benzion72:

@Kobojunkie why can't nigeria refineries work. Is PMS the only product coming from crude oil. Nigeria export 2Million barrel of crude everyday how much does that amount to @115/barrel multiply that by 365days. How did subsidy rose from 300Billion with GEJ to 1.3Trillion naira . Despite this huge revenue I am a local government I pay for generator, I pay for mai ruwa and I still load sand in a sack to fill my roads and change shork absorber every six month friends all na corruption and in efficiency

OK . . . . Now these are questions you are better off directing at your Government, dude!!!

seunlayi:

in this case, their is no winner or loser if the price of fuel is returned to 65. But we should be ready to return to the era of fuel scarcity as govt will want to reduce the rate of import of the product, most of the marketers will loose their right to import the product which were given to them to ease fuel scarcity (least we have forgotten) then.  In addition to these, marketers will now form the habit of hoarding and reckless pricing of the product in view that the subsidy will certainly be removed at a certain date. Therefore, be ready to queue to get your petrol.

WORD!

@ Seyi42K,

That is good policy by China's Govt. Note here they are trying to subsidize production. This allow for china's industrial growth and more jobs. On the contrary, we are subsiding consumption which help to grow other countries' economies since we demand more and more everyday.

No one can ever invest in refinery in Nigeria the way it is now. But with complete subsidy removal, over 20 refineries would possibly come in.This is about jobs creation

Mayflowa:

No one can ever invest in refinery in Nigeria the way it is now. But with complete subsidy removal, over 20 refineries would possibly come in.This is about jobs creation

I don't believe this to be true. Nothing stops companies from currently investing in Nigerian refineries, even with subsidy intact. There are so many examples of other countries with similar subsidy programs that do not lack investors in refineries.

We need to stop creating this myth that nothing can happen in Nigeria unless we cut off one more arm or give away our kidney. Even mexico, with a subsidy program gets investors.

Lasinoh:

I vote against.
Nigerians stop borrowing. OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE A LOT TO SHOW FOR THEIR DEBTS. . . WHAT DO YOU HAVE?
You have nothing to show for your borrow-borrow. . . GHANA IS SURVIVING. . .YOU LAZY DRONES CAN TOO!

NO ALLOWANCES FOR GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS. Let them use their own personal vehicles/homes for a change. Or put them in living furnished quarters.  Basic allowance should be no less than 1million Naira a month for ALL politicians. . . INCLUDING JONATHAN GOODLUCK HIMSELF.
You had oil subsidy. . .you did not use it wisely. You allowed your lootocrats to steal all the so-called subsidy.

Jonathan Goodluck is not responsible. THE IMF HAS REFUSED TO GRANT NIGERIA ANY MORE LOANS!!!

Learn to live within your means.
Next time concentrate on triming the allowances of your execu-thieves!
Next time, stay away from gay-marriages and stop being the #1 violators of human rights.

HA! No more loans for your lazy behinds!
The masses would be forced to turn against the lootocrats.
May all their houses be burned down!

If you were not a fool, you would know that Nigeria was not going to IMF until GEJ came in and re-started borrowing, first after clearing N14bln in the excess crude account left by Yar'Adua, then as if that wasnt enough, going cap in hand to IMF to restart a borrowing regime. . . . all in the effort to buy the Governors and others for election. Any debt we are witnessing now is simply a result of Retardeens lust for power.

According to former American Ambassador to Nigeria, Nigeria can easily afford subsidy. What they cant afford is the waste and corruption in Govt which GEJ has shown no inclination or backbone to tackle.

Nobody talked of loan when Yar'Adua was producing 800,000 barrells per day 2 years ago. Now Nigeria is producing 2m and its still not enough for the ravenous GEJ who goes to borrow ontop. If you follow the money, it is clear that GEJ has bribed Nigeria dry. When I spoke of his record-breaking waste as Governor of Bayelsa, some well-known retardeens on this site were quick to call me all sorts of names, but the exact same scenario is playing out with Nigeria. A leopard cannot change its spots. This "debt" issue is an issue entirely precipitated by the man in charge.

I don't believe this to be true. Nothing stops companies from currently investing in Nigerian refineries, even with subsidy intact. There are so many examples of other countries with similar subsidy programs that do not lack investors in refineries.

