why is shahan not back to reply?

i was waiting to see shahan reply to tv01. while i awiat her reply and enjoy this enlightening thread, i have a little question to throw out there. the bible says that there is going to be a ressurection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and they would be judged according to their deeds. if then you have recieved your judgement and sent to hell fire, would you be ressurected back, then judged, then sent back to hell? why would there be judgement for those who have recieved the judgment of eternal torment again?

looking forwad to hear shahan's reply!

@damosky,

the bible says that there is going to be a ressurection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and they would be judged according to their deeds. if then you have recieved your judgement and sent to hell fire, would you be ressurected back, then judged, then sent back to hell? why would there be judgement for those who have recieved the judgment of eternal torment again?

One thing that I think we should put into consideration is the fact that there is no time as it were in eternity. Eternity is in an ever present state of "now".  If you get into heaven today and ask the saints how long they have been there, the answer you'll get is "today". I hope you catch my drift.

That being said, the folks in Hell will also come to the white throne judgment where all unbelievers will appear before the Father. Believers will receive their rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

So in other words, no one has yet received their full reward until after the judgements.  Hell, like I said previously is like a detention center like Alagbon where an accused is being held before being thrown into kirikiri (the lake of Fire).  See 2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;.  This scripture is very clear that while these angels are still held in Tatarus (Hell), it is only temporary till they receive their due rewards after the judgement.

@damosky,

damosky:

why is shahan not back to reply?

Okay, here is shahan! I had to take a break to attend an evening Bible Study, and my replies will follow consequently. However, I'll quickly attend to yours:

damosky:

i was waiting to see shahan reply to tv01. while i awiat her reply and enjoy this enlightening thread, i have a little question to throw out there. the bible says that there is going to be a ressurection of both the righteous and the unrighteous and they would be judged according to their deeds. if then you have recieved your judgement and sent to hell fire, would you be ressurected back, then judged, then sent back to hell? why would there be judgement for those who have recieved the judgment of eternal torment again?

I don't see how your concern is borne out of my inputs; for I nowhere hinted at a repeated or recurring judgement in any one of my posts.

damosky:

looking forwad to hear shahan's reply!

As given briefly. Others will follow soon - but can't miss my 'fresh fish peppersoup' first!

@TV01,

Perhaps you have issues with people and that's why I've noticed your heated responses lately, which is not amusing. That said, we can just do this simply and progress the discussion, or lead it whichever way you please.

TV01:

1. Let the discussion rest on it's merits. I don't believe anyone is taking a position just for the sake of arguement.

Whatever you meant by that still does not take away from my observation. Even you would have to admit that your inputs actually indicate your own position in your arguements.

TV01:

2. We all have different ways of articulating, it is not hard to see what Sage means. If you are not sure, please ask!

How many times have I asked - or do you deliberately choose to miss them? What does sage mean that is any different from what I pointed out?

TV01:

3. Can we keep this to the scriptural merits or otherwise of the points raised and not venture into the ad-hominem.

And were my rejoinders anywise different from your hint in your statement above; or where have I deviated from the "scriptural merits" of points raised? The ad-hominem you saw in mine that is vacant in others didn't reach your expectations, did it?

TV01:

It's not your place to perjoratively label maturity, understanding or leading that differs from yours, even if you are 100% correct. Like I said

Sorry, neither is it yours to do so - even though you have done so severally. I don't see you vaunting this self-importance in the views of others who take your lead - but when it comes to those you disagree with, then your fingers are quick to the keyboard.

TV01:

Who said anyone has a problem with it? I don't deny or overlook it's presence. There is a dissonance between my reading of scripture up until this verse. It would be dishonest to re-interprete or ignore my whole reading up till this point on the basis of the one verse/section of scripture.

I haven't particularly referred to you in that regard; and if you feel touched enough to take center stage, then my points still stand - like I said. I don't know that many number of people who read Scripture with a "dissonance".

TV01:

My initial default position after becoming a Christian (and even as an unbeliever) was eternal torment. I had no questions about it as such. But after scrutinising related scriptures and doctrines ("immortality of the soul", destruction, death, eternal life etc), I have cause to question it.

Granted - we all have adjustments in our views when we learn new things. Mine are borne out of a study on the subject and the fact that there are more questions unanswered in the 'annihilationist' persuasion.

TV01:

What exactly do you understand and how? And why do you assume my position is driven by feeling? There is an almost overwhelming weight of scripture that suggests eternal destruction for the wicked. Especially when one properly aligns, death, eternal life, immortality and other doctrines that tie closely into this.

I don't remember having denied that the Bible speaks of 'everlasting destruction' - and you could scroll just above in the previous page and see where I outlined them, which I repeat here:

shahan:

I believe the Bible mentions such concepts as 'everlasting destruction' (II Thes. 1:9), 'everlasting judgment' (Heb. 6:2), 'eternal damnation' (Mark 3:29); and 'everlasting punishment' (Matt. 25:46) - and in themselves they are not contradictory. This is not the case with sage's idea of "eternal annihilation" as annihilation is nowhere taught in Scripture.

What we have been attempting to examine from all sides is just what is conveyed in meaning by such terms rather than "an almost overwhelming weight of scripture that suggests eternal destruction", as you supposed. That was why I earlier asked about the meaning of such terms. Those who espouse annihilation, a cessation of life, etc. have yet to plainly articulate those concepts from Scripture.

For instance, I offered a question to sage to please provide a verse in Scripture where we might read that Jesus went to the place prepared for the devil and his angels (the LAKE of FIRE) - which is yet unanswered. Pushing his ideas of 'eternal annihilation' hasn't helped his persuasion at all as long as the Bible does not teach what he seeks to establish.

TV01:

We'd all appreciate if you outline your understanding of those verses.

I suppose you could get them from my posts. Making blank statements like yours is not exactly my tuff; and you're not obliged to offer any if you so prefer.

TV01:

Firstly, I don't see eternal torment necessarily implied in the scriptures quoted. That is your reading of it.

Granted - in just exactly the same way that "eternal destruction" is not implied in Scripture in your private reading.

TV01:

Matthew 25:Everlasting fire ~ Means just that, fire that cannot be quenched until it fully consumes. This is clearly outlined in 2 Peter 2:6 & Jude 7.

Sorry, the Lord did not once introduce an "UNTIL" in Matt. 25:41 & 46. This is a classic example of the 'force-fit' you once decried. If you prefer to gather its comparative meaning from other verses, then see Mark 9:43-44 where the Lord intimated that the fire shall NEVER be quenched! Where then is the correlation between your idea of "UNTIL" and the Lord's "NEVER"??

TV01:

Likewise Everlasting punishment is easily understood as an irrevocable judgment. The second death is final, from which there will be no ressurrection or further pardon, hence the judgment handed down is final, eternal.

Irrevocable and final - yes indeed. And how does that remove from the issue of the wicked being tormented "DAY and NIGHT" that extends to "FOR EVER and EVER"??

TV01:

Mark  9: As above.

Aye - and my response above.

TV01:

Luke 16: Even if one adopts a literal interpretation to this parable, there is nothing to suggest that the time spent by the wicked in hell is eternal. Is there anything, anywhere in scripture to suggest that Abrahams bosom is heaven?

Another force-fit. Has anyone suggested that Abraham's bosom is HEAVEN? And to your idea that "there is nothing to suggest that the time spent by the wicked in hell is eternal" - I wonder if that was another terse quip to deny the theory you espouse of the punishment of the wicked being ETERNAL. . . or, one is to understand that the wicked won't be in their place of judgement for so long, and we should scribble an "UNTIL" by the margin?

TV01:

The rich man arrayed in "purple" almost certainly represenas the rich law bound priestly elite, whilst lazarus represents the poor/gentiles who have Abrahams faith. It's a parable. Jesus was demonstrating to the stiff-necked, hard-headed, religious jews that the KOG was being opened up to the nations.

Hardly the case. 'Purple and fine linen' were expressive of wealth in Biblical language (see Esther 8:15 and Ezek 16:13); and both Jews and Gentiles (whether rich or poor) are among those who have Abraham's faith. One doesn't have to be poor or a Gentile in order to have the faith of Abraham; and the Lord's intended purpose in the parable was for all, rather than just to 'religious jews'.

TV01:

The notion that the grave has two distinct parts one for the wicked and one for the righteous is nowhere portrayed in the bible. It is from old Jewish lore. One that The Lord used to make a point.

TayoD's outline helps clear the air on the issue. However, I fail to see how the Lord Jesus would use an 'old Jewish lore' to establish a Biblical point where in fact the Spirit warns against that very tendency (Titus 1:14 & II Pet. 1:16).

TV01:

This does not butress your position. Personified or literal, they are both cast into the lake of fire to be consumed.

It only weakens your argument, for my response to your earlier question was precisely to the point.

TV01:

Suppose all you will, it changes nothing. If I was "unwilling to look" as you suggest, I would have stuck with all my default or recieved positions. Passages elsewhere clearly teach that death is just that. If there is no cessation of life, what need ressurection?

I find this come back really hilarious. A default or received position(s) in your case flagellates back and forth in your arguments; for those who "stand" before God to be judged are called "the dead" (Rev. 20:12), which in its context shows that they were quite aware of the judgement taking place. If the dead are "just that" - "dead" (as a matter of "cessation of life" - what point is to be made from the fact that they "STAND" before God to be judged?

TV01:

Shahan wrote;
The one question I would like to ask about this idea that Jude 7 points to finality of judgement: Will the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah escape the FINAL Judgement in Revelation 20:12-13?

My response;
Surely it can't be hard to see that the "example" that God made of S&G is exactly a type of what the 2nd death would be. Final, eternal, unchangeable, irrevocable.

Nevermind the political answer to circle round the question. Here again: "Will the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah escape the FINAL Judgement in Revelation 20:12-13?"

TV01:

Presumably you can read eternal torment into the "example" of S&G. I would appreciate your doing so, be it, literally or figuratively.

What does Revelation 20:10 say to you, TV01?

TV01:

In as much as you purported to be trying to help, thanks.

You're not obliged to sweat a vaunted rejoinder with sly undertones if you don't find mine useful. Cheers.

@Bobbyaf,

Bobbyaf:
In all honesty Shahan an exposition was given on what Revelation 20:10 really means in the light of how the early writers used their words, or how they expressed themselves idiomatically.

Many thanks for yours; but then the "exposition" on Revelation 20:10 comes out all the weighter in that expressed by syrup and others after her.

