paxonel:
the op asked where is the greater works today.
I told him there is no need for greater works today.
Greater works was meant for the disciples who followed Jesus in bible days, perhaps Paul, Peter needed the works to convince more people into the kingdom.
Now that we have more people in the kingdom(more than 30% of the world's population Christians today) what do you need greater works for?
What else is better than love your neighbor as yourself and live a better life as a Christian, what do you need supernatural powers for?

Where did Jesus Christ tell you that there is no need for greater works in His Kingdom today?
Where did you get your idea that greater works were meant for the disciples who followed Jesus Christ in the bible days?
The Kingdom belongs to Jesus Christ... did He tell you that there are indeed more people in His Kingdom and so no need or greater works? Or did you come up with that all by your lonesome self?
See, it seems your ideas where it concerns the Gospel of the Kingdom of God is based on what you think... your thoughts and opinions all housed in your mind there... and not even based on the very teachings of Jesus Christ Himself. Correct me if I am wrong here.

OP threw a challenge, why not take it up like a true Christian and defend your faith?

No one expect you to start pointing accusing fingers at someone else when you're supposed to stand and speak up for what you believe!

MightySparrow:

People like Janosky and MaximumSide side say that Jesus was only joking with these verses, that greater works ended with the Apostles.

They claim that God is long on holidays

MaxInDHouse:
OP threw a challenge, why not take it up like a true Christian and defend your faith?

No one expect you to start pointing accusing fingers at someone else when you're supposed to stand and speak up for what you believe!

Na lie?

Kobojunkie:
Where did Jesus Christ tell you that there is no need for greater works in His Kingdom today?

where in the bible did Jesus mentioned today or this current day we are living talkless of he mentioning the need for us to perform miracles as performed by early apostles and Jesus disciples who really had the need for those miracles as observed by the op, can't you reason that there is time for everything and if there was any need for it and if God wanted the miracles to continue till this day we are living there will be cases where Christians are performing miracles everywhere today?
And come to think of it, how many Christians today are performing the kind of miracles we read in the bible as rightly observed by the op?

You will not use your brain to think, you are waiting for Jesus to tell you everything abi?

paxonel:
where in the bible did Jesus mentioned today or this current day we are living talkless of he mentioning the need for us to perform miracles as performed by early apostles and Jesus disciples who really had the need for those miracles as observed by the op, can't you reason that there is time for everything and if there was any need for it and if God wanted the miracles to continue till this day we are living there will be cases where Christians are performing miracles everywhere today?
And come to think of it, how many Christians today are performing the kind of miracles we read in the bible as rightly observed by the op?

You will not use your brain to think, you are waiting for Jesus to tell you everything abi?

So, in your assessment, Jesus Christ had to use the word "Today" or at least imply it, for anything he said to apply to Christ-ians "Today" and this from 2000 years ago?

So, all Christ-ians today should avoid Jesus Christ's teachings unless He specifically indicated in His teachings that that ought to be applied even today?

Kobojunkie:
So, in your assessment, Jesus Christ had to use the word "Today" or at least imply it, for anything he said to apply to Christ ians "Today" and this from 2000 years ago?

So, all Christ-ians today should avoid Jesus Christ's teachings unless He specifically indicated in His teachings that that ought to be applied even today?

In the beginning there was no need for miracles.
God created everything and saw that they were good already.
Yes, it's true that Adam and Eve sinned, but Christ has restored man back to the state where he was before Adam sinned, a state where miracles are not needed, don't you understand?

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

We have all read in the old testament how God miraculously fought the Israelites battle and gave victory to Jerusalem. He opened the red sea, provided manner from heaven, water from rocks, great miracles. But how long will God continue to do that?

A wicked and adulterous generation will continue to seek for miracles even after Christ has died and resurrected and gave them eternal life which is paramount

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away

The question you are running from is, what are signs and wonders or miracles meant for?

paxonel:
In the beginning there was no need for miracles.
God created everything and saw that they were good already.
Yes, it's true that Adam and Eve sinned, but Christ has restored man back to the state where he was before Adam sinned, a state where miracles are not needed, don't you understand?

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

We have all read in the old testament how God miraculously fought the Israelites battle and gave victory to Jerusalem. He opened the red sea, provided manner from heaven, water from rocks, great miracles. But how long will God continue to do that?

A wicked and adulterous generation will continue to seek for miracles even after Christ has died and resurrected and gave them eternal life which is paramount

Matthew 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away

The question you are running from is, what are signs and wonders or miracles meant for?

