To Tithe or Not to Tithe? - Christianity Etc (54)

To Tithe or Not to Tithe? - Christianity Etc (54) - Nairaland

Nairaland Forum › Nairaland General › Christianity Etc › To Tithe or Not to Tithe? (67939 Views)

1 2 3 ... 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 ... 64 Reply (Go Down)

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 3:29pm On Oct 20, 2008

Hi @Ovamboland,

I hope you had a good weekend?

Ovamboland:
My answer: No such teaching is intended or existed and can only be man's teaching/false doctrine

When people want to discuss any matter on this subject, it would be appreciated that they share their views without trying to hang their lives on personal disaffection towards anybody - and more so when trying to refer to my submissions. Before you write me off as teaching false doctrine (and I appreciate your criticisms), be sure to hold your answers and not duck when I ask simple questions. Failure to do so before you drive rough with your overblown ego will mean that you're inviting what you can't sustain when I take you to task - and believe me, I don't care what hole you crawled out from, I shall spare nothing at all to bleach your santimonious drivel. I hope for the umpteenth time you are clear about my no-nonsense attitude to such drool from you guys? Good.

That said, I shall only note a few things once again and ask the same questions I have asked but have not seen your answers:

Ovamboland:
Does God want christians to tithe according to the pattern set by Abraham's tenth given to Melchisedek?

Yes, so says sister Pilgrim.

1) How come Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, Malachi failed to notice this occurence?

You failed to notice that they did, and your oversight should not be used as a confirmation for your opinions. Since you mentioned Jacob, my simple question is this: where did Jacob (grandson of Abraham) get the idea to tithe in Genesis 28:22? Bear in mind that he was a direct descendant of Abraham, no?

And Moses? I'm sure you're quite vacant of thought and reason to have missed the fact that he was the writer of the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy); and when he came to Genesis 14, you might as well be wondering that Moses skipped that chapter, no?

What about Malachi? Dear sir, did you fail to see that tithes were mentioned in Malachi 3? The prophet was not speaking his own ideas, mind you - and as a prophet speaking the direct prophetic word of God, you must have been reading another book to have failed to notice that he also mentioned that subject in that book?

What about Joshua? Perhaps you're hoping to read the word "tithe" in every line of the book of Joshua before your conscience is appeased about this subject, ba? Hang on dude, did you have the idea that Joshua would have been doing anything differently from what God charged him in Joshua 1:8 ("Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded thee: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper whithersoever thou goest" wink

?!? I guess in your small world, Joshua would have heard such a charge from the LORD and then started disregarding certain matters (including tithes) by not doing according to "all the Law"?!?

And Isaac - Abraham's son? Would it be wrong to say that Abraham's tithes to Melchizedek also affected him if the Bible says that Levi who was even then in Abraham's loins could have paid tithes to Melchizedek in Hebrews 7:9-10?

So, pilgrim.1 is persuaded that we could follow Abraham's example to tithe - and she believes so, because there was nothing wrong in the statement that the Lord Jesus made in John 8:39 - "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." Abraham lived a life of faith, and those who follow the same example of faith are called the children of Abraham (Galatians 3:7).

This is not a matter set on a rigid legalism which has been churning in your hearts: I'm not asking you to give me what to tithe with, and you can choose to withdraw and withhold your hands. No worries. But why are you so disturbed that by my simple faith to decide in my heart to set something aside "in proportion to" my income? Am I asking to dip my hands in your empty pocket?

What is the problem with your guys that you cannot sleep and must always be disturbed every single time about this matter when no one is taking any money on this forum from you for their tithes? grin

Are you afraid of your own poverty - which perhaps explains why you are so fussy about this issue and yet have no simple answers to simple questions I have asked? Relax - my tithing is not your death warrant, you hear? wink

Ovamboland:
And if they did why did they not teach it to their offspring and the Prophets reminding the people their duty as derived from Abraham? Oh! sorry they operated Old covenant/LAW. Lets leave them.

I'm sorry for you, my dear brother. No matter how many times or how simple one can afford to be on this matter, you still can't get it. Go and learn to be of a simple heart and then you will be able to see the difference between the old covenant and the OT.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 3:30pm On Oct 20, 2008

Ovamboland:
2)How come Jesus, Peter, John, Matthew, Luke, Paul et al failed to teach us our christianly duty to pay tithe as a derivative of and following Abraham's example to Melchisedek?

That's another 21st century daft musing I ever heard! Matthew 23:23 is an example that has you guys confused. Hebrews 7:8 is another. Whatever is the case, you will not find anywhere in the NT where God condemned tithes or made them redundant. NOT ONE VERSE!!

I have made a simple request for you guys to show me where He ever condemned tithes - just one verse - and yet, you guys keep coming back vacant of answers and yet loaded with your miserly excuses. If you have nothing for your drivel, the best you could so is save your unnecessary remarks and go back to read your Bible. When you are done, please find me that one verse where God ever condemned tithes or made it redundant. Just ONE VERSE, thank you.

Already, I shared that whatever God wanted us to know were discouraged as Christian practice, He made it clearly known in Scripture:

~ Jewish circumcision rites
~ Jewish sabbath ceremonies
~ Jewish food laws
~ Jewish festivities:
● new moons
● days
● months
● years
● drinks and meats
● divers washings

. . and several other specifically mentioned issues. More than that, I showed where these were mentioned in the NT, quoting the verses to show where God's Word categorically showed that He would not have us be engaged in them.