Bobbyaf:
It was already explained to the fora, and possibly you if you read it, that the phrase forever and ever is a faulty translation. No honest greek student including myself, could possibly walk away accepting that translation of forever and ever, when what was meant was "from ages unto the ages when we stop to consider that the original phrase existed in the plural.

As rendered in the KJV, the translation is accurate and not faulty. No honest student of the Greek language would imagine that the same term as applied to God Himself means "from ages unto the ages". If that were the case, what are such "honest" Greek students to understand by God "who lives from ages unto the ages"?

Even if one should be a little teasing with that nomenclature, it would only further weaken your arguement. This is what Rev. 20:10 would read if we pander to your arguement: ". . . and shall be tormented day and night from ages unto the ages" - which comes full circle to our own persuasion rather than yours.

That being so, what then would this expression convey to your understand - "tormented. . .from ages unto the ages"??

Bobbyaf:

The reality is the true expression as found in the greek as it pertains to the wicked points to periods of time, and not eternity. The strange thing is is that you will accept that phrase to be limited when it is used to describe the limited life of a slave as used by Moses, but you fail to see the context of Revelation 20:10 to be the same.

Should we take your own "true expression" as indicative of a limited time in the Revelation, then as syrup has pointed out you most likely would have the same problem with accepting its application in the case of God who lives "for ever and ever".

The stranger thing is that you earlier tried to force the expression to apply in all cases; but retraced your steps when offered a clear text that evidences the direct opposite of what you hold.

Bobbyaf:

As I have said so many times if a few passages seem to run contradictory to the weight of evidence of those scriptures that point to a literal and final destruction of the wicked, then why struggle with a few difficult passages just to prove a point?

There's no struggling with 'a few difficult passages' just to prove any point; and it is rather the case in the persuasion of the annihilationists who still struggle with Revelation 20:10.

Bobbyaf:
Please find those translations that give the proper rendition of the greek, and stop confining yourself to a traditional version that may have been faulty translated in some instances. You have to read between the lines.

I believe the "traditional version" of the KJV and others are precisely correct, after having compared various renderings in other versions. Some others like Darby which render it as "for the ages of ages" may be correct but weak. Reading that text "between the lines " does not take away from the gist of our persuasion as stipulated earlier.

Carry on Shahan,

@ Shahan

As rendered in the KJV, the translation is accurate and not faulty

You're dead wrong and as a matter of fact I challenge you to break it down for the fora if you can.

Deuteronomy 32:22 -For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

This is the first scripture that actually talks of Hell. Here God talks of the very deepest destruction a total extermination of the earth-to the product of the earth. Increase of man, and all their property will seized, foundations of their mountain will be razed to the ground.
This is further buttressed by Jesus in Matthew 24: 1 - 51.
Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Psalms 139:8 -If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

2Peter 2:4 -For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 20:14 -And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The first death consisted in the separation of the soul from the body for a season; the second death in the separation of body and soul from God for ever. The first death is that from which there may be a resurrection; the second death is that from which there can be no recovery. By the first the body is destroyed during time; by the second, body and soul are destroyed through eternity. This is where eternal destruction comes into action as seen from the scriptures.
Just my understanding of the scriptures as to hell.

mrpataki:

Just my understanding of the scriptures as to hell.[/b]

Hi Pataks, In line with the current debate what is your current thinking? Eternal destruction or eternal torment in the lake of fire?

Regards

God bless

Friends,

Where on earth have I been to have missed this interesting discussion going on here?  Pressure of work has kept me off from here for some time!  What a discussion!  I just went through all the posts from beginning to the end, and I must commend all of you for the depth of the discussions.  Let me catch my breath and go over them again, abeg!

@Syrup, you've just been added to my favourite list of gals on Nairaland [Shahan was the last addition!]  I doff my cap, sister!  The same way Shahan captivated me sometimes ago.  I'm taking notes. . .

@TayoD, you'll always be my pally on issues, well done!  You spoke my mind as usual!

@Bobbyaf, what a spirited and scholarly effort!  Though, I don't quite agree with you,  I appreciate your articulate inputs all the same.

@Sage, hmmmm!  What can I say now?  Check your post #8, I'm sure we can still be friends despite differences.  Bless you.

@TV01, how are you?  I see you've been busy here   Read all your inputs.  I like your stance (or lack of it!) on this thread so far- somewhat undecided. . .

@others, keep it up.

I'm surely keeping tabs on this discussion, hoping for less pressure to contribute.  Love you all.

Hi Analytical, as ever I would like to hear you expound you views on this thread.

Now that everyone’s here, could I humbly suggest that we’d all be better served by nailing this one point at a time. That will stop the discussion becoming muddled.

So first up if (I may).

Immortality of the soul ~ TayoD has stated that he believes this is a Christian notion. Indeed, it seems logical quite straightforward to suggest that if one subscribes to a doctrine of eternal torment, one must necessarily insist on this.

Previously, I posted the following 6 scriptures in reference to Immortality in the Bible.

Romans 2:7 - eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
1 Corinthians 15:53 - For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
1 Timothy 1:17 - Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 6:16 - who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
2 Timothy 1:10  - but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

There is nothing in these scriptures to suggest that immortality of the body/soul is something inherent to mankind, either from creation or otherwise.

Additional scripture which employs the same word translated immortality, but translate it differently, will not lead to a different conclusion.

For example,
Romans 1:23 - and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Here Paul, describing the idolatry of those who know not the living God, says that they “changed the glory of the incorruptible (immortal) God into an image made like to corruptible (mortal) man.”  It’s the same Greek word translated immortal” in 1 Timothy 1:17.

John 5:26 says that the “Father hath life in himself,” and that He hath “given to the Son to have life in Himself”.

I can find nothing in scripture on which to establish a doctrine of inherent human immortality, be it of body or soul.

If anyone can show otherwise, please do so.

God bless

TV01:

Hi Pataks, In line with the current debate what is your current thinking? Eternal destruction or eternal torment in the lake of fire?

Regards

God bless

@ TV01,
A. 2 Thessalonians 1: 7-9
7* And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8* In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9* Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction ([size=4pt]eternal destruction[/size]) from the presence of the Lord,and from the glory of his power.

Taking note of Vs 8 and 9, in flaming fire to take vengeanc, upon those who do not recieve the mercy of the Lord Jesus, I compare with another scripture;

B. Jude 1: 7
7* Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Again I find this interesting as it brings to light that, there is eternal destruction for those who refuse the Lordship of Jesus in their life.

Comparing these two scritures side by side, the Verse 8 of 2 Thessalonians 1 and Verse 7 of Jude 1, one thing comes paramount: suffering the vengeance of eternal fire and In flaming fire taking vengeance which is eternal destruction! as Verse 9 of 2 Thessalonians 1 makes us to see:

9* Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction ([size=4pt]eternal destruction[/size]) from the presence of the Lord,and from the glory of his power.


So how do we escape this eternal destruction which is a vengeance of eternal fire or flaming fire;

A. 1 John 2:25
25* And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

What is this promise?

B. Jude 1:21
21* Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

So it is eternal destruction.

@shahan and everyone else, the following states my view point o this thread.


Definition: The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohl′ and its Greek equivalent hai′des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge′en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

What sort of people go to the Bible hell?

Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?

Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?

Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl′ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai′des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge′en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai′des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai′des it uses that same translation for ge′en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai′des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge′en·na as “hell,” as it does hai′des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?

Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko′la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?

Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou′] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba′sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.

What is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?

Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression ge′en·nan tou py·ros′ as “hell fire” (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell” (NE), “fiery pit” (AT), and “fires of Gehenna” (NAB).

Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.

At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.”

What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?

Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”

After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality?

Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4: Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.

But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Still the same message satan is preaching to make us doubt God's word and his love for us.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Bobbyaf:

@ Shahan

You're dead wrong and as a matter of fact I challenge you to break it down for the fora if you can.

@Bobbyaf,

I would've loved to oblige you your challenge; but would rather let it rest for now on just one question:

If we have to pander to your persuasion otherwise of the phrase meaning "from ages unto the ages", then this is how Revelation 20:10 will read ~~ they "shall be tormented day and night[/color] [color=#990000]from ages unto the ages" Now, how long is the time period "from ages unto the ages" that the torment would last?

@damosky,

Many thanks for that outline articulating your position. It would be unnecessarily tedious to reply to every line posted, and I'm thankful that most of them have already been discussed.

However, it certainly reminds me of the very same material that has been severally recycled on the net, and typically flavours the JW interpretation. Sample:

Article reposted by Watchman on a Yahoo Answers blog. The poster opens his piece by saying: "Everyone goes to hell", and if we simply go by that statement, the problems in defining his position will be multiplied.

In another Forum called StarPulse blog, the same article was reposted by two users there - Britneysucks and Mudslinger.

But, first let me clip out a definition of "hell" as used in the article and see if it applies in every issue raised by the author:

damosky:

The Hebrew she’ohl′ and its Greek equivalent hai′des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind

Whatever the author wants us to understand by the "common grave", would it make sense when applied in the gist of his article? However, having sifted through the piece, there are a few slips which cannot be sustained in the Bible; although quite a few others make sense.

damosky:

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

I hope we all understand that the 'hell' (or 'Hades') in Acts 2:25-27 is NOT the same place as the LAKE of FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels (cf. Matt. 25:41 and Rev. 20:10)?? We are nowhere told that the devil went to the "common grave"; but Rev. 20:10 shows just where he and his rebel crew will be cast, which is a radically different place altogether. Later on, we shall see that the author acknowledges this distinction (see section marked ¬¦¦>); and we should not miss it.

damosky:

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. . . — The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236

It is interesting to note that a 'professor of Sacred Scripture' could deny the nature of the soul as taught in the Bible. If the concept of 'soul' as separate from the 'body' does NOT exist in Scripture, what then does the Bible mean by the following texts? --

Gen. 35:18
"And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin." It is clear here that the soul departed from her body, and thus was separate from the body.

I Kings 17:21-22
"And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." Same thing here - the soul which had been separated from the body returned into the body of the child.

Job 14:22
"But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn." Job here marks the distinction between the "soul within" and the "flesh upon" as two separate entities of man.

Gen. 3:19 & Eccl. 12:7
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. .||. .Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." The distinction is made between the body of man that returns to the ground (dust) from which it was made; and the spirit of man that returns to God as a separate entity "formed" within man (see Zech.2 12:1 - "formeth the spirit of man within him".

