AlfaSeltzer:


When did I appoint you special advisor?

You didn’t but I’d still advise you to take a chill-pill. It’s Christmas. There’s little room for hate at this time of year so you’re better-off smoking a bit of weed, swallowing some tranquillisers, watching Tinsel and having a Christmas Eve Buck’s Fizz than trying to be deadly-tribalistic towards Igbos.

AjaanaOka:


Interesting take. Do you care to illustrate further on this, with examples?

According to linguists, Edo and Yoruba are closer to each other than either of them is to Igbo. Lexical similarity between Yoruba and Edo is calculated to be 56%, and only 51% for Yoruba and Igbo.

But I'll still like to know what informs your position.

I think Edo related more with yoruba than Igbo, and as such that must have increased the lexical similarity in both languages,(we surprisingly have far more words borrowed from Yoruba than Igbo) the other hand, yoruba and Igbo do not share any border at all as such,the 51 percent was not borrowed and showed some relationship between both tribes, many words in Edo today were borrowed from Yoruba and you can't find it in Igbo, that must have increased it to 56 percent, it might not have even be up to 50 percent before this time. Look at all the words there, if you place Edo side by side you will be shocked, it is either Edo has morphed so hard or it is totally unrelated to

I will give you an example of basic words that is on this list adding Edo to it, and you will see the stark difference, words related to part of the body that might not have been borrowed.

Igbo-nti-ear
Yoruba-eti-ear
Edo-Ehor-ear

Ura-sleep -Igbo
Orun-sleep-yoruba
Ovbe-sleep-Edo

Igbo-Ire-tongue
yoruba-Ede-tongue
Edo-Ahawmen-tongue

Olu-neck-yoruba
Orun-neck-Igbos
Eyean-neck-Edo

Igbo-aka-hand
Ika-yoruba-Finger
Edo-Obo-hand

Ulo-house in Igbo
Ile/Ule-house in yoruba
Owa- house in Edo

ọría = disease-Igbo
arun/aarun = disease-Igbo
also related to yoruba aarẹ and arirẹ
Edo-emiawmen-Disease

Igbo-agu
Yoruba-ekun
Edo-Atalakpa

Igbo-bia-come
Yoruba-wa-come, this seems to pass as cognate with the Igbo word for come which is bia
Edo-re,the root word for come in Edo is re. In Edoid languages the dominant seems to be "re" laire for Edos, yan"re" for the Urhobos, vbai"re" for the Esans and so on


and so on

Edo seem like a language that was not originally of the yeai branch but however was influenced into by socialization and association

when I have the time I will post others,

duro4chang:
What has yoruba done for you? I was told yoruba and Edo are related and also united

Don't mind them. They only claim us to get the number for their own political gains. We're wiser now. Jonathan's defeat in southwest and Obaseki's re-election bid exposed many things about their cunning nature. To be honest with you, everyone in Benin City today understands that it is better to have no political ally than to have them as one.

Before now, our votes have always aligned with them but I can't remember one project executed in Edo State by the Obasanjo administration despite our massive support. We've decided to stand alone or join forces with the old eastern region just like Delta State has done and has never regretted doing so.

We can trust the Igbo man better than them. Let them keep writing nonsense about Edo State because we rejected their evil party.

Osariemen12:



Don't mind them. They only claim us to get the number for their own political gains. We're wiser now. Jonathan's defeat in southwest and Obaseki's re-election bid exposed many things about their cunning nature. To be honest with you, everyone in Benin City today understands that it is better to have no political ally than to have them as one.

Before now, our votes have always aligned with them but I can't remember one project executed in Edo State by the Obasanjo administration despite our massive support. We've decided to stand alone or join forces with the old eastern region just like Delta State has done and has never regretted doing so.

We can trust the Igbo man better than them. Let them keep writing nonsense about Edo State because we rejected their evil party.

Are you referring to yoruba? Obasanjo did not do any project in their land too. Tony Aninh was the minister of works and he was edo. What did he do for edo? Yoruba is not your problem.

duro4chang:
Are you referring to yoruba? Obasanjo did not do any project in their land too.

Yes.

Osariemen12:

Yes.

Merry Christmas.

Probz:


You didn’t but I’d still advise you to take a chill-pill. It’s Christmas. There’s little room for hate at this time of year so you’re better-off smoking a bit of weed, swallowing some tranquillisers, watching Tinsel and having a Christmas Eve Buck’s Fizz than trying to be deadly-tribalistic towards Igbos.

A fool?

Igbo and Yoruba originated from the Niger-Congo language family, as well as Fula, Shona, Sesotho, Zulu, Akan, and Mooré. So similarities between these languages abounds. Not surprising.

duro4chang:
Merry Christmas.

The same to you, bro.

UGBE634:
I think Edo related more with yoruba than Igbo, and as such that must have increased the lexical similarity in both languages,(we surprisingly have far more words borrowed from Yoruba than Igbo) the other hand, yoruba and Igbo do not share any border at all as such,the 51 percent was not borrowed and showed some relationship between both tribes, many words in Edo today were borrowed from Yoruba and you can't find it in Igbo, that must have increased it to 56 percent, it might not have even be up to 50 percent before this time. Look at all the words there, if you place Edo side by side you will be shocked, it is either Edo has morphed so hard or it is totally unrelated to

I will give you an example of basic words that is on this list adding Edo to it, and you will see the stark difference, words related to part of the body that might not have been borrowed.

