Ur statement would actually make sense if the Catholics do worship the image of Mary.
Also can you please tell me the difference between Jesus' flesh and a man's flesh? Or Jesus' human form and a man's human form?

Yes the catholics do worship the image of MARY, i was once a catholic member i know tings there i don't just say what i do not know
even some mumbers do ve their own alter in their home where they do worship everytime.
As for Jesus' flesh, it's a are real food for He gives eternal life to all who believe in Him and that of a man it's an ordinary meat will be eaten by dust.

Well then the Bible was wrong in saying "Confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed"
So it's either the Bible is wrong or the Church is wrong which one is it?

When the bible says confess ur sins to one another, this means when u sin against someone u go and confess to him or her by doing this God himself will forgive u ur sin, is not thesame as confessing to the pope, don't add or take away words from the bible.

Well thank God that Catholics believe that God forgives sins. You would do well to know the Bible before you speak. Do not deceive yourself.

Though chatolics may believe that God forgives sins, but they should also know that they sins should be confessed only to God and not man.
I think i am trying to know the bible by what i read in the bible and not what i hear from those false priste, pastors pope etc out there.

plappville:

Yes the catholics do worship the image of MARY, i was once a catholic member i know tings there i don't just say what i do not know
even some mumbers do ve their own alter in their home where they do worship everytime.
As for Jesus' flesh, it's a are real food for He gives eternal life to all who believe in Him and that of a man it's an ordinary meat will be eaten by dust.


When the bible says confess ur sins to one another, this means when u sin against someone u go and confess to him or her by doing this God himself will forgive u ur sin, is not thesame as confessing to the pope, don't add or take away words from the bible.


Though chatolics may believe that God forgives sins, but they should also know that they sins should be confessed only to God and not man.
I think i am trying to know the bible by what i read in the bible and not what i hear from those false priste, pastors pope etc out there. 

Seriously I do not think you were a catholic you would have known better, I once was and there was a popular song we used to sing about honouring Mary and not worshiping, did you ever sing that?

and if you were a good catholic you would have known about the when Jesus appeared to the apostles in the inner room and said peace be unto you, and something about people whose sins they forgive here on earth would be forgiven in heaven, remember?
Feels good to remember those days

Yes the catholics do worship the image of MARY, i was once a catholic member i know tings there i don't just say what i do not know

This statement shows you were never a Catholic, don't come here and lie.

As for Jesus' flesh, it's a are real food for He gives eternal life to all who believe in Him and that of a man it's an ordinary meat will be eaten by dust.

Really, but he was in the image of man, how come his human body can be worshipped and yet a man's human body cannot be worshipped?

Another question though, do you believe that the eucharist is the flesh of Jesus?

When the bible says confess ur sins to one another, this means when u sin against someone u go and confess to him or her by doing this God himself will forgive u ur sin, is not thesame as confessing to the pope, don't add or take away words from the bible.

Hahaha right!!!!

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist). [Matt 3:6 and they were all baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins; Mark 1:5 And all the country of Judea went out to him, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan confessing their sins.]

Is that enough for you? People have been confessing their sins in public as was the practise in the beginning, today it is no longer that way, we confess in private.

Though chatolics may believe that God forgives sins, but they should also know that they sins should be confessed only to God and not man.
I think i am trying to know the bible by what i read in the bible and not what i hear from those false priste, pastors pope etc out there.

Well then you are certainly against what Jesus teaches, because he did send out his apostles and he did tell them, whomever receives you receives me, whomever rejects you rejects me. If we were all meant to read the Bible and get everything from it then there ws no need for the apostles, and if there was no need for the apostles there wouldn't be the Bible today.
People seriously think the Bible was written by Christ himself. Hun the Bible that you have was written and compiled y Catholics, whether you believe or not. The tradition we hang on to is the Bible. Because it came from the tradition handed down by the apostles.

Oh and as for Mary, I AM WILLING TO SCHOOL YOU ON HER ROLE IN OUR SALVATION.

Seriously I do not think you were a catholic you would have known better,  I once was and there was a popular song we used to sing about honouring Mary and not worshiping, did you ever sing that?

and if you were a good catholic you would have known about the when Jesus appeared to the apostles in the inner room and said peace be unto you, and something about people whose sins they forgive here on earth would be forgiven in heaven, remember?
Feels good to remember those days

hehehe you're funny. I'm glad you remember those days. I will continue to pray for you (don't tell me not to cause I won't listen to you)

@kemisuga,

Your thread redirects here from the other one you had opened, so let me just make a few comments thereto:

Is it really good confessing our sins to a father in a church? Some say the father help convey the prayers to God for forgiveness. Or make our confessions to God directly?