Acts 2:27
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" We all know that when Jesus died, His body was in the tomb/sepulchre (Matt. 27:60 & Mark 15:46), but it was rather His soul as separate from His body that went to 'hell' (or, 'Hades'). This is underscored in I Pet. 3:18-19 - ". . .he went and preached unto the spirits in prison." It was not with the body in the sepulcher that the Lord Jesus went to 'hell' (or 'Hades') to preach unto the spirits in prison; it was rather the soul as separate from the body.

In this last cited example, we can deduce evidently that the soul indeed survives the death of the body. Were that not possible or not the case at all, how then could it be said that Jesus "went and preached unto the spirits in prison"?

In the same connection, syrup had earlier offered Rev. 6:9-10 (add vs. 11) to show how souls survived the death of bodies of those slain for the Word of God and for their testimony: "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

It is beyond argument to suppose that the soul does not survive the death of the body; or that the soul as separate from the body does not exist in the Bible, as some professors of Sacred Scriptures would have us believe. On the contrary, the Bible distinctly teaches and affirms these concepts regardless the denials today.

Secondly, many people take Ezek. 18:4 to mean that the soul itself (as distinct from the body) "dies" - “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” What does this imply? It does not suggest that the incorporeal part of man called soul suffers 'death' - as I've attempted to demonstrate just above. Soul in that verse refers to the person himself, rather than to that which is in contrast to the body, as hinted at in the reference offered by the author - (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

It is the same sense of 'soul' as used for "the person" in the following: Gen 46:26 - "All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six" || Act 27:37 - "And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls || Rom 13:1 - "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers" || I Pet. 3:20 - "wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".

damosky:

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?

Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Job 14:13 does NOT teach that the upright will be cast into the LAKE of FIRE or the place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt. 25:41). The distinction is vital here, because we ought to understand that Job never prayed to go to, or be in, the same place where the wicked will be cast in the final judgement (Rev. 20:10 & 15).

@damosky,

damosky:

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)

Please notice that Eccl. 9 deals with the concerns and experiences of life under the sun (vs. 6 - "neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun". Indeed, 'the dead' are oblivious to whatever transpires under the sun: they know nothing of the issues of this present life once they have been severed by death - but that is not to suggest that they are unconscious or oblivious in the realities of the afterlife.

Infact, when you read the whole book, you'll find that the Preacher (by his constant mention of that which occurs "under the sun" in every chapter) deals mainly with issues of this life; and not so much with the afterlife or issues beyond the grave (except where he mentions it tersely at the end of the book in ch. 12:14). See:

chapter 1
1:3 - What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? || 1:9 - and there is no new thing under the sun. || 1:14 - I have seen all the works that are done under the sun. .

chapter 2
2:11 - all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun || 2:17 - Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me || 2:20 - Therefore I went about to cause my heart to despair of all the labour which I took under the sun.

chapter 3
3:16 - And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

chapter 4
4:1 - So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun || 4:3 - Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun || 4:7 - Then I returned, and I saw vanity under the sun || 4:15 - I considered all the living which walk under the under the sun, with the second child that shall stand up in his stead

chapter 5
5:13 - There is a sore evil which I have seen under the sun, namely, riches kept for the owners thereof to their hurt || 5:18 - Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labour that he taketh under the sun all the days of his life, which God giveth him: for it is his portion.

. . .and the remaining chapters:

chapter 6 - verses 1, 5 &12
chapter 7 - verse 11
chapter 8 - verses 9, 15 & 17
chapter 9 - verses 3, 6, 9, 11 & 13
chapter 10 - verse 5
chapter 11 - verse 7
chapter 12 - verse 2

The fact that the Preacher limits his treatise to issues of this life is underscored in chapter 6:12 - "for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?" He deals mainly with issues of the present existence, as in his reference to "the days of his life, which God giveth him under the sun" (ch. 8:15).

Many people settle their ideas on Eccl. 9: 6-10 and still miss the fact that the book focuses on issues of the present existence under the sun. That very chapter emphatically demonstrates this persuasion:

ch. 9:3 - "This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all. . ." || 9:6 - ". . .neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun" || 9:9 - "Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun" || 9:13 - "This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me"; etc.

The point to note here is that when many people settle their ideas on Eccl. 9, I'd like to appeal that they take the time to study what is actually being said there; rather than assume it makes a broad once-for-all treatise on issues of the experiences beyond the grave - which it does not. Matters of the afterlife are comprehensively detailed in other books of the Bible, rather than in Ecclesiastes.

Luke 16:23-24 is an example of the realities of another existence beyond the grave: "And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." Whatever may be argued from this passage, the question to ask is: Why would the Lord have spoken this parable if He intended nothing at all?

Rather than get into protracted debates to imply what is or isn't meant by this parable, at least we can all agree on a few vital facts highlighted thereto:

(a) death and burial are literal - "the beggar died. . . the rich man also died, and was buried" (vs. 22)

(b) a state of conscious existence beyond the grave was implied - "in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments . . .And he cried and said. . .I am tormented in this flame" (vss. 23, 24).

The Preacher in the book of Ecclesiates asked a question: "who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun" (Eccl. 6:12); and the answer is not given in any chapter of that book. Only when we turn to other books of the Bible (like Luke 16 above) can we then get answers to the Preacher's question. Other texts such as Daniel 12:2 and John 14:2 tell us far much more than could be gathered from Ecclesiates. When anyone treats verses in isolation (such as is usually done with Eccl. 9:5-10), then multiplied questions go unanswered in the face of connected subjects treated in other books of the Bible.

damosky:

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

(section ¬¦¦>) I'm glad to notice the author acknowledges this distinction which I wanted to point out earlier. Hell (that is, 'Hades') is NOT the same as the LAKE of FIRE; and this should help the understanding of those who argue that Jesus went to "hell" as if it meant the same place where the wicked will be finally cast into at the great white throne judgement. It would be well to never confuse these two radically different spheres.

damosky:

What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?
- - -
When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba′sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.

Please pay particular attention to the highlighted words above, for they do not articulate "annihilation" (i.e., obliteration into oblivion or non-existence). The author is persuaded that the meaning of 'eternal torment' is that "there will be no relief for the devil, and he will be held under restraint forever" - which does not convey the sense of annihilation or non-existence. If someone is being "held under restraint forever", would that be the same thing as such a person being "non-existent"?

@damosky,

damosky:

What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?

Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”

Let me repeat the beautiful response of syrup to this kind of supposition: "If death pays for sins, why hasn't anyone paid for his/her own sins by their own deaths?"

damosky:

After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

Again, that verse should not be taken as a floatation device to suppose that the sinner who dies in his/her sins would escape the final judgement in Rev. 20:12 & 15. The Lord Jesus categorically affirmed that a sinner will be raised to be judged for his/her sins: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:28-29).

Rom. 6:7 is to be understood in light of its connection with the surrounding verses, such as vs. 8 - "Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him". This is also borne out in Rev. 14:13 - "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." There is NO hope for those who die in their sins.

damosky:

Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality?

Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Did the author forget Jude 7 that he quoted in his article, showing that God actually judged Sodom and Gomorrah with fire on a larger scale? What are we to understand from the statement in Gen. 19:24 that says: "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven"??

We should understand that Jer. 7:31 expresses a commandment that forbids this practice into which apostate Jews of the day had fallen; which commandment we find in Lev 18:21 - "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD." The practice of burning one's children in the fire never came into God's heart; but that does not strike out the firm warning of God that the wicked will be punished in a burning hell. There are other texts in the Bible that warn of punishment by fire on a larger scale:

Lev. 10:1-2 - "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. (see also Num. 16:35).

Deut. 32:22 - "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." (compare II Pet. 3:7 & 12).

The question, however, is whether or not eternal torment of the wicked is compatible with God’s personality? If one sees the awesome holiness of God against the backdrop of sin and wickedness of men, could we suggest otherwise that God should have to relax His personality in this attribute and act less than holy? The talk of 'God is love' should never blind us to the warning that the same God is "a consuming fire" (Deut. 4:24; 9:3 & Heb. 12:29).

damosky:

What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?. . .

But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

I've severally heard this pseudo-piety from those who have a difficulty with the goodness and severity of God (Rom. 11:22).The sad and amazing thing about this accusative paroxysm is that the people making such statements may not realize such defamation and calumny weighs heavily against them than on anyone else.

Let me reference this as examples from the posts of contributors to this thread; but I do so without seeking to be derisive, and apologise upfront for any miscalculated misgivings that might be misread therefrom.

kmcutez:

This makes a lot of sense to me because i cannot equate the God who calls himself love, and by the way whom I serve, to a sadistic God that will allow his creation to suffer forever.

Bobbyaf:

If the concept of the "forever and ever" doctrine as it relates to the wicked being punished without end is wrong, then the advocates would have been responsble for depicting their loving Creator as a despot ruler, who after giving His creation a choice to obey, or disobey now turns around and hands down the most severe punishment ever witnessed in the universe.

Bobbyaf:

Such a horrible theory is slander against the holy name of a loving God. The devil delights to see our loving Creator pictured as such a monstrous tyrant, and he alone can benefit from such teachings.

By alleging God as a "despot ruler", "a monstrous tyrant", or 'a sadistic God', such slander and calumny weigh heavily against the arguments of those who make such statements; because in many instances they themselves sanction the very same aweful judgement that they disavow. If "a hell of torment slanders God and originates with the chief slanderer of God - the Devil", then see how the same slander has been celebrated in some of the posts of the same people:

damosky:

So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death.

Bobbyaf:

The wicked. . .will be [color=990000]burned up until[/color] they will be ashes under the soles of your feet.

Bobbyaf:

Some of the wicked no doubt will be punished over a longer time period than others, and might I add that Satan will be punished the longest, being the instigator of evil Himself[/b].

How is the love of the Creator preserved by Bobbyaf's admission that the wicked shall be burned up in fire - even if for one minute or one day; or, "a longer time period"? Does that make God's judgement any less severe and euphemizes their argument and position on the subject?

How is it that annihilationists are quick to make such calumnious accusations against God while they themselves are admitting to the same aweful judgement that they decry? Let me offer them to cease from this convoluted piety and come to terms with the declaration of Scripture on the subject.

Cheers.

@TayoD,
Much appreciate your outline on Tartarus and Hades - interesting. Regards.