Igbo-nti-ear
Yoruba-eti-ear
Edo-Ehor-ear

Ura-sleep -Igbo
Orun-sleep-yoruba
Ovbe-sleep-Edo

Igbo-Ire-tongue
yoruba-Ede-tongue
Edo-Ahawmen-tongue

Olu-neck-yoruba
Orun-neck-Igbos
Eyean-neck-Edo

Igbo-aka-hand
Ika-yoruba-Finger
Edo-Obo-hand

Ulo-house in Igbo
Ile/Ule-house in yoruba
Owa- house in Edo

ọría = disease-Igbo
arun/aarun = disease-Igbo
also related to yoruba aarẹ and arirẹ
Edo-emiawmen-Disease

Igbo-agu
Yoruba-ekun
Edo-Atalakpa

Igbo-bia-come
Yoruba-wa-come, this seems to pass as cognate with the Igbo word for come which is bia
Edo-re,the root word for come in Edo is re. In Edoid languages the dominant seems to be "re" laire for Edos, yan"re" for the Urhobos, vbai"re" for the Esans and so on


and so on

Edo seem like a language that was not originally of the yeai branch but however was influenced into by socialization and association

when I have the time I will post others,

Thanks for the examples. But what you've demonstrated can also be demonstrated from the other perspectives as well. i.e., examples can be found where the Edo and Yoruba lexicons are cognate and Igbo is different; and examples can also be found where the Igbo and Edo lexicons are cognate and the Yoruba is different.

At the end of the day, it is total cognacy counts that illustrate relatedness, not isolated examples of differences.

AlfaSeltzer:


A fool?

It’s Christmas. Go out there and enjoy yourself instead of hating on your sisters and brothers from t’other side of Niger River.

Probz:


It’s Christmas. Go out there and enjoy yourself instead of hating on your sisters and brothers from t’other side of Niger River.

Na you be sister and brother of skull miners. Ewu

Trapnews:

We are peaceful people, we have nothing in common with those terrorists calling our beloved country a Zoo but now want Presidency all of a sudden. We are more aligned to the North. Yeebos are enemies of Nigeria and we and Northerners are the patriots.

very ignorant.
Yoruba doesn't begin and end in Nigeria.
Yorùbáland extends up till Togo. Are Yoruba of Atapame or Sabe also patriots of Nigeria?

We are talking about history and anthropology, you are bringing nonsense about Nigerian politics

Alusiizizi:


Wrong. A few similar words cannot prove genetic connection, for example, many English words are Romantic in origin but the mechanics of the English language shows a Germanic heritage. Igbo language, mechanically is far more related to Ibibio than any other language in Nigeria, mechanically. What's more, by physical appearance they share more similarities than any other peoples in Nigeria. The seemingly shared words between Igbo/Yoruba is very likely borrowed from Edo(Benin Kingdom), which the Igbo have a long history of interaction with.

There isn't a single linguist who holds this submission.

Instead just as English is a Germanic language with romance influences.. Igbo is said to be a Volta-Niger language with Lower Cross influences

So Igbo borrowed their words for body parts, words for common animals, pronouns (all top indicators of shared linguistic heritage) from Edo?

Tomorrow now in another discussion, the same you will argue against Igbos borrowing anything

Osariemen12:



Don't mind them. They only claim us to get the number for their own political gains. We're wiser now. Jonathan's defeat in southwest and Obaseki's re-election bid exposed many things about their cunning nature. To be honest with you, everyone in Benin City today understands that it is better to have no political ally than to have them as one.

Before now, our votes have always aligned with them but I can't remember one project executed in Edo State by the Obasanjo administration despite our massive support. We've decided to stand alone or join forces with the old eastern region just like Delta State has done and has never regretted doing so.

We can trust the Igbo man better than them. Let them keep writing nonsense about Edo State because we rejected their evil party.

See garage boy.

We are talking about linguistics and anthropology of over 2000 years ago this one is talking about voting patterns of less than 20 years ago

It appears to me (after coming back here and reading some comments that I missed earlier) that the main reason many of our people reject the idea of proto-languages and sister languages is that they do not understand what it really means.

For some clarity, this information doesn't necessarily mean that the Igbo as a people and the Yoruba as a people were formerly one 'ethnic' community that later split, while maintaining genetic purity. That will be an oversimplification of the process of language spread. The only thing it really means it that the languages that both groups speak originated from one single linguistic community. Language relatedness does not necessarily mean that the people who speak these languages were more than marginally related.

The Angas people of Nigeria, the Oromo people of Ethiopia and the Berber people of Kabyle in Algeria all speak Afroasiatic languages. What it means is that the languages that all three groups speak descended from one common language called Proto-Afro-Asiatic. The Angas, Oromo and Berber Kabyle peoples are not necessarily one people that split in three. Racially/phenotypically, they look very different and the idea of them diverging from a common human stock within the timescale that Afro-Asiatic languages are believed to have existed is improbable. What the language relatedness means is that Proto-Asiatic developed in one area and then by different means spread to other areas where it was not formerly spoken, and assimilated communities that earlier spoke other languages. For example, there are people who believe the ancestors of the Hausa originally spoke a Nilo-Saharan language before being assimilated into the Afro-Asiatic family.

