₦airaland Forum

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
Pilgrim
I already explaine dearlier that what i mean is that i assumed you learnt about tithing based on law(that is how most churches preach it Malachi 3:10) and you later changed your views on tithing when you saw it could not be justified based on law, that is not to say i inferred that you said so on this thread or on nairaland( i assume you have a life outside nairaland) my inferals were merely assumptions and not an express statement miss quoting you. I think this is a simple case of not understanding each other hence i said maybe i did not epress my english well.

Lovable brother, let me allow the matter to rest. Regardless if what has happened, I just want those unbels who were affected negatively that inspite of opposing views, we can still find charity and peace among ourselves in Christ. Fair deal?

Same goes for Ovamboland - love, grace and peace to you so we can move forward, yes?

KunleOshob:
If it was just for you i won't bother answering this question because you already know the answer even though you have made futile attempts to punch holes in the answer but for the benefi of others who are reading this thread i would repost so thy would know the bible's true position on tithes

Well, I did not make any attempt to punch holes anywhere - that was why I had to go into detail to show repeatedly that "circumcision" was never treated in the same way as "tithes" in the NT. Not one time ever!

KunleOshob:
If you read the highlighted parts from verse 5 to 18 it would be crystal clear to everyone that the law that was describd as weak and useless in verse 18 is the tithe law earlier stated in verse 5. For full understanding, i urge all to read the whole chapter.

Let's get some things here clear:

(a) There was nothing in that chapter that says the "tithe law": so I can safely suppose you're dribbling it into that chapter to placate your own bias. What the chapter says is that the Levites had a commandment to take tithes of their brethren according to the Law - it does not say that they had "a Law to take tithes", but rather just "a commandment" to do so (verse 5).

(b) You cannot make "a commandment" (just one commandment) to be larger than it is - that singular commandment is not the same thing as the whole Law!

(c) The Law you are referring to here is the very same one that the people received under the Levitical priesthood according to verse 11 -

            If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood,
            (for under it the people received the law,)
            what further need was there that another priest should rise
            after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Now as such, you cannot assume that Abraham's tithes to Melchizedek fell under the Levitical order to pressume therefore that with the change of the Levitical priesthood, therefore the "law" has been changed and woosh! - no tithes! That is not what that chapter says at all.

(d) The tithes of Abraham to Melchizedek (verses 2, 4, 6) were never once based on any Law! Never!!!!!!!! It is for this reason that verse 8 makes clear that here men who die receive tithes - but THERE He receives them of whom it is testified that He LIVES PERPETUALLY!! How clear could that be, Kunle? Are you going to deny that very verse and allege that "no, he does not live perpetually and so does not receive them"?

When people quote Hebrews 7, they should be careful to keep the matters in their context - thank God you quoted it again, and even highlighting various words there did not show that tithe was once condemned - not a single time!

Now, let's look at them at your highlighted verses:

[list][list]

KunleOshob:
5And(A) those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers,[a] though these also are descended from Abraham.

[/list][/list]

[list][list]

KunleOshob:
12For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

[/list][/list]

[list][list]

KunleOshob:
18For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside(I) because of its weakness and uselessness

[/list][/list]

None of those verses say that Tithes have been condemned, made redundant, set aside or destroyed. Otherwise, you would have to come back and explain this bit in verse 8 ---

              8Furthermore, here [in the Levitical priesthood]
              tithes are received by men who are subject to death;

              while there [in the case of Melchizedek],
              they are received by one of whom it is testified
              that he lives [perpetually].

Kunle lovable bros, don't ignore that verse! All careful scholars agree that the Greek tense in that verse for Melchizedek is not "past tense" - but rather points to the One who LIVES PERPETUALLY!

Now, please let us know - Who is the One who LIVES PERPETUALLY, KunleOshob?

[center][size=14pt]Just WHO is that?!?[/size][/center]

Anticipating an honest answer, thanks.

huxley:
Is Tithing Biblical?

Thithing does appear in the bible, So yes, tithing is biblical. But it is not Christian. The tithes belong to ancient Israel. It was essentially their income tax.

People can argue all they can as much as they want, no wahala. The person who argues this matter based only on "ancient Israel" only fulfills what I have been saying all along - they cannot see anything else than the LEVITICAL priesthood!

huxley:
That was the biblical tithes. God commanded Israel to give 23.3% of their income every year, not 10%.

>pilgrim.1 whistles gently as she waits for the arguments on tithe being ONLY 10%!! where are the takers in this forum for 23.3% as tithe?<

huxley:
With the dead of Jesus, . .