Here are the questions I asked you

Kobojunkie:
So, in your assessment, Jesus Christ had to use the word "Today" or at least imply it, for anything he said to apply to Christ-ians "Today" and this from 2000 years ago?

So, all Christ-ians today should avoid Jesus Christ's teachings unless He specifically indicated in His teachings that that ought to be applied even today?

Kobojunkie:
Here are the questions I asked you

So, in your assessment, Jesus Christ had to use the word "Today" or at least imply it, for anything he said to apply to Christ-ians "Today" and this from 2000 years ago?

why will Jesus Christ use the word today?
we are not the only people that has ever lived after Christ resurrected 2000 years ago or will ever live beyond this current day we are living, so Christ will not possibly have us in mind when he was interacting with his disciples 2000 years ago. All we or any generation of people need to do is to key to the work he has completed on the Cross by believing in him and we are saved, that's all.
We don't need all these miracle this, miracle that, what for, Is it for show?

So, all Christ-ians today should avoid Jesus Christ's teachings unless He specifically indicated in His teachings that that ought to be applied even today?

that is hasty generalization man.
Don't generalize!

We were specifically refering to miracles, not all Jesus teachings

paxonel:
why will Jesus Christ use the word today?
we are not the only people that has ever lived after Christ resurrected 2000 years ago or will ever live beyond this current day we are living, so Christ will not possibly have us in mind when he was interacting with his disciples 2000 years ago. All we or any generation of people need to do is to key to the work he has completed on the Cross by believing in him and we are saved, that's all.

So Christ only had his disciples in mind when he taught them His teachings, including all He taught them of miracles as well?

paxonel:
We don't need all these miracle this, miracle that, what for, Is it for show?
that is hasty generalization man.
Don't generalize!
We were specifically refering to miracles, not all Jesus teachings

We don't need all these miracles because?
So, what do you think Christ's miracles were for? For show? Or what for?

Now i know it's not how far but how well!

So with your oldage you can't grasp that your faith is DEAD if you have nothing to say in defense to this challenge but to start pointing to another person shey?

I already told you my God differs from yours so anytime talks about God like this comes up, speak for your own God and leave my own for me!

MightySparrow:
Na lie?

MaxInDHouse:
Now i know it's not how far but how well!

So with your oldage you can't grasp that your faith is DEAD if you have nothing to say in defense to this challenge but to start pointing to another person shey?

I already told you my God differs from yours so anytime talks about God like this comes up, speak for your own God and leave my own for me!

??! Eph. 4: 5; Jude 3

I'm not the OP who CHALLENGED your faith so i'll leave you to continue crying, i don't have any business with you!

MightySparrow:
??! Eph. 4: 5; Jude 3

MightySparrow:
??! Eph. 4: 5; Jude 3

Ephesians 4:5 and Jude 1:3 references Jehovah's Servants. Compare Acts 15:14 ,2 Chro7:14, Isaiah 43:10-12,21 (ASV).

Janosky:


Ephesians 4:5 and Jude 1:3 references Jehovah's Servants. Compare Acts 15:14 ,2 Chro7:14, Isaiah 43:10-12,21 (ASV).

These verses talk about those that believe that God is still powerful and is still answering prayers with signs and wonders. not those who have argued God out of existence and relevance and follow charms. Dan 11: 32.
YOU can coin any names for yourself, it is a free world and appraise yourself all you want no evidence of 'greater works' you are a wrong witness. 2 Tim 3: 5

JWs have been telling them the truth but they're arguing blindly, now nemesis has caught up with their lies instead of him to cover his face in shame he wants to change the subject and derail the thread from the main point!

Just imagine:

Where are those Christians claiming they're performing greater miracles than Jesus? ~ OP

Jehovah's Witnesses are blocking the server so we can't connect God directly to perform miracles ~ MightySparrow

Janosky:

Ephesians 4:5 and Jude 1:3 references Jehovah's Servants. Compare Acts 15:14 ,2 Chro7:14, Isaiah 43:10-12,21 (ASV).

MaxInDHouse:
JWs have been telling them the truth but they're arguing blindly, now nemesis has caught up with their lies instead of him to cover his face in shame he wants to change the subject and derail the thread from the main point!

Just imagine:

Where are those Christians claiming they're performing greater miracles than Jesus? ~ OP

Jehovah's Witnesses are blocking the server so we can't connect God directly to perform miracles ~ MightySparrow

Ok be performing nothing in your truthful lie!

