My dear ~Lady~,

I knew there were actually no substance to your arguments, and that's why I twigged that it was best that I left you to have a good time filling the pages just to progress the thread. Most of the arguments you were advancing have been dealt with, and even your attempts to reharsh the same issues here have added nothing to the salient points I presented to you.

An example to the point: ask a Catholic to justify their bowing down in worship to graven images, and one is by default to get the same answer - "what about the serpent?" or "the cherubim on the ark of the covenant?" or "what about this or that image in the Bible?" - and for all that, you have not been able to show where anyone - ANYONE - actually worshipped these things in direct contravention of the warnings in God's Word.

Since you have always ducked under those excuses, that is why I asked these simple questions:

Do you care to offer simple verses (as I did) to show where latria, dulia, or hyperdulia was ever used in reference to:

                  ~~ the worship of man

                  ~~ the worship of the bronze serpent

                  ~~ the worship of cherubims

                  ~~ the worship of graven images?

And yet you terse response was yet another buckling with:

Do not ask me to prove something that we do not believe in. I know you didn't get your references from a Catholic site or eligitimate one, because Mariolatry is against Church teaching and is not found in Church doctrine to be what we should do.

This is the biggest laugh I've had in a long time!! For crying out loud, if you knew the Catholic Church did not believe in such things, why have you been ducking under the excuses of the bronze serpent, the cherubim and the graven images of Mary? You excuse them under the term "veneration" - but even if I should grant you that, are you so unaware that I was referring to the catholic doctrine of "veneration" as defining "dulia" and "hyperdulia"?!?   Are you the only Catholic that is so vastly oblivious of this fact?

In consonance thereto, I asked you to find where any of those terms (latria, dulia, or hyperdulia) fit the events of the serpent, the cherubim, man, or even the graven images. I wasn't surprised you would evade that one so smartly - because for all intents and purposes, you who cried "veneration" could not establish where any of those venerations (dulia or hyperdulia) were applied to any one of those events in the Bible. QED. As it so happens, the simple thing to do was yet evade the questions directly, tuck them neatly under an excuse that translates into incognisance on your part. . . and you are happy to have placated the attention of other readers? Na wah!

~Lady~, humility is simply admitting that you either don't know, or that you cannot accept the fact as it appears. I have not solicited references from non-Catholic sources: rather, I went directly to your own Church affirmations so that you will be aware of what your leaders define for the world. To pretend these issues and then come back hooting that the Catholic Church does not believe in them, is to categorically deny the same things you had used in defence of your affirmations! Em. . . I think others are seeing already how evasive and untenable this attitude actually is. I grant you your excuse, though. . . you cannot establish them from the Bible - because in none of those events did the Bible ask any man to venerate those objects whether by dulia, hyperdulia or even latria! So, what are you still doing with graven images then?

So when you stop using a standard that doesn't apply to us, then you'll get your answers.

Laughable!! My dear ~Lady~, why don't you do the very basic thing here by checking out the references? I quoted directly from a Catholic authority - please see it here: (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm). Is that to be taken as below your Catholic standard?!? Or are you just so panic-striken? Haba!!

Anyway, enjoy.

[how did you know her egg was not fertilized by a sperm eh david? were you there,

We all know that MARY was concieved by the holy spirit, but we do not know how this was done, As God has his own way of doing things. Do not conclude that her eggs were fertilized by sparm, if You say so!!! whom sparm could that be?? do You mean the holy spirit slept with Mary He came to the world in a human form but he wasn't real human, he is more than what we know him to be.

May Gods word remain blessed AMEN. [quote][/quote]

~Lady~, just to reassure you and remove any tendencies of the excuse of being lazy to go and check, let me simply give you by reposting what the Catholic website says:

[list][list]There are several degrees of this worship:

[li]if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.[/li]

[li]When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).[/li]

[li]As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).[/li]

source: Catholic Encyclopedia - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm [/list][/list]

Now, dear ~Lady~. . .the terms have been outlined in their various types of "venerations". Whether it is dulia, hyperdulia, or latria, can you show us where any such terms applies to:

                 ~~ the worship of man

                 ~~ the worship of the bronze serpent

                 ~~ the worship of cherubims

                 ~~ the worship of graven images?

Em, please retire that excuse of we do not "worship" Mary - your Catholic Encyclopedia quoted above makes the case to the contrary by stating: "the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia".  Now, in the same manner, please show us the HYPERDULIA or DULIA in any one of the above events of the serpent, the cherubim, man, and the graven images of Mary as you have always excused them from the Bible. Just simply show us from the Bible - that will do. Thank you again.

KarmaMod:

So when are we re going to see the verses advocating the rosaries because all this all yada yada is boring me.

Lol. . . you never start! Anyone can see how evasive her replies have been. You no go find the verses - they don't exist!

davidylan:

Thank you, i thot i was the only one tired of the usual "fill the entire thread with meaningless words as a way of dodging the real issue" prank.

Hmm, na today?

Hmmm interesting discourse, I think this is one of those chicken or egg which comes first issues because both sides are actually making sense. Maybe both sides could start by having a common definition of what some important terms like worship, bowing, veneration and so on in the discourse means both in the present day and the past. Just maybe that would make the line of division a bit clearer.

Chrisbenogor:

Maybe both sides could start by having a common definition of what some important terms like worship, bowing, veneration and so on in the discourse means both in the present day and the past. Just maybe that would make the line of division a bit clearer.

Precisely. Applause again!

@pilgrim
Always interesting to see you guys analyse stuff, seriously I still wonder about you, are you reading philosophy?

An example to the point: ask a Catholic to justify their bowing down in worship to graven images, and one is by default to get the same answer - "what about the serpent?" or "the cherubim on the ark of the covenant?" or "what about this or that image in the Bible?" - and for all that, you have not been able to show where anyone - ANYONE - actually worshipped these things in direct contravention of the warnings in God's Word.

Show us where anyone actually worshipped Mary in contravention of the warnings in God's Word. If the reverence of the serpent in the desert wasn't wrong, what is wrong with the reverence of Mary?

You are so laughable, you can't even answer a simple question. I have asked time and time again, what is the difference between the golden calf and the bronze serpent? They were both graven images of things infact animals, why were the Israelites punished for one and then other one they were even asked to look to it for help?

If it is so simple to refute and if my argument lack substance why do you have such a hard time answering the questions?

Once again stop making the claim that Catholics are asked to worship Mary in the form of latria, if you cannot be truthful then cease to speak and spread lies about the Church.

This is the biggest laugh I've had in a long time!!  For crying out loud, if you knew the Catholic Church did not believe in such things, why have you been ducking under the excuses of the bronze serpent, the cherubim and the graven images of Mary? You excuse them under the term "veneration" - but even if I should grant you that, are you so unaware that I was referring to the catholic doctrine of "veneration" as defining "dulia" and "hyperdulia"?!?   Are you the only Catholic that is so vastly oblivious of this fact?

