₦airaland Forum

@Davidylan,

O boi, chill-out, one issue at a time.  You whan us to clarify our faith on issues pertaining confession; ok fine, we clarify am, finish.  After, you whan bring wahala with mother Mary; ok fine, we clarify am, finish.  Now you whan come again, with open mouth and closed head with fire vex on why we pray to holy ones.  Ah ah, Nna mehn, make we relax am small o.

If you want to go into the area of prayers to the saints open a new thread, biko. 

So, it seems like people are clear or have a better understanding on why catholics have the sacrement of confession.  You may not agree with it, but you can't say its not part of scripture.

@~Lady~

You seem to know your stuff.  I commend you, keep up the work.

And I really and strongly believe that you are deliberately trying to be deceitful. You do not address the definition of worship at all, and you know very well what latria, dulia, and hyperdulia are very different, but you refuse to be straightforward with it.

Sadly, I'm starting to get the same feeling.  That's why I made the remark 'You can do better than that' a while back to pilgrim.1 about her knowingly posting the below without evening going into what is meant by 'worship' in the passage.

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, [You]its patroness[/You], with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity.

Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].

@davidylan

. . . the dead have no more portion FOR EVER in anything (including we the living) done under the sun! How then can death not separate us from?

Paul said we shld intercede for one another . . . no where did He tell us to intercede either for or on behalf of the dead.

Go back and read your bible, o jare,

Matt. 17:2-3 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.  And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.

Luke 15:7,10 – I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.

Rev. 8:3-4 – Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.  The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

Is not Jesus conversing with dead people.  My guy, do you think Moses and Elijah had no clue of the conversation they had with Jesus.  Or did they find out about it before or after they came to earth.

Who is it that is experiencing joy in heaven over our repentance?

In heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.  So, these angels and saints have no clue as to what is going on here on earth.  Whose prayers are they sending up to God?

Again O. . . if you were informed at all, you would know that I wasn't lying when I posted the reference that Catholics refer to Mary as "the Glory of Israel" - because that is precisely what she is called in the Catholic common prayer known as "Litany of Loreto" ("Glory of Israel - pray for us ". So, for all the millions of Catholics who have said that prayer, we may go by your assertion and increase the list to millions of Catholic liars, abi?

I would say the title the "Glory of Israel" is ascribed to God and God alone.  I would also say the the title can be ascribed to Mary also, but in a secondary since (infinitely subordinate to God).  As we all know, Mary gave birth to our savior by giving her 'fiat' (latin for 'yes').  In another since she is the mother of the "Glory of Isreal", namely Jesus Christ.  In another since she is the daughter of the "Glory of Israel", namely God the father.  In another since she is the spouse of the "Glory of Israel", God the Holy Spirit.

I guess, I don't really understand your question.  What are the divine titles of God?  Where does one find the divine titles of God?  Which language do we use to determine the divine titles of God (e.g., English, Greek, Latin, Igbo, Yoruba, Edo, etc.)?  What version of the Bible does one use to determine these things (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.)?  

Thanks for that attempt, but sorry - looking up at something is not to be mistaken for HYPERDULIA. And ahem. . . God nowhere said that they looked up to the serpent "for help" - this is your fabu, so please make another believable excuse.

My guy, so what were they doing?  Just stairing at image with there eyes closed?

Worship:

2. Honor; respect; civil deference. [Obs.]

Of which great worth and worship may be won. --Spenser.

Then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. --Luke xiv. 10.

Another thing, lets use the term worship in todays language.  Because you are confusing me.  Are you saying that Catholics worship (todays usage) Mary and the Saints?  The term worship used in the definitions below can only be understood in the broader use of the term (e.g., honor, respect, see above).

-if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
-When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
-As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).source: Catholic Encyclopedia -

DULIA is defined as "our worship of distinguished servants of God" by Catholic encyclopedia. Now, please show us where anyone ever worshipped man, cherubim, or serpent?

Catholics have the same reverence (dulia, hyperdulia) for Mary and Saints as did the Israelites have for the Ark of the Covenent.  The Ark of the Covenant was a sacred object.  They paid it honor and veneration, but did not give it worship (latria) deserving of God alone.

Enyi m (my friend) pilgrim.1,

However, my two unanswered question all along has been this:

A. WHO is the "Glory of Israel" - MARY or GOD?

And if we acknowledge indeed that God alone is properly deserving of that Name, then the following question follows:

B. WHY has the Catholic Church taken the divine titles of God and ascribed them to Mary?

Before we discuss your question above; might I ask, what faith tradition do you follow?  Knowing where you are coming from helps me use terms that you may be familiar with.  Also, I'm no theologian (far from it) so I may not be able to readily find passages/scriptures in discussing said issues.  Further, I just may not be able to answer your questions because I don't know the anwser; at which time, I will say 'I don't know' and try to find the solution.  So, I will ask for you to be patient with me and share some of your insights and knowledge to keep the discussion going.  Also, there may be people of other faith traditions that may have answers to your questions and I urge them to join the discussion. 

As is evident, I love my catholic faith and there is so much stuff/knowledge that I don't know about it.  In addition, I love discussing doctrine, theology, and the saints (things I find wanting in non-catholic christian traditions).  But, before we move on, what faith tradition do you follow?  As they say in Igbo (mee ka anyi tinye isi anyi na ihe ndi a:  Allow us to put our heads together in these issues).