However, for those looking for a short cut for their laziness, after trying to legislate on God's behalf to condemn what He never condemned, and make redundant what He never made redundant, I have waited for just one verse where God ever treated tithes the way they have done! The silliest thing I ever heard (outside this forum and later here on this thread) was that Paul used "circumcison as a metaphor for the Law" - whereas, even a baby knows that is not the case.

You see, the fear for these brethren is that they base their assumptions on what nobody has been saying, and from the false and pretentious premise then seek to attack tithes. Nobody is saying that tithes are mandatory - but no, these brethren will keep harping forever on that same "mandatory"! Tell them that tithes being voluntary are not based on the ordinaces of the old covenant under the Levitical priesthood - and they will still come back harping that it is a dangerous thing to seek the Levitical priesthood! Sometimes I'm at a loss as to what really is at the base of their fear?!? Why the panic? How could anyone say that Christians who tithe are going down the road to HELL? What a foolish thing to say - but that is because such people are too driven with their hypocrisy to even think for a minute!

Another fear that some have unfoundedly assumed is that false teachers use tithes to empty people's pockets! What a childish thing to say! The devil is smarter than that, you know - those who are making merhcnadise of the brethren are using something other than tithes to rob others! TITHES ARE NOT THE REAL PROBLEM!! Go and find out and you will see why the enemy has produced this lie and made it a matter of tithes! I shall come back and share more on this, and then I would like to see the reaction of those who keep harping endlessly about this matter to condemn what God never once condemned!

Ovamboland:
Pilgrim mentioned stewardship as one reason to pay tithe
My response: Our christian stewardship is not called to deliver money, food, offerings to an alter but to deliver lost souls to the Kingdom

Another confused fellow preaching his sanctimonious poverty! You're a laugh, and when you have learnt the real calling of a believer, come back and let's talk.

Shalom.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Ovamboland(m): 3:33pm On Oct 20, 2008

Let me now share a few reasons as to my persuasions for tithing.

(1) My persuasions for Tithing are not predicated on the Law

● Many people sadly cannot see anything other than the Law when “tithes” are mentioned. We have discussed the example of Abraham many times over to show that he was not under the Law when he tithed to Melchizedek – and the question that is still unanswered is: ‘what moved Abraham to give tithes to Melchizedek?’ Rather than proffer a simple answer, all we have read are excuses from those who see no reason at all to tithe. I have also given reasons why references to the Law are made in seeking to understand the meaning of tithes: simply as a matter of “principles” and not a legalistic application of the old covenant.

Very good, we are no longer under the law. However we not just opposed to Pilgrim's views (Melchisedek connection) but to the prevalent teaching in many churches today whose basis for tithing is Malachi 3:10 with the attendant curses for non-compliance. Giving a tenth of spoils was a prevalent pagan practice of Abraham's time it' not unusual to give tribute to a higher kings or priest for protection and prayers. The tenth was from poils of war not increase from his personal property or income. If Abraham's example for giving a tenth is to be followed why not follow what he did the the remainng 90%? Gen 14:22 -24

(2) My persuasions for Tithing are based on the priesthood of Melchizedek

● Another point to note is that those Christians who tithe are not predicating their tithes on the Levitical priesthood, but rather on the priesthood of Melchizedek. We have seen that inspite of the excuses people make for Hebrews 7:8, the simple declaration there is that our tithes are received by Him of whom it is witnessed that He lives (see the AMP version that highlights the case lucidly – “while there [in the case of Melchizedek], they are received by one of whom it is testified that he lives[b] [[b]perpetually]”). Also, I earlier made the case clear enough as to what the implications of the Melchizedek priesthood are in this regard; and when I tithe, I’m demonstrating my recognition of the priesthood of our Saviour after the order of Melchizedek (Heb. 5:6; 6:20 &7:17). This is where the mystery of tithing comes in – for without any Law, commandments or ordinances, Abraham saw something in his day that we often take for granted today. People need to carefully consider this: what made the patriarch offer tithes to the priest of the Most High God? How is it that his “one-off” tithes affected even his progeny (Levi) who were not even yet born at the time? I shall come back to expound on this later.

Paul's refrence in Hebrew 7 to Abraham's tithe here is not to teach the desireability of tithing; he only laid a premise to show the superiority of Christ's priesthood vis avis the levitical priesthood that the jews and some gentiles were familiar with. Paul's objective is crystal clear except for mischeif or dishonesty of latter day tithe teachers (gospel is not for material gain).

(3) My persuasions for Tithing derive from what the Lord Jesus ordained

● Having discussed this point earlier, I had hoped that anyone opposed thereto would have gone back to the Word and shown what infact the apostle was quoting when he referred to ‘the temple’ and ‘the altar’ in 1 Cor. 9:13, and then drew the inference in verse 14 with these words: “EVEN SO. .” One may ask: “Even so”. . what? Was it not that he was showing the precise principle from the OT scripture he had referred to in verse 13? At least, no one has come back to argue that the Lord never ordained anything in that verse – for verse 14 categorically says: “Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.” Even though He ordained it, He did not make it mandatory for any Christian (see verse 15).