I haven't been ducking under any excuse other than asking you answer simple questions that you cannot answer. Let me repeat that for you I HAVE BEEN ASKING YOU QUESTIONS TO ANSWER, BUT YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO, my whole point has never been to prove that worshipping of graven images in wrong, but to show you that just because it is an image doesn't mean it is worshipping. That is te reason why I have asked you to tell me the difference between the golden calf and the bronze serpent, weren't both of them images?

So please don't skip over, actually answer the question rather than result to the usual tactic of concluding a discussion and in the process confusig people. ANSWER THE QUESTION:  [size=13pt]WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE GOLDEN CALF AND THE BRONZE SERPENT?[/size]

ARE THEY BOTH IMAGES OR NOT?

WHY WERE THE ISRAELITES PUNISHED FOR ONE AND THEN ASKED TO LOOK TO THE OTHER?

In consonance thereto, I asked you to find where any of those terms (latria, dulia, or hyperdulia) fit the events of the serpent, the cherubim, man, or even the graven images. I wasn't surprised you would evade that one so smartly - because for all intents and purposes, you who cried "veneration" could not establish where any of those venerations (dulia or hyperdulia) were applied to any one of those events in the Bible.

Stop rushing through posts, actually read them, this was my response.

I didn't know you wanted that I thought you were just making a statement and I picked up on it. But here it goes, dulia is what you speak of when you state that these men bow not out of worship. chron 21:21 for example.

You could have found it on page 9. Actually read through you will get some answers.

~Lady~, humility is simply admitting that you either don't know, or that you cannot accept the fact as it appears

You might want to take your own advice, deliberating twisting things to suit you isn't good. False truth are lies. For example when you said that the name Glory of Israel was due to God alone, that was a lie, It has always been Glory in Israel, in Ecclesiasticus, he said he would set his glory on Israel.

I have not solicited references from non-Catholic sources: rather, I went directly to your own Church affirmations so that you will be aware of what your leaders define for the world. To pretend these issues and then come back hooting that the Catholic Church does not believe in them, is to categorically deny the same things you had used in defence of your affirmations! Em. . . I think others are seeing already how evasive and untenable this attitude actually is. I grant you your excuse, though. . . you cannot establish them from the Bible - because in none of those events did the Bible ask any man to venerate those objects whether by dulia, hyperdulia or even latria! So, what are you still doing with graven images then?

You have solicited non-catholic websites, I checked the catholic websites and Mariolatria is not encouraged, I know for a fact that you got that from a non-catholic website so don't come here and lie.

Latria is the worship due God, Dulia is the reverence of humans, Hyperdulia is the high reverence of Mary and Mary alone, notice that is not saying Hyperlatria, so it is not equating Mary to God or putting her on the same level as God, insted it is saying Hyperdulia, placing it a bit abve other humans but not anywhere close to God.
Please use the proper definitions of the terms thanks.

~Lady~, just to reassure you and remove any tendencies of the excuse of being lazy to go and check, let me simply give you by reposting what the Catholic website says:


There are several degrees of this worship:
if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).source: Catholic Encyclopedia - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm


Now, dear ~Lady~. . .the terms have been outlined in their various types of "venerations". Whether it is dulia, hyperdulia, or latria, can you show us where any such terms applies to:

~~ the worship of man

~~ the worship of the bronze serpent

~~ the worship of cherubims

~~ the worship of graven images?

Em, please retire that excuse of we do not "worship" Mary - your Catholic Encyclopedia quoted above makes the case to the contrary by stating: "the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia". Now, in the same manner, please show us the HYPERDULIA or DULIA in any one of the above events of the serpent, the cherubim, man, and the graven images of Mary as you have always excused them from the Bible. Just simply show us from the Bible - that will do. Thank you again.

Ok now what does HYPERDULIA mean? Is hyperdulia equal to God?

The one paid to the serpent was hyperdulia because the Israelites looked up to it for help. It was their savior at that point. Te one to the cherubim was dulia, the one to the man was dulia, if the images of Mary is graven, then the bronze serpent is a graven image too, and so must Jesus, because just as the serpent was lifted up so was Jesus, so why did God allow it?

When you actually start being truthful we will get somewhere.

Lol. . . you never start! Anyone can see how evasive her replies have been. You no go find the verses - they don't exist!

Are you sure about that? Because last time I checked the greeting given to Mary was "Hail, full of grace, blessed are yu among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb"
The Our Father is the prayer taught to us by Jesus himself. The birth of Jesus is in the Bible, the death of Jesus is in the Bible, the resurrection of Jesus is in the Bible, the baptism of Jesus is in the Bible, the woman clothed with the sun is in the Bible.
These are what make up the rosary prayer.
But since you all advocate that prayer is wrong, please tell me why do you recite Psalm 23, where is it advocated that you recite it?

I bet you won't find a single verse that says "pray the psalm 23"
Stop being hypocritical, start being truthful and start with yourself.

Hmmm interesting discourse, I think this is one of those chicken or egg which comes first issues because both sides are actually making sense. Maybe both sides could start by having a common definition of what some important terms like worship, bowing, veneration and so on in the discourse means both in the present day and the past. Just maybe that would make the line of division a bit clearer

It's already been defined for them, I defined for her earlier and the other lady did the same, but when you have people who are hell bent on being deceitful, what do you get? Holier than thou hypocrites.
Homegirl skipped it all, that's why she has not answered any of my questions. I dare her to actually answer a question.

Precisely. Applause again!

Liar, you know very well that it has been given to you. Stop pretending as if you didn't see it. Answer my questions.

@pilgrim
Always interesting to see you guys analyse stuff, seriously I still wonder about you, are you reading philosophy?
Trying to get me hands on that thomas nagel stuff.
Cheers.

Yeah um St. Paul said we should interceed for one another, you know pray for one another, and he did also say that death cannot separate us, so if we're not separated by death what stops us from praying for one another and sharing our gifts afterall we're not separated not even by death?

this is very very sad. This is what Paul ACTUALLY SAID!

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul ACTUALLY was saying death cannot separate us FROM THE LOVE OF GOD . . . not about separation from each other! How do you hypocrites butcher the bible this badly and think you can get away with it? The bible clearly says in Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

. . . the dead have no more portion FOR EVER in anything (including we the living) done under the sun! How then can death not separate us from?

Paul said we shld intercede for one another . . . no where did He tell us to intercede either for or on behalf of the dead.

Um actually St. Paul tells us that even death cannot separate us from the body of Christ

You LIAR . . . read romans 8, Paul says no such thing. He says death cannot separate us from the LOVE OF GOD not the body of Christ! I am sick of bible twisters who build a theology on falsehood.

Hi @~Lady~,

~Lady~:

Show us where anyone actually worshipped Mary in contravention of the warnings in God's Word. If the reverence of the serpent in the desert wasn't wrong, what is wrong with the reverence of Mary?

(1) Please give us the verse where the Bible said anyone ever reverred the serpent. Just a verse, thank you.

(2) When you find us that verse, tell us which of the Catholic terms for "worship" (dulia or hyperdulia) was used in that verse, thank you again.