Well, look at it this way - we are all learning everyday to see things the way God calls us to see them in His Word. In this regard, there are two ways to confess our sins - (a) directly to God Himself; and (b) to one another (which may include confessing our sins to our spiritual leaders).

[list][list](a) confessing our sins directly to God - Psalm 32:5
"I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid.
I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD;
and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah"[/list][/list]

[list][list](b) confessing to one another - James 5:16
"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another,
that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of
a righteous man availeth much."[/list][/list]

We know when our hearts convict us of sins committed against God. Such sins could actually arise from the way we have treated other people. I am always humbled by the humlity and repentance of King David who did not seek to argue or justify his sin, but said: "I have sinned against the LORD", although it was actually in reference to what he had done against Uriah the Hittite (2 Samuel 12:10-13). God forgave him - as pronounced by prophet Nathan.

We also know when we sin against people and need to remedy sour relationships with them. For instance, if I wronged my neighbour "Saasha", I would go directly to her (or, it may be that she directly confronts me about it), and then would confess my ill-treatment committed against her interests - just as the Lord Jesus Christ pronounced we should do (Matt. 18.15-17).

So, where does confessing our sins to our spiritual leaders come in?

The Catholic Church may have her own tradition in these matters, and it is not for me to go into that just now. However, I believe the Bible shows us that we can confess our sins before our leaders when we need them to pray over very grave matters which we may feel unable to confide to public interest. Leaders are endowed by God, not only with spiritual power, but also with divine authority to help us in such matters - as in James 5:14-15 ~~

[list][list]Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.[/list][/list].

The very next verse 16 then goes on to speak about confessing our sins to one another. However, let us remember that in all matters, only God can forgive sins.

Blessings.

plappville:

Yes the catholics do worship the image of MARY, i was once a catholic member i know tings there i don't just say what i do not know
even some mumbers do ve their own alter in their home where they do worship everytime.

My guy, what you wrote above is totally against orthodox Catholic doctrine.  The worship of anything or anyone other than God is anti-christian.  If you were Catholic (as you claim to have been once), you would have known that we do not worship the Blessed Virgin Mary.  If you read any Catholic book (e.g. the Catechism, devotionals, prayer books, etc.) what is taught is the worship of God (see below):

"Now this is the Catholic faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son's is another, the Holy Spirit's another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal" (Athanasian Creed: DS 75; ND 16).

As far as the saints go, we venerate or hold them (of which the Virgin Mary is included) in high regard and ask them to pray with us to God the Father (of course through Jesus Christ).  I'm kind of new to this forum so am still getting used to the features.  

Oh, Ndeewo nu (Greetings),

@lady
It would be great lol

@~Lady~,

~Lady~:

Yes the catholics do worship the image of MARY, i was once a catholic member i know tings there i don't just say what i do not know

This statement shows you were never a Catholic, don't come here and lie.

I don't think it's fair to assume that plappville was lying. We've been through this discussion before in the other thread where I demonstrated this very issue to show that Catholics (or should I say "some Catholics" actually worship the image of Mary. Infact, there are several places where this fact is decried by the many Catholic faithfuls with whom I had that discussion - a very heated debate infact - and at the end of the day when the facts were posted, it went all quiet with no counter claims to provide a contrary evidence. See the following:

          post #185
          hayo's comment on post #191
          ebo's reiteration on post #197
          alliednewt berating A.K.O
           

It took quite a long while before I started posting evidence of the fact of Mariolatry - the worship of Mary by some Catholics, after having given enough space for our Catholics friends on the Forum to deny any tendencies of such. Here are some, beginning from here:

           post #666 - #670
           post #672 & #673
           post #708
           
           are these pictures real?

           brent's observations @ post #841
           

After much patience, it was not until after over 300 entries that I finally posted a sample of the evidence I had often asked Catholics to clarify:

           post #930 observes that -

[list][list]

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity.

[/list][/list]

[list]Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].[/list]


On the whole, I don't think it's fair to assume that plappville was lying. There are well established evidences to show precisely more serious and explicit statements of worhip to Mary from Catholic bishops; so one cannot just dismiss plappville out of hand in such a manner.

Regards.

plappville:

even some mumbers do ve their own alter in their home where they do worship everytime.