Sister Pilgim, need we resort to outright falsehood to make a point? The refrence in 1 Cor 9: 13 is simply taking are of the personal needs (not WANTS) of workers in vineyard and does not ORDAIN ANYTHING because if you read to the end of that chapter Paul elected not to depend on such handouts. Tithe (read tenth) is not ordained here.
Temple and alter refrence here is to make the point clear by comparing with what the jews and gentiles can easily understand. He is neversaying christians should erect Temples and Altars onwhich tithes is to be dropped.
If you understand your stand in Christ, you will know your pastor to whom you lay your tithes is only excersising his spiritual gift to teach as you can excercise your say prophesy if you desire and God wills to give you Rom 12: 1 - end. Your pastor is not your priest after Christ or Melchisedek order; you are part of the same body, we are all priest and Christ our High Priest. We are to offer our bodies as living sacrifice not our Tithe right?

(4) My persuasions for Tithing are derived from Abraham’s example

● There’s hardly anyone who would be confused as to the principle of Abraham’s life being faith – and that is the precedence set for us in the Word (see Galatians 3:7 – “Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham”). Further, it is interesting that the Lord Jesus made an arresting statement in John 8:39 – “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham”. Rather than keep arguing and making excuses for why one cannot follow the “one-off” tithes of Abraham. . blah-blah, my premise is to simply follow the patriarch’s example and willingly give my tithes – not under the Law, not under the old covenant, not under any compulsion, and definitely not under any excuses. Rather, my tithing is simply by Abraham’s example of faith that moved him to tithe. It is remarkable that even those who oppose the principle of tithing cannot deny this matter, but even as TV01 said: “Abrahams faith is the only pointer for NT Christians”. If they gladly acknowledge that, what is the quarrelling about Christians who tithe by faith?

There is no refrence saying there is faith attached to this example Abraham for anything. He was already rich and could mobilse men to defeat 4 kingdoms and continue to be rich thereafter. His faith is in God's abilty is to fulfil His promise to make him father of many nations even when at advanced age he had no child of His own. And also to follow the expressed WORD of God as presented in Genesis.

Pilgrim, dear sister, if you decide in our heart to GIVE 10% of your monthly or weekly income to the body of Christ, you have given according to the measure of faith God has given you Rom 12: 3. It is not an ordinace or practice to be taught or instituted. It is not TITHE Abrahamic or Levitical but by the spirit as a gift.

Christian GIVING is by your measure faith, as you are able to, seeking to defend the indefensible practice prevalent nowadays is an act of DISHONESTY.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 3:39pm On Oct 20, 2008

KunleOshob:
The truth is that my dear sister(Pilgim.1) having long realized that tithing can never be justified based on law (even though she keeps refering to it) she had to look for another way to justify it hence the inferals to Melchizedek's priesthood and the one off free will, non obligatory, unsolicited and un commanded tithes which he received from Abraham.

Dear Kunle,

I would like to go it soft on you because you're still wet behind the ears. I enjoy a good rapport with all, but when they want to keep pushing their hypocrisies, then they are asking for what they can't sustain if handed back to them.

That said, I would like you to do just two things for me - you don't have to be sacred; but if you fail to do so and come back with this sort of hypocrisy, I might no alternatives than to be firm with you also. here are my two simple request:

1. Please, please and please, Kunle - can you show me anywhere in this thread where I ever tried to "justify" tithes on the LAW?

Since you are making the claim now that I had to "look for another way", it suggests that I had been justifying tithes on the Law and perhaps "realizing" that has failed, I had to "look for another way". Please Kunle, I would like you to please bring out where I ever justified tithes on the old covenant. Failure to do so would mean only one thing: you would have to come back and remove that fib in your carping - or I would go back and highlight your caterwauls. I promise you that!

2. Can you show me anywhere in the NT where God ever condemned tithes or made them redundant?

Again, if you fail to find only one verse where "tithes" are specifically mentioned as being condemned, I might have to come back and waste your arguments once more and bleach this ribald hypocrisy that you guys have dyed yourselves with. I don't want to treat you fellows that way; but if you keep pushing these blind-bat lifestyle and force yourselves to pass these fibs incessantly, you would leave me no choice to be firm towards you.

Cheers.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 3:56pm On Oct 20, 2008

This excerpts from my previous link clearly depicts the pagan origin of tithes. The Abrahamic tithes my dear pilgrim.1 is fond of refering to.

The Esretu - the standard Babylonian one-tenth tax

Hebrew was a Semitic language, related to Akkadian, the lingua franca of that time. An Akkadian noun that Abraham was most likely familiar with given his Babylonian background was esretu, meaning "one-tenth." By the time of Abraham, this phrase was used to refer to the "one-tenth tax," or "tithe." Listed below are some specific instances of the Mesopotamian tithe, taken from The Assyrian Dictionary of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, Vol. 4 "E":

[Referring to a[b] ten per cent tax [/b] levied on garments by the local ruler:] "the palace has taken eight garments as your tithe (on 85 garments)"

", eleven garments as tithe (on 112 garments)"
", (the sun-god) Shamash demands the tithe, "
"four minas of silver, the tithe of [the gods] Bel, Nabu, and Nergal, "
", he has paid, in addition to the tithe for Ninurta, the tax of the gardiner"
", the tithe of the chief accountant, he has delivered it to [the sun-god] Shamash"
", why do you not pay the tithe to the Lady-of-Uruk?"
", (a man) owes barley and dates as balance of the tithe of the **years three and four"
", the tithe of the king on barley of the town, "
", with regard to the elders of the city whom (the king) has **summoned to (pay) tithe, "
", the collector of the tithe of the country Sumundar, "
", (the official Ebabbar in Sippar) who is in charge of the tithe, "
Because of this standard one-tenth tax in Babylon, Abraham of the Genesis account was most likely familiar with the concept of giving up ten-percent of goods as tax.