With gods of all kinds spiritists performing magic and taxing you guys for ten percent of your salaries can deceive you.
But it's only with the true God that LOVE, JOY and PEACE can reign in an Organization of people from all races! Isaiah 2:2-4
That's what you can't find anywhere else except in the midst of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES! John 13:34-35
And it's the greater WORKS Jesus never achieved in his time {John 14:12} not miracles because nobody can perform miracles even 1% of the miracles God's only begotten son performed {John 21:25} let that sink into that your empty skull!

MightySparrow:

Ok be performing nothing in your truthful lie!

MaxInDHouse:
With gods of all kinds spiritists performing magic and taxing you guys for ten percent of your salaries can deceive you.
But it's only with the true God that LOVE, JOY and PEACE can reign in an Organization of people from all races! Isaiah 2:2-4
That's what you can't find anywhere else except in the midst of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES! John 13:34-35
And it's the greater WORKS Jesus never achieved in his time {John 14:12} not miracles because nobody can perform miracles even 1% of the miracles God's only begotten son performed {John 21:25} let that sink into that your empty skull!

No one doubts that Jesus commanded us to love, saying that love was going to be our identity as in John 13:35. But he also said that performing extraordinary acts would be our identity too as in Mark 16:15-18 which says, "Go into the WHOLE WORLD and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. But he that does not believe shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".

Look at that scripture: Jesus commanded his immediate listeners to go out to the WHOLE WORLD and preach to EVERY CREATURE. Next, he says that those who believe (among EVERY CREATURE in the WHOLE WORLD) will have the characteristics in the bolded lines. The WHOLE WORLD included Nigeria and EVERY CREATURE included YOU and ME. Or, don't you think so?

That's a confirmation that John 14:12 is talking about miracles and not just love as you say. He mentioned our identities as love for one another and also as the ability to perform super-human acts (since we became superhuman through our oneness with him in love). Now, for me, accepting one identity while denying the other amounts to an attempt to escape half of your responsibility as a believer in Jesus Christ.

Remember that the statement on John 14:12 was part of the discussion that the Lord Jesus concluded with a prayer in John Chapter 17 where he said, "I'm not only praying for THESE ONES but also for those who will come to believe in me through their words" (verse 20).

I hope you will read this with a mind to know the will of God, and not just for the sake of winning an argument. It's my response to you after long hours of prayerful reflections on the matter. Moreover, I hope you know that the phrase "that your empty skull" that you used above is a contradiction of the Christian love you've been talking about. Thank you.

Cc: Kobojunkie, Paxonel, Mightysparrow, janosky.

Jesus said this as recorded in Matthew 16:4...

paxonel:
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away

And he also said this in Mark 16:15-18...

"Go into the WHOLE WORLD and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. But he that does not believe shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".

Was Jesus contradicting himself? No. So, see my understanding of and how to reconcile the two passages:

A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign INSTEAD OF PERFORMING THE SIGNS THEMSELVES (because they can't since they are not in Christ)...

But, believers in Christ perform signs and wonders themselves INSTEAD OF LOOKING FOR THEM (because they have the power).

I advise you reflect prayerfully on this before you respond. Thank you.

Sharingiscaring:
Jesus said this as recorded in Matthew 16:4...



And he also said this in Mark 16:15-18...



Was Jesus contradicting himself? No. So, see my understanding of and how to reconcile the two passages:

A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign INSTEAD OF PERFORMING THE SIGNS THEMSELVES (because they can't since they are not in Christ)...

But, believers in Christ perform signs and wonders themselves INSTEAD OF LOOKING FOR THEM (because they have the power).

I advise you reflect prayerfully on this before you respond. Thank you.

ok,
Why did the believers have to perform signs and wonders, was it for show that they have power?

Thanks for your response!

Where most Bible readers often miss out is not knowing the exact utterances that's directly referring to them.
First of all the Bible book of Mark Chapter 16 actually ended in verse 8 so the additional verses were not found in earlier manuscripts!
Secondly Jesus wasn't talking about miraculous healings when he said those that believe in him will do GREATER WORKS unless you just want to deceive yourself. Timothy was a bonafide member of the first century Christian congregation if what you're quoting is real why didn't the first century Christians heal Timothy miraculously instead of asking him to start drinking wine to manage his stomach ulcer? 1Timothy 5:23
The signs and wonders were only to show the Jews that God's promise regarding the new covenant has been fulfilled so whoever wants to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should henceforth join the Christians.
That's why Paul told the Christians in Corinth that all those gifts WILL SEIZE {1Corinthians 13:8} and what will remain as identifying mark of pure worship is LOVE! 1Corinthians 13:13 compare to John 13:34-35

But if you want to believe otherwise it's OK, i wish you good luck in your search for Christians who are performing GREATER MIRACULOUS WORKS than Jesus Christ of Nazareth!