We need to stop creating this myth that nothing can happen in Nigeria unless we cut off one more arm or give away our kidney. Even mexico, with a subsidy program gets investors.

Nigeria is so complex Kobo. Do you know the amount of courage this has taken from GEJ? No Nigerian trust Govt policies let alone an investor be it local or international firm. $4billion dollars alone is needed to process 200,000barrel/day consumption and Nigerians consumes over 35million barrel/day( We all know this consumption is not real but your Govt pays for it). So who would give it hard earned cash for this? Can you? when there is an attractive option to just seat at home and import with huge benefit!

In Mexico, Govt is trusted and there is hardly any change in govt policies once drafted. So there is confidence to invest.

Where is Musiwa? We need satellite to give us a guide as to either subsidy is good or not

Am really disappointed with the quality of debate in Nigeria. The government people organized or 'paid' for a town hall meeting which failed to frame the issues properly. What I would want to see is people folding up their sleeves with blank sheet of paper to put all the issues in context. We have hit at the issues but have failed to properly quantify them. Let me list a few of the issues that are at play here.

Value of the Nigeria- CBN sole controller of dollar earnings (monopoly?). Unless we get a handle, prices will keep going up in Naira terms.
PIB not passed to provide the legal infrastucture for deregulation
High cost of running government - salaries, numbers, allowances, travels
General wastages and duplication in government - High no of Cars,
Bureaucracy and curruption
debottlenecking Atlas cove discharge point
TAM for refineries - previous ones achieved little, why has it taken govt 2 years to call the firm that built refineries?
Why have more refineries not been built? Niger republic just built one. Do we really need to build now or to maintain?
The cabal who have falsified fuel imports why have they not been brought to their knees and the monies recovered?
Why was 1.3 trillion spent? Who approved the expenditure? Who budgeted for it?

I am of the opinion that certain issues need to be fully exhausted and they have been glossed over as usual. Based on all of these, I am in support of reverting to N65/litre and all these issues sorted within 2 months. People (ministers, public servants, may face sack or go to jail, so be it)

Mayflowa:

Nigeria is so complex Kobo. Do you know the amount of courage this has taken from GEJ? No Nigerian trust Govt policies let alone an investor be it local or international firm. $4billion dollars alone is needed to process 200,000barrel/day consumption and Nigerians consumes over 35million barrel/day( We all know this consumption is not real but your Govt pays for it). So who would give it hard earned cash for this? Can you? when there is an attractive option to just seat at home and import with huge benefit!

In Mexico, Govt is trusted and there is hardly any change in govt policies once drafted. So there is confidence to invest.

I am sorry but that notion that Nigeria is  so complex, is another ridiculous myth. Nigeria is simply a Nation corroded by corruption, and we are yet to make up our minds as to whether we want now to tackle the problem head on or let it sit a bit longer. Nothing complex about that and nothing COMPLICATED when it comes to searching out solutions to solve the problem.

An example if the "Ghost Workers" problem we had for years. Year after year, administration after administration, announced that there were thousands of ghost workers in the system but none rarely did much about it. At the end, it was a simple solution that worked that issue out, at least in the police force. I bet You were not told that the solution was implemented and in less than a month, results were seen, but that is most likely what happened. Now, here's the kicker . . the same simple solution is yet to be applied across other government agencies? Why? Probably because people are not ready for it to be.

Again, let's stop creating these ridiculous myths to pacify ourselves and provide more reasons why the STATUS QUO must be allowed to continue longer, worse, at the detriment of the people.

I don't need to know how much courage a President applies or does not in any given case. He is the President darn it!!! If he needs my encouragement in order for him to get to work, then he is not meant to be President and you and I should work to get rid of him. It is NOT YOUR PLACE, or any other person's to make excuses for those in Government -- excuses for why it is OK that they are not delivering results, even after 90 days of being in Government.

It is funny how you had to tell a LIE there in order so you could continue spewing the silly lines. In what mexico is the Government trusted? The same Mexico I know of? The same Mexico where corruption levels are ranked about the same as Nigeria's, that Mexico? I actually feel INSULTED that you even felt to sell that to me. WOW!!

@ipio: U have reacted so immaturely. why do u have to be abusing beaf cos he stated his objectiv opinion? we can now see who is silly btw u two.