(3) And when you are done, please show us if HYPERDULIA was used for the serpent the same way that you're making a parallel for Mary-reverence here (remember that the Catholic authorities define that reverence as HYPERDULIA), many thanks.

~Lady~:

You are so laughable, you can't even answer a simple question.

Thank you. Since I offered that you get the same answers from the other thread from the links I posted in the previous page and you're too lazy to go check them out, the simple thing to do is to cease pretending you can't read and instead ask simple questions.

~Lady~:

I have asked time and time again, what is the difference between the golden calf and the bronze serpent?

I have answered too many times already: none of them were ever accorded either DULIA, HYPERDULIA, or LATRIA. Since you must always use the same excuse and deny them again, my answers have not changed. When you find the DULIA, HYPERDULIA and LATRIA for the golden calf and bronze serpent, then please let us read it for ourselves, thank you again.

~Lady~:

They were both graven images of things infact animals, why were the Israelites punished for one and then other one they were even asked to look to it for help?

God did not command anyone to worship either of them.

~Lady~:

If it is so simple to refute and if my argument lack substance why do you have such a hard time answering the questions?

Because I have answered, provided texts, quoted Catholic references, pointed you to links, offered you direct quotes from your Bishops - and repeated them  in the two threads on the same discussion. Since you cannot read them, I am now pretending you can't see them so that you can continue to fill the pages. So, it's just about time you stop boring people like KarmaMod and quote the verses directly for your Catholic worship of those images.

~Lady~:

Once again stop making the claim that Catholics are asked to worship Mary in the form of latria, if you cannot be truthful then cease to speak and spread lies about the Church.

I don't remember making such a statement, do you mind? If I did, I apologise upfront - but it would be nice for you to quote where I said that Catholics are being asked to worship Mary and let's read the context again.

~Lady~:

I haven't been ducking under any excuse other than asking you answer simple questions that you cannot answer. Let me repeat that for you I HAVE BEEN ASKING YOU QUESTIONS TO ANSWER, BUT YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO, my whole point has never been to prove that worshipping of graven images in wrong, but to show you that just because it is an image doesn't mean it is worshipping.

I like people who are losing their cool when they cannot offer simple evidence for their assertions. Please use point 1,580 in your fonts next time to shout it - it doesn't change anything. I answered your questions, and since you can't see the answers, I am only pretending ignorance for the moment and asking you to show us the worship/veneration/reverence/ of those images you find in the Bible, thank you yet again.

~Lady~:

That is te reason why I have asked you to tell me the difference between the golden calf and the bronze serpent, weren't both of them images?

As already answered:

[list][list]"I have answered too many times already: none of them were ever accorded either DULIA, HYPERDULIA, or LATRIA. Since you must always use the same excuse and deny them again, my answers have not changed. When you find the DULIA, HYPERDULIA and LATRIA for the golden calf and bronze serpent, then please let us read it for ourselves, thank you again."[/list][/list]

Repeating the same thing is a very good device when you have nothing to say - and inviting me to repeat the same thing ad hominem is not helping your argument.

~Lady~:

So please don't skip over, actually answer the question rather than result to the usual tactic of concluding a discussion and in the process confusig people. ANSWER THE QUESTION:  [size=13pt]WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE GOLDEN CALF AND THE BRONZE SERPENT?[/size]

Okay, again let me pretend ignorance for your sake - "pretend", I said. . . because you are only beginning to make for a good laugh for these panic-attacks:

[list][list]"I have answered too many times already: none of them were ever accorded either DULIA, HYPERDULIA, or LATRIA. Since you must always use the same excuse and deny them again, my answers have not changed. When you find the DULIA, HYPERDULIA and LATRIA for the golden calf and bronze serpent, then please let us read it for ourselves, thank you again."[/list][/list]

Repeating the same thing is a very good device when you have nothing to say - and inviting me to repeat the same thing [i]ad hominem is not helping your argument.[/i]

~Lady~:

ARE THEY BOTH IMAGES OR NOT?

WHY WERE THE ISRAELITES PUNISHED FOR ONE AND THEN ASKED TO LOOK TO THE OTHER?

Again O. . let me repeat for your sake!  
~~  "God did not command anyone to worship either of them."

~Lady~:

Stop rushing through posts, actually read them, this was my response. You could have found it on page 9. Actually read through you will get some answers.

I'm sorry, ~Lady~, dulia has been given another meaning by you for convenience sake. Please consult the reference I gave you from the Catholic online Encyclopedia and see for yourself.

~Lady~:

You might want to take your own advice, deliberating twisting things to suit you isn't good.

I'm used to such talk, actually. It might have helped if you pointed out how I twisted anything.

~Lady~:

False truth are lies.

I've seen enough in yours to skip them and deal with other worries of more particular notice.

~Lady~:

For example when you said that the name Glory of Israel was due to God alone, that was a lie, It has always been Glory in Israel, in Ecclesiasticus, he said he would set his glory on Israel.

Bru-ha-ha-ha!!   This Lady, I never knew you're so confused!! Please help me here, if you can -- which one are you arguing now:

             ~ Glory in Israel?
             ~ Glory of Israel?
             ~ Glory on Israel?

Please calm down, and let's discuss this issue plainly. If I was lying by quoting the text directly, so were the Catholic Fr. René Laurentin and late Pope John Paul II who both quoted the same thing as I quoted it and both recognized it as a divine title! Let me remind you again:

[list][list][quote=Fr. René Laurentin]"As Jesus enters the Temple Simeon greets him as 'the glory of Israel' (Luke 2:32). This is a divine title."[/quote][/list][/list]

[list][list][quote=Pope John Paul II]'In that 40-day-old infant it sees the “light” destined to illumine the nations, and presents HIM as the “glory” of the people of Israel (cf. Lk 2:32). It is he who must conquer death, as the Letter to the Hebrews proclaims, explaining the mystery of the Incarnation and Redemption: “Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature” (Heb 2:14), having taken on human nature.'

source: 'Eucharistic Celebration on the Feast of Presentation'  (Sunday, 2 February 1997, also posted on an official Vatican website))[/quote][/list][/list]

Lol, ~Lady~, if my quoting the text directly and as did Fr. René Laurentin and Pope John Paul II did is a lie, that makes 3 of us already! Yikes!!   I told you, before you vex blow your trumpet anyhow, go and check again and again! It doesn't hurt to do so.

Meanwhile, the fact that the title "the Glory of Israel" is a divine title is recognized both by Fr. René Laurentin, Pope John Paul, and several Catholic authorities. Yikes - if I go by your assertion, then that simply increases the list of liars!

Again O. . . if you were informed at all, you would know that I wasn't lying when I posted the reference that Catholics refer to Mary as "the Glory of Israel" - because that is precisely what she is called in the Catholic common prayer known as "[url=http://holycrosslynchburg.org/prayers.htm#Litany%20Of%20Loretto]Litany of Loreto[/url]" ("Glory of Israel - pray for us ". So, for all the millions of Catholics who have said that prayer, we may go by your assertion and increase the list to millions of Catholic liars, abi?