Sharingiscaring:

No one doubts that Jesus commanded us to love, saying that love was going to be our identity as in John 13:35. But he also said that performing extraordinary acts would be our identity too as in Mark 16:15-18 which says, "Go into the WHOLE WORLD and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. But he that does not believe shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".

Look at that scripture: Jesus commanded his immediate listeners to go out to the WHOLE WORLD and preach to EVERY CREATURE. Next, he says that those who believe (among EVERY CREATURE in the WHOLE WORLD) will have the characteristics in the bolded lines. The WHOLE WORLD included Nigeria and EVERY CREATURE included YOU and ME. Or, don't you think so?

That's a confirmation that John 14:12 is talking about miracles and not just love as you say. He mentioned our identities as love for one another and also as the ability to perform super-human acts (since we became superhuman through our oneness with him in love). Now, for me, accepting one identity while denying the other amounts to an attempt to escape half of your responsibility as a believer in Jesus Christ.

Remember that the statement on John 14:12 was part of the discussion that the Lord Jesus concluded with a prayer in John Chapter 17 where he said, "I'm not only praying for THESE ONES but also for those who will come to believe in me through their words" (verse 20).

I hope you will read this with a mind to know the will of God, and not just for the sake of winning an argument. It's my response to you after long hours of prayerful reflections on the matter. Moreover, I hope you know that the phrase "that your empty skull" that you used above is a contradiction of the Christian love you've been talking about. Thank you.

Cc: Kobojunkie, Paxonel, Mightysparrow, janosky.

paxonel:
ok,
Why did the believers have to perform signs and wonders, was it for show that they have power?

Read through the ministry of Jesus. His method of evangelism was to use signs and wonders as a bait to draw people, to have their attention and to preach the message of the Kingdom of God to them (see Matthew 4:23, 24). Indirectly, people had to listen because anyone who said he was sent from God and has superhuman abilities, seems more credible than someone just speaking without any power to show (see 1 Cor. 4:20). So, the miracles were also God's own testimony that he commissioned a vessel.

We too should follow the example of Jesus Christ in everything including in our method of evangelism. So, the reason for miracles?

1. As a bait to get people to listen. No wonder he said, "I will make you fishers of men" (Matthew 4:19).
2. As a proof that God is truly with you (see Acts 10:38; Mark 16:20)

Sharingiscaring:

Read through the ministry of Jesus. His method of evangelism was to use signs and wonders as a bait to draw people, to have their attention and to preach the message of the Kingdom of God to them (see Matthew 4:23, 24). Indirectly, people had to listen because anyone who said he was sent from God and has superhuman abilities, seems more credible than someone just speaking without any power to show (see 1 Cor. 4:20). So, the miracles were also God's own testimony that he commissioned a vessel.

After Moses there were many prophets in Israel that God sent to speak to his people but majority of them never performed one single sign.
WHY?
Because signs are for a purpose, not just a spectacular display of power but for things that's necessary.
You are totally wrong because the Ninevites believed Jonah's words without seeing a single sign {Luke 11:30} many first century Jews believed John the baptist without a single sign {John 10:41} there were prophets prior to John the baptist like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Habakkuk, Amos, Hosea, Nahum, Micah, Zephaniah, Malachi and others that never performed one single signs!
So it means if you lived during their time you would have joined their antagonizers after all they're not performing any signs for you so why should you believe their words? Yet what they penned down is recorded as part of the inspired writings that Paul said is benefitial for TEACHING, REPROVING, SETTING MATTERS STRAIGHT and for DISCIPLINING IN RIGHTEOUSNESS! 2Timothy 3:16

We too should follow the example of Jesus Christ in everything including in our method of evangelism. So, the reason for miracles?
1. As a bait to get people to listen. No wonder he said, "I will make you fishers of men" (Matthew 4:19).
2. As a proof that God is truly with you (see Acts 10:38)