@Seunlayi

n this case, their is no winner or loser if the price of fuel is returned to 65. But we should be ready to return to the era of fuel scarcity as govt will want to reduce the rate of import of the product, most of the marketers will loose their right to import the product which were given to them to ease fuel scarcity (least we have forgotten) then.  In addition to these, marketers will now form the habit of hoarding and reckless pricing of the product in view that the subsidy will certainly be removed at a certain date. Therefore, be ready to queue to get your petrol.

Brother,
All the above-stated ARE NOT CAUSED BY FUEL SUBSIDY NOW?
Seem more like BLACKMAIL and FEAR-MONGERING, to me!

If you doubt it, l will take them one after another!

Fuel scarcity

1.) is a cumulative effect of corruption, which prevents our own local refineries from working to full capacity because some "Govt Official" has pocketed the TAM (Turn Around Maintenance) money meant for its repair! It could also be as a result of deliberate Sabotage by agents of those who benefit from importation of fuel!

2.)Lack of Vision of our Presidents: Like Jonathan, most of our Leaders lack vision and foresight, they should have at least been able to forsee that a nation where all the Electricity Power Stations are comatose, will ultimately depend on fossil fuel like PMS (petrol), to power itself. As such, they could at least have made a deliberate policy of building ONE Refinery every TWO years

Dont tell me we dont have MONEY to do so!
Let me joggle your memory a bit: First Gulf War Oil Windfall, where is it (Babangida, 2.8Billion Dollars!). Second gulf War Windfall (Abacha took that one), Iraq War (Obasanjo Took that one), Excess Crude Oil account windfall (Jonathan shared with his Governors $23Billion).
So brother, Money is not our problem, having the "sense" on what to spend it on is our leaders nightmare!

3.) Corruption by Govt officials: From the NNPC staff who signs-of on inflated/ empty "subsidized fuel import Invoice", to GEJ's Cabals that built refinery in Gambia and other Smaller West African Countries with our looted treasury, while smuggling/bunkering  our crude oil for refinement there and then import it back to Nigeria for selling to us at "subsidized price", to the Minister who gets a "Percentage" of all these economic sabotage of our Nation, they are all in it together. Only a decisive "Head-hunt" of these people (a la Rawling style), can save us from them.

We can also lump all those useless NASS members who are a burden to our national purse into these category. Its all corruption or how do you explain that one man earns 54Million Naira EVERY MONTH, just for sitting idly at the National Assembly, in a country where some cant get 200naira for daily food?
I just wonder why those that have the means (Boko Haram), dont have the brains to know where to put these bombs?

If we can deal with just the three examples l gave above, we will be okay now, dont you think?
Just imagine if Jonathan has decided to pay for and build 4 New Refineries (at $2.3Billion each => $9.2Billion) and share the remaining $13.8Billion with his Governors, are we going to be crying over subsidy removal when we know that we would soon be refining everything locally? But Hell NO, his greed is that of "A Man who had no Shoes while he was growing Up"!

Lets be honest, it is very unfair to those poor women and children who have to trek 10kilometers every day just because they can afford transport fare or that 3Months old baby whose skin will now turn to a haven for skin lessions just because "daddy can no longer afford to buy fuel in his Generator! Have you ever heard a baby crying at 2pm in the afternoon due to "excessive heat"? (No Nepa, No fuel for Generator! )

Try listen to that cry and you will develop the fear of God and a deep hatred for those who entrench such evil.

Look, there is so much "waste and looting in Nigeria" that foreigners wonder when they see Nigerians enduring "second-class citizenship" abroad, in poorer countries!

When it was 75K/Liter and there was subsidy in place , we had fuel scarcity, but when it was 65naira and there was subsidy in place, there was no fuel scarcity! So you see, its not about pricing of the product per se.

Cheers.

Lastpage

@Mayflowa

$4billion dollars alone is needed to process 200,000barrel/day consumption and Nigerians consumes over 35million barrel/day( We all know this consumption is not real but your Govt pays for it).

Brother, small-small naah!

When a "Brand New" 450,000B/day capacity Refinery costs $2.3billion to build, how can it now cost $4Billion just to "refine" 200,000Barrels/Day?

Or are you talking about the cost of the crude oil itself?
If that is your case, then you should also add the amount of revenue that the sale of 200,000Barrels of REFINED CRUDE will generate (please include price of all the other "condensate" like Diesel, Kerosine, PVC, Ethanol, e.t.c as well)

Anyway, your post was very misleading.