~Lady~, just simply check the reference, it saves you such waist and empty brashness. Unless you can show us that it was not "Glory of Israel" but rather "Glory on/in Israel", then the Catholic list will include millions of liars from your accusation alleged against the point.

~Lady~:

You have solicited non-catholic websites, I checked the catholic websites and Mariolatria is not encouraged, I know for a fact that you got that from a non-catholic website so don't come here and lie.

You are too quick to accuse others, you know; and I offer my many thanks for the compliment. I don't remember saying that the definition of Mariolatry was given by a Catholic website; what I offered was that dulia, hyperdulia, and latria are from Catholic websites.

However, even when we speak of Mariolatry, Catholics perfectly understand what we mean - so what's the problem with that? And yes, if you want to know, I got the meaning as commonly used among religious scholars - such as:

                  ~ The PHRONTISTERY: (scroll down)
                  Mariolatry  -  worship of the virgin mother 
                  Mariology  -  study of the Virgin Mary

                  ~ YourDictionary.com
                  Mariola[b]try[/b]  -  veneration of the Virgin Mary, when regarded as carried
                                       to an idolatrous extreme;

                  ~ YourDictionary.com
                    Mario[b]logy[/b]  -  the branch of Christian theology that deals with the Virgin Mary.

Besides, those sites (PHRONTISTERY, YourDictionary.com) are not Protestant sites - they are used by even non-religious people; and when we speak of MARIOLOGY and MARIOLATRY, they all understand what we mean even among Catholics.

~Lady~:

Latria is the worship due God, Dulia is the reverence of humans, Hyperdulia is the high reverence of Mary and Mary alone, notice that is not saying Hyperlatria, so it is not equating Mary to God or putting her on the same level as God, insted it is saying Hyperdulia, placing it a bit abve other humans but not anywhere close to God.
Please use the proper definitions of the terms thanks.

I did not edit or change anything - that is why I quoted them directly because I know you would react the same way panic-stricken Catholics have reacted in the past when I debated them. Please let's be simple in these matters and look at what your authorities have said:

[list][list][li]As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).source: Catholic Encyclopedia - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm [/li][/list]

There! They called it the "worship", not the revisionist euphemism you have engineered here.

~Lady~:

Ok now what does HYPERDULIA mean? Is hyperdulia equal to God?

I'm not the one defining the term for Catholics - rather, your authorities are the ones who said: "the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia". Is that not clear enough, abi wetin we dey miss?

~Lady~:

The one paid to the serpent was hyperdulia because the Israelites looked up to it for help.

Thanks for that attempt, but sorry - looking up at something is not to be mistaken for HYPERDULIA. And ahem. . . God nowhere said that they looked up to the serpent "for help" - this is your fabu, so please make another believable excuse.

Meanwhile, as defined by your Catholic encyclopedia, HYPERDULIA is "worship paid to her" - so, are you saying that HYPERDULIA was the case with the serpent because it was "worship paid to it?" You claimed hyperdulia for the serpent O. . . so please come back and let us confirm from you that you suppose serpent worship is part of your personal interpretation for what God never said!

~Lady~:

It was their savior at that point.

I hear - so Jesus Christ was not Saviour at that point, abi? No, I did not accuse you, I'm only asking you. And if He was THE Saviour, how many Saviours do we have in Christianity?

~Lady~:

Te one to the cherubim was dulia, the one to the man was dulia,

DULIA is defined as "our worship of distinguished servants of God" by Catholic encyclopedia. Now, please show us where anyone ever worshipped man, cherubim, or serpent?

~Lady~:

if the images of Mary is graven, then the bronze serpent is a graven image too, and so must Jesus, because just as the serpent was lifted up so was Jesus, so why did God allow it?

Answer again:

(a) Jesus is not a graven image; your "must" is terrifyingly sad, because you're forcing your opinion to make Him such.
(b) NOBODY ever accorded the bronze serpent any "worship" of dulia or hyperdulia.
(c) To force this unfortunate musings upon Mary is to add what is not in Scripture for your own prejudices.

~Lady~:

When you actually start being truthful we will get somewhere.

Please calmly show HOW I have misrepresented anything here, thank you.

~Lady~:

Are you sure about that? Because last time I checked the greeting given to Mary was "Hail, full of grace, blessed are yu among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb"

I've been through that before - please have the patience to see it in the other Catholic thread. Where are the verses for the Rosary, not some mumbled recitation with rubber beads? Who were the Christians in the Bible going about with a bead that you have failed to show us?

~Lady~:

The Our Father is the prayer taught to us by Jesus himself. The birth of Jesus is in the Bible, the death of Jesus is in the Bible, the resurrection of Jesus is in the Bible, the baptism of Jesus is in the Bible, the woman clothed with the sun is in the Bible.

Knock-knock. . . please can you wake up and come back to reality? My discussions have not spun off that tangent the way you sparked off there. Where is dulia, hyperdulia, and latria for those graven images were the questions I asked O. . . not the baptism, birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

~Lady~:

These are what make up the rosary prayer.

Hehe. . . you meant to say they were "made up" but not in the Bible, kwo? This is really funny! No wonder we have waited forever for you to post the verses!

~Lady~:

But since you all advocate that prayer is wrong, please tell me why do you recite Psalm 23, where is it advocated that you recite it?

Eh? Who is advocating that prayer is wrong? I no fit laff again O!

~Lady~:

I bet you won't find a single verse that says "pray the psalm 23"

No, because we don't pratise Psalm 23 recitation on a number of beads, thank you! Anymore after-thoughts?

~Lady~:

Stop being hypocritical, start being truthful and start with yourself.

My dear, I thank you for the compliments. We all just wonder that you who shout it often has been most wanting in that very thing.

~Lady~:

It's already been defined for them, I defined for her earlier and the other lady did the same, but when you have people who are hell bent on being deceitful, what do you get? Holier than thou hypocrites.
Homegirl skipped it all, that's why she has not answered any of my questions. I dare her to actually answer a question.

Thank you again for the homegirl. I suppose others will point you to where my answers are and help you to read.

~Lady~:

Liar, you know very well that it has been given to you. Stop pretending as if you didn't see it. Answer my questions.

Thank you for the compliment again O. . . hehe! If you can't read, wait and let others show you the answers I have given. Remain blessed.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

@pilgrim
Always interesting to see you guys analyse stuff, seriously I still wonder about you, are you reading philosophy?

Yep, . . lol. . I failed it the first time, though - but aced it on my resit. It was part of my required thesis.

Chrisbenogor:

Trying to get me hands on that thomas nagel stuff.
Cheers.

Good one. Cheers.

pilgrim,I want to start a thread centered around you and other ex Muslims where people can ask you and others sincere questions.
I would like to know what you were taught as kids and what Islam says about certain things with valid quotations and most importantly how you came to Christ.
I'm sure It'll be an eye opener and perhaps an evangelism tool for others.

Hi Queenisha,

Well, that would be noble. I would be available to make inputs and share on highlights in that thread (bearing in mind that I would not like to hurt the feelings of readers). But that would be okay, if and where permitted.

How are you doing anyhow?

Great.
I'm doing good by His Grace,the stock market failure notwithstanding
How are you?

