₦airaland Forum

AndSunGorilla:
Until the dutch guys provoked him. But I think there was a copa America where against Chile where Messi got a red.card for some kungfu or something like that. In this world cup, Messi has shown leadership and really led this current team and the Copa America winning one too.

LordTheus:
Which eye witness? You?

Marjoribanks:
The Argentines did not win the midfield battle. All their goals came for counter attack. The Croat underestimated the Argentines by pushing too many men forward while leaving the defense open. Nevertheless, you comparing, Rabiot, Tcho and Greizman trio to33 year old Modric, bench warmer Kovacic is laughable!

Mujtahida:
Messi no go win. The debate must not be settled. It must go on. I'm sorry Messi. You deserve it but the fates can be cruel.

Brazil were not even favorites for the WC Title in 1958 until the entrance of Pele. Sweden, The Soviets and France were the Favorites. Hungary were there but not the force they were in 1954.

Pele is the one who gave them that extra edge when he returned from injury in the last group game and kept his place in the KO stages from the Quarter finals vs Wales. Brazil rode on the back of his goals to their first World Cup title. He was just 17.

OVERRATED?? Go check your records again!

Do you know it was Pele's insane Jogo Bonito talents that made the coach return to Brazil's Original style of play, moving away from the already rising "European style" that was beginning to dominate tactical discussions back then in the late 50s especially after Brazil's failure in 1950?

Without Pele, there would be no first world cup for Brazil. The same records you speak of say that much. 6 goals in 3 WC KO games from Quarterfinals to The final from a 17 year old boy is GOAT level.

So yes, Pele carried the Brazillian national team and history knows this.

I didn't just check the records, I studied that era for as long as I can remember since I was a boy. Old newspaper reports accessed online, first hand witness reports, clips, videos thanks to my dad who regularly visited Brazil back in my childhood days and before that, in his bachelor days (he kept them)... and ofcos today, we have hundreds of YouTube Clips of Pele's magic in Brazil and Santos colors.

Pele also made Santos the Best and most dominant clubside in world football back then. They were so good that they were invited by the top European leagues back then to come play against their clubsides on various European tours. Santos was to contracted to ensure Pele made all the trips which is reason why he hardly played in the Copa Libertadores back then.

You reference 1962 to make your point about Pele not carrying Brazil but even that tournament saw Pele score in their first game. A beautiful goal that saw him beat 4 players. Pele entered that tournament as the undisputed Best player on the planet.
He got injured in the second game vs Czech Slovakia and Brazil felt the blow.... that game ended goalless... but also being reigning World Champs and with Pele still present with them from the sidelines, they still rallied round and dug deep to go ahead and win the whole thing. Guys like Garrincha, arguably the best right winger/best dribbling wing wizard of his time, Vava and Amarildo stepped up.

Now here's the question....

Why didn't this stars-studded side win it without him (as he was mostly injured) then in 1966?

Pele played the first game and scored in Brazil's win in the first game. A sublime freekick goal vs Bulgaria. Garrincha also scored in that game.

But the Bulgarians kicked up Pele so much that he got injured and had to miss the second game vs Hungary. Garrincha and Tostao couldn't do anything here as they fell 3-1.

They knew they needed Pele even though he was still injured and would only be close to half fit if they forced him to play the last game. Eventually they did and Portugal led by Eusebio also roughed up Pele all game and won 3-1.

Pele's time in the NT was nearing an end and he was even said to have stepped away before 1970 but he was called back into the NT in 1968/1969 for the Qualifiers and he came in scoring 6 goals in 6 games in the Qualifiers

1970 World Cup.... You mention Jairzinho who bagged 7 goals. Do you know who assisted most of his goals? Answer is Pele. With 3 assists.

Jairzinho bagged 7 goals and 1 assist in that tournament.

Tostao bagged 2 goals and 4 assists

But Pele... bagged 4 goals and 6 assists in his final world cup showing including 1 goal and 2 assists in the final vs Italy in that famous 4-1 win. And one of those 2 assists came for Jairzinho.
[\quote]

The argument is not that he wasn't good. The argument is if he was the undisputed best player in all three world cups. If you want to argue that he won the golden ball in 1970, which was well-deserved, as his total contribution, goals, and assists were impressive, I could also argue that someone was assisting him in 1958, and well he didn't win the golden ball in that tournament.
[quote]Pele was the creative hub of the Brazillian side all through his career. Some people mistake him for a striker but he was not a striker. He was the man behind the striker. He was a Trequartista, withdrawn forward, or some would even say a number 10.