There is no "dead of Jesus". . it is the "death of Jesus" (and His resurrection).

huxley:
all ceremonial codes that belonged to the Jews were nailed to the cross and buried, never to be used again to
condemn us. For this reason, we never see Christians tithing in the NT, just as we don't see them sacrificing goats, bull to cover their sins.

[size=14pt]Hahaheehaw!![/size]    

This guy is the comedian of the year!  What have I been saying over and over again?!? Look away from the old covenant, brethren - it has never justified anybody - Old Testament or New Testament!! The tithes were never about JUSTIFICATION - and to keep our hearts so strung up on the "ceremonial codes" is to show how rigid people can think on very simple matters.

Well done!

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
@pilgim.1
It is either you have deliberately refused to understand my post or my expression of the english language is not good enough, either way there is nothing to argue about.

There's no English that could be understood other than the express way you deliberately alleged a false statement against me. It is not a vice to admit your fault.

KunleOshob:
For clarities sake i never stated that you based your tithing on law any where on this thread.

Then what was the meaning of this statement from you:

[list][list]

KunleOshob:
The truth is that my dear sister(Pilgim.1) having long realized that tithing can never be justified based on law (even though she keeps refering to it) she had to look for another way to justify it hence the inferals to Melchizedek's priesthood and the one off free will, non obligatory, unsolicited and un commanded tithes which he received from Abraham.

[/list][/list]

How else would you have expected me to understand that statement against me directly and then come back to emphasise it yet again with: [list][list]

KunleOshob:
In other wards what i was saying basically is that you changed from tithing based on law because i suspect that like every other person it, was introduced to you based on law.

[/list][/list]

If what you were basically saying was directly stating that I had changed from tithing based on Law, could you tell me WHAT I changed from?!?

KunleOshob:
As far as hebrew 7 is concerned i woudn't even bother to clearify further because it is so glaring what was being talked about and the law clearly refered to in verse 5. Judging from the content of your posts i can safely conclude that you are a very intelligent young woman and it shouldn't be to difficult to understand the implication of that passage if you apply your mind to it

Please quote me the direct verse that condemned TITHES. I am begging you, lovable brother.

Shalom.

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:
Okay! Okay! i see

Abraham waged armed warfare to gather the spoils are we called as christians to emulate that too?

What did the Bible call it - STEALING? From "pagan" now to warfare, not so? That is how you exemplify the "superiority of Christ" after your pagan allegation, ba? Well done. The more you snake your tongue on your godless attitude, the more you knot your testimony as a Christian in misery. This is not about me - so accuse all you can; at the end of the day, you will give account of yourself to HIM, not to pilgrim.1.

Ovamboland:
He put his wifes maid in the family way as suggested by his wife, is that another christian ractice we can lift and apply today?

How does that connect with Melchizedek, please? You see how frantic and foolish you fellows can be just because of a churning in your disdain for God's Word. Keep it up.

Ovamboland:
He made burnt animal sacrifice to God, before Levitical law, can we borrow a leaf from that today?

Has pilgrim.1 been basing her persuasions on tithes on the Levitical priesthood? Just be honest to yourself for once!

Ovamboland:
We can go on and on but needless.

Bring them on! I could sit here and waste your foolishness as much as you desire.

Ovamboland:
Our refrence to Abraham is as regards his absolute faith in God to bring His covenant to pass, not in his offerings or his tenth of spoils to the High priest

Frantic dump shout! Did I say anything opposite to the FAITH of Abraham? have you read Galatians 3:7?

Meanwhile, what has happened to the answers to my two questions?

sleekymag:
@ Gamine,
>snip<

. . So you don't have to be saddened, except its one of ur ways to just infuriate Pilgrim.1

@sleekmag,

Lol, I don't think she meant it deliberately, though. My apologies to her, to you and all others for raising my voice in bold there - I should not have done that. I hope after my last post in reply to hers, the issue is clear now? She may not have seen where I posted some of the things she has helped us to acknowledge in few words.

Anyway, how are you doing? Grace.

@Gamine,

Gamine:
Ok, Pilgrim.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

i just do not see where arguments are coming from now

No worries, dearie. I apologise for raising my voice in bold there - would have simply passed it, but you just can't imagine what unbels around me are saying and laughing just now. Not about you, Gamine - but it saddens me that some of us find it difficult to state issues in simple honesty.


Anyways, hugs.

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:
As much as Pilgrim tries to parry and deny her motivation for 'tithing the truth keeps surfacing.