@Analytical,
Lol. . . I've read through some of yours and I must express my gratitude in meeting so many intelligent users on the Forum. Look forward to yours whenever you find the time. Cheers.

@Bobbyaf,
Thanks for yours in the previous pages. Commitments the past week prevented my being online - but I trust that shahan's rejoinder has well articulated most of my concerns. Cheers and blessings.

@TV01,
Your queries have been interesting, and I would consider your concerns in reading those verses in yours as legitimate indeed; although I may not agree with all the inferences you drew from them. Just wanted to appreciate your efforts all the same. Many blessings.

@sage and demosky,
Even though I do not agree with your persuasions, I would still have to acknowledge that they're equally legitimate as the Scriptures you offered cannot be ignored. Thank you, and many blessings.

@gbade.x,
Good observation you gave earlier, and your subsequent submission. Another one well appreciated. Cheers.

@shahan,
Once again, you wowed me in your spirited defence of your persuasion on this subject. I've been busy the past week and couldn't be here to contribute to the thread. However, you said it better than I ever would have dreamed to articulate what I had in mind.

@All,
You've all been very inspiring, and I trust to read more of your intelligent inputs on many other topics. Bless y'all.

Hi Shahan,

Re your post quoted below, and specifically regards your references to the "soul"

shahan:

It is interesting to note that a 'professor of Sacred Scripture' could deny the nature of the soul as taught in the Bible. If the concept of 'soul' as separate from the 'body' does NOT exist in Scripture, what then does the Bible mean by the following texts? --

Gen. 35:18
"And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin." It is clear here that the soul departed from her body, and thus was separate from the body.

I Kings 17:21-22
"And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." Same thing here - the soul which had been separated from the body returned into the body of the child.

Job 14:22
"But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn." Job here marks the distinction between the "soul within" and the "flesh upon" as two separate entities of man.

Gen. 3:19 & Eccl. 12:7
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. .||. .Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." The distinction is made between the body of man that returns to the ground (dust) from which it was made; and the spirit of man that returns to God as a separate entity "formed" within man (see Zech.2 12:1 - "formeth the spirit of man within him".

Acts 2:27
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" We all know that when Jesus died, His body was in the tomb/sepulchre (Matt. 27:60 & Mark 15:46), but it was rather His soul as separate from His body that went to 'hell' (or, 'Hades').

It is beyond argument to suppose that the soul does not survive the death of the body; or that the soul as separate from the body does not exist in the Bible, as some professors of Sacred Scriptures would have us believe. On the contrary, the Bible distinctly teaches and affirms these concepts regardless the denials today.

Beyond argument? Hardly.

Simply put, the bible shows that man was made from the dust of the earth to which God breathed in spirit.

A soul only exists in as much as body and spirit are intact. Like two overlapping circles the area of the overlap is the consciousness (soul) that springs forth. So although man is often referred to as tri-partite, I am not sure this is strictly true.

It is also clearly evident from scripture, that "soul" can mean several things. Including person(ality), mind and even spirit.

As you yourself allude to in your quote below.

shahan:

Secondly, many people take Ezek. 18:4 to mean that the soul itself (as distinct from the body) "dies" - “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” What does this imply? It does not suggest that the incorporeal part of man called soul suffers 'death' - as I've attempted to demonstrate just above. Soul in that verse refers to the person himself, rather than to that which is in contrast to the body, as hinted at in the reference offered by the author - (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

It is the same sense of 'soul' as used for "the person" in the following: Gen 46:26 - "All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six" || Act 27:37 - "And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls || Rom 13:1 - "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers" || I Pet. 3:20 - "wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water".

Although it is correct to label the "soul" incorporeal, it exists in it's unique meaning only in as much as the living being is intact.

When a man dies, his spirit has departed (goes back to God who gave it). Hence there is no consciousness, that is death.  This will likewise be the case when God destroys both body and soul of the wicked. There will be no more consciousness or remembrance of them.

shahan:

Acts 2:27
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" We all know that when Jesus died, His body was in the tomb/sepulchre (Matt. 27:60 & Mark 15:46), but it was rather His soul as separate from His body that went to 'hell' (or, 'Hades'). This is underscored in I Pet. 3:18-19 - ". . .he went and preached unto the spirits in prison." It was not with the body in the sepulcher that the Lord Jesus went to 'hell' (or 'Hades') to preach unto the spirits in prison; it was rather the soul as separate from the body.

In this last cited example, we can deduce evidently that the soul indeed survives the death of the body. Were that not possible or not the case at all, how then could it be said that Jesus "went and preached unto the spirits in prison"?

It is beyond argument to suppose that the soul does not survive the death of the body; or that the soul as separate from the body does not exist in the Bible, as some professors of Sacred Scriptures would have us believe. On the contrary, the Bible distinctly teaches and affirms these concepts regardless the denials today.

Not to overlook your references to Acts 2 and 1 Peter 3 above.

Firstly, your exegesis of 1 Peter 3:18-19 is but one possible one (not that I deny you the right to hold it).

Secondly, why does it say went and preached to "spirits" and not souls?

Thirdly, to suggest the "soul" survives the death of the body alludes to it's being immortal. I posted earlier on this, showing that the Bible contains no such notion. Now that's beyond argument.

God bless

Hellfire and Brimstone
The Dark Shroud
For generations, the threat of eternal torture has hung like a dark, foreboding shroud over the heads of God's holy nation. There can be no doubt, "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Pr 9:10a). Healthy fear is merely awareness of a power source that poses a potential threat to those who attempt to misuse it. Who, in their right mind, would attempt to restrain a diesel truck unassisted by man or machine? Certainly the being credited with the creation of the earth, the one in control of nature's awesome power, is worthy of such respect. After all, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God" (He 10:31).

Terror Tactics
Healthy fear, based on truth, is one thing but intimidation using fear without biblical foundation is quite another. Many have been so frightened by this message that they have been driven by fear to the church altar. The verbal picture these ministers of terror paint is one of eternal suffering; everlasting torture for anyone who has not received Jesus as their savior. Is this scriptural? When we look through the sacred text do we find a God who punishes indiscriminately? Does God, with equal fury, allocate the same punishment to those who have disobeyed Him in ignorance as He has for those who have deliberately betrayed and rebelled against Him? Is our God a God of love (1 Jn 4: and patience or a cruel god of radical, inconsistent judgment? Is He a righteous judge or a bigoted tyrant? If there is no variance in the degree of our culpability, then how are those who teach the word held to a stricter judgment? How can we be judged according to our works? Certainly our works are not all the same, so then, how can our judgment or punishment be the same?
Deceptive Doctrine
Many of us, if not most, were taught that unless we believed in Christ we were destined to be cast alive into the flames of hell where we would be tormented in the fire night and day forever. This is not only false but isn't even sound doctrinally unless hell and the lake of fire are the same place but they're not.
Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
From the beginning, God's plan has been one of sacrifice, mercy and love. (2 Pet 3:9). Much of what we've been taught about judgment, hell and eternal punishment falls under the heading of false teaching; it does not conform to God's written word.
God's Mercy In Eden
God's first intervention to save man from his ongoing quest to destroy himself was in the Garden of Eden. The moment man succumbed to the seductive temptation offered him by the serpent of Eden; he became eligible to perish in the eternal flames of the fiery lake. It is important to note that man, as long as he remained mortal, could perish, which is to say, not be able to live forever in flesh or spirit. If however, he could become immortal, to live forever, his punishment for failing God would be compounded to the maximum. In effect, his punishment would be never ending. Eating the forbidden fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought great sorrow upon Adam and Eve but through God's intervention, the punishment for this sin could now be, at God's discretion, limited.
Let us not forget there were two trees of note in the Garden of Eden. In the beginning, this second tree, the tree of life, was fully available to man. Contrary to the tree of knowledge, which only brought death, this tree held the promise of life everlasting and was there to be taken. After sin was introduced, this tree, the tree of life, became even more of a threat to man than its companion. It posed an unseen and unrecognized danger. If man ate of this tree in his fallen state, he would live forever in this condition and his punishment would then, by necessity, be eternal. It is at this point we first see God's mercy.
God saw this dilemma immediately and moved quickly to prevent a bad situation from becoming much worse. By placing angelic guards at this tree, He protected man from bringing eternal consequences upon himself. Man could not reach the tree of life without causing himself mortal death thus he could not eat of it and live to endure everlasting torment. Now that God could no longer trust man, because of his fallen nature, he, man would have to be driven from the garden.
Gen 3:22-24
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
God had now limited man; he was mortal, he had temporary life but nothing more, and even that was moving toward death with every passing moment.
By God's intervention two important things had been accomplished. First, man could not live forever to suffer eternally in his fallen state and second, he could perish in his sin; he could burn up, dissolve, be no more which is preferable to the alternative. God had another plan to bring eternal life to man; God's plans are never thwarted by anything or anyone. He had planned to offer eternal life to man and He would through His only begotten son. Before this could be accomplished, the damages caused to man's relationship with God would have to be repaired and full payment made for all the damages done.

The terrible, hereditary, spiritual disease called sin, introduced by one man, would now spread to all men and would now have to be healed before eternal life could be offered again (1 Pet 2:24). If sin was introduced by one man then by one man it could be removed providing, this man could uphold the law of righteousness perfectly (Ro 5:12-19).

