interpretation. In other words if 10 bible passages indicate the reality of something, and one comes accross a text or two that seem to be contradictory, then the weight of evidence must take precedence when it comes to making a judgement on doctrinal matters.

My understanding of everlasting punishment is the knowledge of the fact by the wicked that they will be totally removed from the presence of the Lord for good. The punishment meted out to the wicked was not meant to confine itself to a mere physical one. It can't be that the wicked will be alive and suffering indefinitely, because that would mean that they are still in the presence of God, if we stop to think that God's presence is everywhere. Recall what David said about God being in hell with him if he were to go there.

Bobbyaf, please don't dissapear (as if ), I'd appreciate some added depth to this.

God bless you too

Hell is real. A terrible and dreadful place. But according to the bible, not all of hell burns with fire for satan and his demons reside there. They are not yet in torment for their time of punishment hasn't yet come. According to the bible, in the end, all of hell will be emptied into the lake of fire. This is a more terrible place of torment than hell. Satan, his angels and all who reject Christ will end up there. They will be tormented day and night. YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN!

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:

The expression forever and ever doesn't mean as Syrup thinks, an indefinite period. The expression means from one period to another, from one age to the next. As a matter of fact the expression has been used in other sections of scripture to refer to the living doing something, yet those people are dead and gone.

As regards the expression "for ever and ever", please consider these other scripture verses where they appear:

#1. He who lives for ever and ever ~~
"And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." (Rev. 5:14); "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev. 10:6)

#2. God, who lives for ever and ever ~~
"And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever." (Rev. 15:7)

#3. "The LORD shall reign for ever and ever." (Exo. 15:18)

#4. "Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever." (1 Chron. 29:10)

#5. "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre." (Psa. 45:6)

#6. "I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever." (Psa. 45:17)

#7. "Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his" (Dan. 2:20)

#8. "But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." (Dan. 7:18)

Since you are convinced that "The expression forever and ever doesn't mean as Syrup thinks, an indefinite period", then I guess that these scriptures do not not at all mean what they say. In your own view, if the expression doesn't mean what it does, then perhaps, just perhaps, your theology denies that "God lives for ever and ever" and "He shall reign for ever and ever".

At the moment, I just want to point out the meaning of the expression "for ever and ever" within the context of the verses where they appear. What it does mean as applied in Rev. 20:10 is apparent in its context there - they "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Hi @kmcutez,

kmcutez:

This makes a lot of sense to me because i cannot equate the God who calls himself love, and by the way whom I serve, to a sadistic God that will allow his creation to suffer forever.

[center]==Revelation 20:10==
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.[/center]

[center]==Romans 11:22==
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.[/center]

Wow good work here Syrup!

Guess TV01 and Sage need a lil syrup into their spiritual life!

As to the topic, If hell does not exist, and there is no hell fire, there is no point for Jesus Christ to come into the world to die for mankind

So hell does exist as well hell fire too. If you need scripture for that, I will humbly suply it.

Hi @mrpataki,

Thanks.

I do appreciate every other post on this crucial subject, including yours and 4get_me's. I trust TV01 has helped to bring the discussion a bit up-to-date with his questions as well.

mrpataki:

As to the topic, If hell does not exist, and there is no hell fire, there is no point for Jesus Christ to come into the world to die for mankind

I was going to expand a lil bit on that as well. Perhaps, the argument is not so much a denial as to the existence and reality of hell (seems most discussants agree there is a hell afterall). However, the core issue seems more about what is meant by hell and eternal punishment.

If hell was just a matter of insignificant theology, why would God have allowed His Son to suffer such aweful judgement on the Cross on our behalf?

@ Syrup,

Thanks for the reply.

However the question here initially was: Hell-fire A Twisted Truth Untangled.

syrup:

Hi @mrpataki,

I was going to expand a lil bit on that as well. Perhaps, the argument is not so much a denial as to the existence and reality of hell (seems most discussants agree there is a hell afterall). However, the core issue seems more about what is meant by hell and eternal punishment.

If hell was just a matter of insignificant theology, why would God have allowed His Son to suffer such aweful judgement on the Cross on our behalf?