In India sikh religion also provide for such practice called "Duswanth" Means one tenth part of income to be devoted for religious purposes. Tenth Master Guru Gobind Singh started this practice.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Gamine(f): 4:00pm On Oct 20, 2008

i was going to make a detailed post

perhaps later, the system im using now wont allow for it.

Pilgrim, i cant believe that through all these long posts

You cant understand that a Christians giving is motivated by Love, Faith, Gratitude e.t.c

Same things that motivated Abraham.

i dont know why we have to keep going back and forth.

its saddening me o sad

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Ovamboland(m): 4:06pm On Oct 20, 2008

Sister Pilgrim read from Titus 10 - 16 or take time toread the whole chapter, we've been forewarned about people like you coming to eah what the apostles did not teach

10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. 11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. 12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. 16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:08pm On Oct 20, 2008

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:
Very good, we are no longer under the law. However we not just opposed to Pilgrim's views (Melchisedek connection) but to the prevalent teaching in many churches today whose basis for tithing is Malachi 3:10 with the attendant curses for non-compliance. Giving a tenth of spoils was a prevalent pagan practice of Abraham's time it' not unusual to give tribute to a higher kings or priest for protection and prayers. The tenth was from poils of war not increase from his personal property or income. If Abraham's example for giving a tenth is to be followed why not follow what he did the the remainng 90%? Gen 14:22 -24

There's something I would like to show you guys on Abraham in Genesis 14; but I doubt that you fastidious miserly excuses would once again blind you to your drivels. I have said so many times already: pilgrim.1 is not concerned with what any church today is doing with Malachi 3 to curse any Christians!!! To keep using this matter as your soft ball for the hypocrisy that you cannot take care of yourself is hardly surprising!

Ovamboland:
Paul's refrence in Hebrew 7 to Abraham's tithe here is not to teach the desireability of tithing; he only laid a premise to show the superiority of Christ's priesthood vis avis the levitical priesthood that the jews and some gentiles were familiar with. Paul's objective is crystal clear except for mischeif or dishonesty of latter day tithe teachers (gospel is not for material gain).

I'm sorry to say - this id one of those times I have to say agains that your statement is daft!! Thrice a million times daft! How on earth could you refer to Abraham's tithing at first as a PAGAN rite, and then hypocritically come back to say that Paul was using that same event to show the superiority of Christ? Are you so silly that you cannot even hold a consistent position because you must by default find problems in every statement tithers make? I never heard this type of rigid two-facedness coming from a Christian until today!

Bros, please tell me: was Abraham's tithing to melchizedek a PAGAN rite or not? if not, why did you try to equate it as such earlier before coming here to pretend another directly opposite thing? How dare you reduce it to such a level and then try to spring it up on a different pan altogether?

This is the one problem I find with these fellows arguing against tithes! You make all sorts of noise, make categorical statements that you can't defend; some of your brethren even go to extreme lengths to condemn tithers to HELL; and here you are swinging from one end of equating Abraham's tithe in Genesis as a "pagan" rite only to come back in the next line to say it was rather to demonstrate something of Christ's superiority! Daft! angry

Ovamboland:
Sister Pilgim, need we resort to outright falsehood to make a point?

Why don't you simply go to Scripture and fetch the answers to my simple questions? Why all this pagan ducking?

Ovamboland:
The refrence in 1 Cor 9: 13 is simply taking are of the personal needs (not WANTS) of workers in vineyard and does not ORDAIN ANYTHING because if you read to the end of that chapter Paul elected not to depend on such handouts. Tithe (read tenth) is not ordained here.

Ahh, now you convince me that you haven't read the Bible. Two things for you:

1. Please open your Bible - please open it - and s-l-o-w-l-y read 1 Corinthians 9:14 from --

the KJV,
BBE,
Darby,
DRB,
EMTV,
ESV,
God's WORD,
ISV,
RV,
Webster,
NIV,
HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible) versions -

. . . and then let me know if you could not find the words "ordained" and "command" in that verse!

2. Please go over verse 13 again and quote for me what OT scripture paul was referring to when he wrote that verse.

You only sound this way because you have never taken the time to study this passages and then you come back making these childish noise just because you want to force yourself to disagree by dint of what you have been spoonfed. I am wating for your answers to those exercises - you fail to show them, I might rubbish your caterwauls next time.

Ovamboland:
Temple and alter refrence here is to make the point clear by comparing with what the jews and gentiles can easily understand. He is neversaying christians should erect Temples and Altars onwhich tithes is to be dropped.

Did I say anywhere that Paul wanted Christians to erect Temples? Did I say so? You see your problem? What I never said is what you guys will read into other people's posts and then begin to shout from the air! Did I say what you're inferring here, Ovamboland?

Ovamboland:
If you understand your stand in Christ, you will know your pastor to whom you lay your tithes is only excersising his spiritual gift to teach as you can excercise your say prophesy if you desire and God wills to give you Rom 12: 1 - end. Your pastor is not your priest after Christ or Melchisedek order; you are part of the same body, we are all priest and Christ our High Priest. We are to offer our bodies as living sacrifice not our Tithe right?

Thanks for the lecture - but I would rather that you asked me questions about my stand in Christ next time before you assume I don't know. Besides, you often hold this empty talk about giving yourself and nothing more - good: when you are done preaching your poverty, let me know.