It's also done in the open with other shrines and images of devotion ~-

Chei nne pilgrim I only said what I am "telled" when I is goes for catchesim oh, I know of many different factions in the catholic church that take it too far, one woman I used to know built her own marian village she wore close to 100 rosaries of different froms on her body and even had followers she claimed to have healed in the name of Mary. When the church discovered her she was excommunicated.
But I still dey wonder for you sha how you take dey get time to create all those hyper links, infact I an begining to suspect that you are a Nasa creation, prove me wrong or I go begin worship you now now

Omenuko) As far as the saints go, we venerate or hold them (of which the Virgin Mary is included) in high regard and ask them to pray with us to God the Father (of course through Jesus Christ).  I'm kind of new to this forum so am still getting used to the features.  

Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of a our death. ) Did Jesus have made mentioned that his mother is the mother of God

I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. And in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,

Jesus is the only son of God and mary is the mother of Jesus, then why u say Mary is the mother of God??

Hail Holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To you do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to you do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, your eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.

All these praises goes to MARY , ("Teach us how to pray," the disciples said to Jesus. (Luke 11, 1) He answered by teaching them the prayer we call "the Our Father"  or "The Lord's Prayer." he didn't mention his mother's name in this prayer so why then does Catholic seems to worship the mother more than the Son who is sent by God almighty  The Lord's Prayer is a basic Christian prayer every Christian learns it by heart, It 's a prayer Christians treasure.

here is the lords prayer
Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
Forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

JESUS WOULD HAVE MADE US KNOW THAT THROUGH HIS MOTHER WE CAN GET TO GOD .

Well then you are certainly against what Jesus teaches, because he did send out his apostles and he did tell them, whomever receives you receives me, whomever rejects you rejects me. If we were all meant to read the Bible and get everything from it then there ws no need for the apostles, and if there was no need for the apostles there wouldn't be the Bible today.

According to the Lord Jesus, there are "MANY" false prophets in our present day that will "deceive MANY people" (Mt. 24:11). Though these false prophets might claim to know and communicate God's truth, they are spreading lies (Jer. 14:14).
According to the loving Lord Jesus, false prophets are really hungry, dangerous, ferocious wolves dressed in sheep's clothing (Mt. 7:15).
Hence, they can be as spiritually deadly and dangerous to Christians (sheep -- Jn. 10:27) as a concealed, savage wolf is among a flock of sheep!!!!!
False prophets can be known by their "fruit" (Mt. 7:16), not their personal claims or "gifts." In fact, some false prophets can even produce miraculous signs (Mk. 13:22; Rev. 19:20) and accurately predict an event (Deut. 13:1-4). JESUS THAUGHT US TO BE CAREFUL OF THEM.

THE BOOK OF Philippians 4:6 says Becareful for nothing but in everything, let ur request be made known unto (God) I am lead by the word of God through his only son Jesus christ and not by FAKE DOCTRIMS. MAY GOD'S WORD REMAINS BLESS AMEN.




Dieu est mon pouvoir.

@plapville
O girl do oh, I just wan point out something wey dey confuse me for wetin you talk.
1) you say Jesus is God( the son)
2) you say mary is the mother of Jesus, who is God ( the son)
3) then what confusing about mary being the mother of God( the son)

O girl do oh, I just wan point out something wey dey confuse me for wetin you talk.
1) you say Jesus is God( the son)
2) you say mary is the mother of Jesus, who is God ( the son)
3) then what confusing about mary being the mother of God( the son)

I did said Jesus is the son of God, and MARY is the mother of Jesus, that does not means Mary is the mother of God like the catholics are taking it to be.
The New Testament tells us when Jesus is baptized by John, a voice taken to be that of God announces: "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased." ( Jesus was born to earth Christians, Jesus is the Son of God in such a way that he continues to be seen as human and fully divine. (Philippians 2:7). We believe in the incarnation of the Son of God. .) AM I CLEAR TO YOU?

You are ore than confusing my sister I thought Mary gave birth to jesus or do I have bollocks in me head.
If she did and jesus is God then she is the mother of God.
Or are you saying Jesus came to this world in a different way abeg enlighten me.

I'm Catholic. About 90% polish citizens are Catholics. But, in my opinion i dont need confession. Last time i confessed more than 5 years ago. Real, good Catholics should = must confess 1 per year. If u want, u can go to confession every days. For me, confession in useless b/c u tell ur sins not God, but human/priest.

@pilgrim.1,

pilgrim.1:


34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity.

           post #930 observes that -

[list][list][/list][/list]

[list]Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].[/list]


On the whole, I don't think it's fair to assume that plappville was lying. There are well established evidences to show precisely more serious and explicit statements of worhip to Mary from Catholic bishops; so one cannot just dismiss plappville out of hand in such a manner.

Regards.