Hell and eternal punishment poser came on later, which I feel can best be answered when we truly define the meaning of Salvation as well the death of Jesus on the cross. Only then can eternal punishment and hell can be fully understood.

Thanks a lot once again and God Bless you. You have truly inspired me with your articulate posts on several topics here.

@mrpataki,

mrpataki:

Thanks a lot once again and God Bless you. You have truly inspired me with your articulate posts on several topics here.

I should rather be thankful that yours have equally challenged and inspired me. One such example is the way you addressed this issue in the following lines:

mrpataki:

However the question here initially was: Hell-fire A Twisted Truth Untangled.

Hell and eternal punishment poser came on later, which I feel can best be answered when we truly define the meaning of Salvation as well the death of Jesus on the cross. Only then can eternal punishment and hell can be fully understood.

I quite agree with you on that and can't improve on your cogent summation. Just to add that issues like this will be all-inclusive in every aspect as the discussion progresses. Perhaps, one other way of looking at it would be: what if Jesus never went to the Cross for our redemption?

Blessings again, and any input would be most appreciated.

@ Syrup

As regards the expression "for ever and ever", please consider these other scripture verses where they appear:

#1. He who lives for ever and ever ~~
"And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever." (Rev. 5:14); "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev. 10:6)

#2. God, who lives for ever and ever ~~
"And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever." (Rev. 15:7)

#3. "The LORD shall reign for ever and ever." (Exo. 15:18)

#4. "Wherefore David blessed the LORD before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed be thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever." (1 Chron. 29:10)

#5. "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre." (Psa. 45:6)

#6. "I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever." (Psa. 45:17)

#7. "Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his" (Dan. 2:20)

#8. "But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever." (Dan. 7:18)

Since you are convinced that "The expression forever and ever doesn't mean as Syrup thinks, an indefinite period", then I guess that these scriptures do not not at all mean what they say. In your own view, if the expression doesn't mean what it does, then perhaps, just perhaps, your theology denies that "God lives for ever and ever" and "He shall reign for ever and ever".

At the moment, I just want to point out the meaning of the expression "for ever and ever" within the context of the verses where they appear. What it does mean as applied in Rev. 20:10 is apparent in its context there - they "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Point taken and I suspected you'd have raised those texts to strengthen your argument. Its obvious that context will determine the meaning of the expression "forever and ever" as its used in each case. Bear in mind that the expression is used as a qualifier for the object being described. In God's case the expression would naturally mean without end since one of God's attributes is immortality, but in the case of it being used to describe an activity by humans which turns out to be limited then its other meaning comes to light.

Revelation 20 is especially interesting. The wicked are said to be tormented day and night for ever and ever, yet twice in the same chapter, the wicked are said to experience the second death. John could not have been so inconsistent as to mix this issue up in the very same chapter! There is no returning from the second death. Jesus Himself says we should fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell, when the wicked are destroyed!

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." If the wicked are destroyed, both soul and body, in the lake of fire as Jesus says, then how can they be tormented for ever and ever?.

You will see, over and over again, that all the rest of the Bible says: The wicked will be completely destroyed. They will perish. They will be burned up until they will be ashes under the soles of your feet. They will be no more. They will cease to exist, etc.

So, why does Revelation say the wicked will be tormented for ever and ever when all the rest of the Bible says the wicked will be completely destroyed and cease to exist? Does Scripture disagree with itself? No it does not have to disagree with itself. The answer lies in our understanding of the word "forever".

In general the Greek word aion is translated: forever. However its real meaning is "Age". There are actually two meanings for the word "Age" and it must be seen in each of its context.

"Age" can mean a human lifetime, or life itself. So it can be a limited time, as long as someone is going to live. "Age" can also mean an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, or an eternity. So it can mean forever and ever. Basically, if the subject is God or Jesus, since they exist in eternity, the meaning of "Age" would be an unbroken age, or an eternity. On the other hand, if the subject is referring to finite human beings, then the meaning of "Age" would be limited to the life-span of a human lifetime.