I'm doing okay by God's grace. Hmm. . na wah for the financial wahala currently going on. But that would be anoda talk when I move over to the apppropriate thread. Good to read from you, blessings.

@~Lady~,

Now, let me point out something very important to readers here for our benefit:

~Lady~:

Latria is the worship due God, Dulia is the reverence of humans, Hyperdulia is the high reverence of Mary and Mary alone, notice that is not saying Hyperlatria, so it is not equating Mary to God or putting her on the same level as God, insted it is saying Hyperdulia, placing it a bit abve other humans but not anywhere close to God.
Please use the proper definitions of the terms thanks.

Noting that you stated: "Hyperdulia is the high reverence of Mary and Mary alone", one wonders why you applied the same thing for the serpent in this quote:

~Lady~:

The one paid to the serpent was hyperdulia because the Israelites looked up to it for help.

Isn't it plain that you are making your own argument even weaker by the minute with such confusion?

Again O. . . if you were informed at all, you would know that I wasn't lying when I posted the reference that Catholics refer to Mary as "the Glory of Israel" - because that is precisely what she is called in the Catholic common prayer known as "Litany of Loreto" ("Glory of Israel - pray for us ". So, for all the millions of Catholics who have said that prayer, we may go by your assertion and increase the list to millions of Catholic liars, abi?

I would say the title the "Glory of Israel" is ascribed to God and God alone.  I would also say the the title can be ascribed to Mary also, but in a secondary since (infinitely subordinate to God).  As we all know, Mary gave birth to our savior by giving her 'fiat' (latin for 'yes').  In another since she is the mother of the "Glory of Isreal", namely Jesus Christ.  In another since she is the daughter of the "Glory of Israel", namely God the father.  In another since she is the spouse of the "Glory of Israel", God the Holy Spirit.

I guess, I don't really understand your question.  What are the divine titles of God?  Where does one find the divine titles of God?  Which language do we use to determine the divine titles of God (e.g., English, Greek, Latin, Igbo, Yoruba, Edo, etc.)?  What version of the Bible does one use to determine these things (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, etc.)?  

Thanks for that attempt, but sorry - looking up at something is not to be mistaken for HYPERDULIA. And ahem. . . God nowhere said that they looked up to the serpent "for help" - this is your fabu, so please make another believable excuse.

My guy, so what were they doing?  Just stairing at image with there eyes closed?

Worship:

2. Honor; respect; civil deference. [Obs.]

Of which great worth and worship may be won. --Spenser.

Then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. --Luke xiv. 10.

Another thing, lets use the term worship in todays language.  Because you are confusing me.  Are you saying that Catholics worship (todays usage) Mary and the Saints?  The term worship used in the definitions below can only be understood in the broader use of the term (e.g., honor, respect, see above).

-if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
-When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
-As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).source: Catholic Encyclopedia -

DULIA is defined as "our worship of distinguished servants of God" by Catholic encyclopedia. Now, please show us where anyone ever worshipped man, cherubim, or serpent?

Catholics have the same reverence (dulia, hyperdulia) for Mary and Saints as did the Israelites have for the Ark of the Covenent.  The Ark of the Covenant was a sacred object.  They paid it honor and veneration, but did not give it worship (latria) deserving of God alone.

(1) Please give us the verse where the Bible said anyone ever reverred the serpent. Just a verse, thank you.

Numbers 21: 8-9

8And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

Why were they healed by looking to a serpent ma'am isn't that an image?

(2) When you find us that verse, tell us which of the Catholic terms for "worship" (dulia or hyperdulia) was used in that verse, thank you again.

First of all it is not a "catholic" term for "worship" it is Latin for "worship" and in Latin there are three different terms that are used to show worship, worship of God is different from worship due to man for example, the judges in england are called "Your Worship" are the enlgish now idolaters?

I would really appreciate you answering a question, instead of beating around the bush.

The "worship" used there would be euivalent to "hyperdulia" as in not equal to God.

(3) And when you are done, please show us if HYPERDULIA was used for the serpent the same way that you're making a parallel for Mary-reverence here (remember that the Catholic authorities define that reverence as HYPERDULIA), many thanks.

I believe I answered this above. The serpent was not equal to God, Mary is not equal to God, which is hyperdulia. The Isrealites looked up to the serpent for healing, we look up to Mary for help.

Thank you. Since I offered that you get the same answers from the other thread from the links I posted in the previous page and you're too lazy to go check them out, the simple thing to do is to cease pretending you can't read and instead ask simple questions.

Are you mistaken on my questions? Do you not know what I have been asking? Do you comprehend my questions or do I need to break it down for ya?
Cause last time I checked I have been asking you what is the difference between the image of the man Jesus and the image of another man, and what is the difference between the image of the golden calf and the image of the serpent?
I didn't think those were rocket science questions.

I have answered too many times already: none of them were ever accorded either DULIA, HYPERDULIA, or LATRIA. Since you must always use the same excuse and deny them again, my answers have not changed. When you find the DULIA, HYPERDULIA and LATRIA for the golden calf and bronze serpent, then please let us read it for ourselves, thank you again

No you have not my question. You have not told me what the difference between the image of the calf and the image of the serpent is? All you have done is asked me more questions about dulia, latria, and hyperdulia. I provided you those answers and quoted them again for you because i'm sure you mistakenly skipped it, i even told you i answered it on page 9 on my last post. You however have not answered a single question posed to you.

Now once again I wil give you the answer, the golden calf was worshipped in latria, the bronze in hyperdulia. latria is the equivalent of God, the difference is that they disregarded God and decided to make the calf the supreme being, but with the serpent they did not equate it to God, however when they looked up to the serpent (reverence) they were healed, but they did not disregard God when looking to the serpent, the same is with Mary. We look up to her for help and we ask her assistance, however she is not held in regards to God. God is not pushed aside and Mary is not elevated to his level.

Now if your problem is with the word 'worship', you might want to do some learning on the english language and see that this the definition of worship: For God ----
1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.  

For others --- (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her). For example "Your worship' to the magistrates.

So see there is a difference. Now latin is not the english language and in translation "worship" is the term that closely resembles the meanings of the words in latin. No official church document is written in any language other than latin. After it has been presented to the church it can then be translated into other languages. I think your problem here is language and time relativity. Now i've already told you many times and so have others that in the past, and this was not long agao, worship was a word used for humans too, it just had a different level.

God did not command anyone to worship either of them.

Just as we are not commanded to worship Mary, in your terms.

Because I have answered, provided texts, quoted Catholic references, pointed you to links, offered you direct quotes from your Bishops - and repeated them  in the two threads on the same discussion. Since you cannot read them, I am now pretending you can't see them so that you can continue to fill the pages. So, it's just about time you stop boring people like KarmaMod and quote the verses directly for your Catholic worship of those images.

I am yet to get an answer to the difference between the image calf and the image serpent.