The Last Round-Up
In Matthew twenty-five, beginning in verse thirty-one, Christ describes His coming and the gathering of those who wear His brand (the seal of the Holy Spirit-Eph 1:13). He mentioned this moment and its events often. Consider the parables of "the wheat and the tares" (Mat 13:24-30, 36-43) and the "great net" (Mat 13:47-51) or His metaphor of the sheep and goats given in Matthew 25 (Mat 25:31-46) to mention only a few. In each of these, Christ and His holy angels deal with separating His redeemed children, living and asleep (dead), from those alive in the flesh but dead spiritually and their physically and spiritually dead forbearers that await judgment and final disposition.
Rev 20:5
5 but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those who remain alive at His coming but do not rise to meet the Lord are depicted as goats while the resurrected, both alive and sleeping, are pictured as sheep.
At the time of Christ's coming, all those remaining on earth fall into two camps. They are either sheep who know and follow the voice of their chief shepherd, Jesus (Jn 5:28-29), or they are goats who have received the mark of the beast. The sheep are changed in the wink of an eye and gathered by the holy angels to meet Christ in the air (1 Cor 15:51-52, Mat 24:31). These goats having worshipped Satan are, at the point of the resurrection, all that remains of earth's living inhabitants and everyone of them, without exception, bares the brand of the beast on their right hand or forehead. As the cross is synonymous with Christians so the pentagram is with worshippers of Satan. This five pointed star with its two legs pointed up is often shown as the head of a goat; a symbol often seen in Satanic covens.
Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:16-18
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
These goats are the only body of people known to receive the full measure of God's wrath. This unique herd of goats will be granted an eternal life of torment; their punishment will be without end. Though rebellious and sinful, they will be granted eternal life to suffer in the flames of the unquenchable lake of fire created for the devil and his angels.
Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matt 25:46
46 and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
What about the unredeemed dead who have neither received the mark of the beast or Christ?
Three Possible Ends
There are only three ways in which man can ultimately be dispatched. One, he can receive Christ and live eternally in God's kingdom. Two, he can worship the beast and his image, receiving his mark and spend eternity in torment or three, through ignorance or disbelief, be consumed by the fire and brimstone becoming the victim of the second death. We have a choice because we know Him, some have little choice because they've never heard of Christ or the good news of forgiveness and reconciliation. Even these should have known, through nature, that there exists only one creator of heaven and earth.
Rom 1:20
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Who is that creator? Jesus Christ (Jn 1:1-3, Col 1:15-16)! I have a brother named Peter. If I refer to my sibling as Peter or as brother, am I not addressing the same person? If I speak to the creator of heaven and earth as creator or as Jesus, am I not speaking to the same person? When one, untouched by the gospel, believes in the maker of heaven and earth and trusts Him for his deliverance, will God reject him?
Twice Dead
Jude 11-12
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
In the book of Revelation, chapter twenty and verse six, Jesus said, "Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power". The first resurrection involves all practicing believers, alive and dead, who are gathered from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (1 Thes 4:16-17, 1 Cor 15:51-52, Mat 24:31). What is this second death which has no power over the redeemed? If the first death is the death of the flesh and all must die this death prior to judgment, then what is this second death?
Heb 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
[17.18]
Let's reason this out. We are born in the flesh once and after believing in Christ, we are born in the Spirit thus we are born again. If we die our first death in the flesh, then what would be the second death? Could it possibly be the death of man's spirit?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. This is why Jesus said, "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be filled" (Mat 5:18). All is fulfilled following the great judgment and heaven and earth do pass away.
Rev 21:1
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Those who have not walked in God's grace shall be judged by His law (Heb 9:15).
Rom 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
What about those born before the law? They will be held accountable as well and will perish without the law.
Rom 2:12
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
The wages of sin is death.
Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
What is death? The word "death" (Strong's #2288) in Greek is thanatos (than-at-os) which means figuratively or literally, death. There is nothing mysterious or complicated about it, death is death and death is the total and complete absence of life, inanimate. When you're dead, you're dead; you cease to be. When the body dies it returns to the dust, the inanimate substance it was before receiving God's breath of life and when your spirit dies, it ceases to be as well.
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen 3:19
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
The second death is the death of the soul, a word which covers our total being of flesh and spirit. Anyone overtaken by death while not walking in the path of righteousness is under penalty of eternal death. Why do we say eternal death? Because there are many believers who now sleep in the dust who will awake from this temporary death when they hear the voice of the Son of God (Jn 5:28). These others of whom we speak, will become the victims of eternal death; they will never wake again. They will not experience the temporary death Christians experience. Instead, they will receive the total destruction of their very being; the end of their very existence.
James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

From Death To Life
In the New Testament gospel of John, chapter five, verse twenty-four, Jesus made three important points. He said,:
1. "he who hears my word and believes in Him who sent me has everlasting life.
2. and does not come into judgment
3. but has passed from death into life."
[17.25]
To this, He adds, "He who believes in me has everlasting life" (Jn 3:16, 6:47). If we keep His word, we shall never see death (Jn 8:51). Scripture makes it clear that all men face mortal death (Heb 9:27, Gen 3:19, Job 21:23-26). If this is so, then Jesus is not speaking of our mortal death but rather the death of our soul (Jn 8:24, Ro 1:32, 5:21, 6:16, 21, 8:6).
[17.26]
At this point, someone is bound to question this conclusion by reminding us that Enoch and Elijah seemingly escaped mortal death. However, a closer look reveals that it catches up to them before the second coming of Christ (Re 11:7). Others may also object on the grounds that many shall be alive at the time of His coming and therefore, do not die. If this is so, how are we passed from death into life (Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14)? How do we receive new bodies if the old ones still live? Are we not appointed once to die (Heb 9:27) and our bodies allocated to rot and return to dust (Gen 3:19)? To be passed from death into life we must first die. So, believers are passed from death into life (Jn 6:47). What if we don't believe in Christ, will we still pass from death to life or will we be condemned to pass from death to death; from mortal death to spiritual death? Are the wages of sin death or eternal torment (Ro 6:23)? Isn't mortal death the result of sin and isn't spiritual death the result of rejecting the only begotten son of God?
John 3:18
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
[17.27]
Doesn't the death of the soul come about by walking in the darkness of sin? We know that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin if we walk in the light of righteousness as Christ does (1 Jn 1:7). What if we choose to walk in the darkness of sin instead, does the blood of Christ still cleanse us from all sin? Isn't spiritual death the payment for unconfessed, unrepented and thus, uncleansed sin (Ro 6:23, 1 Jn 1:7, 1 Jn 1:9)? What else could the scriptures be referring to when speaking of the second death? This death is reserved for all who have not believed in Christ (Re 2:11, 20:6, 14, 21:8, Mat 7:21-22, Lk 6:46). If the first death terminates mortal life then the second must certainly end all spiritual life.
One Exception
There can be only one exception to this rule and God Himself, has made it. He has promised eternal torment to all who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark. This group will receive the everlasting punishment and shame promised to them for t heir betrayal (Mat 25:46, Re 14:9-11). If everyone who rejects or fails to receive Jesus is condemned to eternal torture, then why has Christ declared the punishment for worshipping the beast to be worse than all others (Re 14:9-11).
Why does He say they receive the full strength of His wrath? If all the unredeemed received the same punishment, then what would be the purpose of this warning? Where's the threat?
The lake of fire is not the same place as hell like so many believe (see chapter ten). It was designed and built for the devil and his angels.
Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
But all who have not believed in Christ are ultimately dumped there. Most will be consumed in its flames and be no more. The maker of the soul will become its destroyer and this is preferable to the alternative. Those who have received the mark of the bea st and worshiped the beast and his image will not be able to die but will instead be tormented forever.
Isa 66:24
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:16-17
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
From the beginning, God demonstrated His mercy upon fallen man by shielding him from the eternal death of the soul. When man fell to sin, God withheld immortality from him so that, in his fallen state, man could not live forever.
Gen 3:22-24
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Can the soul die? Is that possible? If we turn a backslidden brother toward Christ and repentance, have we not saved his soul from death (Js 5:20)? The answer is positively, yes (Js 5:19-20)!
No Judgment?
When Jesus said, "We shall not come into judgment" (Jn 5:24), He was speaking of the great, white throne judgment spoken of in Rev 20:11-14. Make no mistake, the redeemed will stand before the judgment seat of Christ as their names are read from the Lamb' s book of life but each of these will receive a full pardon. Why? Because Christ paid the price as the propitiation for their sin.
Rom 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Luke 20:36
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:15
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:27
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
[17.34]
Note: In Rev 20:12, the dead are judged out of the books (books, plural) not book (singular). The book spoken of is the Lamb's book of life and the books are the judgment books of punishment and death. The Lamb's book is a book of pardon and grace. No judgment falls on those whose names appear within it. Christ alone is the presiding justice of this court and though all living and dead must appear before Him, not all will be judged by Him (2 Cor 5:10, Jn 5:22-24). However, as Christians we will be require d to give an account of ourselves (Ro 14:12).
That Isn't Fair
How often have we, as children, uttered the words "that isn't fair" when our parents curtailed one of our activities or grounded us for violating a family rule? In hindsight, most of us would have to admit that most of the time, they were right and their decisions were just, if not a bit lenient. I have contemplated the justice of God and have questioned it much the same way as a precocious adolescent. If the prophet David meditated upon the law of God, why not me? Children reach an age when their minds a re filled with questions. Daddy, why is the sky blue and do dogs go to Heaven when they die, etc? Like a young child, I too, have had questions for my father; my heavenly father. For example, if the members of a remote tribe never heard of Jesus or saw a bible, would they be tortured night and day forever and ever when they died? What about nice people who lived moral lives but never developed a personal relationship with Christ, would they suffer the same eternal torment reserved for a mass murderer? If a boy or girl of twelve dies as a result of a car accident or fatal disease, is it fair; is it God's justice for this child to spend eternity in torture for their sins while giving the same sentence to a hardened child rapist and killer? We know that teachers of the word receive a stricter judgment.
James 3:1
3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Doesn't this indicate that those with more opportunity and knowledge are held to a higher level of responsibility and therefore receive a greater punishment for failure?
According To Their Works
If the body of Christ is subject to the laws of grace, then by what standard are the unredeemed judged? Perhaps they're judged by the Law of Moses. If not, why would Jesus have said, "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot o r one title will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled". The legal foundations for most of the world's greatest civilizations have been built upon the Ten Commandments. God has assured us that no man can be justified by the works of the law so it is to Satan's advantage to base the world's legal system on them. If the law continues to survive till all be fulfilled, then who does it survive to judge? Civilization has placed itself in obedience to it. Therefore, all those who serve it are sub jects of it and will be judged by it.
Rom 7:1
7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Are Christians free from obeying the law of the land? No; we must give our governments the obedience due them, at the same time, remembering to keep our priorities straight by not giving to our nation any obedience which runs contrary to the will of God.
Matt 22:21
21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Most earthly law is initiated for our protection and God has authorized its enforcers to punish all offenders (Ro 13:1-4). But we must always remember when forced to make a choice between serving the law of men or serving God, God must always be our choice (Ac 4:19, 5:29). All those who served as ministers of Satan while appearing to me ministers of righteousness will be judged according to their works, just as Alexander the coppersmith will most likely be (2 Tim 4:14).
2 Cor 11:15
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
All the unredeemed will be resurrected to judgment in the second resurrection (the second resurrection is the resurrection of the unsanctified dead) and judged out of the judgment books according to their works.
Rev 20:12-13
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Once judgment has taken place, all that remains is execution; as each guilty offender receives the punishment appropriate to those evil works which they did in the flesh. Each one of them will have their portion in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone. Their suffering will be in direct proportion to their sin according to the wisdom and justice of almighty God. Like wafer's dissolving at different rates in boiling water, these souls will dissolve into nothingness. They are able to pass from existence because they were never granted eternal life. They will be terminated by the second death.
Fallen angels and men, who have chosen to follow Satan by worshipping the beast, will receive a much greater punishment. They will suffer in this boiling brimstone lake for eternity, unable to die and unable to quench the flames that eternally torment their soul. It will likely be similar to the torment encountered during the tribulation, when the locusts came and stung men with a scorpion-like sting. At that time, they sought death but could not find it and this may now become their spiritual fate for eternity. Those angels and men may seek death but be unable to find it.
Those that chose to worship Satan as king will get to spend eternity being tormented with him and with the beast and son of perdition (false prophet) known as the antichrist.
Rev 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Death And Prison Destroyed
All the unredeemed will be destroyed burned up in the lake of fire; all but those who accepted the mark of the beast. Those left alive will be alive forever, both those in the lake of torment and those in the kingdom of God who abide eternally with Chris t. There is no need for death or the one who once held its power and there is no longer any need for the prison that once held the unredeemed and rebellious for the Day of Judgment; the prison known as Hades (hell), the place of the dead. As trash, both h ell and death are cast into the lake of fire for there is no longer a need for either. (For clarification, read chapter ten (10) "When Christians Die.)
Rev 20:13-14
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
To Die Or To Perish
There may possibly be some skeptics who think that the term "perish" is less rigid than the term "death" but an examination of this word reveals this to be a false assumption. The word "perish" may be found in Strong's Greek dictionary under their number #622. In Greek, the word for perish is "apollumi" (ap-ol-loo-mee) and means to destroy fully and once again it means this figuratively and literally. There is simply no way around this meaning. It calls for the complete and total destruction of the soul. "Whosoever believes in Him should not perish"…(Jn 3:16). What if you don't believe in Him, what happens then? You perish! When we speak of death in terms of Romans 6:23, we're not speaking of mortal death but spiritual death; the death of the soul.
Rom 6:21-23
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 8:6
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Once again, if belief in Christ brings spiritual life (Jn 5:24, 6:47), then what does disbelief bring?
2 Cor 1:9-10
9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
Who is it that encourages this disbelief that brings eternal death?
Heb 2:14
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
We know that no man is tempted beyond his capacity to resist (1 Co 10:13) but when, through lust, we give in to temptation, sin is born and when sin is allowed to grow and prosper, it brings death; spiritual death.
James 1:14-16
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
James 5:20
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Christ alone holds the keys to eternal life, death and the place of the dead (Re 1:18). We are admonished to be over-comers; to overcome evil with good (Ro 12:21). By so doing, we will not be stung by the second death.
Rev 2:11
11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Luke 20:36
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
God will destroy all who have chosen to follow false teachers, man-pleasing hypocrites who offer the same seductive lies that Jezebel told (Re 2:23). All such deceivers will be completely destroyed in the lake of fire;
Matt 7:23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Rev 21:8
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
All except those who wear the mark of the beast, their fate will be much worse (Mt 25:46, Re 14:11). They can not die.
Death Not Torment
All peoples, tongues and nations who have not believed and followed the only begotten Son of God; all who have died in ignorance, those who have not worshipped the beast, his image or taken his mark will be extinguished as the flame on a candle. Each will suffer for a time, the duration of which will be in direct proportion to their works, thus each shall have their individual part in the lake of fire but when their portion is fully paid, they shall perish. We have God's word on it!
Jesus, referring to His sheep, said, "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish".
John 10:27-28
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
There are many who are not His sheep, many who have chosen the broad path leading to destruction (Mt 7:13-14). What about these? As believers, we are as a sweet fragrance before God and the aroma of death to those who are perishing.
2 Cor 2:15-16
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
Note: They perish; they come to complete and total destruction, they are fully destroyed. Many of those who perish (not suffer eternally) do so because they chose to believe lies rather than God's truth (2 Thes 2:10). What is truth? Truth is the word of G od (Jn 17:17). If we would but study the word of God, we would learn what God teaches on these things. Let's heed the advice given in His word for the days ahead grow increasingly evil and deceivers more abundant.
2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2 Tim 3:13-15
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Some things are just too important to leave to others! "Study to show yourself approved."