My friend, you can do better than that.  Let me ask you a question, "so according to your understanding, does the word 'worship' in this context and time mean the same thing as it does today?"  In other words, do you believe that Pope Pius XII is extorting Catholics to give to the Blessed Virgin Mary the worship that should be given only to God?  What is/are the definition of worship.  When was the letter written?  Lets dissect this statement and bring it into context.  I'm sure many people will be surprised. 

Oh by the way, you really seem to have a handle on your bible.  Your knowledge of your faith is most admirable.  You should think about reading books and writings of some of the 'early church fathers' and the lives of the saints.  You'll be surprised as to how they worshiped and conducted their faith.  Many non-Catholics seem to believe that Christianity started after the reformation and have no clue as to the great dept of spirituality and knowledge of the early Christians (all of whom were Catholic).

suricattca:

I'm Catholic. About 90% polish citizens are Catholics. But,  in my opinion i don't need confession. Last time i confessed more than 5 years ago. Real, good Catholics should = must confess 1 per year. If u want, u can go to confession every days. For me, confession in useless b/c u tell ur sins not God, but human/priest.

Confession is not necessary (so long as you are without sin).  But since most of use are sinners confession then becomes a way to make right ourselves with God.  In the catholic Church confession is a sacrament; therefor, it is one way (among many) that God imparts His grace to us.  It allows us to truly know that our sins are forgiven.  It brings a since of peace and reconciliation to those who take advantage of it.  Reflect on this:

"Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed.’ Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? ‘Whose sins you shall forgive,’ he says, ‘they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.’ What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [Matt. 10:40; John 20:21–23]. They are raised to this dignity as if they were already gathered up to heaven" (The Priesthood 3:5 [A.D. 387]).  John Chrysostom (A catholic saint)

Hallo @Omenuko,

Omenuko:

@pilgrim.1,

My friend, you can do better than that.

I most certainly could, if I cared.

Omenuko:

Let me ask you a question, "so according to your understanding, does the word 'worship' in this context and time mean the same thing as it does today?"

Perhaps you would have directed that question to the same bishop who used it in the context of the quote taken directly from that Catholic website. Do you have anything to share that would enlighten us?

Omenuko:

In other words, do you believe that Pope Pius XII is extorting Catholics to give to the Blessed Virgin Mary the worship that should be given only to God?

Let me restate something I have often said so many times in the other thread: I have asked Catholics who enter into dabates on this subject to observe the following:

(a) if any Catholic doesn't know or have their facts ready to hand, then just leave pilgrim.1 jeje before she refers them to issues in Catholicism that may surprise them;

(b) my aim has never been to hurt anyone - and that was why I tried to be so patient until after over 300 entries from when I asked the same question in the other thread, before I actually started posting evidence of the fact of Mariolatry - issues which no Catholic has ever come back to counter with concrete evidence to the contrary;

(c) I regret (yes, regret) that so many people who contacted me through email were Catholic friends; after severally challenging me to post the "evidence" (because they miscalculated my patience for a lack of evidence thereto), I obliged and posted only one - and the result? So many of them wrote back that they had left the Catholic faith. I am not bluffing - even a dear friend who himself goes by the username lawyer was quite puzzled and considered leaving Catholicism - which was my regret, because I had not intended to disturb or rattle his faith-foundations.

(d) I found myself appealing to many Catholic email friends afterwards that I would listen and not hurt them by posting the remaining 11 explicit quotes from Bishops who stated in no unmistaken terms that Catholics worship Mary. I mean, "worship Mary". Rather than post in online on the Forum, I sent the references by email to a friend who calmly asked for such references to check out my assertions. Three weeks later, she emailed me just one line: "All you asserted are true - and shocking." I never heard from her ever since.

(e) when Catholics make the grave mistake of over-reacting without checking out their own archives, they only make a case against themselves. If you want to discuss with me, that's fine - and as I listened to other email friends, I will refrain for their sakes and not post the other 11 explicit statements (including where one of the Catholic Bishops referred to Mary as GOD), as was the case when another Bishop referred to Mary as the Saviour of the Roman people.

I don't make ungaurded assertions. As long as the evidence is there and well documented, I often make them plain for all to see - that is the difference my arguments make, and not the bluff and wild denials we often read.

My whole point here is to caution discussants here to not be so accusative against plappville by assuming she was lying - she was not. The evidence of what she has been saying is there - the problem is that not all Catholics are aware because not all Catholics actually are involved in Mariolatry. However, Omenuko, if you suppose that there's something you have to share which simply deflates the evidence I have referenced, it might be more helpfult to share with readers instead of wondering if I could do better than this.

Omenuko:

What is/are the definition of worship.