[I don't remember making such a statement, do you mind? If I did, I apologise upfront - but it would be nice for you to quote where I said that Catholics are being asked to worship Mary and let's read the context again.
/quote]

Are you sure you are aware of what you've been doing all along. Everytime you've reference the bishops you are saying that we are asked to worship Mary. You've even said that we do so because of tradition. DO you remember what you say at all?
Anyway, i will look through and find them for you.
But apology accepted, but just so you know, you're still doing it.

As already answered:


"I have answered too many times already: none of them were ever accorded either DULIA, HYPERDULIA, or LATRIA. Since you must always use the same excuse and deny them again, my answers have not changed. When you find the DULIA, HYPERDULIA and LATRIA for the golden calf and bronze serpent, then please let us read it for ourselves, thank you again."

Repeating the same thing is a very good device when you have nothing to say - and inviting me to repeat the same thing ad hominem is not helping your argument.

Sweetheart, your only answer has been "I have answered" now how can that be your answer?

You can easily answer by saying, no they were not images or yes they were images, and then elaborate. Plain and simple. These are not rocket science questions, and I think you are smart enough to even answer those.

Okay, again let me pretend ignorance for your sake - "pretend", I said. . . because you are only beginning to make for a good laugh for these panic-attacks:


"I have answered too many times already: none of them were ever accorded either DULIA, HYPERDULIA, or LATRIA. Since you must always use the same excuse and deny them again, my answers have not changed. When you find the DULIA, HYPERDULIA and LATRIA for the golden calf and bronze serpent, then please let us read it for ourselves, thank you again."

Repeating the same thing is a very good device when you have nothing to say - and inviting me to repeat the same thing ad hominem is not helping your argument.

Lololol, okay try saying ' one was ------, and the other was ------' I mean that is how you try to explain the difference.

Again O. . let me repeat for your sake!  
~~  "God did not command anyone to worship either of them."

And where are the Catholics commanded to worship Mary in place of God or equivalent to God? (Now I know this isn't rocket science so you should be able to answer these question)

[i][/i][b][/b][color=#770077][/color] [font=Lucida Sans Unicode][/font]We sha, its a long Harangue. But i want to believe that you share in the, that comes after.
Cheers!!!

this is very very sad. This is what Paul ACTUALLY SAID!

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword?
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul ACTUALLY was saying death cannot separate us FROM THE LOVE OF GOD . . . not about separation from each other! How do you hypocrites butcher the bible this badly and think you can get away with it? The bible clearly says in Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

. . . the dead have no more portion FOR EVER in anything (including we the living) done under the sun! How then can death not separate us from?

Paul said we shld intercede for one another . . . no where did He tell us to intercede either for or on behalf of the dead.

HAHAHA This is just too funny. So when people die are they separated from the body of Christ?
I really want you to 'open' my eyes here.

You LIAR . . . read romans 8, Paul says no such thing. He says death cannot separate us from the LOVE OF GOD not the body of Christ! I am sick of bible twisters who build a theology on falsehood.

Ok so the body of Christ is separate from the Love of God. Oh I got it now. Lol. I got it.

@davidylan

. . . the dead have no more portion FOR EVER in anything (including we the living) done under the sun! How then can death not separate us from?

Paul said we shld intercede for one another . . . no where did He tell us to intercede either for or on behalf of the dead.

Go back and read your bible, o jare,

Matt. 17:2-3 And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.  And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.

Luke 15:7,10 – I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.

Rev. 8:3-4 – Another angel came and stood at the altar, 3 holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the holy ones, on the gold altar that was before the throne.  The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the holy ones went up before God from the hand of the angel.

Is not Jesus conversing with dead people.  My guy, do you think Moses and Elijah had no clue of the conversation they had with Jesus.  Or did they find out about it before or after they came to earth.

Who is it that is experiencing joy in heaven over our repentance?

In heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven.  So, these angels and saints have no clue as to what is going on here on earth.  Whose prayers are they sending up to God?

I'm sorry, ~Lady~, dulia has been given another meaning by you for convenience sake. Please consult the reference I gave you from the Catholic online Encyclopedia and see for yourself.

What different meaning did I give to dulia?

I'm used to such talk, actually. It might have helped if you pointed out how I twisted anything.

Well let's see stating that Catholics worship Mary as we would worship God. I believe that just about covers it.

I've seen enough in yours to skip them and deal with other worries of more particular notice.[/quote

Oh so yo've finally admitted it. And whatever doesn't agree with you is automatically a lie, because you ahappen to hold the truth. Whatever you don't understand must be a lie. Now I see where the problem is, you put too much confidence in yourself.

Bru-ha-ha-ha!! This Lady, I never knew you're so confused!! Please help me here, if you can -- which one are you arguing now:

~ Glory in Israel?
~ Glory of Israel?
~ Glory on Israel?

Okay seriously you need to read the Bible and read it well. They are used in different ways.
There is another instance where Glory of Jerusalem (Isreal) is used and that's in Judith.

~Lady~, just simply check the reference, it saves you such waist and empty brashness. Unless you can show us that it was not "Glory of Israel" but rather "Glory on/in Israel", then the Catholic list will include millions of liars from your accusation alleged against the point.

Maybe you need to learn to read what I write well. Glory on Israel also applies to Christ, and I believe I did show reference to that.
God is not the only one called Glory of Israel.

You are too quick to accuse others, you know; and I offer my many thanks for the compliment. I don't remember saying that the definition of Mariolatry was given by a Catholic website; what I offered was that dulia, hyperdulia, and latria are from Catholic websites.

However, even when we speak of Mariolatry, Catholics perfectly understand what we mean - so what's the problem with that? And yes, if you want to know, I got the meaning as commonly used among religious scholars - such as:

~ The PHRONTISTERY: (scroll down)
Mariolatry - worship of the virgin mother
Mariology - study of the Virgin Mary

~ YourDictionary.com
Mariolatry - veneration of the Virgin Mary, when regarded as carried
to an idolatrous extreme;

~ YourDictionary.com
Mariology - the branch of Christian theology that deals with the Virgin Mary.

Besides, those sites (PHRONTISTERY, YourDictionary.com) are not Protestant sites - they are used by even non-religious people; and when we speak of MARIOLOGY and MARIOLATRY, they all understand what we mean even among Catholics

Woman you must have forgotten that when I said that you do not quote from the Catholic website of mariolatry you stated that all you've gotten is from a catholic website you even posted newadvent from me.
The reason I am asking you to state what is on catholic website and not from any other is because too many people have confused mariolatry for mariology and they are not the same even if some people do not take the time to check it out.

Mariolatry is condemned by the Church and is not used anywhere in the Church, whether it be common term or not, you mislead people when you use it in reference to the Catholic Church. If you would state mariolatry you should also state that it is condemned also, so that people can get the full truth and not the half truth.

It doesn't matter if you and your catholic friends use the term and you need to have them know that it is condemned by the church.

Ever since the confusion of the term "worship" it is dropped by the Church when we use in converstation with others, why? because people are too used to the term used as in one way instead of in the broader term of it.

Just as if I were to say I am gay, I cannot because people do not associate gay with happy anymore, it is now homosexual, even though the proper way of using it is to say happy.