Dear Ovamboland, if ever I had wanted to deny my motivation for tithing, I would not have posted them at all in this thread - HERE and HERE.

Why is it that you people must always resort to a bold-faced and blatant LIE just to push your restless souls? Is truth is strange word in your type of Christianity? Why do you have to keep shamelessly bleaching your duplicity in a public forum as a Christian?

KunleOshob:
i already answered your questions in post number 1704

You did not answer my questions - and please oblige me an honest answer to clear your accusation against me. I already saw your reposte (#1704), and you still emphasised the same accusations and gave no answers to my question:

KunleOshob:
In other wards what i was saying basically is that you changed from tithing based on law because i suspect that like every other person it, was introduced to you based on law.

This was my question: [list][list]1. Please, please and please, Kunle - can you show me anywhere in this thread where I ever tried to "justify" tithes on the LAW?

Since you are making the claim now that I had to "look for another way", it suggests that I had been justifying tithes on the Law and perhaps "realizing" that has failed, I had to "look for another way". [/list][/list]

Now, if you acknowledge that I NEVER justified tithes on Law at anytime, WHY are you so driven to misrepresent me with such an allegation? Is this the type of thing we ought to do to oursleves as CHRISTIANS - to deliberately make false allegations against our brethren because we don't agree with some of the things they say?

In the past where people have said so many things against pilgrim.1, I have teasingly laughed it off. But you have no clue what damage you are doing to yourself here. There are people who are reading these matters who may not be members of Nairaland - I live and work among a lot of unbelievers, and when they read the way we Christians often make false claims against one another, it just makes me wonder the so-called "liberty" we noise abroad and yet cannot hold ourselves in simple honesty!

This was why I kept saying that we sometimes make pagans laugh at our testimony as Christians, because here you are demonstrating that some people can descend so low to godlessness just to win an argument! This is not about me, Kunle - in the past I can show you many things people have called me. But the reason why I had to call your attention to clear this up is more serious than you realize - and the case will be pointed out soon to you.

KunleOshob:
As to where tithing was specifically condemned in the NT, we hav been there before though you still argued Hebrews 7: 5-18 deals exclusively with it and the laws under which the tithing law fell where not only anulled but described as weak and useless. And what even makes it more interesting is that the practise of tithing was used as an example before the whole law was anulled in verses 12, 15-18

I am still waiting for the verse where the NT SPECIFICALLY condemned tithes. Please quote that verse with the word "tithes" in condemnation.

Where I made a case for circumcision, I made clear with direct quotes, such as:

                1 Corinthians 7:19
                Circumcision is nothing,
                and uncircumcision is nothing,
                but the keeping of the commandments of God.

But where in the NT did God's Word specifically mention TITHES in about the same way, Kunle? Where in Hebrews 7 did it condemn tithes the way you guys are doing?

MC Usman:
". . those who distort words from their (proper) places (i.e., usages)." (Qur’an 4:46).

"those who distort words" . .are you not doing that very thing?

Ovamboland:
16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Can you honestly say you were not describing yourself by that verse after referring to Abraham's tithes as "pagan" and then using that same matter as an example for the superiority of Christ? So your Christian life is a pagan ceremony by extension?

@Ovamboland,

I also asked you some questions, for which I would very much appreciate your answers. If you are not willing to discuss, please look elsewhere before you take issues out of hand for yourself. Thank you.

@KunleOshob,

Please I asked you two questions for which I would very much like you to clear yourself. Accusing me the way you did is no way to show your Christian virtue. Please oblige, thanks.

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
This excerpts from my previous link clearly depicts the pagan origin of tithes. The Abrahamic tithes my dear pilgrim.1 is fond of refering to.

Thank you. I am not the one accusing Abraham's TITHES as pagan - you and your brethren are. After you have done so, you have the sanctimonious nerve to come back and present that same "pagan" allegations as an example for the superiority of Christ's priesthood! May God forgive you and Ovamboland - you don't have to be extreme just because you don't want to tithe. This is the kind of foolishness that will make the pagans laugh at your testimony. Well done.

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:
Verse 10 says ' especially the circumcision group' which indicates there many other false teaching as sister pilgrim is trying to ram down our throat with lenthy posts.

Dear brother, I have not rammed anything down your throat, please be honest if you actually pass for a Christian. It is not a virtue to be deliberately dishonest, please. If anyone has been saying anything, I have repeatedly said that I am not making anyone to bend their necks to my persuasions for tithing. Did you miss that? Why this silly dishonesty on your part?

