Debroslink:


Boss, trophies matter a lot too, especially when you are a key player. One of the main reasons Okocha never won African player of the year is lack of trophies in his club career.

If Messi retired without a NT trophy, do you think the noise pollution would reduce at all? That's what journalists and punters would use against him when they are ranking GOAT in football. Do you think it was a joke when players lifted Messi to the skies instead of the coach after COPA victory?

ThierryJay:


Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying trophies dont matter. Messi's Copa win was a relief to us all cos it officially validates his all-round greatness and is good for his GOAT CV and I agree with you on that point. But that is all that Copa trophy does: validation of what was already known, rather than significantly change any perception.

My key point is that if one player is clearly better individually than another, no amount of trophies can reverse that fact.

Case in point, the fact that Henry Thierry won World Cup, Euros, Confederations cup and reached another WC final in addition to being instrumental to all these wins (13 goals in 4 tournaments) does not make him better or greater than Cristiano Ronaldo who only managed a single Euro win.

Even Cristiano is generally regarded above Zidane who won more key trophies. It is because of his individual prowess. This is my point.

Debroslink:


No player in this century has ever matched up to the level of Messi and CR7. But even Messi had to Labour for that elusive senior trophy. If Messi didn't win it, questions of being the GOAT will be raised after his retirement.

Henry may have won more NT trophies, but every football fan knows that he was always in Zidane's shadows. Zidane didn't play 2002 WC and we all saw how Henry flopped woefully and couldn't make the Ko stage in a group that had the likes of Senegal.

So back to basis. Are you really saying that individually, Gerrard is better than Modric?

FirstbornWds:
How much do you know Barcelona? This is ahead of the Gamper trophy ahead.

Tell us the names of these players that featured for both Barcelona and Juventus without consulting google or any external source.

FirstbornWds:
Cont'd

ThierryJay:


Methinks first pic is Pablo Sorin. The other three are obvious.

FirstbornWds:


E still remain.

ThierryJay:


Thanks for admitting that its individuality first before trophies. A GOAT is expected to have both so I agree with you on that.

Just a slight point of correction, Zidane played either the game against Senegal or the last game against Denmark in 02 WC, so the failure of France at that tourney was collective as Henry also missed the second and third games due to an early red card. Also, Zidane did not play in the 2003 confed cup in which Henry won golden ball.

To your initial argument, frankly I consider Gerard and Modric to be at similar level/in same class. Gerard produced more spirited spectacular individual displays while Modric is more technically gifted and consistent similar to Xavi. So using trophies won to separate them is in order and on that basis, I believe Modric edges Gerard out in greatness.

But if I have a choice in a single crucial match, I'll take a prime Gerard over prime Modric.

FirstbornWds:


E still remain.

Debroslink:


In crucial matches, I'll pick Modric over Gerrard anytime. I'll rather have balance and direction in my midfield, than have a player who chokes and fails in crucial matches such as the ones below...

Look at number 2 and 7 for God's sake.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YVHGKJNrw8

Debroslink:


In crucial matches, I'll pick Modric over Gerrard anytime. I'll rather have balance and direction in my midfield, than have a player who chokes and fails in crucial matches such as the ones below...

Look at number 2 and 7 for God's sake.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YVHGKJNrw8

Henry must really love playing against this guy

ThierryJay:


That was below the belt and frankly Gerards cup of tea (which most great players have including Messi and CR), but doesnt diminish his standing.

In reverse fashion, can you give me a match where Modric overwhelming orchestrated the downfall of elite opponent in a high profile match like Gerard did to Real Madrid in 2007, AC Milan in 2005, FA Cup final in 2006?

pu7pl3:


Henry must really love playing against this guy

Debroslink:


1. Came from the bench to knock out Man utd from UCL round 16 by providing a goal and assist

2. Provided the assist in Madrid's fifa club world Cup in 2016

3. Provided an assist in UCL final against Juventus in 2017

Do you want some more?

Now your turn. Can you provide some scenarios where Modric cost his team of some major trophies?

Debroslink:


1. Came from the bench to knock out Man utd from UCL round 16 by providing a goal and assist

2. Provided the assist in Madrid's fifa club world Cup in 2016

3. Provided an assist in UCL final against Juventus in 2017

Do you want some more?

Now your turn. Can you provide some scenarios where Modric cost his team of some major trophies?