I believe that's where the confusion has been coming from, you associate worship with one way, and not in the full broad sense. I have been trying to avoid you from doing so, that's why I've been consistently telling you there are different forms or levels of it, and it can be used in different ways.

I did not edit or change anything - that is why I quoted them directly because I know you would react the same way panic-stricken Catholics have reacted in the past when I debated them. Please let's be simple in these matters and look at what your authorities have said:


As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).source: Catholic Encyclopedia - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15710a.htm

There! They called it the "worship", not the revisionist euphemism you have engineered here

That has been the problem, I believe you know that worship is in different forms and they are not equal, but you refuse to be truthful in your responses. Just because it is called worship does not make it rightfully for God. Once again the magistrates are called worship, but not in the form in which you view it.

And I really and strongly believe that you are deliberately trying to be deceitful. You do not address the definition of worship at all, and you know very well what latria, dulia, and hyperdulia are very different, but you refuse to be straightforward with it.

Na waoooh, this catholic thing no go fishish oooo, why not just preach christ and win souls to him than arguing about how MARY etc,

@~Lady~

You seem to know your stuff.  I commend you, keep up the work.

And I really and strongly believe that you are deliberately trying to be deceitful. You do not address the definition of worship at all, and you know very well what latria, dulia, and hyperdulia are very different, but you refuse to be straightforward with it.

Sadly, I'm starting to get the same feeling.  That's why I made the remark 'You can do better than that' a while back to pilgrim.1 about her knowingly posting the below without evening going into what is meant by 'worship' in the passage.

34. But let this holy city of Rome be the first to give the example, this city which from the earliest Christian era worshipped the heavenly mother, [You]its patroness[/You], with a special devotion. As all know, there are many sacred edifices here, in which she is proposed for the devotion of the Roman people; but the greatest without doubt is the Liberian Basilica, in which the mosaics of Our predecessor of pious memory, Sixtus III, still glisten, an outstanding monument to the Divine maternity of the Virgin Mary, and in which the "salvation of the Roman people" (Salus Populi Romani) benignly smiles. Thither especially let the suppliant citizens flock, and before that most sacred image let all put forth pious prayers, imploring especially that Rome, which is the principal city of the Catholic world, may also give the lead in Faith, in piety and in sanctity.

Source: "Fulgens Corona" - Encyclical of Pope Pius XII [from a Vatican website].

~Lady~:

HAHAHA This is just too funny. So when people die are they separated from the body of Christ?
I really want you to 'open' my eyes here.

this are serious issues . . . its a shame that you seem extremely reluctant to approach this from the standpoint of the bible. It is a lot more than pointing fingers . . . WHAT DID PAUL REALLY SAY AND DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT?

~Lady~:

Ok so the body of Christ is separate from the Love of God. Oh I got it now. Lol. I got it.

The body of Christ is not the same as the Love of God. wow! I mean must you cloak your lies with deliberate and false sarcasm?

Omenuko:

@davidylan

Go back and read your bible, o jare,

I was quoting Ecclesiastes 9. If that is not in your bible pls say so.

~Lady~:

Is not Jesus conversing with dead people. My guy, do you think Moses and Elijah had no clue of the conversation they had with Jesus. Or did they find out about it before or after they came to earth.

Jesus Christ IS GOD! He can converse with the dead because He created them but the bible is quite clear . . . YOU AS A MORTAL CANNOT CONVERSE WITH THE DEAD! ECCLESIASTES 9 IS MORE THAN ABUNDANTLY CLEAR!

~Lady~:

Who is it that is experiencing joy in heaven over our repentance?

Is that an excuse for the dead to appear to you? show me in the bible.

~Lady~:

In heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven. So, these angels and saints have no clue as to what is going on here on earth. Whose prayers are they sending up to God?

How does this address the question? Show me in the bible where dead people appearing to talk to the living is justified.

I'm not the one defining the term for Catholics - rather, your authorities are the ones who said: "the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia". Is that not clear enough, abi wetin we dey miss?

We're missing your clarification of worship. Be honest and post the full ways in which worship can be used.

Thanks for that attempt, but sorry - looking up at something is not to be mistaken for HYPERDULIA. And ahem. . . God nowhere said that they looked up to the serpent "for help" - this is your fabu, so please make another believable excuse.

Meanwhile, as defined by your Catholic encyclopedia, HYPERDULIA is "worship paid to her" - so, are you saying that HYPERDULIA was the case with the serpent because it was "worship paid to it?" You claimed hyperdulia for the serpent O. . . so please come back and let us confirm from you that you suppose serpent worship is part of your personal interpretation for what God never said!

So what were they looking up to it for? To see a bird? To see aeroplane? Were their eyes closed? Did they look up to it to die? Please clarify.

Will you please be truthful in what worship is? and stop twisting it to suit you.

Please give the full definition of worship.

I hear - so Jesus Christ was not Saviour at that point, abi? No, I did not accuse you, I'm only asking you. And if He was THE Saviour, how many Saviours do we have in Christianity?

Were they Christians? Was Jesus Christ there at that time? Why weren't they baptized like Christ? Where there two messiahs? One then and one now?
Was Jesus there?

DULIA is defined as "our worship of distinguished servants of God" by Catholic encyclopedia. Now, please show us where anyone ever worshipped man, cherubim, or serpent?

Go to england they do so. Go to their court, you will find plenty there. I believe they're called magistrates. Maybe then you will know what worship is.

(a) Jesus is not a graven image; your "must" is terrifyingly sad, because you're forcing your opinion to make Him such.

John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of man be lifted up (I believe those are Jesus' words)

John 3:34
The multitude answered him: We have heard out of the law, that Christ abideth for ever; and how sayest thou: The Son of man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of man?

So where is my own opinion in that?

b) NOBODY ever accorded the bronze serpent any "worship" of dulia or hyperdulia.

Then what was he serpent for? Decoration? In the desert?

c) To force this unfortunate musings upon Mary is to add what is not in Scripture for your own prejudices.

I believe the angel led the way for us when he called her "full of grace" and when Elizabeth called her "blessed amongst women" and when she herself said that "all generations shall call me blessed"

I believe she was elevated by the angel and elizabeth and herself, so no one forced anything on her.

Our birth from her is far better than from Eve. Our birth from Eve leaves us under the law but our birth from Mary gives us freedom, her We are co-heirs with her Son who is our brother, therefore she is our mother. What does the Bible say, that we should honour our mother and father.

If you have a problem showing her the honour she deserves, that is entirely your own, but I am not ashamed of it.

Please calmly show HOW I have misrepresented anything here, thank you.

You fail to clarify that there are different types of worship. you are deliberately being deceitful. you state the term 'worship' knowing full well that it can be misunderstood without making an effort to speak the truth about the term.

I've been through that before - please have the patience to see it in the other Catholic thread. Where are the verses for the Rosary, not some mumbled recitation with rubber beads? Who were the Christians in the Bible going about with a bead that you have failed to show us?

So are you saying that angel didn't say Hail full of grace and that Elizabeth didn't greet Mary as blessed are you among women?