The same is most likely true for us who speak Volta-Niger languages (Yoruba, Edo, Igbo, Idoma, Nupe, Gbe etc). Archaeology and linguistics suggest that the people who first domesticated yam and therefore first adapted to a rainforest agricultural life thousands of years ago were proto-Volta-Niger speakers. Genetic studies suggest that the Guinea yam was first cultivated in the broad region from just east of Ghana to Western Nigeria. This broad region was where the proto-Volta-Niger homeland is suspected to have been.

Armed with superior agricultural technologies, they had an advantage over whoever may have preceded them in the forested areas of Southern Nigeria, and who were probably still hunter-gatherers. Additionally, in contrast to most other Niger-Congo communities who were matrilineal, the Volta-Niger people were patrilineal. Historically, patrineal societies have tended to have more assimilatory abilities than matrilineal societies. As their agricultural skills were acquired by other people, there was the tendency to also acquire their Volta-Niger language and culture as well. In this way (as well as by migration of people) proto-Volta-Niger spread to new areas and with the passage of time split into dialects which continued to diverge until they became distinct languages.

.

macof:


There isn't a single linguist who holds this submission.

Instead just as English is a Germanic language with romance influences.. Igbo is said to be a Volta-Niger language with Lower Cross influences

So Igbo borrowed their words for body parts, words for common animals, pronouns (all top indicators of shared linguistic heritage) from Edo?

Tomorrow now in another discussion, the same you will argue against Igbos borrowing anything

The mechanics are a much stronger indication of genetic heritage than a few loan words. Igbo and Ibibio share much more in common mechanically than other languages. The frequent use of conjoined consonants, words and mechanics. Apparent similarities between Igbo and Yoruboid languages are not only likely to be of Edoid influence but the influence is limited in the dialectical(Onitsha) level that trace a lineage to Benin. The rest of Igbo land do not speak Onitsha and our dialects are quite distinct.

Most people don't realize that "Igbo language" is actually an umbrella classification of hundreds of mostly mutually unintelligible dialects. The Onitsha dialect family(and the dialect that most non-Igbo people most recognized) is unique to the Onitsha area and not spoken anywhere else in Igbo land. Indeed Onitsha people usually consider themselves to be Benin people first.

Alusiizizi:


The mechanics are a much stronger indication of genetic heritage than a few loan words. Igbo and Ibibio share much more in common mechanically than other languages. The frequent use of conjoined consonants, words and mechanics. Apparent similarities between Igbo and Yoruboid languages are not only likely to be of Edoid influence but the influence is limited in the dialectical(Onitsha) level that trace a lineage to Benin. The rest of Igbo land do not speak Onitsha and our dialects are quite distinct.

Ekpeye, which is an Igboid language that scholars say has preserved some proto-Igboid archaisms do not have these "conjoined consonants".

Have you thought of the possibility that this feature might have passed from Lower Cross [ancestor of the Ibibio language] to Igbo after Ekpeye split from the proto-Igboid stock?

AjaanaOka:


Ekpeye, which is an Igboid language that scholars say has preserved some proto-Igboid archaisms do not have these "conjoined consonants".

Have you thought of the possibility that this feature might have passed from Lower Cross [ancestor of the Ibibio language] to Igbo after Ekpeye split from the proto-Igboid stock?

I did mention that Igbo is probably an umbrella classification for a large, mostly mutually unintelligible languages. Indeed oral tradition has many Igbo groups descending from a variety of unrelated stocks, for example Igbo of Onitsha, Ikwerre, Ekpenye(per your example) among many others. No account of Igbo heritage can begin without identifying a core Igbo stock, which scholars believe is the Nri-Awka-Orlu hegenomy.

macof:


See garage boy.

We are talking about linguistics and anthropology of over 2000 years ago this one is talking about voting patterns of less than 20 years ago

That's one of his supporters. They won't fail to call you names ones you disagree with them.


Come and win Edo with your linguistics and anthropology since they are the only two nouns you can use to massage your ego.

We're not fools; our votes have left the west slopes. Let's join our sister state - Delta - to try the eastern slopes. Say whatever you want but that's the spirit in my state today.

Remember to vote Obi for president.

Alusiizizi:


The mechanics are a much stronger indication of genetic heritage than a few loan words. Igbo and Ibibio share much more in common mechanically than other languages. The frequent use of conjoined consonants, words and mechanics. Apparent similarities between Igbo and Yoruboid languages are not only likely to be of Edoid influence but the influence is limited in the dialectical(Onitsha) level that trace a lineage to Benin. The rest of Igbo land do not speak Onitsha and our dialects are quite distinct.

Most people don't realize that "Igbo language" is actually an umbrella classification of hundreds of mostly mutually unintelligible dialects. The Onitsha dialect family(and the dialect that most non-Igbo people most recognized) is unique to the Onitsha area and not spoken anywhere else in Igbo land. Indeed Onitsha people usually consider themselves to be Benin people first.