Lol, good question. Perhaps I may have to wait until you offer any of the 3 definitions (latria, dulia and hyperdulia) that Catholics often refer to from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Afterwards, I may come back and post you the explicit statements that Catholic Bishops have used in reference to Mary that might surprise you. I warn you, dear Omenuko, it is not my intention to hurt you or rattle your faith: so please leave pilgrim.1 jeje. . . or you may simply invite the very thing you may not want to read at all from your Bishops. Albeit, I shall be patient and hope you don't push your luck.

Omenuko:

When was the letter written? Lets dissect this statement and bring it into context. I'm sure many people will be surprised.

Lol. . . so what's your point? That Mariolatry did not originate from Catholicism? or that time has erased Mariolatry completely out of Catholicism today? Either way, let us know - you might be truly surprised at the answers.

Omenuko:

Oh by the way, you really seem to have a handle on your bible. Your knowledge of your faith is most admirable. You should think about reading books and writings of some of the 'early church fathers' and the lives of the saints. You'll be surprised as to how they worshiped and conducted their faith. Many non-Catholics seem to believe that Christianity started after the reformation and have no clue as to the great dept of spirituality and knowledge of the early Christians (all of whom were Catholic).

Hmm, okay I hear. We've been through that same idea and found it largely wanting. The apostles of Jesus Christ (whichever version of the Bible you might adhere to) were not Roman Catholics. So, please don't go there and assume things which have been retired out of circulation.

All the same, Deus vobiscum.

Em. . dear plappville,

plappville:

I am lead by the word of God through his only son Jesus christ and not by FAKE DOCTRIMS. MAY GOD'S WORD REMAINS BLESS AMEN.

Please take it easy with your fellow discussants. Things have happened to me since I last debated them on Catholicism in the other thread - I have made a whole lot of other Catholic friends, and lost friendships as well. In the midst of it all, I have learnt more to be humble and not assume that Catholics do not know what they are talking about. Yes, many of them know their onions, and if we must be fair to them, in as much as we accuse Catholics of many things, let's remember these two very humbling facts:

(a) Catholicism has produced most of the finest and most brilliant minds in religious and Christian scholarship. There are men whose words are on marble and constantly referenced to this moment, who have benefitted many others without waiting to check what denominations they belong to. An example? Anyone who knows or has read Chesterton will understand what I mean.

(b) God is sovereign and can use anyone. I know of Catholics whom God has used to bring about matters of blessings to other people without waiting to check their ID as to whether they were catholics, protestants, or Universalists. Most of the friends who have taught me humility in practical terms are Catholics (although some of them recently left the Catholic faith). When people accuse catholics of being murderers, I have refrained from going that far - because I am reminded that God convicted a man like saul of Tartus and mightily used him for the glory of Christ.

My point here is that nobody paid me for any public relations job for catholics; and I'm certainly not canvasing support for Catholicism not changing my views on what I know about the whole system. But my point is simply this: we should be willing to enter into constructive dialogue rather than hostile debates. Truth can still be shared with a humble spirit. Can we all try to do so?

Regards.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

But I still dey wonder for you sha how you take dey get time to create all those hyper links, infact I an begining to suspect that you are a Nasa creation, prove me wrong or I go begin worship you now now

Haa!! I no be Nasa creation O! Lol, I don't know how they come so easy to me to do. . . maybe because i have the info loaded in my memory that I could just recall them instanta - fiam, like that!

Anyhow, I just wanted to help the discussion so discussants don't banter accusations across board - especially when the evidence is well established beyond any doubts.

Shalom.

pilgrim.1:

Haa!! I no be Nasa creation O! Lol, I don't know how they come so easy to me to do. . . maybe because i have the info loaded in my memory that I could just recall them instanta - fiam, like that!

Anyhow, I just wanted to help the discussion so discussants don't banter accusations across board - especially when the evidence is well established beyond any doubts.

Shalom.

Ok I believe you

Phew! So I am free of that worship, ba? I thank God say nobody go come back and accuse either you or me of . . . em. . . pilgrimolatry!

pilgrim.1:

Phew! So I am free of that worship, ba? I thank God say nobody go come back and accuse either you or me of . . . em. . . pilgrimolatry!

I get my shrine already

Source => http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88085760


Vatican Includes Drugs and Wealth in New Sin List


In an effort to appeal to the modern Catholic, the Vatican has announced a list of seven new mortal sins. Some of the new don'ts: thou shalt not pollute and thou shalt not have too much money.

Madeleine Brand speaks with Father James Martin, acting publisher of the Jesuit magazine America, about the importance of updating the 1,500-year-old sin list.