Ovamboland:
There is no refrence saying there is faith attached to this example Abraham for anything.

Phew. I am seriously sorry for this fellow. undecided

Ovamboland, dear brother. . . I should not have ben so hard on you previously, because only now did I come to understand that you have not read your Bible. So, I would only ask you: should I show you where the example of Abraham was on faith? I'm sure that I'm not the only one who knows that. It does not pay to just start arguing where you have not read and studied your Bible O.

Ovamboland:
He was already rich and could mobilse men to defeat 4 kingdoms and continue to be rich thereafter. His faith is in God's abilty is to fulfil His promise to make him father of many nations even when at advanced age he had no child of His own. And also to follow the expressed WORD of God as presented in Genesis.

yada-yada-yada! U don finish? Abraham gave tithes to melchizedek - God said so, and I'm satisfied thereto. grin

Ovamboland:
Pilgrim, dear sister, if you decide in our heart to GIVE 10% of your monthly or weekly income to the body of Christ, you have given according to the measure of faith God has given you Rom 12: 3. It is not an ordinace or practice to be taught or instituted. It is not TITHE Abrahamic or Levitical but by the spirit as a gift.

What are you saying here now? Have you made sense at all to yourself? Did I institute tithes anywhere? So, if you recognize that my tithes are a matter of the Spirit as a gift, WHY on earth are you so disturbed by my TITHING? Have I asked you to bend your neck to my tithing? undecided

Ovamboland:
Christian GIVING is by your measure faith, as you are able to, seeking to defend the indefensible practice prevalent nowadays is an act of DISHONESTY.

I am still waiting for you guys to clear your dishonesty! Please take the time (even if na forever) and answer my simple questions - then we go see where una go bleach your own dishonesty reach.

Thank you.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 4:12pm On Oct 20, 2008

pilgrim.1:
Dear Kunle,

I would like to go it soft on you because you're still wet behind the ears. I enjoy a good rapport with all, but when they want to keep pushing their hypocrisies, then they are asking for what they can't sustain if handed back to them.

That said, I would like you to do just two things for me - you don't have to be sacred; but if you fail to do so and come back with this sort of hypocrisy, I might no alternatives than to be firm with you also. here are my two simple request:

1. Please, please and please, Kunle - can you show me anywhere in this thread where I ever tried to "justify" tithes on the LAW?

Since you are making the claim now that I had to "look for another way", it suggests that I had been justifying tithes on the Law and perhaps "realizing" that has failed, I had to "look for another way". Please Kunle, I would like you to please bring out where I ever justified tithes on the old covenant. Failure to do so would mean only one thing: you would have to come back and remove that fib in your carping - or I would go back and highlight your caterwauls. I promise you that!

2. Can you show me anywhere in the NT where God ever condemned tithes or made them redundant?

Again, if you fail to find only one verse where "tithes" are specifically mentioned as being condemned, I might have to come back and waste your arguments once more and bleach this ribald hypocrisy that you guys have dyed yourselves with. I don't want to treat you fellows that way; but if you keep pushing these blind-bat lifestyle and force yourselves to pass these fibs incessantly, you would leave me no choice to be firm towards you.

Cheers.

My dear pilgrim.1 i think you need to take a cold glass of water i can sense tempers rising here. First of all my inferals in the statement i made as to your not justifying tithes using law does not necessarily mean you ever said said such a thing on this thread. Why i suggested that is because most of us first learnt about tithes based on law(malachi 3;10). In other wards what i was saying basically is that you changed from tithing based on law because i suspect that like every other person it, was introduced to you based on law.
As to where tithing was specifically condemned in the NT, we hav been there before though you still argued Hebrews 7: 5-18 deals exclusively with it and the laws under which the tithing law fell where not only anulled but described as weak and useless. And what even makes it more interesting is that the practise of tithing was used as an example before the whole law was anulled in verses 12, 15-18

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Ovamboland(m): 4:12pm On Oct 20, 2008

Verse 10 says ' especially the circumcision group' which indicates there many other false teaching as sister pilgrim is trying to ram down our throat with lenthy posts.
There are my of such unprofitble teachings as Paula White teaching us to wait for Jewish Yom Kippur day and go for 'our' day of Atonement ofcourse you must come with your 'offering' unto the Most High

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:14pm On Oct 20, 2008

@Gamine,

Gamine:
Pilgrim, i can't believe that through all these long posts

You can't understand that a Christians giving is motivated by Love, Faith, Gratitude e.t.c

Same things that motivated Abraham.

i don't know why we have to keep going back and forth.

its saddening me o

Dear Gamine, I have said and detailed those very things so many times in the past. But since many people refuse to read them and then try to read their own palava into my replies, I stopped trying to repeat myself and now approach one simple thing: let them confuse themselves as much as they want, and then come back and wash their faces.

How could anyone suppose that I could not understand that our giving has been by faith love and gratitude? Just pleeeeeeaaase tell me?! I was not going to post my persuasions for tithing because I did not want to make it a statute for others; but how come you are now accusing me of this, Gamine? How could you do such a thing?

I have noted again and again that my persuasion to tithe is not based on any Law - I did not make it any Law - I said clearly that it was by faith - I quoted as well both John 8:39 and Galatians 3:7. . . . ALLL THESE THINGS I HAVE SHARED ALREADY - and yet, you come back accusing me like this?!? undecided

Just what is it that is in my posts that has not clearly mentioned thsi matter of [size=14pt]FAITH?!?[/size]

If I have done so repeatedly, then WHY accuse me of what I am not guilty of? undecided

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by huxley(m): 4:18pm On Oct 20, 2008

How can tithing be such a fraught issue amongst Christians. Isn't the "word of god" clear and unequivocal about this?