Hi @TV01,

Great to read your concerns in reply to my latest posts.

TV01:

Re your post quoted below, and specifically regards your references to the "soul"

Beyond argument? Hardly.

Simply put, the bible shows that man was made from the dust of the earth to which God breathed in spirit.

'Beyond argument' in allusion to the professor of Sacred Scripture whose broad statement cannot be sustained in the Bible.

However, I agree with yours in allusion to Gen. 2:7.

TV01:

A soul only exists in as much as body and spirit are intact. Like two overlapping circles the area of the overlap is the consciousness (soul) that springs forth. So although man is often referred to as tri-partite, I am not sure this is strictly true.

I can understand your persuasion; but it's quite limiting. First, man is actually tripartite - I Thes. 5:23 speaks of man's "whole spirit and soul and body"; and the Bible shows that there is a "dividing asunder of soul and spirit" in Heb. 4:12.

Yet, I'd have to agree with your summation of the soul alluding sometimes to the "consciousness" of man. However, besides that one aspect of the meaning given the soul in the Bible, another is that it represents the "person/personality" of an individual; and yet again, is sometimes used in reference to the 'faculties' of man - in which case Mary's exultation in Luke 1:46-47 ~~ "And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."

Although you acknowledged that the soul has more than one meaning in Scripture, let me offer this teaser to the point. We could be sure that God was not meaning to require the "consciousness" of the rich man in Luke 12:20 in the statement: "this night thy soul shall be required of thee".

However, I'm not persuaded about the idea that the soul 'only exists in as much as body and spirit are intact', as though it was some abstract concept less distinguishable from spirit and body. That idea is unsustained in light of the texts alluded to above, and several others in Scripture.

TV01:

It is also clearly evident from scripture, that "soul" can mean several things. Including person(ality), mind and even spirit.

As you yourself allude to in your quote below.

. . . And as reiterated just above.

TV01:

Although it is correct to label the "soul" incorporeal, it exists in it's unique meaning only in as much as the living being is intact.

That may not be the case in light of the Scriptures already offered:

# I Kings 17:21-22 - "the soul of the child came into him again", which suggests a separate, distinct entity intact on its own apart from the body.

# Acts 2:27 - "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell", again demonstrating a distinct entity from the body that was laid in the tomb/sepulchre.

# Gen. 35:18 - "her soul was in departing", indicative of same sense as above.

TV01:

When a man dies, his spirit has departed (goes back to God who gave it). Hence there is no consciousness, that is death.

Okay; but even so I hope that does nopt translate into the idea that when a man dies, there is no "soul" - if the term strictly means "consciousness"? There may not be consciousness in the reality of this world; but that is not to suggest that the soul ceases to exist apart from the body.

TV01:

This will likewise be the case when God destroys both body and soul of the wicked. There will be no more consciousness or remembrance of them.

Now, where does that leave the spirit of man? Also, have we carefully examined the import of God destroying both the "body and soul" in hell? Doesn't that suggest well enough that the wicked will be raised in their bodies as well? And if the wicked have "souls" that will be destroyed in 'hell', does that not hint at the idea that their souls do not cease to exist at death and burial?

TV01:

Not to overlook your references to Acts 2 and 1 Peter 3 above.

Firstly, your exegesis of 1 Peter 3:18-19 is but one possible one (not that I deny you the right to hold it).

True that - it is not the only possible interpretation.

TV01:

Secondly, why does it say went and preached to "spirits" and not souls?

For two reasons, I believe:

(a) 'spirit' and 'soul' are sometimes (not always) used interchangeably to refer to the individual in particular - in just the same way that 'angels' are sometimes referred to as 'men', even though we know they are not synonymous in essence (see Gen. 19:1, 10-11); and,

(b) in their essential nature as separated from their bodies, they were referred to as "spirits" rather than as "souls". The former indicates their nature of existence apart from their bodies; the latter would point to the people in particular rather than their state of existence.

Let me expound on the second reason. Heb. 12:23 speaks of the "spirits" (rather than the 'souls') of men made perfect, emphasizing rather the nature of their existence; but in Rev. 6:9 we read of the "souls" (not 'spirits') of those who had been slain, because our God wants to draw our attention to individuals in particular who suffered for their faith, rather than the nature of their existence after they were slain.

Again, the Bible calls God "the Father of spirits" (Heb. 12:9) and "the God of the spirits of all flesh" (Num. 16:22) - which in their context point to the essential nature of men as spirit-beings (cf. Acts 17:28 - 'we are also His offspring'; and John 3:6). However, we also read in Job 12:10 that in His hand is the "soul" of every living thing, defining individuality and personality.

It is interesting to note that the distinction between spirit and soul is also highlighted in Isaiah 57:16 - "the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made" (see also ch. 42:5). Nonetheless, that we many times read of 'soul' as pointing to the individual in particular references is underscored by the refrain: "that soul (not, 'that spirit') shall be cut off from his people" - Gen. 17:14 and Exo. 31:14.

TV01:

Thirdly, to suggest the "soul" survives the death of the body alludes to it's being immortal. I posted earlier on this, showing that the Bible contains no such notion. Now that's beyond argument.

Well, first we both agree that the soul is not inherently immortal. Secondly, that the soul survives death is without question as have been demonstrated severally. Third, the immortality referred to in those verses you posted do not negate the fact that the soul leaves the body and is in a state of conscious existence beyond the grave. If it were otherwise, the texts already proffered for this would have been saying something else.

As to the context of the state of conscious existence beyond the grave, I wonder if you have an explanation for the Lord's statement in Mark 9:44, 46 & 48 - "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"??

Enjoyed the challenges you offered - succinct and refreshing. May I offer my sincere apologies for my reactive response earlier.

Cheers.

shahan:

I can understand your persuasion; but it's quite limiting. First, man is actually tripartite - I Thes. 5:23 speaks of man's "whole spirit and soul and body"; and the Bible shows that there is a "dividing asunder of soul and spirit" in Heb. 4:12.

Possibly, I am aware of Thessalonians 5:3, and while it distinguishes between the three, it does not necessarily mean they are all entirely seperate.