Debroslink:


U for go find players of Rivaldo's era. Dem Cocu, De Boer brothers, Saviola, Sony Anderson, Overmars, etc

ThierryJay:


None of those three you mentioned matches Gerard's spectacular output against Madrid in 2007 and in the UCL and FA cup final where liverpool were several goals behind before magic started. A single assist in finals does not qualify as a spectacular performance.

Even Messi has given balls away that resulted in goals for the opponent or lost crucial penalties so that is not a differentiating yardstick.

Like I said, while Modric may be better on an overall note, I prefer Gerard's more spectacular individual impact. If only he was more consistent in his quality performances, we wouldn't even have a contest in the first place.

ThierryJay:


None of those three you mentioned matches Gerard's spectacular output against Madrid in 2007 and in the UCL and FA cup final where liverpool were several goals behind before magic started. A single assist in finals does not qualify as a spectacular performance.

Even Messi has given balls away that resulted in goals for the opponent or lost crucial penalties so that is not a differentiating yardstick.

Like I said, while Modric may be better on an overall note, I prefer Gerard's more spectacular individual impact. If only he was more consistent in his quality performances, we wouldn't even have a contest in the first place.

pu7pl3:


I'm sure you're of the opinion that Xavi is better than Gerrard yes? Can you lost his own spectacular outputs too?

FirstbornWds:
How much do you know Barcelona? This is ahead of the Gamper trophy ahead.

Tell us the names of these players that featured for both Barcelona and Juventus without consulting google or any external source.

DissTroy:


Actually, he has reasons to. The boy witnessed Bartomeu buy and pay wages to subpar players he could contest shirts with at outrageous rates so he wants he share too.
Bad timing though but[b] he should have planned his heist earlier.

FirstbornWds:
Cont'd

DissTroy:


Actually, he has reasons to. The boy witnessed Bartomeu buy and pay wages to subpar players he could contest shirts with at outrageous rates so he wants he share too.
Bad timing though but he should have planned his heist earlier.

Debroslink:


Brother, what are you talking about? Gerrard's fine display against Madrid didn't win them the UCL that season. Pirlo knocked him out in the final.

I dropped assists provided by Modric which won his team the UCL, but you are dropping Gerrard's FA Cup. Can't you see the difference?

When important matches came up, I showed you videos of Gerrard costing Liverpool the EPL title and failing his NT.

No matter how you see it, his errors are greater than his exploits.

Modric hardly makes errors. Rather, he drives his team to glory.

Debroslink:


In crucial matches, I'll pick Modric over Gerrard anytime. I'll rather have balance and direction in my midfield, than have a player who chokes and fails in crucial matches such as the ones below...

Look at number 2 and 7 for God's sake.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YVHGKJNrw8

ThierryJay:


You are totally missing the point. I do not dispute that Modric is an overall greater player than Gerard and that is largely due to his consistency in quality just like Xavi.

My point is Gerard has better individual outputs than Modric has when both are on song. In fact he is renowned for this. When you think of Istanbul, FA Cup 2007, Real Madrid 07, Olympiakos 04, you think of Gerard alone as the instigator, the magician, the driver in all these matches. Modric, like Xavi, on the other hand is more systemic. So when you talk of UCL final 16, Club world cup final and co, he is regarded more as a contributor in those victories rather than as the protagonist.

This attribute of Gerard is what I preferred over Modric. Gerard's drawback is that he isnt as consistent in delivering magic on a regular basis like Iniesta for club and country and that is why Modric ranks above him.

ThierryJay:


Before you hastily jumped on my mention, you should have checked my earlier posts and see where I stated that Modric like Xavi edges out Gerard cos they are more technically gifted and consistent.

I only said I preferred Gerard's better individual spectacular outputs in key games to Modric's. You sha want me to add Xavi

ThierryJay:


But if I have a choice in a single crucial match, I'll take a prime Gerard over prime Modric.

pu7pl3:




Since Xavi and Modric are similar, will you also pick Gerrard over Xavi in a single crucial match?

If no, end this arguement right now we are tired of it

ThierryJay:


You are totally missing the point. I do not dispute that Modric is an overall greater player than Gerard and that is largely due to his consistency in quality just like Xavi.

My point is Gerard has better individual outputs than Modric has when both are on song. In fact he is renowned for this. When you think of Istanbul, FA Cup 2007, Real Madrid 07, Olympiakos 04, you think of Gerard alone as the instigator, the magician, the driver in all these matches. Modric, like Xavi, on the other hand is more systemic.