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:21pm On Oct 20, 2008

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:
Verse 10 says ' especially the circumcision group' which indicates there many other false teaching as sister pilgrim is trying to ram down our throat with lenthy posts.

Dear brother, I have not rammed anything down your throat, please be honest if you actually pass for a Christian. It is not a virtue to be deliberately dishonest, please. If anyone has been saying anything, I have repeatedly said that I am not making anyone to bend their necks to my persuasions for tithing. Did you miss that? Why this silly dishonesty on your part?

Secondly, please before you come back foolishly drivelling again, go back and read what I said about circumcision. Read the references I clearly laid out - see if I had forced a word that was not there, and then come back and help us see that my thoughts about circumcision are wrong. That way, you will help others if you don't want help for yourself.

But note also that I never equated Circumcision with Tithes - why? Because the Bible does not do such a thing. if you are not convinced, then come back and I have a simple question for you.

Ovamboland:
There are my of such unprofitble teachings as Paula White teaching us to wait for Jewish Yom Kippur day and go for 'our' day of Atonement ofcourse you must come with your 'offering' unto the Most High

I am not Paula White; and if you have misgivings with her, you can write directly to her ministry.

Cheers.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:25pm On Oct 20, 2008

@KunleOshob,

KunleOshob:
This excerpts from my previous link clearly depicts the pagan origin of tithes. The Abrahamic tithes my dear pilgrim.1 is fond of refering to.

Thank you. I am not the one accusing Abraham's TITHES as pagan - you and your brethren are. After you have done so, you have the sanctimonious nerve to come back and present that same "pagan" allegations as an example for the superiority of Christ's priesthood! May God forgive you and Ovamboland - you don't have to be extreme just because you don't want to tithe. This is the kind of foolishness that will make the pagans laugh at your testimony. Well done.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 4:35pm On Oct 20, 2008

More excerpts cheesy

Tithing in the New Testament

According to Catholics, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar (1 Cor 9:13), provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers.

In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would ensure the proper and permanent support of the clergy.

Many Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) support their churches and pastors with monetary contributions of one sort or another. Frequently these monetary contributions are called tithes whether or not they actually represent ten-percent of anything. Some claim that as tithing was an ingrained Jewish custom by the time of Jesus, no specific command to tithe per se is found in the New Testament. However, this view overlooks the fact that Israel's tithes were of an agricultural nature, not financial. References to tithing in the New Testament can be found in Matthew, Luke, and the book of Hebrews.

For Catholics, the payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a "divine ordinance" and an obligation of conscience, rather than any direct command by Jesus Christ.

Some Protestant denominations cite Matthew 23:23 as support for tithing.

Away with you, you pettifogging Pharisee lawyers! You give to God a tenth of herbs, like mint, dill, and cumin, but the important duties of the Law -- judgement, mercy, honesty -- you have neglected. Yet these you ought to have performed, without neglecting the others.
(Albright & Mann, Matthew, Anchor Bible, Vol. 26 (1971))
and its parallel Luke 11:42

Woe to you, Pharisees! You tithe mint and rue and every edible herb but disregard justice and the love of God. These were rather the things one should practice, without neglecting the others.
(Fitzmyer, Luke, Anchor Bible, Vol.l, 28A (1985))
Because of Jesus' specific mention of the tithe in this passage, those who support the tithe believe that he gave his endorsement to the practice of tithing in general. Some scholars disagree, however, pointing out that Jesus was simply obeying Mosaic law as an obedient Jew and telling Pharisees they ought to have tithed as they claimed they were living under that law.

The final mention of tithing in the New Testament is Hebrews 7:1-10. This refers back to the tithe Abram paid to Melchizedek. This passage, although serving as confirmation that Abraham did indeed pay his tithe to Melchisedec, is not so much about tithing as about trying to show the superiority of Christ to that of the Levitical priesthood.

Most New Testament discussion promotes giving and does not mention tithing. 2 Corinthians 9:7 talks about giving cheerfully; 2 Corinthians 8:3 encourages giving what you can afford; 1 Corinthians 16:2 discusses giving weekly; 1 Timothy 5:18 exhorts supporting the financial needs of Christian workers; Acts 11:29 promotes feeding the hungry wherever they may be; and James 1:27 states that pure religion is to help widows and orphans.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:42pm On Oct 20, 2008

@KunleOshob,

Please I asked you two questions for which I would very much like you to clear yourself. Accusing me the way you did is no way to show your Christian virtue. Please oblige, thanks.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:43pm On Oct 20, 2008

@Ovamboland,

I also asked you some questions, for which I would very much appreciate your answers. If you are not willing to discuss, please look elsewhere before you take issues out of hand for yourself. Thank you.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 4:47pm On Oct 20, 2008

Ovamboland:
16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Can you honestly say you were not describing yourself by that verse after referring to Abraham's tithes as "pagan" and then using that same matter as an example for the superiority of Christ? So your Christian life is a pagan ceremony by extension?