He was so good that anytime he played alongside Garrincha (another great), Brazil never lost a game except only once.

You are talking up Jairzinho as if he was the main man of the Brazil 1970 side. Abeg, why didn't he lead Brazil to WC Glory in 1974 without Pele? He still had Rivellino and some others from 1970 naa. Wetin happen?
[\quote]
The Balon'dor wasn't awarded then, so it's not relevant. At every world cup? What of 1962? Tell us what happened.
[quote]So no... you are wrong. Pele indeed carried Brazil. The obvious stand out player in that Brazillian team at every World Cup and even France Football admits he was the rightful winner of 7 ballon dors in that period if we were to award the prize based on the current unrestricted criteria as back then the prize was restricted only to European players.

Also, you are wrong about Stars-studded Brazil in 1958. Brazil in 1958 wasn't stars-studded. You say this because they won the world cup.
The story behind that team and the buildup to that tournament is lost on you. You clearly don't know.

Even in the group stages, Brazil were still not favourites until Pele showed his face. Until Pele returned from the injury that he nursed before the WC began. Brazil took an injured Pele to the WC and immediately installed him as soon as he was fit enough - not even 100% to play and he came and brought out the best in Garrincha, Vava, Zagallo, etc in a rejigged 4-2-4 formation.

That team also had Didi who after the 1958 WC became recognised as one of the best midfielders on the planet but before the tournament kicked off, he wasn't rated in that class at all.

It is the same vibe with Sofyan Amrabat of Morocco today. Now he is rated worldwide only because of what he has shown at Qatar 2022.

And what's wrong if the best South American players were playing in South America?
Even Pele was sought after by the finest European clubsides but Brazil declared him a national treasure and refused to entertain any transfer offer for Pele.
Back then, the current money boom in the Euro leagues also wasn't too obvious.
It wasn't at same level so ofcos the best South American lads stayed home and formed some of the best clubsides to grace the planet in then very high quality competitive Brazillian league...

Lastly, about relevant continents even if Africa had been allowed back then in 1958, there won't be much difference in WC outcomes. We all saw, from the records, Zaire in 1974. The best in African football as at that period getting roasted before the eyes of the world. There were in-camp issues ofcos and issues that contributed to destabilising them from back home no thanks to their dictator-leader back then but the bottomline is Africa's best was not ready to compete then. The quality was still low. Very low. They weren't good enough in 1974 so our level in the 50s were obviously not up to par. Besides, we just had our first official Afcon tournament in 1957... that was a year before the 1958 WC. There was simply no chance for Africa yet back then as we were still building our level.

It was Tunisia in 1978 who began to show that Africa was on its way to growth in the sport. Tunisia got Africa's first World cup match win vs Mexico that year. The rest is history.

So in conclusion, Pele's greatness and quality as a footballer is indeed talked down and somewhat watered down by some of you because you haven't dug enough into history to know all there is.
Undisputed? Was he in 1962?

None of us were born then but like I already stated... the records, clips, match reports and all else are still there on the Internet. A little more extra research will help you understand just how undisputed Pele was to Brazil's WC winning sides.

1962... Pele led the show, got injured and It was mostly Garrincha.

1966... Pele injured again and smacked up and Brazil fell.

1970... Pele returns and was again the Main Man.

1974... No Pele... Jairzinho and Rivellino just fell away.

You welcome.

Mujtahida:
Thing is that he's grown from since when Maradona made that statement but on the whole the guy is a quiet person.

charlesemeka85:
This una long note analysis don do abeg, it becoming boring and needless

charlesemeka85:
This una long note analysis don do abeg, it becoming boring and needless

AndSunGorilla:
You are absolutely correct and not forgetting that Maradona coached him in 2010. Related story, there is a video I saw on LinkedIn of the moment Argentina won the penalties against the dutch and all the other players ran towards Lautaro but only Messi went to celebrate with the main hero, Martinez, that to me was awesome. Mark of a very good leader!!!

Danielnino00:
Not being a Messi or Ronaldo fanboy has made this world cup enjoyable for me more

Can't wait for Sunday.. I'll join the victorious party to rejoice and troll the other

benji93:
1. Please whenever you
You missed the entire point. I did acknowledge what he did in 1958 in the knockout stages, but I then went further to say that the star-studdedness of that team was confirmed in 1962, because he was injured for most of it but they won. I never said he was overrated. What i said was his three world cups were overrated. The narrative is that they couldn't have won without him, but there's at least one in which they won without him.