Cheers.

Lastpage!

@ Kobo.
 Mexico is not better off than Nigeria in terms of the subsidy policy they both tow. Nigeria is corrupt so is Mexico. They do have better production than us and also prouction of crude oil/head is  way way way larger than Nigeria. Yet they are still condenm for this obnoxious policy of subsidy because jobs are drying up everyday in their oil industries and even local production is going down. see below



link:  
http://www.banderasnews.com/0805/edat-mexgamble.htm





Mexico Takes Economic Gamble to Keep Fuel Cheap
Michael O'Boyle & Noel Randewich - Reuters
go to original



Thousands of Mexicans took to the streets of Mexico City late last month to protest an oil reform bill they say would lead to the privatization of the country's state-run oil company. Led by opposition lawmaker Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, the demonstrators expressed their displeasure with plans to look for private capital to help fund the expansion of Pemex, Mexico's national oil company. (Real News Network)
 
Mexico City - A $19 billion fuel subsidy, meant to shield Mexicans from spiraling world oil prices, could swallow a chunk of Mexico's precious crude oil export windfall revenue this year, and may only delay an inflation spike.

The subsidy, which means Mexicans are paying $1.40 less for a gallon of gasoline than U.S. motorists, was trumpeted by President Felipe Calderon this week as one of a package of measures to curb surging inflation.

The Mexican government has long subsidized gasoline, along with diesel and cooking gas, but this year the program could cost four times as much as in 2007, after a leap in the cost of the gasoline Mexico imports to cover a refining shortfall.

Mexico, via state monopoly Pemex, is the world's No. 6 oil producer and a top supplier of crude oil to the United States.

But critics say the government is squandering profits from high crude prices just when it should be spending them on projects like roads, schools, refineries and oil platforms -- all things that would boost economic growth.

The money earmarked for fuel subsidies this year is more than what Mexico spends annually on education.

Wall Street analysts would also like to see Mexico reinvest more of its oil profits in exploration to reverse a decline in oil reserves and bolster sagging production. A dip in Mexico's oil exports is already putting pressure on the federal budget.

"The consumer's happiness today will come at the extraordinary price of lower proven oil reserves and lower oil production and fiscal income in the future," Goldman Sachs economist Paulo Leme wrote in a report this week.

The government's years-old practice of subsidizing gasoline has left Mexicans cushioned from surging prices. Drivers in the United States are paying nearly $4 a gallon for gasoline, compared to $2.61 a gallon in Mexico.

"I've been filling my tank here in Mexico for the past three weeks. I save a few dollars," said Texas resident Joel Lopez, standing by his pickup truck at a Pemex service station in Nuevo Laredo, just across from the U.S. border.

Mexican motorists may be happy, but the ballooning fuel subsidy will only be effective at controlling inflation if the current spike in oil prices proves temporary, said BBVA economist Fernando Gonzalez.

"If international prices don't come down, we'll have to seriously evaluate this policy," Gonzalez said.

UNSUSTAINABLE SUBSIDY

Mexico, which imports 40 percent of its gasoline, has for years subsidized prices at the pump by paying Pemex the difference between pump prices and what it pays for imports.

At the same time, the government typically fixes an unrealistically low oil export price in its budget, then sinks most above-forecast revenues into infrastructure. It set an oil price of $49 per barrel for 2008, but Mexican oil is now selling at a heady $110, implying a fat windfall.

Yet much of that windfall is being gobbled up by the fuel subsidy. State income from Pemex fell some $800 million short of budget forecasts in the first quarter due to lower oil export volumes, a strong peso, and higher subsidy costs, Deputy Finance Minister Alejandro Werner said this week.

"Sooner or later this subsidy will become unsustainable," veteran columnist Sergio Sarmiento wrote in the daily Reforma.

He accused Calderon of pandering to voters ahead of a mid-term Congressional election next year.

Calderon is pushing hard for an oil sector overhaul that could enable the private sector to invest more in Mexico and build new refineries, easing Mexico's dependence on costly imports and allaying the need to subsidize fuel.

But opposition parties oppose loosening barriers to private participation and want to water down the reform proposal.