Jesus performed lots and lots of miraculous deeds amongst the Jews but how many believed in him? This is the same person who was condemned before a Roman Governor when that one asked them to choose between Jesus and Barabbas (a notorious criminal), so it wasn't the miracles that draw faithful ones, most of those who saw his miracles and even performed miracles in his name later turned back and never thought of following him again {John 6:66} those who stood firm with Jesus did so for his WORDS not miracles Sir! John 6:68-69

I've told you the purpose for which the Miracles were necessary and since that has been fulfilled nothing not even all those opposing the truth can force God to perform signs to convince them {Matthew 12:29} if they don't believe JWs with all the WORKS of God's Holy Spirit as prophesied in the scriptures to be signs of pure worship they'll surely not believe even if we wake Gbenga Adeboye today! Luke 16:27-31

So it's the WORDS of wisdom that's keeping the faith of true worshipers not miraculous signs! Habakkuk 2:4; Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11

MaxInDHouse:
Thanks for your response!

Where most Bible readers often miss out is not knowing the exact utterances that's directly referring to them.
First of all the Bible book of Mark Chapter 16 actually ended in verse 8 so the additional verses were not found in earlier manuscripts!
Secondly Jesus wasn't talking about miraculous healings when he said those that believe in him will do GREATER WORKS unless you just want to deceive yourself. Timothy was a bonafide member of the first century Christian congregation if what you're quoting is real why didn't the first century Christians heal Timothy miraculously instead of asking him to start drinking wine to manage his stomach ulcer? 1Timothy 5:23
The signs and wonders were only to show the Jews that God's promise regarding the new covenant has been fulfilled so whoever wants to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should henceforth join the Christians.
That's why Paul told the Christians in Corinth that all those gifts WILL SEIZE {1Corinthians 13:8} and what will remain as identifying mark of pure worship is LOVE! 1Corinthians 13:13 compare to John 13:34-35

But if you want to believe otherwise it's OK, i wish you good luck in your search for Christians who are performing GREATER MIRACULOUS WORKS than Jesus Christ of Nazareth!

Again, thank you for your patience and all. First, I want to let you know that I am enjoying my discussions with you especially because of your scriptural depth.

In Acts 17:11, the Berean Jews were commended as being "noble-minded" (and some translations say "open-minded" because they searched the scriptures with the aim to ascertain the truth and nothing but the truth - which is also my only aim for bringing this discussion here.

Based on this, I think it would be be more noble of us to stop using such jarring lines as "unless you want to deceive yourself" or "but if you want to believe otherwise...". I don't think we should be here just to win an argument. If that was our reason for this, I wouldn't be a part of it because I have a lot of things demanding my attention (likewise you, I believe) - after all, there's no trophy to win.

Rather, my own reasoning is that NO ONE KNOWS IT ALL. Hence, the need for discussions such as the ones the Bereans did and the one we are doing now. With this in mind, let me respond to your latest points:

Let me start with 1 Cor. 13:8 - about the seizure of prophesy, knowledge, and tongues. Yeah, healing and exorcism weren't mentioned there but they are implied. However, KNOWLEDGE is mentioned as one of the gifts that will pass away. Yet, knowledge is still here with us (at least, without trying to flatter you, YOU are displaying a lot of knowledge). This proves to me that the prophesy of Paul that those gifts WILL SEIZE is referring to the age to come. Otherwise, YOU wouldn't have this great knowledge that you have right now.

Then, coming to the supremacy of love in the worship of God (which you've been hammering on), I have this to say: Don't you think that healing the sick should be an important part of that love? For example, there are many instances in Jesus' life (eg. Matthew 14:14) that reveals that he healed because he was moved by compassion for the sick. With so many people hurting due to a lot of ailing conditions, don't you think that healing the sick, for example, is an important part of that love you're talking about?

As for Mark 16:9-20 which you said wasn't in the original manuscript: Yeah, I think I've heard that from a Catholic theologian too. From my own deductions, I think it's more of an attempt to avoid the responsibility of verses 17 to 18 that made theologians say that. Because, how can you also explain away the appearance of Jesus to Mary Magdalene and other disciples which is also within those verses? And if miracles were no longer relevant around the time, what could make a scribe add those long passages and it was accepted in the churches of those days? I can't imagine a scribe of that era being so corrupt as to tell those long lines of lies against his revered Lord Jesus. For what? So, I think that the scribe had another credible source for those verses (even if they weren't in the original manuscript of Mark's Gospel).