I think i agree with most of what you've said but on this part ""Igbo language" is actually an umbrella classification of hundreds of mostly mutually unintelligible dialects." how can most of it be mutually unintelligible? ive listened to varying dialects and they dont seem too off from igbo izugbe.

Napata77:
Historians and anthropologists have long known that Igbo and Yoruba are just linguistic derivatives of an original shared super language. Other language groups in Nigeria and the West African sub-region may also be speaking derivatives of this ancient super language we once shared.

Nothing proves these connections more than the multiplicity of words and meanings shared by the two ethnic groups, Yoruba and Igbo.

It also proves that there was a time when these two groups were ONE, and that Igbos and Yorubas are brothers and sisters from deepest antiquity.


By Kelechi Wachuku

Linguist & Anthropologist


This isn’t a fully comprehensive list, but these include a fair number of words and other similarities. [1] The Igbo word comes first with the corresponding Yoruba word right after.

Here’s a list of many cognates and similar words:

Animals:

ikwiikwii (Igbo) = owl
owiwi (Yoruba) = owl
agu (Igbo) = leopard
ẹkun (Yoruba) = leopard
adịdị (Igbo) =young female fowl, hen
adie (Yoruba) =fowl, hen
ehi/efi (Igbo) = cow
efon (Yoruba) = buffalo
ewu = goat
ewúrẹ= goat
azụ = fish
eja = fish
enyi = elephant
erin = elephant

Other similar words that may be the result of borrowing (Animals):

toro toro = turkey
tolotolo = turkey

Body Parts/Words Relating to the Body:

ọnụ = mouth
ẹnu = mouth
ire = tongue
ede = tongue, especially in the sense of "language."
ntị = ear
eti = ear
agba=chin
agbọn=chin
ụbụrụ = brain
ọpọlọ = brain
aka = hand
ika = finger
ikiaka = elbow
ejika = elbow
imi = nose
imu = nose
isi = head
ori = head
ụkwụ = foot, leg
-kun in “orokun” = knee
ezé = tooth
eyin/ehin = tooth
afọ = stomach
ifun = intestines
ike = buttocks, anus
ikun = stomach
ọkpụkpụ = bone/skeleton
egungun = bone/skeleton
olu = neck
ọrun = neck
ọdụ = tail
iru = tail

Miscellaneous:

ri = eat
jẹ = eat
bịa = come
wa = come
ogo = height
iga = height
obi = heart, king
ọba = king
ume = breath, energy
imi = breath
also umi in central yoruba (same meaning)
okwu = speech, word, utterance
ohun = voice, utterance
uche= mind
ọkan = mind
úgwù = circumcision
egun = circumcision (seldom used)
ọría = disease
arun/aarun = disease
also related to yoruba aarẹ and arirẹ
ụra = sleep
orun = sleep
nso nso = menstruate
osuosu = menstruate
gba= shoot in igbo
gba = kick in yoruba (used in certain expressions)
ogwu = thorn
ẹgun = thorn
re = sell
ra = buy

Similar Words (likely due to borrowing):

iba=fever
iba=fever

Possible cognates:

ikiri ụkwụ = heel
igigirisẹ = heel
akụ́ = arrow (1 of 2 possible words for “arrow”).
ọkọ = spear

Numbers:

atọ = three
ẹta/(m)ẹta = three
anọ = four
ẹrin/(m)ẹrin = four
Many Igbo words, especially numbers, are prefixed by a “ke-” or sometimes “nke” when they become adjectives. A similar process is seen in Yoruba numbers.
nke atọ, keanọ, keise, nke isii, keọkara = 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, half in Igbo
kẹta/ikẹta, kẹrin/ikẹrin, karun/ikarun, kẹfa/ikẹfa = 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th in Yoruba

Possible Cognates:

abụọ = two
(m)eji = two
Words with “-j-“ in Yoruba (IPA: -dʒ-) frequently evolved from -b-“ in Yoruba as a result of palatalization. So, words like “eje (blood)” were once “ebye.” Thus, “-ji” in “eji” may have at one point been something like “ebye” or “ebyi,” which would be more similar to “abụọ.”

Pronouns:

ọ or o= he/she/it (3rd person subject pronoun)
o or ó = he/she/it (3rd person subject pronoun)
oun/ọ or also un = he/she/it
m/mụ = I/me (1st person singular subject and object)
also mean "my" if put after, say, a noun.
aka m(ụ) = my hand
mo = I (1st person singular subject)
mi = me (1st person singular object)
also mean "my" if put after, say, a noun.
ika mi = my finger
emi = 1st person singular emphatic.
ha = they
(a)wọn = they
ụnụ = you (plural)
ẹyin = you (plural)
gini = what
ki(ni) = what
Land Features/Environment:

ala = land
ile = land in yoruba
okute/okwute = stone/rock
okuta = stone/rock
afufe = wind
ifufe = wind
oyi = cold
oyii = wind in Central Yoruba
osisi = tree/plant
ose = fruit

Similar Words (likely due to borrowing):