Secondly, please before you come back foolishly drivelling again, go back and read what I said about circumcision. Read the references I clearly laid out - see if I had forced a word that was not there, and then come back and help us see that my thoughts about circumcision are wrong. That way, you will help others if you don't want help for yourself.

But note also that I never equated Circumcision with Tithes - why? Because the Bible does not do such a thing. if you are not convinced, then come back and I have a simple question for you.

Ovamboland:
There are my of such unprofitble teachings as Paula White teaching us to wait for Jewish Yom Kippur day and go for 'our' day of Atonement ofcourse you must come with your 'offering' unto the Most High

I am not Paula White; and if you have misgivings with her, you can write directly to her ministry.

Cheers.

@Gamine,

Gamine:
Pilgrim, i can't believe that through all these long posts

You can't understand that a Christians giving is motivated by Love, Faith, Gratitude e.t.c

Same things that motivated Abraham.

i don't know why we have to keep going back and forth.

its saddening me o

Dear Gamine, I have said and detailed those very things so many times in the past. But since many people refuse to read them and then try to read their own palava into my replies, I stopped trying to repeat myself and now approach one simple thing: let them confuse themselves as much as they want, and then come back and wash their faces.

How could anyone suppose that I could not understand that our giving has been by faith love and gratitude? Just pleeeeeeaaase tell me?! I was not going to post my persuasions for tithing because I did not want to make it a statute for others; but how come you are now accusing me of this, Gamine? How could you do such a thing?

I have noted again and again that my persuasion to tithe is not based on any Law - I did not make it any Law - I said clearly that it was by faith - I quoted as well both John 8:39 and Galatians 3:7. . . . ALLL THESE THINGS I HAVE SHARED ALREADY - and yet, you come back accusing me like this?!?


Just what is it that is in my posts that has not clearly mentioned thsi matter of [size=14pt]FAITH?!?[/size]

If I have done so repeatedly, then WHY accuse me of what I am not guilty of?

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:
Very good, we are no longer under the law. However we not just opposed to Pilgrim's views (Melchisedek connection) but to the prevalent teaching in many churches today whose basis for tithing is Malachi 3:10 with the attendant curses for non-compliance. Giving a tenth of spoils was a prevalent pagan practice of Abraham's time it' not unusual to give tribute to a higher kings or priest for protection and prayers. The tenth was from poils of war not increase from his personal property or income. If Abraham's example for giving a tenth is to be followed why not follow what he did the the remainng 90%? Gen 14:22 -24

There's something I would like to show you guys on Abraham in Genesis 14; but I doubt that you fastidious miserly excuses would once again blind you to your drivels. I have said so many times already: pilgrim.1 is not concerned with what any church today is doing with Malachi 3 to curse any Christians!!! To keep using this matter as your soft ball for the hypocrisy that you cannot take care of yourself is hardly surprising!

Ovamboland:
Paul's refrence in Hebrew 7 to Abraham's tithe here is not to teach the desireability of tithing; he only laid a premise to show the superiority of Christ's priesthood vis avis the levitical priesthood that the jews and some gentiles were familiar with. Paul's objective is crystal clear except for mischeif or dishonesty of latter day tithe teachers (gospel is not for material gain).

I'm sorry to say - this id one of those times I have to say agains that your statement is daft!! Thrice a million times daft! How on earth could you refer to Abraham's tithing at first as a PAGAN rite, and then hypocritically come back to say that Paul was using that same event to show the superiority of Christ? Are you so silly that you cannot even hold a consistent position because you must by default find problems in every statement tithers make? I never heard this type of rigid two-facedness coming from a Christian until today!

Bros, please tell me: was Abraham's tithing to melchizedek a PAGAN rite or not? if not, why did you try to equate it as such earlier before coming here to pretend another directly opposite thing? How dare you reduce it to such a level and then try to spring it up on a different pan altogether?

This is the one problem I find with these fellows arguing against tithes! You make all sorts of noise, make categorical statements that you can't defend; some of your brethren even go to extreme lengths to condemn tithers to HELL; and here you are swinging from one end of equating Abraham's tithe in Genesis as a "pagan" rite only to come back in the next line to say it was rather to demonstrate something of Christ's superiority! Daft!

Ovamboland:
Sister Pilgim, need we resort to outright falsehood to make a point?

Why don't you simply go to Scripture and fetch the answers to my simple questions? Why all this pagan ducking?