Finally, concerning Timothy's case: If you look above, you will see my scripture-based answer to someone who asked me for the purpose of miracles in the life of the church. I see that it's mainly to prove to unbelievers that you are truly of God and to bait them to listen to the message of God that you bear. This is a possible reason why Timothy didn't need a miracle because his faith was already confirmed. The same goes for Paul's "thorn in my flesh" in 2 Cor. 12:7ff which he asked God to remove but the Lord told him that "my grace is sufficient for you". From that scripture, I understand why God may give such a burden to a chosen vessel: It's to protect him/her from getting proud of the extraordinary abilities he/she has in Christ. See the underlined in the screenshot below:

Sharingiscaring:

Again, thank you for your patience and all. First, I want to let you know that I am enjoying my discussions with you especially because of your scriptural depth.
In Acts 17:11, the Berean Jews were commended as being "noble-minded" (and some translations say "open-minded" because they searched the scriptures with the aim to ascertain the truth and nothing but the truth - which is also my only aim for bringing this discussion here.

The Beroeans didn't just believed the Apostles due to miracles happening in their midst back then, Thessalonians on the other hand didn't bother much to ascertain what those Christians were saying in the scriptures. WHY? The miracles is sufficient for them. That's why the scriptures say that Beroeans were more noble minded than the Thessalonians!

Based on this, I think it would be be more noble of us to stop using such jarring lines as "unless you want to deceive yourself" or "but if you want to believe otherwise...". I don't think we should be here just to win an argument. If that was our reason for this, I wouldn't be a part of it because I have a lot of things demanding my attention (likewise you, I believe) - after all, there's no trophy to win.
Rather, my own reasoning is that NO ONE KNOWS IT ALL. Hence, the need for discussions such as the ones the Bereans did and the one we are doing now. With this in mind, let me respond to your latest points:

Divine Wisdom has nothing to do with give and take, when we're not on the same page it's either i accept that you know better and humbly learn from you or you accept that i know better and humbly learn from me, there is no sitting on the fence! {Act 18:24-26} to you i may be knowledgeable but to me you're just credulous, and obviously you don't want the TRUTH!

Let me start with 1 Cor. 13:8 - about the seizure of prophesy, knowledge, and tongues. Yeah, healing and exorcism weren't mentioned there but they are implied. However, KNOWLEDGE is mentioned as one of the gifts that will pass away. Yet, knowledge is still here with us (at least, without trying to flatter you, YOU are displaying a lot of knowledge). This proves to me that the prophesy of Paul that those gifts WILL SEIZE is referring to the age to come. Otherwise, YOU wouldn't have this great knowledge that you have right now.

You are wrong again here! The knowledge Paul was referring to was what the Apostles received from God through God's Holy Spirit to establish Christianity, based on this knowledge whoever thought he knows anything contrary to what they preached and taught is just deceiving himself because there is no knowledge anywhere again apart from what they laid down {Galatians 1:8} Jesus taught them and they in turn taught us so everything we want to do in Christianity must be according to what they taught us. Because the gift of the Holy Spirit to TEACH them things Jesus never laid down has siezed! {1Corinthians 13:8} What you're seeing in me now is no special knowledge but what was passed onto the Governing Body of JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES through thorough study and meditation on the writings of the Apostles, and was passed onto me today. That's why i must direct whoever any person who think i'm knowledgeable to the Governing Body of JWs who taught the whole Organization, while the Governing Body direct us to the writings of the Apostles! 1Corinthians 4:7

Then, coming to the supremacy of love in the worship of God (which you've been hammering on), I have this to say: Don't you think that healing the sick should be an important part of that love? For example, there are many instances in Jesus' life (eg. Matthew 14:14) that reveals that he healed because he was moved by compassion for the sick. With so many people hurting due to a lot of ailing conditions, don't you think that healing the sick, for example, is an important part of that love you're talking about?

The miracles aren't an expression of LOVE from the believers otherwise you're saying all those prophets of God who never performed miracles don't have LOVE. Is that what you mean?
God promised those will happen as a sign that He (God) is no more using the Jewish religious system anymore rather anyone who want his/her worship to be acceptable before God must join the Christians!

As for Mark 16:9-20 which you said wasn't in the original manuscript. Yeah, I think I've heard that from a Catholic theologian too. For my own deductions, I think it's more of an attempt to avoid the responsibility of verses 17 to 18 that made theologians say that. Because, how can you also explain away the appearance of Jesus to Mary Magdalene which is also within those verses? And if miracles were no longer relevant around the time, what could make a scribe add those long passages and it was accepted in the churches of those days?