"I think it's to remind people that sins are not just individual," he says referring to the Catholic church's old seven deadly sins — lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride. "There's also social sins , .sins that affect the community at large and sins that an institution can engage in."

The New Mortal Sins

1.) genetic modification

2.) carrying out experiments on humans

3.) polluting the environment

4.) causing social injustice

5.) causing poverty

6.) becoming obscenely wealthy

7.) taking drugs

In June of 2007, the Vatican also released "Guidelines for the Pastoral Care of the Road." The list extols the benefits of using a vehicle for family outings, getting the sick to the hospital and laments a host of ills associated with automobiles.

The "Drivers' Ten Commandments"

1.) You shall not kill.

2.) The road shall be for you a means of communion between people and not of mortal harm.

3.) Courtesy, uprightness and prudence will help you deal with unforeseen events.

4.) Be charitable and help your neighbor in need, especially victims of accidents.

5.) Cars shall not be for you an expression of power and domination, and an occasion of sin.

6.) Charitably convince the young and not so young not to drive when they are not in a fitting condition to do so.

7.) Support the families of accident victims.

8.) Bring guilty motorists and their victims together, at the appropriate time, so that they can undergo the liberating experience of forgiveness.

9.) On the road, protect the more vulnerable party.

10.) Feel responsible toward others.

Ekenele m ndi obula (My Greetings to All)

@pilgrim.1

15. Non-Catholics and reformers are therefore mistaken when because of this pretext they find fault with, or disapprove of, our devotion to the Virgin Mother of God, as if it took something from the worship due to God alone and to Jesus Christ. The contrary is true because any honor and veneration which we may give to our Heavenly Mother undoubtedly redounds to the glory of her Divine Son, not only because all graces and all gifts, even the highest, flow from Him as from their primary source, but also because "The glory of children are their fathers" (Book of Proverbs, XVII 6)."

Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].

From that same document you posted, the above quote more articulates the reason why we honor and respect the saints.  As you posted your self:

Perhaps I may have to wait until you offer any of the 3 definitions (latria, dulia and hyperdulia) that Catholics often refer to from the Catholic Encyclopedia

Historically, Catholics have used those terms to describe the different types of Honor given to God and the saints.  The Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship (the saints).  In referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary another term (hyperdulia) was used to describe honor given to her because of her unique role in salvation history; since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All these terms (e.g. latria, hyperdulia, dulia) have come to be described by the English word (old English) weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.  The word worship, today, has a more limited meaning and does not have the same wider usage as in the past.  But there are some instances where it still remains.  For example, in the British legal system they would refer to their magistrates as "Your Worship" and in the American system we use "Your Honor".  What this means is that they are giving the title-holder (e.g., magistrate, judge, politician, etc.) the honor appropriate of their office.  

That document (Fulgens Corona) was first written in latin and translated into English.  At most, what we can say about that document is that the term worship is used in the sense of giving the Virgin Mary the appropriate honor, her ability to fully (100%) follow God's will by giving birth to our savior.  The word "worship" has undergone a change in meaning in English and the term, as is in the document, is not a good translation into the English vernacular of today.  I think the more appropriate word would be 'honor'.  

I warn you, dear Omenuko, it is not my intention to hurt you or rattle your faith: so please leave pilgrim.1 jeje. . . or you may simply invite the very thing you may not want to read at all from your Bishops. Albeit, I shall be patient and hope you don't push your luck.

Why are you warning me?  Have I insulted you or your family.  Lets dialogue about these things, instead of throwing threats and innuendos.  I don't even know what type of Christian you are.  By the way, what faith tradition do you follow?  

Again, let me reiterate what I said before, the catholic Church does not teach the worship (latria) of anyone or anything other than God.  There may be people who improperly elevate Mary and the saints to levels that are improper and unorthodox (nay, anti-biblical), just as you will find in other denominations; when this occurs, the Church strongly comes out against it and condemns the practice.  I'm at work at the moment, so can only post so much at a time.

Warm greetings, Omenuko. . .

Thank you for weighing in on this matter. I pray for the grace to share with you as a disciple of my own advice - to do so with a humble spirit.

Omenuko:

From that same document you posted, the above quote more articulates the reason why we honor and respect the saints.  As you posted your self:

Okay, I'm quite familiar with the 3 definitions of worship in Catholic eschatology. The problem here is that a serious play on words have been employed to confuse issues with people who are not careful to examine them in light of Scripture. I was hoping that you may first consult your resources, see the context of each meaning ascribed to those 3 words, and carefully reason it through as to whether issues have not been confused. Let me expatiate a bit further:

Suppose we look up the worship due to God alone (latria), the basic question is this: who indeed could share that worship in anyway at all? Answer? NONE. What then does this connote? It means that in such matters, none other than the Trinity (the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit) could be properly ascribed that worship. Yes? Yes.