Ovamboland:
The refrence in 1 Cor 9: 13 is simply taking are of the personal needs (not WANTS) of workers in vineyard and does not ORDAIN ANYTHING because if you read to the end of that chapter Paul elected not to depend on such handouts. Tithe (read tenth) is not ordained here.

Ahh, now you convince me that you haven't read the Bible. Two things for you:

1. Please open your Bible - please open it - and s-l-o-w-l-y read 1 Corinthians 9:14 from --

       the KJV,
       BBE,
       Darby,
       DRB,
       EMTV,
       ESV,
       God's WORD,
       ISV,
       RV,
       Webster,
       NIV,
       HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible) versions -

. . . and then let me know if you could not find the words "ordained" and "command" in that verse!

2. Please go over verse 13 again and quote for me what OT scripture paul was referring to when he wrote that verse.

You only sound this way because you have never taken the time to study this passages and then you come back making these childish noise just because you want to force yourself to disagree by dint of what you have been spoonfed. I am wating for your answers to those exercises - you fail to show them, I might rubbish your caterwauls next time.

Ovamboland:
Temple and alter refrence here is to make the point clear by comparing with what the jews and gentiles can easily understand. He is neversaying christians should erect Temples and Altars onwhich tithes is to be dropped.

Did I say anywhere that Paul wanted Christians to erect Temples? Did I say so? You see your problem? What I never said is what you guys will read into other people's posts and then begin to shout from the air! Did I say what you're inferring here, Ovamboland?

Ovamboland:
If you understand your stand in Christ, you will know your pastor to whom you lay your tithes is only excersising his spiritual gift to teach as you can excercise your say prophesy if you desire and God wills to give you Rom 12: 1 - end. Your pastor is not your priest after Christ or Melchisedek order; you are part of the same body, we are all priest and Christ our High Priest. We are to offer our bodies as living sacrifice not our Tithe right?

Thanks for the lecture - but I would rather that you asked me questions about my stand in Christ next time before you assume I don't know. Besides, you often hold this empty talk about giving yourself and nothing more - good: when you are done preaching your poverty, let me know.

Ovamboland:
There is no refrence saying there is faith attached to this example Abraham for anything.

Phew. I am seriously sorry for this fellow.    Ovamboland, dear brother. . . I should not have ben so hard on you previously, because only now did I come to understand that you have not read your Bible. So, I would only ask you: should I show you where the example of Abraham was on faith? I'm sure that I'm not the only one who knows that. It does not pay to just start arguing where you have not read and studied your Bible O.

Ovamboland:
He was already rich and could mobilse men to defeat 4 kingdoms and continue to be rich thereafter. His faith is in God's abilty is to fulfil His promise to make him father of many nations even when at advanced age he had no child of His own. And also to follow the expressed WORD of God as presented in Genesis.

yada-yada-yada! U don finish? Abraham gave tithes to melchizedek - God said so, and I'm satisfied thereto.

Ovamboland:
Pilgrim, dear sister, if you decide in our heart to GIVE 10% of your monthly or weekly income to the body of Christ, you have given according to the measure of faith God has given you Rom 12: 3. It is not an ordinace or practice to be taught or instituted. It is not TITHE Abrahamic or Levitical but by the spirit as a gift.

What are you saying here now? Have you made sense at all to yourself? Did I institute tithes anywhere? So, if you recognize that my tithes are a matter of the Spirit as a gift, WHY on earth are you so disturbed by my TITHING? Have I asked you to bend your neck to my tithing?

Ovamboland:
Christian GIVING is by your measure  faith, as you are able to, seeking to defend the indefensible practice prevalent nowadays is an act of DISHONESTY.

I am still waiting for you guys to clear your dishonesty! Please take the time (even if na forever) and answer my simple questions - then we go see where una go bleach your own dishonesty reach.

Thank you.

KunleOshob:
The truth is that my dear sister(Pilgim.1) having long realized that tithing can never be justified based on law (even though she keeps refering to it) she had to look for another way to justify it hence the inferals to Melchizedek's priesthood and the one off free will, non obligatory, unsolicited and un commanded tithes which he received from Abraham.

Dear Kunle,

I would like to go it soft on you because you're still wet behind the ears. I enjoy a good rapport with all, but when they want to keep pushing their hypocrisies, then they are asking for what they can't sustain if handed back to them.

That said, I would like you to do just two things for me - you don't have to be sacred; but if you fail to do so and come back with this sort of hypocrisy, I might no alternatives than to be firm with you also. here are my two simple request:

1. Please, please and please, Kunle - can you show me anywhere in this thread where I ever tried to "justify" tithes on the LAW?