Those adding to God's word don't want you to suspect so they'll copy few facts to blur the sense of unsuspecting readers, but the truth can't be hidden for ever. Muhammad (Arabian) tried to establish himself as a prophet of the same God by mentioning names all the popular Israelite prophets, added Jesus and himself. But that's cannot confuse inquisitive Bible scholars! John 8:32

Finally, concerning Timothy's case: If you look above, you will see my scripture-based answer to someone who asked me for the purpose of miracles in the life of the church. I see that it's mainly to prove to unbelievers that you are truly of God and to bait them to listen to the message of God that you bear. This is a possible reason why Timothy didn't need a miracle because his faith was already confirmed. The same goes for Paul's "thorn in my flesh" in 2 Cor. 12:7ff which he asked God to remove but the Lord told him that "my grace is sufficient for you". From that scripture, I understand why God may give such a burden to a chosen vessel: It's to protect him/her from getting proud of the extraordinary abilities he/she has in Christ. See the underlined in the screenshot below:

The truth is that those signs were for a purpose and it has been accomplished that's all {1Corinthians 13:9-10} when a new baby is born you and i know the features everyone needs to see in a new born baby but when the child becomes an adult no right thinking person expects the childish things to continue! 1Corinthians 13:11

Christianity has grown passed that stage so we are not expecting any miracles again rather what we're anticipating now is God's Kingdom where nobody will need miracles for any reason whatsoever! Isaiah 33:24

Thanks!

MaxInDHouse:
Thanks for your response!

Where most Bible readers often miss out is not knowing the exact utterances that's directly referring to them.
First of all the Bible book of Mark Chapter 16 actually ended in verse 8 so the additional verses were not found in earlier manuscripts!
Secondly Jesus wasn't talking about miraculous healings when he said those that believe in him will do GREATER WORKS unless you just want to deceive yourself. Timothy was a bonafide member of the first century Christian congregation if what you're quoting is real why didn't the first century Christians heal Timothy miraculously instead of asking him to start drinking wine to manage his stomach ulcer? 1Timothy 5:23
The signs and wonders were only to show the Jews that God's promise regarding the new covenant has been fulfilled so whoever wants to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob should henceforth join the Christians.
That's why Paul told the Christians in Corinth that all those gifts WILL SEIZE {1Corinthians 13:8} and what will remain as identifying mark of pure worship is LOVE! 1Corinthians 13:13 compare to John 13:34-35

But if you want to believe otherwise it's OK, i wish you good luck in your search for Christians who are performing GREATER MIRACULOUS WORKS than Jesus Christ of Nazareth!

Ehn en! So gifts seized! Prophecies seized, knowledge also seized? Tell me JWs only saw Jesus in ,1914 . .Wbat year exactly did all these seized. Answer directly with evidence.

Sharingiscaring:
No one doubts that Jesus commanded us to love, saying that love was going to be our identity as in John 13:35. But he also said that performing extraordinary acts would be our identity too as in Mark 16:15-18 which says, "Go into the WHOLE WORLD and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. But he that does not believe shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".

Look at that scripture: Jesus commanded his immediate listeners to go out to the WHOLE WORLD and preach to EVERY CREATURE. Next, he says that those who believe (among EVERY CREATURE in the WHOLE WORLD) will have the characteristics in the bolded lines. The WHOLE WORLD included Nigeria and EVERY CREATURE included YOU and ME. Or, don't you think so?

That's a confirmation that John 14:12 is talking about miracles and not just love as you say. He mentioned our identities as love for one another and also as the ability to perform super-human acts (since we became superhuman through our oneness with him in love). Now, for me, accepting one identity while denying the other amounts to an attempt to escape half of your responsibility as a believer in Jesus Christ.

Remember that the statement on John 14:12 was part of the discussion that the Lord Jesus concluded with a prayer in John Chapter 17 where he said, "I'm not only praying for THESE ONES but also for those who will come to believe in me through their words" (verse 20).

I hope you will read this with a mind to know the will of God, and not just for the sake of winning an argument. It's my response to you after long hours of prayerful reflections on the matter. Moreover, I hope you know that the phrase "that your empty skull" that you used above is a contradiction of the Christian love you've been talking about. Thank you.

I am still trying to understand what your true cause here is. Are you trying to convince those who no longer believe in the Power of the Word that miracles still happen even today?
Or are you trying to find those who already use these powers to do the works Jesus Christ commanded? If yes to the latter, then my next question is why?

I am through with you!