Now here is the problem. Are you aware, dear Omenuko, that God categorically states that in this regard He would not share His glory with anyone (Isaiah 42:8)? He says specifically:

[list][list]"I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."[/list][/list]

For those who may not understand this bit, the case is simply that God connects His NAME with His GLORY in matters of latria - the worship due alone to God. However, even after distinguishing these points between latria, dulia and hyperdulia, is it not amazing that the same latria is applied to the worship of Mary? How? For the simple reason that Scripture tells us that no one else is called specifically by the name: The "Glory of Israel" - none other than God alone is properly called that very Name.

Just to share with you the veracity that the appellation "the Glory of Israel" is a proper Name, one needs only consult the works of Catholic scholars themselves who admit this !! e.g., Fr. René Laurentin and the late Pope John Paul II. They already know that the appellation "the Glory of Israel" is a proper name that applies only to the Lord Jesus Himself - for He is Deity.

However, my two unanswered questions all along have been this:

[list][list][li]A. WHO is the "Glory of Israel" - MARY or GOD?[/li][/list][/list]

And if we acknowledge indeed that God alone is properly deserving of that Name, then the following question follows:

[list][list][li]B. WHY has the Catholic Church taken the divine titles of God and ascribed them to Mary?[/li][/list][/list]

You see, forget the excuses of 'we are only honouring Mary with "hyperdulia"', the real issue is that by applying something which belongs to God alone, they have crossed over to latria (the worship due alone to God) - because it is God Himself who said that as regards His Name, He would share that glory with none other! I believe that God's Word is weightier than any religious tradition being formulated at any one time.

You may see this thread ('Honour to Mary') where I asked these questions and provided the evidence for the fact that "the Glory of Israel" is a proper Name belonging only to God - even acknowledged by Catholic scholars (Fr. René Laurentin and Pope John Paul II).

As for the explicit statements where latria has been used for Mary, perhaps one day you may want to see for yourself when I offer the reference.

Cheers.

Enyi m (my friend) pilgrim.1,

However, my two unanswered question all along has been this:

A. WHO is the "Glory of Israel" - MARY or GOD?

And if we acknowledge indeed that God alone is properly deserving of that Name, then the following question follows:

B. WHY has the Catholic Church taken the divine titles of God and ascribed them to Mary?

Before we discuss your question above; might I ask, what faith tradition do you follow?  Knowing where you are coming from helps me use terms that you may be familiar with.  Also, I'm no theologian (far from it) so I may not be able to readily find passages/scriptures in discussing said issues.  Further, I just may not be able to answer your questions because I don't know the anwser; at which time, I will say 'I don't know' and try to find the solution.  So, I will ask for you to be patient with me and share some of your insights and knowledge to keep the discussion going.  Also, there may be people of other faith traditions that may have answers to your questions and I urge them to join the discussion. 

As is evident, I love my catholic faith and there is so much stuff/knowledge that I don't know about it.  In addition, I love discussing doctrine, theology, and the saints (things I find wanting in non-catholic christian traditions).  But, before we move on, what faith tradition do you follow?  As they say in Igbo (mee ka anyi tinye isi anyi na ihe ndi a:  Allow us to put our heads together in these issues).

I don't think it's fair to assume that plappville was lying. We've been through this discussion before in the other thread where I demonstrated this very issue to show that Catholics (or should I say "some Catholics" actually worship the image of Mary. Infact, there are several places where this fact is decried by the many Catholic faithfuls with whom I had that discussion - a very heated debate infact - and at the end of the day when the facts were posted, it went all quiet with no counter claims to provide a contrary evidence. See the following:

Anyone who comes here and claims that they were once Catholics and that they do worship Mary while in the Catholic church is lying period. I know you still think that we do and we're telling you that we don't. Whether you view it as worshipping or not, no one goes to Mary and says that she is their God. So nope not one Catholic worships Mary.
If they do they are not Catholic period. So I did not make an assumption, I pointed out an obvious fact.

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, its patroness, with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity

That was in the terms of that time. If we lived back in the day or during that time the word worship would not have the same meaning as it does today. We know that words evolve in a language. SO just as it was applied to Mary it was applied to those who were in high authority. The problem is that people use the meanings of a word today to state the meaning of the word in the past. For example, the word Gay now refers homosexuals whereas if it were to have been used 100 years ago it would mean happy.
That is also the problem that people have when reading the Bible the use today's meaning to interpret a word used centuries ago. Words do evolve in a language and it moves along as cultures do.