ọka = corn
ọkà = grain/wheat yoruba

Possible Cognates:

ji = yam
iṣu = yam
ụwa = earth in igbo
yoruba cognates (iwa, wiwa, hardly used except for in names, like Oluwa); (oni/olu = owner, “oluwa=owner of the earth”), oduduwa (great one who created the earth) (odu=great or mighty one→ god sent down from heaven in ile ife) (pg 148)[2]

Above: Oduduwa

ebe = place
ibi = place
ugwu = moutain/hill
oke = mountain
(m)miri = water
omi = water in Yoruba

Religious/Community Terms:

ute = mat
itẹ=throne in yoruba
ife = to worship, to wave, to adore
ife = love, desire, affection in yoruba
afa = divination, sorcery
ọfọ = mourning, sorcery
ifá = divination
ụlọ=house in igbo
ile/ule=house in yoruba
ilu = city in yoruba
ụlọ mmụọ/ụlọ nsọ = shrine
ileumole/ileorisha = shrine
mmụọ = spirit
ụmọle = another word for any generic god in Central Yoruba
ẹmi also means spirit, life, soul in yoruba
ọlịsa = God in some Igbo dialects
also alụshị/alụsị = minor god in standard Igbo
orisha = god in yoruba
uru = gain, profit
ere = gain, profit
efu = free (adverb)
ofo = free, as in “ṣ’ofo” (yoruba)
osi/isi/esi = cook in igbo
ase = cook in yoruba
apo=bag in yoruba
akpa=bag in igbo

Possible Cognates:

ígwè = iron
ogun = Yoruba god of iron
(eke)le = greeting
(iki)ni = greeting

Family/Interpersonal Words:

ụmụ = children
ọmọ = child
nwa=child
ewe=child, youth in certain dialects
oyi = companion, friend, lover
aayo = favorite, preferable, beloved person, favorite person, favorite wife
ọká=expert or distinguished indivual (oka mgba=wrestler)
ọgá = boss
ọgbọ = age-mate
ẹgbẹ = age-mate
“emeka bu ogbo m(ụ)” (Igbo) = Emeka’s my agemate
“egbe mi ni emeka” or “emeka jẹ egbe mi” (Yoruba)= Emeka’s my age-mate

Note: egbe is now commonly used for group, association, or guild, and in igbo, ọgbọ can mean generation.

oru/ohu = job, labor, duty, employment, slave
ẹru = slave
oke = man, male, masculine
akọ= man, male, masculine
onye = one who, who, person
eniyan = person, human
also ẹni/ọni/ ọniyan in Central Yoruba
ọni can mean “one who” in yoruba, as in “oniwaasu” (preacher/one who preaches)
nwuye = wife
-aya/iyawo = wife
nwanyị = woman, female person, wife
-aya/iyawo = wife
iko = adultery
ọkọ=husband
nta = marksmanship/hunting
ụta = bow in igbo
ọta = marksman, shooter
ịyaa = mother, aunt, term of deference for an elder cousin who was one’s nanny
iya = mother, term of deference for an elderly woman
agha = war
ogun = war
ebo = clan, kindred, lineage, tribe
ẹbi = family

https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-similar-words-in-the-Igbo-and-Yoruba-Languages

Kudos. But you need to do further research.For instance, eru is actually ẹnu in Yoruba language across board.

Bọ̀/bọ̀a/bọ̀wá is contracted to wá .

oni/oli (the person) is Yorùba while wasú/wasi is loaned from arabic word.

Yorùba language transcend ibo or igbo eastern group relationship alone because evenCoptic language is closer than with Ibos. There are words found among semitic.

Bọ̀ is Yorùba
Bo is the accurate word for come in ancient Hebrew . While bia is ibo or igbo of eastern Nigeria. All these words are cognate but two are more closer than the three.

Maazieze:


I think i agree with most of what you've said but on this part ""Igbo language" is actually an umbrella classification of hundreds of mostly mutually unintelligible dialects." how can most of it be mutually unintelligible? ive listened to varying dialects and they dont seem too off from igbo izugbe.

Un-intelligible needs to be taken in context, for example, most Nigerians understand English, which means that English is intelligible to most Nigerians as a second tongue, but this does not in any way point to a genetic relation between Nigerians and English. In linguistics intelligibility is an indication of dialectical closeness, how much of one dialect can be understood/derived by an unexposed speaker of a different dialect, and this would be a strong indication of genetic closeness. It is in this sense that many/most of the Igbo dialects are mutually unintelligible.

Alusiizizi:


Un-intelligible needs to be taken in context, for example, most Nigerians understand English, which means that English is intelligible to most Nigerians as a second tongue, but this does not in any way point to a genetic relation between Nigerians and English. In linguistics intelligibility is an indication of dialectical closeness, how much of one dialect can be understood/derived by an unexposed speaker of a different dialect, and this would be a strong indication of genetic closeness. It is in this sense that many/most of the Igbo dialects are mutually unintelligible.

I see, thx for clearing things up. is igbo's mutual un-intelligibility a unique feature or a common trope of languages and their dialects? if its the latter, is it merely the mechanics of igbo that unite the various igbo dialects

Alusiizizi:


The mechanics are a much stronger indication of genetic heritage than a few loan words. Igbo and Ibibio share much more in common mechanically than other languages. The frequent use of conjoined consonants, words and mechanics. Apparent similarities between Igbo and Yoruboid languages are not only likely to be of Edoid influence but the influence is limited in the dialectical(Onitsha) level that trace a lineage to Benin. The rest of Igbo land do not speak Onitsha and our dialects are quite distinct.