Numerous verses intimate to the fact that the soul (as consciousness, mind, will, emotions, intellect etc) is/can be more to the carnal.

As believers we first recieve reborn spirits and then ressurected bodies. The only other thing is a "renewed mind", which we are to strive for/ work towards. The renewed mind impacts the character (personality or soul).

Even Hebrews 4:12 buttresses this somewhat, as if the soul was entirely seperate. Why would it require "dividing asunder?".

Anyway, most of the above is really only nuance. I quite appreciate the subtelties the discussion is drawing out.

Although you acknowledged that the soul has more than one meaning in Scripture, let me offer this teaser to the point. We could be sure that God was not meaning to require the "consciousness" of the rich man in Luke 12:20 in the statement: "this night thy soul shall be required of thee".

Absolutely, the rendering of any word translated soul has to be read in context. I think we are agreed on the fact that the term soul can be employed with various meanings. Our difference appears to be in it's total seperateness and non-dependance on both body and spirit.

However, I'm not persuaded about the idea that the soul 'only exists in as much as body and spirit are intact', as though it was some abstract concept less distinguishable from spirit and body. That idea is unsustained in light of the texts alluded to above, and several others in Scripture.

I see no where in scripture that a soul (as seperate and distinct from a body or spirit), was ever created (in its unique seperate sense), or existed without a body. Do spirits have souls? Do animals have spirits?

# I Kings 17:21-22 - "the soul of the child came into him again", which suggests a separate, distinct entity intact on its own apart from the body.

# Acts 2:27 - "thou wilt not leave my soul in hell", again demonstrating a distinct entity from the body that was laid in the tomb/sepulchre.

# Gen. 35:18 - "her soul was in departing", indicative of same sense as above.

Simply rendering soul as spirit in these instances would answer here. Worth pondering is the fact that there is no mention of the spirit returning? Can one live with just body and soul? I see here that the spirit returns and the soul is animated.

Okay; but even so I hope that does nopt translate into the idea that when a man dies, there is no "soul" - if the term strictly means "consciousness"? There may not be consciousness in the reality of this world; but that is not to suggest that the soul ceases to exist apart from the body.

I think our difference actualises itsellf here. In light of what I have posted in this response thus far (and previously), I am saying just that. I know your persuasions in light of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, but I am persuaded by the references to immortality I have posted severally and the fact that the dead sleep. I don't see that souls roam or are kept somewhere in conscious existance outside an intact body and spirit.

Now, where does that leave the spirit of man? Also, have we carefully examined the import of God destroying both the "body and soul" in hell? Doesn't that suggest well enough that the wicked will be raised in their bodies as well? And if the wicked have "souls" that will be destroyed in 'hell', does that not hint at the idea that their souls do not cease to exist at death and burial?

I believe the spirit returns to our maker. I also believe ressurection will be of the whole person (although I don't personally believe the wicked will get new bodies). When body and mind/consciousness are destroyed, the spirit returns as previous.

For two reasons, I believe:

(a) 'spirit' and 'soul' are sometimes (not always) used interchangeably to refer to the individual in particular - in just the same way that 'angels' are sometimes referred to as 'men', even though we know they are not synonymous in essence (see Gen. 19:1, 10-11); and,

(b) in their essential nature as separated from their bodies, they were referred to as "spirits" rather than as "souls". The former indicates their nature of existence apart from their bodies; the latter would point to the people in particular rather than their state of existence.

Let me expound on the second reason. Heb. 12:23 speaks of the "spirits" (rather than the 'souls') of men made perfect, emphasizing rather the nature of their existence; but in Rev. 6:9 we read of the "souls" (not 'spirits') of those who had been slain, because our God wants to draw our attention to individuals in particular who suffered for their faith, rather than the nature of their existence after they were slain.

(a) I think we've agreed severally  on this point.
(b) I agree with you here, but I think this speaks more to my "overlapping body & spirit" animated soul, rather than a distinct and totally independant one.

Again, the Bible calls God "the Father of spirits" (Heb. 12:9) and "the God of the spirits of all flesh" (Num. 16:22) - which in their context point to the essential nature of men as spirit-beings (cf. Acts 17:28 - 'we are also His offspring'; and John 3:6). However, we also read in Job 12:10 that in His hand is the "soul" of every living thing, defining individuality and personality.

It is interesting to note that the distinction between spirit and soul is also highlighted in Isaiah 57:16 - "the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made" (see also ch. 42:5). Nonetheless, that we many times read of 'soul' as pointing to the individual in particular references is underscored by the refrain: "that soul (not, 'that spirit') shall be cut off from his people" - Gen. 17:14 and Exo. 31:14.

Again, I see this as more fully attested to by soul as overlap.

Well, first we both agree that the soul is not inherently immortal. Secondly, that the soul survives death is without question as have been demonstrated severally. Third, the immortality referred to in those verses you posted do not negate the fact that the soul leaves the body and is in a state of conscious existence beyond the grave. If it were otherwise, the texts already proffered for this would have been saying something else.

Firstly ~ Agreed
Secondly ~ Not from where i'm sitting it hasn't
Thirdly ~ I think they do.

As to the context of the state of conscious existence beyond the grave, I wonder if you have an explanation for the Lord's statement in Mark 9:44, 46 & 48 - "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched"??

An allusion to Gehenna, where conditions are such that everything is consumed.

Enjoyed the challenges you offered - succinct and refreshing. May I offer my sincere apologies for my reactive response earlier.

Not at all, I enjoy the debate and quite appreciate that we all can get a little heated. Please don't take offense at my sometimes combative literary (literary ke?) style.

God bless

Shahan it will be good if u noted that right from creation God showed humans the consequence of deviation. They would die. At no place did God tell them that they would burn forever. Satan was the one perpetrating the idea of wrongdoers living forever

Eternal fiery judgement was used in the bible to refer to eternal anahilation. You once said that the two words were contradictory but they are not. unlike some cities that were destroyed and rebuilt, eternal fire was used to foretell the eternal anahilation of some cities.

Isaiah 34:10 tells us that the fire that burns in the city of Edom would not be extinguished and that it would burn forever and ever. Other passages in the same chapter clearly showed Edom would be anahilated forever. Today, no literal smoke ascends from Edom forever and ever, but her destruction was permanent.

Same story 4 Sodom.


Eternal fire was also used to depict the eternal destruction of several ancient cities that have never been rebuit.

Rev 20:8 does not indicate a literal fire. but rev explains the lake of fire as the second death.
It also indicated that death will be thrown into the lake of fire as will Hell.
Now death is not a physical thing, and hell(which Jesus also went to) is the common earth or grave under the soil.

If it were a literal fire, how would death and the literal sand be thrown into fire forever. It doesnt make any sense whatever. The literal soil used to bury people being thrown inside fire does not achieve anything.

Other bible passages however indicate that death would be anahilated forever ie thrown into the lake of fire.

The parable of Lazarus was exactly what it was ------------------, a parable and was not literal in any sense.

Shahan have you ever tried to find out what God's purpose for this earth is?

On the issue of the condition of the dead
When Jesus friend Lazarus died, Jesus highlighted the condition of the dead when he compared Lazarus to a sleeping man. Jesus never indicated that any part of Lazarus survived his death or was somewhere else waiting on something or anything like that. Lazarus had no consciousness whatsoever in line with the truth about the dead unlike the lies perpetrated today.

Shahan you really have no grasp of what Soul and Spirit means.

Man does not have an Immortal soul, the bible is very clear on that. The spirit is not the same as the soul. It is the lifeforce that goes out at death.


TV01 im amazed by the depth of your Knowledge of the Bible. A very good bible student. I am always open to reasoning with peole on Biblical issues and ready to adjust if a person can prove his beliefs from the bible.

Unfortunately so called morden day Christianity has masked so many false teachings and paraded it like its the truth, decieving billions in the process. Any open minded good student of the bible will be appaled at most of the churchs doctrines

TV01

I would like to know ur stand on many issues that i still have found no basis in the bible for those teachings.

1 immortality of the soul---------- a big lie perpertuated by the church (looks like we have similar views)

2 Eternal Punishment----------2 bigger lie (i think u and i have similar views)

3 And the most controversial of all-The Trinity Doctrine----The biggest fraud the church has perpetrated.

Careful consideration of the bible has shown me certain things. But funny enough if you try to point it out to other people they accuse you of trying to promote the doctrine of a sect or cults . And since you know your views are from the bible, u cant help but wonder which sects and cults they are talking about.


I think i know your views on other issues like Christians and Politics and Military service , Popes and other church 'leading' man glorifying titles and tithes (or should i say theiving pastors ), The churchs harlory among others

sage:

TV01 im amazed by the depth of your Knowledge of the Bible. A very good bible student. I am always open to reasoning with peole on Biblical issues and ready to adjust if a person can prove his beliefs from the bible.

Hi Sage, I appreciate the words of encouragement, but I must acknowledge that everything I have, I recieved. I cannot act as if I did not. God is not partial. I try and hear Him direct and I know He speaks. And although I cherish the direct moments, I appreciate that oft times, He can speak through others and I don't want to be too proud too hear.

I must say that I have been edified no end and in so many ways by other contributors to this forum (sincere thanks all ). This thread is a point in question, I had a lot of stuff just lying there, unresearched, unpondered, unstructured and unarticulated. Lots of the discussions here forces me to look closely and really scrutinise what I think, or what I thought I thunk .

sage:

TV01

I would like to know your stand on many issues that i still have found no basis in the bible for those teachings.

1 immortality of the soul---------- a big lie perpertuated by the church (looks like we have similar views)

2 Eternal Punishment----------2 bigger lie (i think u and i have similar views)

3 And the most controversial of all-The Trinity Doctrine----The biggest fraud the church has perpetrated.

Careful consideration of the bible has shown me certain things. But funny enough if you try to point it out to other people they accuse you of trying to promote the doctrine of a sect or cults . And since you know your views are from the bible, u can't help but wonder which sects and cults they are talking about.


I think i know your views on other issues like Christians and Politics and Military service , Popes and other church 'leading' man glorifying titles and tithes (or should i say theiving pastors ), The churchs harlory among others

I try and articualte my individual doctrinal positions as a unified whole. As revelation and understanding deepen, I can fill in gaps update areas and reflect on others. I do not have a complete picture (and kinda doubt I ever will this side of eternity).