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 4:51pm On Oct 20, 2008

pilgrim.1:
@KunleOshob,

Please I asked you two questions for which I would very much like you to clear yourself. Accusing me the way you did is no way to show your Christian virtue. Please oblige, thanks.

i already answered your questions in post number 1704

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by huxley(m): 5:06pm On Oct 20, 2008

Let me do some research and find out what some present day chritian scholars think about tithing. Watch this space.

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 5:08pm On Oct 20, 2008

KunleOshob:
i already answered your questions in post number 1704

You did not answer my questions - and please oblige me an honest answer to clear your accusation against me. I already saw your reposte (#1704), and you still emphasised the same accusations and gave no answers to my question:

KunleOshob:
In other wards what i was saying basically is that you changed from tithing based on law because i suspect that like every other person it, was introduced to you based on law.

This was my question: [list][list]1. Please, please and please, Kunle - can you show me anywhere in this thread where I ever tried to "justify" tithes on the LAW?

Since you are making the claim now that I had to "look for another way", it suggests that I had been justifying tithes on the Law and perhaps "realizing" that has failed, I had to "look for another way". [/list][/list]

Now, if you acknowledge that I NEVER justified tithes on Law at anytime, WHY are you so driven to misrepresent me with such an allegation? Is this the type of thing we ought to do to oursleves as CHRISTIANS - to deliberately make false allegations against our brethren because we don't agree with some of the things they say?

In the past where people have said so many things against pilgrim.1, I have teasingly laughed it off. But you have no clue what damage you are doing to yourself here. There are people who are reading these matters who may not be members of Nairaland - I live and work among a lot of unbelievers, and when they read the way we Christians often make false claims against one another, it just makes me wonder the so-called "liberty" we noise abroad and yet cannot hold ourselves in simple honesty!

This was why I kept saying that we sometimes make pagans laugh at our testimony as Christians, because here you are demonstrating that some people can descend so low to godlessness just to win an argument! This is not about me, Kunle - in the past I can show you many things people have called me. But the reason why I had to call your attention to clear this up is more serious than you realize - and the case will be pointed out soon to you.

KunleOshob:
As to where tithing was specifically condemned in the NT, we hav been there before though you still argued Hebrews 7: 5-18 deals exclusively with it and the laws under which the tithing law fell where not only anulled but described as weak and useless. And what even makes it more interesting is that the practise of tithing was used as an example before the whole law was anulled in verses 12, 15-18

I am still waiting for the verse where the NT SPECIFICALLY condemned tithes. Please quote that verse with the word "tithes" in condemnation.

Where I made a case for circumcision, I made clear with direct quotes, such as:

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing,
and uncircumcision is nothing,
but the keeping of the commandments of God.

But where in the NT did God's Word specifically mention TITHES in about the same way, Kunle? Where in Hebrews 7 did it condemn tithes the way you guys are doing?

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Ovamboland(m): 5:09pm On Oct 20, 2008

pilgrim.1:
@Ovamboland,

I'm sorry to say - this id one of those times I have to say agains that your statement is daft!! Thrice a million times daft! How on earth could you refer to Abraham's tithing at first as a PAGAN rite, and then hypocritically come back to say that Paul was using that same event to show the superiority of Christ? Are you so silly that you cannot even hold a consistent position because you must by default find problems in every statement tithers make? I never heard this type of rigid two-facedness coming from a Christian until today!
/quote]

Classic Pilgrim style she has chosen to read her own warped meaning into a simple post that needs no degree to understand. How did my post say Paul used Abrahams tithing to prove superiority of Christ's Priesthood? Why are simple, clear words hard for you to understand? that you need to create inventions. Abraham recognised Melcksedek as a High Priest. His giving a tenth of spoils or not does not change Melchisedeks status.

As usual she has carefully avoided the truth of that post and decided to chase shadows. She failed to answer the simple question: What was Pauls objective for writing Hebrews 7?

[
pilgrim.1 link=topic=272.msg2968830#msg2968830 date=1224515290:
@Ovamboland,

Thanks for the lecture - but I would rather that you asked me questions about my stand in Christ next time before you assume I don't know. Besides, you often hold this empty talk about giving yourself and nothing more - good: when you are done preaching your poverty, let me know.
As much as Pilgrim tries to parry and deny her motivation for 'tithing the truth keeps surfacing. Is this not what we stand to condemn? the false teaching that failure to pay tithe results in poverty. That is the message of fear and bondage we stand against. The tithe teaching has been on for centuries and lots od christian so brainwashed that it is not an easy task to make them see.

But Paul in Jude 10: 13 calls us to rebuke them sharply, those who spread the message of dishonest gain

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Ovamboland(m): 5:12pm On Oct 20, 2008

Apologies fr mix up in my last post

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 5:14pm On Oct 20, 2008

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:
As much as Pilgrim tries to parry and deny her motivation for 'tithing the truth keeps surfacing.

Dear Ovamboland, if ever I had wanted to deny my motivation for tithing, I would not have posted them at all in this thread - HERE and HERE.

Why is it that you people must always resort to a bold-faced and blatant LIE just to push your restless souls? Is truth is strange word in your type of Christianity? Why do you have to keep shamelessly bleaching your duplicity in a public forum as a Christian?

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Gamine(f): 5:17pm On Oct 20, 2008

Ok, Pilgrim.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

i just do not see where arguments are coming from now undecided

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by sleekymag(m): 5:20pm On Oct 20, 2008

@ Kunle Oshob,
i don't see why you keep having to refer to historical articles when trying to justify your opinion on a matter whereas God's word "The Holy Bible" should be what you should base your opinions on. According to Pilgrim.1's questions, where was tithes or tithing condemned in the scriptures?