Most people don't realize that "Igbo language" is actually an umbrella classification of hundreds of mostly mutually unintelligible dialects. The Onitsha dialect family(and the dialect that most non-Igbo people most recognized) is unique to the Onitsha area and not spoken anywhere else in Igbo land. Indeed Onitsha people usually consider themselves to be Benin people first.

Another false submission. There is in fact more noticeable similarities between the Southern igbo dialects such as Ekpeye, Ogba than Onitcha with Yoruba dialects

What do you mean by conjoined consonants? I hope you are aren't referring to alphabets like Gh, Gw, Gb Bh, Kh
Because these are single consonant sounds of their own only represented in written form by two consonants

I'm sure the igbo historians on this thread would vehemently disagree with you that onitcha usually consider themselves Bini

Maazieze:

I see, thx for clearing things up. is igbo's mutual un-intelligibility a unique feature or a common trope of languages and their dialects? if its the latter, is it merely the mechanics of igbo that unite the various igbo dialects

At least in Nigeria this trait seems to be unique, that's most of the reason why "standard Igbo" never took hold in Igbo land. As one example of this contrast, consider Yoruba. If you understand Lagos dialect then you more or less understand most of the dialects spoken in Yoruba-land, the distance in dialect is very small in these regions. Same thing goes for most other parts of Nigeria.

macof:


Another false submission. There is in fact more noticeable similarities between the Southern igbo dialects such as Ekpeye, Ogba than Onitcha with Yoruba dialects

What do you mean by conjoined consonants? I hope you are aren't referring to alphabets like Gh, Gw, Gb Bh, Kh
Because these are single consonant sounds of their own only represented in written form by two consonants

I'm sure the igbo historians on this thread would vehemently disagree with you that onitcha usually consider themselves Bini

Gh, Gw, Gb Bh, Kh is common in most sub-saharan languages. Igbo and Ibibio employ significantly more, like Nk, Nw, Nkw, Ikw just to name some very limited few.

As for the Onitsha considering themselves more Bini than Igbo, I think you had better get your answer directly from the horses mouth and ask Onitsha people themselves rather than some unselected Igbo historian. Better yet, as an Onitsha historian.

Alusiizizi:


Gh, Gw, Gb Bh, Kh is common in most sub-saharan languages. Igbo and Ibibio employ significantly more, like Nk, Nw, Nkw, Ikw just to name some very limited few.

As for the Onitsha considering themselves more Bini than Igbo, I think you had better get your answer directly from the horses mouth and ask Onitsha people themselves rather than some unselected Igbo historian. Better yet, as an Onitsha historian.

A few Ekpeye words and their cognates in "Central" Igbo.

1. Dog.
Ekpeye: akita
C. Igbo: nkita

2. Ear.
Ekpeye: ete
C. Igbo: nti

3. Soap
Ekpeye: ịcha
C. Igbo: ncha

4. He-goat
Ekpeye: ikpi
C. Igbo: mkpi

5. Shout
Ekpeye: ikpu
C. Igbo: mkpu

6. Mother
Ekpeye: ine
C. Igbo: nne

7. Spoon
Ekpeye: igaji
C. Igbo: ngaji

8. Faeces
Ekpeye: ishi
C. Igbo: nshi

9. Shade
Ekpeye: udo
C. Igbo: ndo

10. Nail
Ekpeye: ubo
C. Igbo: mbo

11. Raffia wine
Ekpeye: bhugo
C. Igbo: ngwo

12. Grasscutter
Ekpeye: buchi
C. Igbo: nchi

13. Sharp
Ekpeye: bụkọ
C. Igbo: nkọ

14. Life
Ekpeye: budụ
C. Igbo: ndụ

All the Ekpeye examples here are clearly just variants of the Central Igbo examples. They are not "different" words, i.e., they are not non-cognates. But you see how none of them has the "conjoined consonants" structure of their Central Igbo related lexicons.

If you get a word list of Ekpeye words you will not find a single word there that has an nC or mC structure (where C is a second consonant). You will see words that you will recognise as an Igbo speaker, but all of them will avoid an nC/mC situation by using a vowel or a 'bu-' instead of the n/m.

Now given that Ekpeye is said to have preserved some archaisms that have been lost in the rest of the Igboid lects, who is to say that Proto-Igbo may not have lacked these "conjoined consonants" as you call them, and only picked them up at a letter date (after the cleaving off of Ekpeye from the Proto-Igbo stock) from Lower Cross languages?

AjaanaOka:


A few Ekpeye words and their cognates in "Central" Igbo.