I know from several threads that we have similar stances on several points, but I am quick to acknowlege my own puny limits. I would suggest people open threads on any areas they have questions. As much as we may be correct on certain points, none of us know it all and even when people have misconceptions or wrong positions, their posers can still be very pertinent and edifying

Later dude

God bless

@TV01,

Hi there again. Your rejoinder acknowledged. However, before posting a reply, would it be too much to request that you discuss the verses offered as to what they point out or convey to your understanding:

Gen. 35:18
"And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin." It is clear here that the soul departed from her body, and thus was separate from the body.

I Kings 17:21-22
"And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived." Same thing here - the soul which had been separated from the body returned into the body of the child.

Job 14:22
"But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn." Job here marks the distinction between the "soul within" and the "flesh upon" as two separate entities of man.

Gen. 3:19 & Eccl. 12:7
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. .||. .Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." The distinction is made between the body of man that returns to the ground (dust) from which it was made; and the spirit of man that returns to God as a separate entity "formed" within man (see Zech.2 12:1 - "formeth the spirit of man within him".

Acts 2:27
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" We all know that when Jesus died, His body was in the tomb/sepulchre (Matt. 27:60 & Mark 15:46), but it was rather His soul as separate from His body that went to 'hell' (or, 'Hades'). This is underscored in I Pet. 3:18-19 - ". . .he went and preached unto the spirits in prison." It was not with the body in the sepulcher that the Lord Jesus went to 'hell' (or 'Hades') to preach unto the spirits in prison; it was rather the soul as separate from the body.

Rev. 6:9-10 (add vs. 11): "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

I need to really get your point/perspective before saying anything further. Cheers.

@sage,

sage:

Shahan you really have no grasp of what Soul and Spirit means.

Perhaps. However, why don't you discuss their meanings rather than allege that about me?

And, I think we can share views and maintain good sense rather than focus on discussants.

Meanwhile:

sage:

1 immortality of the soul---------- a big lie perpertuated by the church (looks like we have similar views)

2 Eternal Punishment----------2 bigger lie

3 And the most controversial of all-The Trinity Doctrine----The biggest fraud the church has perpetrated.

#1. What is your understanding of 'eternal annihilation'? How does it square with or differ from such terms as extinction, obliteration, non-existence?

#2. If eternal punishment is a bigger lie, what has been your own argument all this while?

#3. I'll re-direct the issue of the Trinity to its appropriate thread, and then offer my questions to you consequently.

@ Shahan

@Bobbyaf,

I would've loved to oblige you your challenge; but would rather let it rest for now on just one question:

If we have to pander to your persuasion otherwise of the phrase meaning "from ages unto the ages", then this is how Revelation 20:10 will read ~~ they "shall be tormented day and night from ages unto the ages" Now, how long is the time period "from ages unto the ages" that the torment would last?

The length of the period will be determined by the length of the punishment that each individual will experience. As Jesus alluded to that some will be beaten by many stripes, while others by a few stripes. That is why I am concluding that the phrase "forever and ever" was never meant to be seen as an eternal torment for the wicked.

Let me give you an example as to how mis-translations, and mis-punctuations can pose serious problems with regards to how one understands what is being communicated, and especially if we confine ourselves to the KJV, or others.

In Luke 23:43 we read: 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

From the above it seems to suggest that the very same day the thief went to paradise, doesn't it? The problem lies with how the translators punctuated the sentences.

As you might be aware the original writings of the NT had no punctuation marks. Most phrases, expressions be they idiomatic, or literal, and words ran alongside each other without any separation. Punctuation and versing techniques entered the original texts or manuscripts very much later on.

Now lets take a look at the above verse re-stated without punctuation marks. 43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It is believed that those persons who later punctuated the NT texts in some instances, displayed their biases towards their particular beliefs, leading to the now erroneous belief that as soon as a christian dies he goes to heaven, and that the wicked goes to hell upn death. One only needs to attend the funeral sessions of most preachers in certain denoms and you'll see the point being made.

The phrase should be like this in keeping with what is known to take place after death. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

In other words Jesus was simply saying that " I am telling you this day, today, that you will be with me in paradise. We all know that Jesus didn't go to heaven until after He was resurrected, which was on the third day of His death.

This is just one of the reasons why we need to bear in mind these sorts of nuances that present themselves from time to time. We cannot take for granted that because its a famous version of the bible that all is good and dandy.

The same mistake was made with the translation "forever and ever" It was made out to be something it was never meant to be.

@Bobbyaf,

Appreciate yous again, and here are my concerns:

Bobbyaf:

The length of the period will be determined by the length of the punishment that each individual will experience. As Jesus alluded to that some will be beaten by many stripes, while others by a few stripes. That is why I am concluding that the phrase "forever and ever" was never meant to be seen as an eternal torment for the wicked.

Right. When you carefully read that text in Luke 12:47-48, would you apply that to the judgement that takes place "for ever and ever" in Rev. 20:10? Are Satan and his rebels to be 'beaten' with few or many stripes in contrast to what the Lord meant by the judgement where people shall be cast into the place 'prepared for the devil and his angels' (Matt. 25:41)?

Bobbyaf:

Let me give you an example as to how mis-translations, and mis-punctuations can pose serious problems with regards to how one understands what is being communicated, and especially if we confine ourselves to the KJV, or others.

In Luke 23:43 we read: 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

From the above it seems to suggest that the very same day the thief went to paradise, doesn't it? The problem lies with how the translators punctuated the sentences.

As you might be aware the original writings of the NT had no punctuation marks. Most phrases, expressions be they idiomatic, or literal, and words ran alongside each other without any separation. Punctuation and versing techniques entered the original texts or manuscripts very much later on.

Now lets take a look at the above verse re-stated without punctuation marks. 43 And Jesus said unto him Verily I say unto thee Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It is believed that those persons who later punctuated the NT texts in some instances, displayed their biases towards their particular beliefs, leading to the now erroneous belief that as soon as a christian dies he goes to heaven, and that the wicked goes to hell upn death. One only needs to attend the funeral sessions of most preachers in certain denoms and you'll see the point being made.

The phrase should be like this in keeping with what is known to take place after death. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

And how does your own biased punctuated translation reflect the actual sense of what the Lord meant? Let us assume that the contruct stands as you offered: does it sound intelligent enough to polish your own idea? Absolutely not.

Any honest treatment of that verse has to be that the Lord meant it as 'Today shalt thou be with me in paradise'; rather than the other way round, "Today, verily I say unto thee. ." He meant that the event would take place that very day; rather than that He was speaking on that day. He was emphasizing the event rather than His speech. Three reasons strengthen this clearly:

#1. the thief knew that he was being spoken to that very day, and not on another day; so the emphatic word 'Today' applies to the last clause of the sentence, and not to the preceding clause.

#2. when you read the same word 'Today' (or, 'to day') in the Gospel of Luke, you'll see how the Lord used it in reference to His activity, rather than merely to His speaking.

Luke 13:32 - "And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected.

Luke 19:5 - "And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up, and saw him, and said unto him, Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for to day I must abide at thy house."

#3. whenever the Lord wanted to emphasis anything in His speech by the clause "Verily I say unto thee," He most often did not add the word "Today". Why would Luke 23:43 be give a different and far-feteched rule of Greek grammar as in your supposed interpretation? If the Lord made reference to a distant date with regards to issues of the future, He stated it clearly in unmistakable terms:

Luke 10:12 - "But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city."

Matt. 19:28 - "And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Matt. 26:34 - "Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice."

The underlined clauses indicate that the connection of the time/period was to the events in the Lord's speech.

Bobbyaf:

In other words Jesus was simply saying that " I am telling you this day, today, that you will be with me in paradise.

Hardly the sense at all, as shown above. Remove the punctuations and see your own bias - the very same bias you decried in the translations of the Bible.

Just to amuse us a little, let me reference several of them here from those who have a deeper grasp of the Greek construct than you and I could claim here on the internet (please notice the punctuations):

(A[/b]nalytical [b]L[/b]iteral [b]T[/b]ranslation) - And Jesus said to him, "Positively, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

(Amplified) - "And He answered him, Truly I tell you[b], today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

(C[/b]ontemporary [b]E[/b]nglish [b]V[/b]ersion) - Jesus replied, "I promise that today you will be with me in paradise."

(Darby) - And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee[b], To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

(D[/b]ouay [b]R[/b]heims) - And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

(Holman Christian Standard Bible, [b]HCSB) - 'And He said to him, "I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise"'

(Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, LITV) - And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to you[b],[/b] Today you will be with Me in Paradise.

(NET) - "And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

(YLT) - "and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.' "

Bobbyaf:

We all know that Jesus didn't go to heaven until after He was resurrected, which was on the third day of His death.

That does not take away from the fact of the statement Jesus made to the penitent man on the Cross in Luke 23:34. Besides, the paradise spoken of in that verse does not exactly represent the very same place where Jesus later ascended and was glorified. He ascended into heaven, no doubt; but where exactly do you suppose that pointed to?

Bobbyaf:

This is just one of the reasons why we need to bear in mind these sorts of nuances that present themselves from time to time. We cannot take for granted that because its a famous version of the bible that all is good and dandy.

It does not appear that you have carefully examined the 'nuances' and applied them. But I agree with you that Biblical truth is not conveyed on the premise that a particular version is acclaimed to be famous or popular.

Bobbyaf:

The same mistake was made with the translation "forever and ever" It was made out to be something it was never meant to be.

And my question hasn't been answered until now. Here again:

If we have to pander to your persuasion otherwise of the phrase meaning "from ages unto the ages", then this is how Revelation 20:10 will read ~~ they "shall be tormented day and night from ages unto the ages" Now, how long is the time period "from ages unto the ages" that the torment would last?

@Shahan.

The quotes that you responded to were ment 4 TV01 . But we could have an indept discussion on any of them that you chose.

I brought it to your notice that

1 The consequence of disobidience as stated by God from creation was death, never was it burning in Fire.

2 Ancient cities that were destroyed and that were never rebuilt were spoken of as burning in fire that will not be extinguished forever and ever eg Isaiah 34: 10 says that of Edom. Other cities had the same pronouncement. So did Sodom and Gomorrah

3 Jesus and the bible likened dead people to sleep. It is an unconscious state.

4 No part of Man survives his death. Man does not have a soul that survives death. This will render the resurrection which is the basis of the christian hope void.


Il come back and post scriptures that should clarify you on what thee Soul and the spirit means