So in today's word, THERE IS NOT A CATHOLIC THAT WORSHIPS MARY.

It's also done in the open with other shrines and images of devotion ~-

What is the difference between falling down and bowing to Jesus the man and falling down and bowing to any other regular man?
Aren't both of them images, isn't man in the image of God?
Why did God permit the image of cherubims to be used for the ark of the covenant?

The first commandment forbids putting anything or anyone else in the position of God or above God.
So when you put money first you worship money, you can also worship sex even though sex is not an image.
God made himself an image when he walked the earth in human form.
So dear please what is the difference between the image of Jesus flesh and another man's flesh?

Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of a our death. ) Did Jesus have made mentioned that his mother is the mother of God

Last time I checked Jesus is God, if Mary is Jesus' Mother what does that make her? Please abeg Mary did not give birth to Jesus the human and then Jesus the God joined in later. She gave birth to Jesus's nature both man and God. Jesus was never a man and then God, he is both man and God at the same time, so when she gave birth she gave birth to both man and God Jesus, you know the God-man.

To take away the title of Mother of God from Mary is to insinuate that Jesus is not both man and God, and you know very well that that is heretic.

All these praises goes to MARY , ("Teach us how to pray," the disciples said to Jesus. (Luke 11, 1) He answered by teaching them the prayer we call "the Our Father"  or "The Lord's Prayer." he didn't mention his mother's name in this prayer so why then does Catholic seems to worship the mother more than the Son who is sent by God almighty  The Lord's Prayer is a basic Christian prayer every Christian learns it by heart, It 's a prayer Christians treasure

And then after the Hail Holy Queen prayer comes: O God whose only begotten Son has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life, grant we beseech thee, that meditating upon the mysteries of the most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise through the same Christ Our Lord. Amen.

Do you even know what the Rosary prayer consists of or do you think it's just a bunch of Hail Mary's, which isn't wrong by the way considering that the Hail Mary is the greeting given to Mary by angel Gabriel and Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist. SO it's either the angel and Elizabeth were wrong or Catholics are wrong. So which one is it?

JESUS WOULD HAVE MADE US KNOW THAT THROUGH HIS MOTHER WE CAN GET TO GOD .

And he did let us know when he allowed her to use her powerful intercession at the wedding feast at Cana. Mary asked for wine and Jesus answered her and provided wine. She initiated his first act in his ministry, his first miracle.
The bond of Mother and Child can never be broken and by the way Catholics do not give Mary more reverence than Jesus. In honoring Mary we honor Jesus. He who fails to honor the Mother dishonors the Son.

I'm Catholic. About 90% polish citizens are Catholics. But, in my opinion i don't need confession. Last time i confessed more than 5 years ago. Real, good Catholics should = must confess 1 per year. If You want, You can go to confession every days. For me, confession in useless b/c You tell ur sins not God, but human/priest.

People excommunicate themselves from the Church automatically when they decide to be against the Church's teaching, so are you sure you are Catholic? answer wisely.

(c) I regret (yes, regret) that so many people who contacted me through email were Catholic friends; after severally challenging me to post the "evidence" (because they miscalculated my patience for a lack of evidence thereto), I obliged and posted only one - and the result? So many of them wrote back that they had left the Catholic faith. I am not bluffing - even a dear friend who himself goes by the username lawyer was quite puzzled and considered leaving Catholicism - which was my regret, because I had not intended to disturb or rattle his faith-foundations.

They didn't know it from the beginning. People like that remind me of those who decided to stop following Jesus when he told them they had to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood. I believe their response were 'what manner of man is this that would ask us to eat his flesh'
the message was not meant for them.

Hmm, okay I hear. We've been through that same idea and found it largely wanting. The apostles of Jesus Christ (whichever version of the Bible you might adhere to) were not Roman Catholics. So, please don't go there and assume things which have been retired out of circulation

Actually they were, the earliest record of the church being called Catholic was in 100 A.D. by St. Ignatius of Antioch and even at that time the term Catholic was nothing new, so if Ignatius studied under the apostles and he used the term and it wasn't coined by him, then I wonder who was it coined by, oh yes that's right the apostles. Please don't mistake Catholicism to be a denomination, it isn't. It is the universal Church, Catholic means universal, and the church isn't just Catholic, it is One, it is Holy, and it is Apostolic. You know just as Christ wanted it to be.
Please post such documents and reference them so they can be double checked. Mariology is not wrong and is still prevalent today in the Catholic church.