Since you are making the claim now that I had to "look for another way", it suggests that I had been justifying tithes on the Law and perhaps "realizing" that has failed, I had to "look for another way". Please Kunle, I would like you to please bring out where I ever justified tithes on the old covenant. Failure to do so would mean only one thing: you would have to come back and remove that fib in your carping - or I would go back and highlight your caterwauls. I promise you that!


2. Can you show me anywhere in the NT where God ever condemned tithes or made them redundant?

Again, if you fail to find only one verse where "tithes" are specifically mentioned as being condemned, I might have to come back and waste your arguments once more and bleach this ribald hypocrisy that you guys have dyed yourselves with. I don't want to treat you fellows that way; but if you keep pushing these blind-bat lifestyle and force yourselves to pass these fibs incessantly, you would leave me no choice to be firm towards you.

Cheers.

I'm sorry for you, my dear brother. No matter how many times or how simple one can afford to be on this matter, you still can't get it. Go and learn to be of a simple heart and then you will be able to see the difference between the old covenant and the OT.

Ovamboland:
2)How come Jesus, Peter, John, Matthew, Luke, Paul et al failed to teach us our christianly duty to pay tithe as a derivative of and following Abraham's example to Melchisedek?

That's another 21st century daft musing I ever heard! Matthew 23:23 is an example that has you guys confused. Hebrews 7:8 is another. Whatever is the case, you will not find anywhere in the NT where God condemned tithes or made them redundant. NOT ONE VERSE!!

I have made a simple request for you guys to show me where He ever condemned tithes - just one verse - and yet, you guys keep coming back vacant of answers and yet loaded with your miserly excuses. If you have nothing for your drivel, the best you could so is save your unnecessary remarks and go back to read your Bible. When you are done, please find me that one verse where God ever condemned tithes or made it redundant. Just ONE VERSE, thank you.

Already, I shared that whatever God wanted us to know were discouraged as Christian practice, He made it clearly known in Scripture:

~ Jewish circumcision rites
~ Jewish sabbath ceremonies
~ Jewish food laws
~ Jewish festivities:
● new moons
● days
● months
● years
● drinks and meats
● divers washings

. . and several other specifically mentioned issues. More than that, I showed where these were mentioned in the NT, quoting the verses to show where God's Word categorically showed that He would not have us be engaged in them.

However, for those looking for a short cut for their laziness, after trying to legislate on God's behalf to condemn what He never condemned, and make redundant what He never made redundant, I have waited for just one verse where God ever treated tithes the way they have done! The silliest thing I ever heard (outside this forum and later here on this thread) was that Paul used "circumcison as a metaphor for the Law" - whereas, even a baby knows that is not the case.

You see, the fear for these brethren is that they base their assumptions on what nobody has been saying, and from the false and pretentious premise then seek to attack tithes. Nobody is saying that tithes are mandatory - but no, these brethren will keep harping forever on that same "mandatory"! Tell them that tithes being voluntary are not based on the ordinaces of the old covenant under the Levitical priesthood - and they will still come back harping that it is a dangerous thing to seek the Levitical priesthood! Sometimes I'm at a loss as to what really is at the base of their fear?!? Why the panic? How could anyone say that Christians who tithe are going down the road to HELL? What a foolish thing to say - but that is because such people are too driven with their hypocrisy to even think for a minute!

Another fear that some have unfoundedly assumed is that false teachers use tithes to empty people's pockets! What a childish thing to say! The devil is smarter than that, you know - those who are making merhcnadise of the brethren are using something other than tithes to rob others! TITHES ARE NOT THE REAL PROBLEM!! Go and find out and you will see why the enemy has produced this lie and made it a matter of tithes! I shall come back and share more on this, and then I would like to see the reaction of those who keep harping endlessly about this matter to condemn what God never once condemned!

Ovamboland:
Pilgrim mentioned stewardship as one reason to pay tithe
My response: Our christian stewardship is not called to deliver money, food, offerings to an alter but to deliver lost souls to the Kingdom

Another confused fellow preaching his sanctimonious poverty! You're a laugh, and when you have learnt the real calling of a believer, come back and let's talk.

Shalom.

Hi @Ovamboland,

I hope you had a good weekend?