Meanwhile, Mexican inflation is at a three-year high of 4.83 percent, pushed up by skyrocketing world prices for oil and staple foods as demand from developing nations grows.

Economists who see no near end to high oil prices say Mexico cannot afford to pour oil dollars into fuel subsidies indefinitely, and is only postponing inflationary pressure.

"The longer it waits, the harder and more costly it will be," Leme at Goldman Sachs wrote.

($1 = 10.34 pesos)

(Additional reporting by Jason Lange in Mexico City and Magdiel Hernandez in Nuevo Laredo; editing by Clive McKeef)

Mayflowa:

@ Kobo.
 Mexico is not better off than Nigeria in terms of the subsidy policy they both tow. Nigeria is corrupt so is Mexico. They do have better production than us and also prouction of crude oil/head is  way way way larger than Nigeria. Yet they are still condenm for this obnoxious policy of subsidy because jobs are drying up everyday in their oil industries and even local production is going down. see below

I think you are mistaken my post for yours. Did someone refuse to READ

Kobojunkie:

We need to stop creating this myth that nothing can happen in Nigeria unless we cut off one more arm or give away our kidney. Even mexico, with a subsidy program gets investors.

That is what I posted on Mexico before you came back to try to tell us that Mexico is much better than NIgeria when you posted the line before.

Mayflowa:

In Mexico, Govt is trusted and there is hardly any change in govt policies once drafted. So there is confidence to invest.

There is really no need for you to try to drag this discussion where it ought not to go. The simple FACT is that other countries with subsidy programs are STILL able, even with subsidy intact, to draw in investors, so please stop LYING that our subsidy program plays some role in keeping the investors away. That is a LIE and CANNOT be connected in any way to the subsidy issue.

Do the 76% understands the s.hit the country is in?

^^ Do they understand the shi**t that fell on the country out of the air or the shi**t that your current Government put the country in, by his actions, and approach to tackling corruption? 

^^^^^^No, they dont understand the shyte that we are in!

The only shyte they understand is that GEJ looted $23Billion from the Excess Crude Account, money that he could have used to build New Refineries, New Roads, New Hospitals and even institute Social Services for the Aged and the needy, except that the money is cooling-off in their various foreign accounts!

I guess these 76% dont know shyte but they sure know a treasury looter and untrustworthy felon, when they see one (especially if he dons a canoe on his head )

Cheers,

Lastpage!

The fuel deregulation policy will only achieve its aims and objectives of re-investing the proceeds into building infrastructures for Nigeria if the following are looked into.Without that,i do not think FG means well or are sincere and if they are sincere,they still do not know their actual problems.

1. Failed projects should be reviewed with a view to ascertaining what led to their failures i.e if it was due to corrupt practises on the side of the government or contractor, they should be brought to book to serve as deterrent to others in future projects.If it was due to bad frame work,then there needs to be a new frame work for awarding government contracts, otherwise we will still be rolling in circles.We were made to understand that there are about 20000 failed government projects.We wonder why all Obasanjo's projects have never seen the light of the day.The list is endless (Refinery turn around, Power projects,railway projects,road projects,water projects)

2. The spending pattern of government during election period should be looked into. Believe it or not, 2015 is around the corner and there is still a proposal Jonathan is selling to the electorate about the single 7 (or 6) year tenure for elected officials,which is all obvious that he wants to be in power for longer than necessary.We all know that a lot of money will definitely change hands during these period of lobbying. We all remember Obasanjo's Ghana must go bags during the third term debacle.This will definitely take a toll on government financed projects.

I have the feelings that these two factors most likely contribute to project failures and if they are not tackled,then nothing for the re-invested subsidy money o.These are the things that government has to look into before making ordinary Nigerians suffer today for a brighter tomorrow as proponents of the subsidy removal have said.

Finally,i want to know if the government have explored other methods of dealing with the corruption in the fuel subsidy programme,like having rigid mechanisms on ground for inspecting and paying oil marketers? It is still the duty of the government of the day to check corruption.I am of the view that government should not chicken out of its programmes because of corruption.Otherwise,they may not get anything done in future as all humans have the tendency to be corrupt,but checks put in place by authorities are binding.I fear there would be a time when government will say they will deregulate health care and education because they cannot fight the corruption in there.I think its just weak of a leadership to admit that they are not capable of fighting corruption.