1. Dog.
Ekpeye: akita
C. Igbo: nkita

2. Ear.
Ekpeye: ete
C. Igbo: nti

3. Soap
Ekpeye: ịcha
C. Igbo: ncha

4. He-goat
Ekpeye: ikpi
C. Igbo: mkpi

5. Shout
Ekpeye: ikpu
C. Igbo: mkpu

6. Mother
Ekpeye: ine
C. Igbo: nne

7. Spoon
Ekpeye: igaji
C. Igbo: ngaji

8. Faeces
Ekpeye: ishi
C. Igbo: nshi

9. Shade
Ekpeye: udo
C. Igbo: ndo

10. Nail
Ekpeye: ubo
C. Igbo: mbo

11. Raffia wine
Ekpeye: bhugo
C. Igbo: ngwo

12. Grasscutter
Ekpeye: buchi
C. Igbo: nchi

13. Sharp
Ekpeye: bụkọ
C. Igbo: nkọ

14. Life
Ekpeye: budụ
C. Igbo: ndụ

All the Ekpeye examples here are clearly just variants of the Central Igbo examples. They are not "different" words, i.e., they are not non-cognates. But you see how none of them has the "conjoined consonants" structure of their Central Igbo related lexicons.

If you get a word list of Ekpeye words you will not find a single word there that has an nC or mC structure (where C is a second consonant). You will see words that you will recognise as an Igbo speaker, but all of them will avoid an nC/mC situation by using a vowel or a 'bu-' instead of the n/m.

Now given that Ekpeye is said to have preserved some archaisms that have been lost in the rest of the Igboid lects, who is to say that Proto-Igbo may not have lacked these "conjoined consonants" as you call them, and only picked them up at a letter date (after the cleaving off of Ekpeye from the Proto-Igbo stock) from Lower Cross languages?

Presuming that proto-Igbo may have lacked these "conjoined consonants" is a huge stretch, considering that this pattern permeates virtually all of Igbo as a language and can really only be explained by a very large Lower Cross component in Igbo, large enough to distinguish Igbo as a language, especially when one considers that this conspicuous lower frequency of "conjoined consonants"(linguists can feel free to help out here on the academic term for this "conjoined consonants" language pattern) is shared with peoples mostly west of the Niger, which by Ekpeye oral tradition are said to descend from.

Still on the matter though, I have a toy theory regarding the origin of the Igbo, both language and people. I think that what may have haopened(probably between 100AD~500AD) was something akin to rebellion of some sort in the Benin Kingdom, probably against the then all powerful Oba of the kingdom. This rebellion was probably large enough to displace large populations of people from the Edo Region and into the present day Igbo land, which at the time would have been populated by people that were closely related to Lower Cross people. Over time, these rebels would have inter-mingled, married into each others population thereby developing into the Igbo people of today with their typical culture and their language evolving to bear the noted strong Lower Cross influence. This rebellion in Bini(or series of rebellions as the case may be) would have induced a first wave of migrations to seed the emergence of the core Igbo people. Subsequent, later waves of migrations(perhaps by non-traumatic migration or otherwise and not necessarily from Bini) probably seeded later Igbo populations like the Onitsha or even the Ekpenye.

Here I justify my assumptions:

The first clue is the Igbo language itself. It contains many words that share undeniable similarities with Yoruboid based languages and the neigbhoring Edo is the easiest place that could have been the origin of this characteristic. At the same time we have a strong Lower Cross component in Igbo language, not to talk of the fact that Ibibio land is virtually a stone-throw away from Igbo-land as well as the fact that physically both people resemble each other. So it is reasonable to assume that present day Igbo land was probably strongly populated by an Ibibiod speaking peoples, but the only way to make such large linguistic changes in an extended area and population is large migration in a relatively short period of time(less than 2 generations). At this time the only known power that could have effected such large migration lived in the Benin Kingdom and revolt would present a perfect explanation for a number of reasons.

First, the notorious Igbo republicanism, which is unusual as a governing pattern anywhere in Africa is a typical pattern of recently liberated peoples(think for example how the United States came to be after emancipation from the more powerful English empire and the republican state that they created, or after having disposing themselves of their king, the republican society that ancient Romans built)

Second, the equally notorious rebelliousness of the Igbo people would be just what is expected from a people that arrived at their state by rebellion.

Additionally, regarding the timing of this story, 100AD~500AD, should really be regarded as an educated guess at best. My rationale here is the following: The first Eze Nri was recorded at sometime in the 11th century, and if you know anything about Igbo culture then you should be aware that it is impossible to discuss Igbo culture and Igbo people without a good discourse on Nri kingdom and their influence all over Igbo land, so now that we have an approximate reference point, which is the naming of the first Eze Nri which was supposedly in the 11th century AD all we now need is an established Igbo people to name their Eze and in my thoughts 500 years seems to be more than enough time for a rebel population to inter-mingle and develop a unique culture just in time to name the first Eze-Nri in the 11th century AD.

Although, admittedly these points/reason seem anecdotal I believe it prudent to at least consider the possibility that a story like this played out, leading to the birth of the Igbos, considering that other alternative theories don't present much in terms of evidence or facts.

Alusiizizi:


Presuming that proto-Igbo may have lacked these "conjoined consonants" is a huge stretch, considering that this pattern permeates virtually all of Igbo as a language and can really only be explained by a very large Lower Cross component in Igbo, large enough to distinguish Igbo as a language, especially when one considers that this conspicuous lower frequency of "conjoined consonants"(linguists can feel free to help out here on the academic term for this "conjoined consonants" language pattern) is shared with peoples mostly west of the Niger, which by Ekpeye oral tradition are said to descend from.