Ekenele m ndi obula (My Greetings to All)

@pilgrim.1

15. Non-Catholics and reformers are therefore mistaken when because of this pretext they find fault with, or disapprove of, our devotion to the Virgin Mother of God, as if it took something from the worship due to God alone and to Jesus Christ. The contrary is true because any honor and veneration which we may give to our Heavenly Mother undoubtedly redounds to the glory of her Divine Son, not only because all graces and all gifts, even the highest, flow from Him as from their primary source, but also because "The glory of children are their fathers" (Book of Proverbs, XVII 6)."

Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].

From that same document you posted, the above quote more articulates the reason why we honor and respect the saints.  As you posted your self:

Perhaps I may have to wait until you offer any of the 3 definitions (latria, dulia and hyperdulia) that Catholics often refer to from the Catholic Encyclopedia

Historically, Catholics have used those terms to describe the different types of Honor given to God and the saints.  The Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship (the saints).  In referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary another term (hyperdulia) was used to describe honor given to her because of her unique role in salvation history; since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All these terms (e.g. latria, hyperdulia, dulia) have come to be described by the English word (old English) weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.  The word worship, today, has a more limited meaning and does not have the same wider usage as in the past.  But there are some instances where it still remains.  For example, in the British legal system they would refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship" and in the American system we use "Your Honor".  What this means is that they are giving the title-holder (e.g., magistrate, judge, politician, etc.) the honor appropriate of their office.  

That document (Fulgens Corona) was first written in latin and translated into English.  At most, what we can say about that document is that the term worship is used in the sense of giving the Virgin Mary the appropriate honor, her ability to fully (100%) follow God's will by giving birth to our savior.  The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English and the term, as is in the document, is not a good translation into the English vernacular of today.  I think the more appropriate word would be 'honor'.  

I warn you, dear Omenuko, it is not my intention to hurt you or rattle your faith: so please leave pilgrim.1 jeje. . . or you may simply invite the very thing you may not want to read at all from your Bishops. Albeit, I shall be patient and hope you don't push your luck.

Why are you warning me?  Have I insulted you or your family.  Lets dialogue about these things, instead of throwing threats and innuendos.  I don't even know what type of Christian you are.  By the way, what faith tradition do you follow?  

Again, let me reiterate what I said before, the catholic Church does not teach the worship (latria) of anyone or anything other than God.  There may be people who improperly elevate Mary and the saints to levels that are improper and unorthodox (nay, anti-biblical), just as you will find in other denominations; when this occurs, the Church strongly comes out against it and condemns the practice.  I'm at work at the moment, so can only post so much at a time.

suricattca:
I'm Catholic. About 90% polish citizens are Catholics. But,  in my opinion i don't need confession. Last time i confessed more than 5 years ago. Real, good Catholics should = must confess 1 per year. If u want, u can go to confession every days. For me, confession in useless b/c u tell ur sins not God, but human/priest.

Confession is not necessary (so long as you are without sin).  But since most of use are sinners confession then becomes a way to make right ourselves with God.  In the catholic Church confession is a sacrament; therefor, it is one way (among many) that God imparts His grace to us.  It allows us to truly know that our sins are forgiven.  It brings a since of peace and reconciliation to those who take advantage of it.  Reflect on this:

"Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven" (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).  John Chrysostom (A catholic saint)

@pilgrim.1,

pilgrim.1:
34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity.

           post #930 observes that -

[list][list][/list][/list]

[list]Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].[/list]


On the whole, I don't think it's fair to assume that plappville was lying. There are well established evidences to show precisely more serious and explicit statements of worhip to Mary from Catholic bishops; so one cannot just dismiss plappville out of hand in such a manner.

Regards.

My friend, you can do better than that.  Let me ask you a question, "so according to your understanding, does the word 'worship' in this context and time mean the same thing as it does today?"  In other words, do you believe that Pope Pius XII is extorting Catholics to give to the Blessed Virgin Mary the worship that should be given only to God?  What is/are the definition of worship.  When was the letter written?  Lets dissect this statement and bring it into context.  I'm sure many people will be surprised. 

Oh by the way, you really seem to have a handle on your bible.  Your knowledge of your faith is most admirable.  You should think about reading books and writings of some of the 'early church fathers' and the lives of the saints.  You'll be surprised as to how they worshiped and conducted their faith.  Many non-Catholics seem to believe that Christianity started after the reformation and have no clue as to the great dept of spirituality and knowledge of the early Christians (all of whom were Catholic).

Umu ibe m,

Omenuko o biara ebe a ugbu a, ana m ekele! Na-asu asusu anyi mgbe nile unu nwe efe/oghere o. O ga diri anyi n'onwe anyi na mma. Asi m ka m tinye aka m n'uka a n'ihi na acho m imata ihe unu n'akpaa.

plappville:
Yes the catholics do worship the image of MARY, i was once a catholic member i know tings there i don't just say what i do not know
even some mumbers do ve their own alter in their home where they do worship everytime.

My guy, what you wrote above is totally against orthodox Catholic doctrine.  The worship of anything or anyone other than God is anti-christian.  If you were Catholic (as you claim to have been once), you would have known that we do not worship the Blessed Virgin Mary.  If you read any Catholic book (e.g. the Catechism, devotionals, prayer books, etc.) what is taught is the worship of God (see below):

"Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

As far as the saints go, we venerate or hold them (of which the Virgin Mary is included) in high regard and ask them to pray with us to God the Father (of course through Jesus Christ).  I'm kind of new to this forum so am still getting used to the features.  

Oh, Ndeewo nu (Greetings),