Some people will still have sense till they die. How long will we continue to be fooled,they Ve no plans to do anything for Nigeria, they re just after filling their pocket and bank accounts.they shld return the subsidy till we see a reasonble development first.

no

The federal government has its real reason for removing subsidy at this stage when they can actually borrow i.e if not available to fix our refinieries to meet local consumption.
What makes u feel d price of pms will go back to N65 or maybe N35 if our refineries start working at full capacity?
What makes u feel any investor will come and build a refinery in nigeria to sell at N65 wen d actual cost of refining pms per liter is about N106 (international price).He would be at a loss
All we are saying is that govt should cut down on its spendings,fix our 4 refineries to work at 100%,then remove subsidy.
Money from subsidy removal can den be used for other infrastructural developments.

PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT THE REMOVAL OF SUBSIDY ARE ACTUALLY MORE ON THIS PARTICULAR THREAD PLEASE COUNT FOR YOURSELF NOW AS AT PAGE 5, AT 11: 55 am, TODAY MORE THAN THOSE WHO ARE NOT IN SOPPORT OF THE REMOVAL OF FUEL SUBSIDY,HOW DO THEY ARRIVE AT 24 PER CENT? DOES THIS FIGURE ACTUALLY REPRESENT THE TRUE STATE OF NIGERIAN? AND WHAT IS NOTEWORTHY IS THAT THOSE THAT ARE AGAINST THE REMOVAL ARE SHYING AWAY FROM QUESTION OR MAKE DIRECT INSULT FIRST AND ABANDON THE QUESTION,THAT SHOWS WEAKNESS ON THEIR PART, CAN ANYONE PLS OBSERVE UP TILL THIS PAGE WHO IS MORE? I THINK THOSE WHO ARE IN SUPPORT HAVE CONSTRUCTIVE AND FOCUSED POINTS,BUT THOSE AGAINST SAY THE SAME THING OVER AND OVER ''THE TRUST'',THEN WHY NOT EDUCATE THEM RATHER THAN REMAINING MYOPIC OR SHORT OF IDEAS,MAJORITY OF MOST PEOPLE THAT VOTED AGAINST I THING NEEDED SOME EDUCATION

Beaf is a criminal and should be stoned to death naked

A female corper who studied MASS COMM or BUSINESS ADMIN who is in Abuja should contact this email : funkeenenuchidera@hotmail.co.uk

I want this shït forever!

@Beaf.
I have monitored your comments with utter dismay and your position on national issues.
I don,t think you are a Nigerian and would not believe you are reasonable.
76% of Nigerians are selfish and you are the only selfless person.
You must be a stooge of your masters sent go Nigeria to poison our minds.
Its unfortunately we have people like you.

reverting to 65 naira maybe politically correct but will amount to government committing economic harakiri,a compromise arrangement of 100 naira per litre will do in the short term while government put the pallliatives in place

Yesterday is a cancelled cheque, future is a promissory note and today is the only cash we have then we must spend it wisely, we want the fuel subsidy back.

[size=30pt]PLEASE BECOS OF THIS GREEDY POLITICIANS PLEASE PUT OIL @ 100 PER LITRE ME AS I dey AM HERE I AM DYING ,i dont want to a thief overnight PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE, [/size]

Please they should reverse back to N65 per liter. If they want to raise money for infrastructure development, let them cut down the size of government and also cut the salaries and allowances by %50. Anything less than that is unacceptable.

"Insanity is doing the same thing, over and over again, but expecting different results." - Albert Einstein

It's the simple problem with Nigeria.

You don't want to deregulate yet u want refineries "dream on"

You can't unbundle Nepa and pay higher tariffs yet you want constant power supply "wishful thinking"

You should realize by now that it's the entire naija system thats corrupt.

You should know now that gov't can not run any business.

We had a chance and as usual, we blew it.

Good news is that we will be importing from Ghana and Niger in the nearest future. You can't eat your cake and have it. Simple

@beaf u r d only selfish person here. U tlk as if u r been paid by gej 2 canvass 4 supports
Quote from: CarlosVent on Yesterday at 11:15:39 PM
Seconded.

^
Millions of nairaland cant be wrong on the above

I suggest we vote that [size=8pt]is Beaf,Leomax and friends fools and myopic on subsidy removal discussion?[/size]