Thanks for the information, but it's not useful here. The question is who contributed the most to those championships. Did he single-handedly do it, did he play alongside other stars who at least equally contributed in each of those championships?

I don't disagree. He was very impressive in 1958. But he didn't win the golden ball. I suppose others many others at the time thought there was a more important player.

He didn't in 1962. Even in 1958, there were players who were just as important. Fifa says he wasn't the best player in that tournament.

I don't understand how this anecdote is relevant to the conversation. Whatever your dad provided to you when you were a child is on the internet today. I guarantee that every piece of relevant information is floating around somewhere. Unless your dad was in Brazil in the 50s, in which perhaps he could get access to information firsthand that may not be on the news(very unlikely), the information your dad passed down to you is secondhand at best.

Although not the subject of the conversation, he was certainly incredible for Santos. No argument here.


What is this? Did they win without him or not? It's in the past, so a more fruitful argument should focus on what actually happened. He could have been the best player in the entire universe for all I care. Unfortunately, he got injured, and they cruised through without him. That is the point. They replaced him with another player in the midfield-forward combo and they still won.

Did he play in the last game or not? They roughed him up blablabla. That one na shalaye. . As the researcher extraordinaire, did you not know that Garrincha was injured in 1966 too? He did not play the last game, and they lost. Pele missed the second, they lost, and Garrincha missed the last and they lost.

Also as the senior researcher look at the squads in 1958, 1962 and 1966. 1966 was quite different from the previous 2. 1966 had Lima, Denilson, Pele, Garrincha, Jairzinho and Alcindo. Pele and Garrincha were the only players from the previous 8 years still in this squad. Besides apart from his injury Garrincha was old, overweight e.t.c.
Nothing here. You cannot objectively compare 1966 to the previous 8 years. Many of the players from their golden generation were old and tired, so it's not strange 1966 was underwhelming.

Can you tell us who assisted Pele's goals in 1958? . Do you know that even in the 1958 world cup, Didi was the best player over Pele and Garrincha?

Jairzinho bagged 7 goals and 1 assist in that tournament.

Tostao bagged 2 goals and 4 assists

But Pele... bagged 4 goals and 6 assists in his final world cup showing including 1 goal and 2 assists in the final vs Italy in that famous 4-1 win. And one of those 2 assists came for Jairzinho.

The argument is not that he wasn't good. The argument is if he was the undisputed best player in all three world cups. If you want to argue that he won the golden ball in 1970, which was well-deserved, as his total contribution, goals, and assists were impressive, I could also argue that someone was assisting him in 1958, and well he didn't win the golden ball in that tournament.


You are talking up Jairzinho as if he was the main man of the Brazil 1970 side. Abeg, why didn't he lead Brazil to WC Glory in 1974 without Pele? He still had Rivellino and some others from 1970 naa. Wetin happen?

mostob:

me, I dey wait for the next response which may not be nice.

charlesemeka85:
This una long note analysis don do abeg, it becoming boring and needless

komekn:
Agreed without question ❓

benji93:
Waiting. .

mostob:
As if you're not guilty of same.

benji93:
Waiting. .

mostob:
As if you're not guilty of same.

charlesemeka85:
Nigeria & Morocco are the two African nations with the most clean sheets in FIFA World Cup history (7) �� ��

Danielnino00:
Nigeria and Benin republic have officially submitted a joint bid to host 2025 AFCON..
Algeria and Morocco also submitted a bid

Danielnino00:
Nigeria and Benin republic have officially submitted a joint bid to host 2025 AFCON..
Algeria and Morocco also submitted a bid

Mujtahida:
Messi no go win. The debate must not be settled. It must go on. I'm sorry Messi. You deserve it but the fates can be cruel.

Philosopher1979:
With all the insecurity in the country. Are we sure we can keep separatists, terrorists, criminals etc at bay.

Danielnino00:
Not being a Messi or Ronaldo fanboy has made this world cup enjoyable for me more

Can't wait for Sunday.. I'll join the victorious party to rejoice and troll the other

charlesemeka85:
nah he’s not

Danielnino00:
Nigeria and Benin republic have officially submitted a joint bid to host 2025 AFCON..
Algeria and Morocco also submitted a bid

mostob:
You say? Kome wey go write 3-paged thesis to defend Fred Onyedima #10 performance.