@ Gamine,

Pilgrim, i can't believe that through all these long posts

You can't understand that a Christians giving is motivated by Love, Faith, Gratitude e.t.c

Same things that motivated Abraham.

i don't know why we have to keep going back and forth.

its saddening me o

Saying what you said above either proves you have not been following how this thread has evolved and Pilgrim.1's stance on the subject matter or you just intentionally want to make her look like she's saying these because of your contrary opinions. Pilgrim.1 and every other person here who would still rather tithe their income have consistently said it is an issue of love, faith and gratitude to God. So you don't have to be saddened, except its one of ur ways to just infuriate Pilgrim.1

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 5:20pm On Oct 20, 2008

@Gamine,

Gamine:
Ok, Pilgrim.

Sorry for the misunderstanding

i just do not see where arguments are coming from now

No worries, dearie. I apologise for raising my voice in bold there - would have simply passed it, but you just can't imagine what unbels around me are saying and laughing just now. Not about you, Gamine - but it saddens me that some of us find it difficult to state issues in simple honesty.

Anyways, hugs. wink

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Ovamboland(m): 5:20pm On Oct 20, 2008

pilgrim.1:
Can you honestly say you were not describing yourself by that verse after referring to Abraham's tithes as "pagan" and then using that same matter as an example for the superiority of Christ? So your Christian life is a pagan ceremony by extension?

Okay! Okay! i see

Abraham waged armed warfare to gather the spoils are we called as christians to emulate that too?
He put his wifes maid in the family way as suggested by his wife, is that another christian ractice we can lift and apply today?
He made burnt animal sacrifice to God, before Levitical law, can we borrow a leaf from that today?

We can go on and on but needless.

Our refrence to Abraham is as regards his absolute faith in God to bring His covenant to pass, not in his offerings or his tenth of spoils to the High priest

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by KunleOshob(m): 5:21pm On Oct 20, 2008

@pilgim.1
It is either you have deliberately refused to understand my post or my expression of the english language is not good enough, either way there is nothing to argue about. For clarities sake i never stated that you based your tithing on law any where on this thread. As far as hebrew 7 is concerned i woudn't even bother to clearify further cos it is so glaring what was being talked about and the law clearly refered to in verse 5. Judging from the content of your posts i can safely conclude that you are a very intelligent young woman and it shouldn't be to difficult to understand the implication of that passage if you apply your mind to it

@ others
Another interesting link on tithe for those who trul seek to learn http://nigeriaworld.com/feature/publication/arowolaju/030806.html

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 5:23pm On Oct 20, 2008

sleekymag:
@ Gamine,
>snip<

. . So you don't have to be saddened, except its one of ur ways to just infuriate Pilgrim.1

@sleekmag,

Lol, I don't think she meant it deliberately, though. My apologies to her, to you and all others for raising my voice in bold there - I should not have done that. I hope after my last post in reply to hers, the issue is clear now? She may not have seen where I posted some of the things she has helped us to acknowledge in few words.

Anyway, how are you doing? Grace. wink

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by pilgrim1(f): 5:31pm On Oct 20, 2008

@Ovamboland,

Ovamboland:
Okay! Okay! i see

Abraham waged armed warfare to gather the spoils are we called as christians to emulate that too?

What did the Bible call it - STEALING? From "pagan" now to warfare, not so? That is how you exemplify the "superiority of Christ" after your pagan allegation, ba? Well done. The more you snake your tongue on your godless attitude, the more you knot your testimony as a Christian in misery. This is not about me - so accuse all you can; at the end of the day, you will give account of yourself to HIM, not to pilgrim.1.

Ovamboland:
He put his wifes maid in the family way as suggested by his wife, is that another christian ractice we can lift and apply today?

How does that connect with Melchizedek, please? You see how frantic and foolish you fellows can be just because of a churning in your disdain for God's Word. Keep it up.

Ovamboland:
He made burnt animal sacrifice to God, before Levitical law, can we borrow a leaf from that today?

Has pilgrim.1 been basing her persuasions on tithes on the Levitical priesthood? Just be honest to yourself for once!

Ovamboland:
We can go on and on but needless.

Bring them on! I could sit here and waste your foolishness as much as you desire.

Ovamboland:
Our refrence to Abraham is as regards his absolute faith in God to bring His covenant to pass, not in his offerings or his tenth of spoils to the High priest

Frantic dump shout! Did I say anything opposite to the FAITH of Abraham? have you read Galatians 3:7?

Meanwhile, what has happened to the answers to my two questions?

Re: To Tithe or Not to Tithe? by Gamine(f): 5:31pm On Oct 20, 2008

@Sleekmag

im not saddened at what Pilgrim said or did not say

im saddened that We Christians love to argue embarassed

@Pilgrim,

*HUGS*

1 2 3 ... 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 ... 64 Reply

To Tithe Or Not To Tithe: The Whole Truth From The Bible. • Ten (10) Reasons To Tithe • Jesus Is The Fulfillment Of The Law (tithing), Do I Still Need To Tithe? • 2 • 3 • 4

Stephanie Otobo's Statement Of Account Spills More Secrets About Apostle Suleman • ''Wicked Village Wait For Me, I'm Coming'' (Photo) • Vincent & Faith Nzeakor: Achieving Sexual Orgasm In A Christian Marriage (Photo)