Ovamboland:
My answer: No such teaching is intended or existed and can only be man's teaching/false doctrine

When people want to discuss any matter on this subject, it would be appreciated that they share their views without trying to hang their lives on personal disaffection towards anybody - and more so when trying to refer to my submissions. Before you write me off as teaching false doctrine (and I appreciate your criticisms), be sure to hold your answers and not duck when I ask simple questions. Failure to do so before you drive rough with your overblown ego will mean that you're inviting what you can't sustain when I take you to task - and believe me, I don't care what hole you crawled out from, I shall spare nothing at all to bleach your santimonious drivel. I hope for the umpteenth time you are clear about my no-nonsense attitude to such drool from you guys? Good.

That said, I shall only note a few things once again and ask the same questions I have asked but have not seen your answers:

Ovamboland:
Does God want christians to tithe according to the pattern set by Abraham's tenth given to Melchisedek?

Yes, so says sister Pilgrim.

1) How come Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Malachi failed to notice this occurence?

You failed to notice that they did, and your oversight should not be used as a confirmation for your opinions. Since you mentioned Jacob, my simple question is this: where did Jacob (grandson of Abraham) get the idea to tithe in Genesis 28:22? Bear in mind that he was a direct descendant of Abraham, no?

And Moses? I'm sure you're quite vacant of thought and reason to have missed the fact that he was the writer of the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy); and when he came to Genesis 14, you might as well be wondering that Moses skipped that chapter, no?

What about Malachi? Dear sir, did you fail to see that tithes were mentioned in Malachi 3? The prophet was not speaking his own ideas, mind you - and as a prophet speaking the direct prophetic word of God, you must have been reading another book to have failed to notice that he also mentioned that subject in that book?

What about Joshua? Perhaps you're hoping to read the word "tithe" in every line of the book of Joshua before your conscience is appeased about this subject, ba? Hang on dude, did you have the idea that Joshua would have been doing anything differently from what God charged him in Joshua 1:8 ("Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest"?!? I guess in your small world, Joshua would have heard such a charge from the LORD and then started disregarding certain matters (including tithes) by not doing according to "all the Law"?!?

And Isaac - Abraham's son? Would it be wrong to say that Abraham's tithes to Melchizedek also affected him if the Bible says that Levi who was even then in Abraham's loins could have paid tithes to Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:9-10?

So, pilgrim.1 is persuaded that we could follow Abraham's example to tithe - and she believes so, because there was nothing wrong in the statement that the Lord Jesus made in John 8:39 - "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." Abraham lived a life of faith, and those who follow the same example of faith are called the children of Abraham (Galatians 3:7).

This is not a matter set on a rigid legalism which has been churning in your hearts: I'm not asking you to give me what to tithe with, and you can choose to withdraw and withhold your hands. No worries. But why are you so disturbed that by my simple faith to decide in my heart to set something aside "in proportion to" my income? Am I asking to dip my hands in your empty pocket?

What is the problem with your guys that you cannot sleep and must always be disturbed every single time about this matter when no one is taking any money on this forum from you for their tithes? Are you afraid of your own poverty - which perhaps explains why you are so fussy about this issue and yet have no simple answers to simple questions I have asked? Relax - my tithing is not your death warrant, you hear?

Ovamboland:
And if they did why did they not teach it to their offspring and the Prophets reminding the people their duty as derived from Abraham? Oh! sorry they operated Old covenant/LAW. Lets leave them.

I'm sorry for you, my dear brother. No matter how many times or how simple one can afford to be on this matter, you still can't get it. Go and learn to be of a simple heart and then you will be able to see the difference between the old covenant and the OT.

@huxley,

huxley:
4) Abandon your family and follow me. (Matt 10:21.

10) Advocated passiveness to unwarranted aggression and oppression.

huxley:
Help rid the world of falsehoods which for many generation have been the scourge of humankind.

Perhaps we should start by ridding the world of atheistic falsehoods of pretending it has always been about religion and saying nothing about atheistic murders, no?

In anycase Matthew 10:21 does not advocate the abandoning of family to follow Christ -

And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death,
and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents,
and cause them to be put to death.

Does that sound like "abandoning" family?

Besides, the other verses cited:
Matt 8:21, Matt 10: 34-37, Matt 19: 29, Matt 23:9
Matt 24: 19, Mark 10: 29 - 30,
. . please see if the highlighted are stating the same thing you had intoned.

Is this how to present atheistic honesty?

huxley:
Sorry, what question did you ask? I did not intend to avoid it. Can you restate it, please?

Could you just tell me what you hope to gain from this exercise?

huxley:
Atheism does not claim omnipotence/omniscience.

We've been done with that refrain too many times. Does anyone need omnipotence to answer my simple question? Why this ducking?

huxley:
Pilgrim, how many of these do you live by and advocate?