Still on the matter though, I have a toy theory regarding the origin of the Igbo, both language and people. I think that what may have haopened(probably between 100AD~500AD) was something akin to rebellion of some sort in the Benin Kingdom, probably against the then all powerful Oba of the kingdom. This rebellion was probably large enough to displace large populations of people from the Edo Region and into the present day Igbo land, which at the time would have been populated by people that were closely related to Lower Cross people. Over time, these rebels would have inter-mingled, married into each others population thereby developing into the Igbo people of today with their typical culture and their language evolving to bear the noted strong Lower Cross influence. This rebellion in Bini(or series of rebellions as the case may be) would have induced a first wave of migrations to seed the emergence of the core Igbo people. Subsequent, later waves of migrations(perhaps by non-traumatic migration or otherwise and not necessarily from Bini) probably seeded later Igbo populations like the Onitsha or even the Ekpenye.

Here I justify my assumptions:

The first clue is the Igbo language itself. It contains many words that share undeniable similarities with Yoruboid based languages and the neigbhoring Edo is the easiest place that could have been the origin of this characteristic. At the same time we have a strong Lower Cross component in Igbo language, not to talk of the fact that Ibibio land is virtually a stone-throw away from Igbo-land as well as the fact that physically both people resemble each other. So it is reasonable to assume that present day Igbo land was probably strongly populated by an Ibibiod speaking peoples, but the only way to make such large linguistic changes in an extended area and population is large migration in a relatively short period of time(less than 2 generations). At this time the only known power that could have effected such large migration lived in the Benin Kingdom and revolt would present a perfect explanation for a number of reasons.

First, the notorious Igbo republicanism, which is unusual as a governing pattern anywhere in Africa is a typical pattern of recently liberated peoples(think for example how the United States came to be after emancipation from the more powerful English empire and the republican state that they created, or after having disposing themselves of their king, the republican society that ancient Romans built)

Second, the equally notorious rebelliousness of the Igbo people would be just what is expected from a people that arrived at their state by rebellion.

Additionally, regarding the timing of this story, 100AD~500AD, should really be regarded as an educated guess at best. My rationale here is the following: The first Eze Nri was recorded at sometime in the 11th century, and if you know anything about Igbo culture then you should be aware that it is impossible to discuss Igbo culture and Igbo people without a good discourse on Nri kingdom and their influence all over Igbo land, so now that we have an approximate reference point, which is the naming of the first Eze Nri which was supposedly in the 11th century AD all we now need is an established Igbo people to name their Eze and in my thoughts 500 years seems to be more than enough time for a rebel population to inter-mingle and develop a unique culture just in time to name the first Eze-Nri in the 11th century AD.

Although, admittedly these points/reason seem anecdotal I believe it prudent to at least consider the possibility that a story like this played out, leading to the birth of the Igbos, considering that other alternative theories don't present much in terms of evidence or facts.

I do not disagree very much on the influence of Lower Cross on proto-Igbo. I feel that it is almost certain that Igbo contains a Lower Cross substratum. I have written and spoken about this a couple of times. I have even mentioned it on this thread.

On everything else, we disagree. The dates you give (100AD to 500AD) are way too recent for the entry of proto-Igbo to the area where modern Igbo dialects are spoken. You seem to want to link these movements to events in remembered oral traditions and history. Oral traditions cannot help us at all with this subject, because we are dealing here with events of deep-time history, beyond the scope of oral traditions. Only archaeology and historical linguistics can help.

AjaanaOka:


I do not disagree very much on the influence of Lower Cross on proto-Igbo. I feel that it is almost certain that Igbo contains a Lower Cross substratum. I have written and spoken about this a couple of times. I have even mentioned it on this thread.

On everything else, we disagree. The dates you give (100AD to 500AD) are way too recent for the entry of proto-Igbo to the area where modern Igbo dialects are spoken. You seem to want to link these movements to events in remembered oral traditions and history. Oral traditions cannot help us at all with this subject, because we are dealing here with events of deep-time history, beyond the scope of oral traditions. Only archaeology and historical linguistics can help.

Not sure about this. First off, oral tradition/history should never be used in isolation, agreed, but at the same time their useful information content should not just be discarded without review, they could point to clues on where to look and even the oration itself, if proven to be flawed still often yield new information about a people in unexpected ways.

At least we agree on the Lower Cross content of Igbo language, the only question is "how much"?

Regarding this theory of mine, note that it's but a theory of the evolution of the Igbo people competing, flawed? Probably so, but consider that alternative explanations don't have much basis in fact, archaeology and evidence. As for the dates that I gave, note that the margin of error that I conjured up is very wide(Indeed I considered making it even wider) but we leave it at that for now and regarding your objection that my time-frame does not allow for the entry of proto-Igbo we can argue with an example which we know of because there's written historical records. English, for example, took less than 300 years to evolve from German to Anglo-Saxon. Now I know that this example falls short of the originality that you demand, where a prototype Igbo language is being sought, but one cannot help but ask why? Why would the time frame be too recent for a hypothetical proto-Igbo language to evolve into the modern Igboid form.