I already gave you the verses for the Rosary, if you don't believe it, that's your own. Prove that the greeting of the angel and Elizabeth and the Lord's Prayer are not included in reciting the rosary.
If you want to insinuate that I am not being truthful, then please show that the angel greeting, elizabeth's greeting, the lord's prayer are not included in the rosary, and also show that what we meditate on is anything but scripture.
please i am waiting for you to prove it.
Show us "fully" what the rosary contains. I mean from beginning to end, from the first to the last.

Knock-knock. . . please can you wake up and come back to reality?   My discussions have not spun off that tangent the way you sparked off there. Where is dulia, hyperdulia, and latria for those graven images were the questions I asked O. . . not the baptism, birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry but I thought my response was a direct response to the rosary, or what you don't want people to know that the rosary consists of the scripture, i mean will it kill you if people know the truth?
You were the one that spoke of the rosary. Remember you said something along the line of no scripture for the rosary.
are you trying to push this behind the scenes so no one will see that you are clearly ignorant of a lot of things. i mean that is deceitful

Hehe. . . you meant to say they were "made up" but not in the Bible, kwo?   This is really funny! No wonder we have waited forever for you to post the verses!

Wow, are you saying that the birth of Jesus isn't in the bible, or that his death isn't in there or that his resurrection isn't in there? or that the angel didn't greet Mary, or that elizabeth didn't greet her?
I mean which one of those is not in the bible? or is it that the Lord's prayer isn't in the bible? which one isn't there again?

Eh? Who is advocating that prayer is wrong?    I no fit laff again O!

Um helloo, um YOU ARE THE ONE THAT THINKS THE ROSARY PRAYER IS WRONG, so that would make the answer to this question YOU

No, because we don't pratise Psalm 23 recitation on a number of beads, thank you! Anymore after-thoughts?

Oh so there's a verse that says that if you use beads to keep count of prayers, it's wrong? Please provide tahnks. There's a verse that says yo shouldn't count prayers?
I mean show me.
Because that's what the rosary is used for, it is to keep count, cause you know you can get confused using our fingers to count. and you can get so confused and try to figure out which scripture youre suposed to be meditating on again.

My dear, I thank you for the compliments. We all just wonder that you who shout it often has been most wanting in that very thing.

Lolol, yeah me who answers question, you who beats around the bush when confronted, yup I'm the one found wanting.

Thank you again for the homegirl. I suppose others will point you to where my answers are and help you to read.

First of all what is wrong with "homegirl' are you living in the bush somewhere where it's forbidden to say homie, or homegirl or homeboy,. But um I would really like it if someone can point out to me where you answered my questions. Because your answers of "I have already answered" is not an answer.

Thank you for the compliment again O. . . hehe!   If you can't read, wait and let others show you the answers I have given. Remain blessed.

ALL YA GOTTA DO, IS COPY AND PASTE. If you are truthful in saying you answered, COPY AND PASTE IT.

@~Lady~

You seem to know your stuff. I commend you, keep up the work.

Thanks ma'am same thing to you too.
I tell you God gave us a brain so that we can reason, that even though things are not in print we can be able to analyze and understand things.

No people want it in black and white, as if the bible was ever written to be in black and white. These same people that are here doing the show me in "black and white" are the ones telling muslims and atheists that it can't only be in "black and white"
Hypocrisy of it all.

Anyway dear, I am not one to just take man's word for it, so I feel very sorry for those Catholics she has led astray, they had everything in the Church, the teachings of Christ have not changed for 2000 years, even though plenty others have challenged it and have failed and have led themselves to utter confusion. The Church still stands, because Christ already said, "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it"

So they can stay here twisting things, the Church will stand till the end time. They might just want to focus on God instead of on what others are doing to praise God.

It's not by force to be in the Catholic Church o, people don't understand. But sha the devil will never rest even, he will always continue to try, and he will definitely use people, most especially those ones who think they know the Bible yet say that Christ nullifyied one of the ten commandments, so now there are only 9 o.

this are serious issues . . . its a shame that you seem extremely reluctant to approach this from the standpoint of the bible. It is a lot more than pointing fingers . . . WHAT DID PAUL REALLY SAY AND DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT?

oga ph.d. check the english language and then consult a psychologist before you start making assumptions as to what one is reluctant and not reluctant to do.

I know what Paul said, but I am trying to understand how the body of Christ is separate from the Love of God. It is YOU I am tryin to understand.

Paul said we cannot be separated from God, not even by death, if Jesus is God and we are his body, how then are we separated from each other?

I seriously thought that it was sin that could separate us. I seriously thought that Paul also said that we are one in the body of Christ.

Abeg tell me, when a person dies do they get separated from the body of Christ, are they no longer in Christ?
Does Christ have more than one body?
If the only thing that can separate us from Christ is sin, and these people die in Christ, how then are they separated?
Do the dead go sinning?

Please I want to understand master preacher. Teach me.

Even if I start quoting scripture to you, you won't understand, what good will it do when I know you don't understand, I am trying a new approach, and I am hoping that it wil work, it's called reason, hopefully it will work for you.

The body of Christ is not the same as the Love of God. wow! I mean must you cloak your lies with deliberate and false sarcasm?

Oh so Christ's body is separate from God's love. Oga please you are the one that holds the truth since I am the liar, so can you knidly break it down for me a commoner to understand, how it is that Christ is not Love of God.

I am ready to learn from you.

I was quoting Ecclesiastes 9. If that is not in your bible please say so.

Ecclesiastes 9 is the only verse in the Bible that speaks of the dead or those not on earth?
Psalm 103: 20-21 is asking those in heaven to bless the Lord and pray with us.
I remember Jesus Christ telling his disciples that they themselves will sit on the thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel, adn I remember St. John in Revelations telling us that there are 24 elders representing the Old and New Israel, the sons of Jacob (ISrael) and the apostles. So are they not in heaven? And are they separated from the body of Christ? Are they separated from Christ?
Hmm pastor preacher, you may want to read the bible well and ask the Spirit for guidance to be able to understand the past and the present and the future, instead of being too confident that you understand the bible that you come here and spew your own personal interpretation. The verses in the Bible have one meaning not several conradictory one o.
So many men of God should not contradict each other o. They should all know God is not contradictory o.

Jesus Christ IS GOD! He can converse with the dead because He created them but the bible is quite clear . . . YOU AS A MORTAL CANNOT CONVERSE WITH THE DEAD! ECCLESIASTES 9 IS MORE THAN ABUNDANTLY CLEAR!

Those in heaven are not dead, Christ promised us this thing called eternal life, you may have heard of it. We are no longer dead, but living, we may die in the flesh but we live with Christ.
I am looking forward to living with Christ.
You may look forward to dying but me I am looking forward to living o.

Is that an excuse for the dead to appear to you? show me in the bible.

Who said anything about the dead appearing? We've only stated that they hear our prayers, because they are with God (well at least some of them) and then we on earth pray for those in purgatory.
They don't have to appear to hear our prayers, she stated as an example the appearance of Moses and Elijah to Jesus to inform you that the dead can be in heaven.