I asked a simple question, and if the best thing to keep doing is to be so passionate pretending not to notice, would I be obliged to keep playing these games? Is that what one should be tends to being honest?

huxley:
It is concievable that he might have, given he was so close to the Catholic church.

I don't know if the best you expect us to hold is a guess. Did he or he did not?

huxley:
If he did, would he have been forgiven?

Is that any different from this:[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=183994.msg2966177#msg2966177 date=1224454157]On condition that he repented - did he?[/quote]

huxley:
This means that Hitler, as long as he did not sin against the HS was pardonable.

On condition that he repented - did he?

huxley:
Can god create a square circle?

Has atheism done so?

huxley:
You can start with these, baba:

1) I did not come to bring peace BUT a SWORD. (Matthew 10:34)

2) Do NOT go into the towns of the Gentiles (Matt 10: 5)

3) I was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:22-28)

4) Abandon your family and follow me. (Matt 8:21, Matt 10:21. Matt 10: 34-37, Matt 19: 29, Matt 23:9
Matt 24: 19, Mark 10: 29 - 30,

5) Caused suffering to innocent animals by inflicting demons on them (Matt 8:28; Mark 5:1; Luke 8:26
)

6) Advocated the killing of recalcitrant children

7) Advocated and upheld the laws of the Old Testament (Matt 5)

8-) Advocated eternity in hell

9) Advocated a life without planning for the morrow (Matt 6: 31- 34)

10) Advocated passiveness to unwarranted aggression and oppression.

11) Killed an innocent tree for not having fruits out of season

13) Advocated the maiming of bodily parts to avoid sin.

huxley:
This is not about atheism. It is about examining the claims of the bible.

Of course. . haven't I heard that "examining the claims" repeatedly? And the result should be. . ?

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:
My dear you know say I no go try to deliberately deceive you na, as my command of english reach na so I go try explain myself. Anyway a case hits close to home, just after that doc removed my tooth, I was waiting to get me drugs and still had gauze in my mouth the nurse comes up to me and brought out a copy of watchtower and started preaching to me. I say chei I don die, today of all days wey i no fit talk, I could only nod yes or no.

hmm, . . I don't know about others; but em. . I don't feel very warm about that, for it doesn't seem that she was even sensitive to your situation. If she had only handed the tract to you, could make more sense than to put you through the grindmill. I might be wrong as well - who knows.

Chrisbenogor:
So how about we deal with the issue of Jehova's witnesses not collecting blood? what do you think?

U wan make I buy market?

lol, nah. . I'm not going there for now - until later.

Chrisbenogor:
This girl and english sha

Hmm, [color=Black]d[/color]em don konk me tire for my diction. henceforth, I go mellow. . what do you say?

@Aloy.Emeka,

[quote author=Aloy.Emeka link=topic=183994.msg2966060#msg2966060 date=1224452576]I do not know where you got this information but . . .

. . . What nonsense?

Get your info right before broadcasting them here because it makes you look absolutely stupid because you are so bent on villifying them.[/quote]All you need to do is visit those links - the absolutely stupid thing not to have done so. Those "nonsense" are posted on the world.wide.web for the whole world to see - and that's where I got them from. Just in case: there's a little less "stupid" thing we could all do - search a little more on our own, and then confirm the case independently for ourselves. That's all. No ills, no hard feelings - just confirm it independently for yourself.

Grace.

_______________________________________________________


Edit:

[quote author=Aloy.Emeka link=topic=183994.msg2966060#msg2966060 date=1224452576]I do not know where you got this information but MOST catholics do not believe that mary is the third person in the trinity.[/quote]Well, I noted that the case does not apply to all catholics, as evidenced by this statement:

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=183994.msg2965968#msg2965968 date=1224451450]No. He only showed where the misconception was for most people - that it is what some Catholics believe.[/quote]

huxley:
Does any of this suggest that your omniscient god knows what he is doing?   He goes about his bumbling business, not planning for the errors he has already made, only to have to rush later and rejig to rescue an already doomed mission.

Atheists are not omniscient, we agree. They don't make any claim to morality etc. We grant that. But this hubris to be always harping on others' "bumbling business" and pretending not to have noticed the atheistc blooper with blood dripping in their hands (without a moral claim) smarks of tartuffery, No? I don't see how your claim to invite a discussion is consistent here. Well done.

Chrisbenogor:
Knew you would come through, told you what I try to achieve before no need to re hash it enjoy.

Suspected it would play out that way. Cheers.