MightySparrow:

Ehn en! So gifts seized! Prophecies seized, knowledge also seized? Tell me JWs only saw Jesus in ,1914 . .Wbat year exactly did all these seized. Answer directly with evidence.

MaxInDHouse:
I am through with you!

Why what you claim to have seized is still evidenced all over the world and ages, lands and climes. The one you claim to have happened has no evidence. At least there should be people who are still alive who knew by story or rumours.
When, where and how did spiritual gifts seized?


The supremacy of love you talked about is errant nonsense. Is love work? If yes, how has your love as work prevented wars, Fulani herders killings not to talk of World Wars? JW organisation not minding the transformations started in 1887. So wha has that love therapy done for the world? Delusion.

Face the OP, he threw up the quagmire staining all those claiming Christians:
Where is ANY Christian doing greater works than Jesus did today?
Maximus came to enlighten him that Jesus wasn't talking about miraculous works and proved using the scriptures with substantial amount of proof.
So if your own belief is that there are many performing GREATER miraculous WORKs than Jesus today please face the OP who asked for it not me Sir!

MightySparrow:


Why what you claim to have seized is still evidenced all over the world and ages, lands and climes. The one you claim to have happened has no evidence. At least there should be people who are still alive who knew by story or rumours.
When, where and how did spiritual gifts seized?


The supremacy of love you talked about is errant nonsense. Is love work? If yes, how has your love as work prevented wars, Fulani herders killings not to talk of World Wars? JW organisation not minding the transformations started in 1887. So wha has that love therapy done for the world? Delusion.

Sharingiscaring:

No one doubts that Jesus commanded us to love, saying that love was going to be our identity as in John 13:35. But he also said that performing extraordinary acts would be our identity too as in Mark 16:15-18 which says, "Go into the WHOLE WORLD and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. But he that does not believe shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover".

Look at that scripture: Jesus commanded his immediate listeners to go out to the WHOLE WORLD and preach to EVERY CREATURE. Next, he says that those who believe (among EVERY CREATURE in the WHOLE WORLD) will have the characteristics in the bolded lines. The WHOLE WORLD included Nigeria and EVERY CREATURE included YOU and ME. Or, don't you think so?

That's a confirmation that John 14:12 is talking about miracles and not just love as you say. He mentioned our identities as love for one another and also as the ability to perform super-human acts (since we became superhuman through our oneness with him in love). Now, for me, accepting one identity while denying the other amounts to an attempt to escape half of your responsibility as a believer in Jesus Christ.

Remember that the statement on John 14:12 was part of the discussion that the Lord Jesus concluded with a prayer in John Chapter 17 where he said, "I'm not only praying for THESE ONES but also for those who will come to believe in me through their words" (verse 20).

I hope you will read this with a mind to know the will of God, and not just for the sake of winning an argument. It's my response to you after long hours of prayerful reflections on the matter. Moreover, I hope you know that the phrase "that your empty skull" that you used above is a contradiction of the Christian love you've been talking about. Thank you.

Cc: Kobojunkie, Paxonel, Mightysparrow, janosky.

Bros, Jesus did NOT speak your DUBIOUS script of Mark16:15-18.

John 13:35 is the only genuine mark of Jehovah's Servants, according to Jesus Christ.
Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus confirmed he will disown & disappoint miracle workers when he executes judgement.

John 14:12 references Matthew 24:13-14 & Mark13:10, no dey DECEIVE yourself.


Go to your Trinity mentors ,NIV and gotquestions (in screenshots) and receive tutorials on the Mark 16:15-18 fraud DECEIVING you.
Bros no dey DECEIVE yourself.

My brother, i tire o!

He purposely asked the question to show that he can't find true Christians performing any greater MIRACULOUS WORKS than Jesus did, but when i now explain to him the meaning of what he read he wants to start arguing again instead of showing appreciation for the truth!

Jesus said it, they just prefer darkness to light.
What they'll continue dragging hopelessly rather than what is clear!

Janosky:


Bros, Jesus did NOT speak your DUBIOUS script of Mark16:15-18.

John 13:35 is the only genuine mark of Jehovah's Servants, according to Jesus Christ.
Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus confirmed he will disown & disappoint miracle workers when he executes judgement.

John 14:12 references Matthew 24:13-14 & Mark13:10, no dey DECEIVE yourself.


Go to your Trinity mentors ,NIV and gotquestions (in screenshots) and receive tutorials on the Mark 16:15-18 fraud DECEIVING you.
Bros no dey DECEIVE yourself.