₦airaland Forum

NNTR:
We human beings are not all-knowing and all-seeing like God is,

I have just shown you an example and a case where you were all knowing.

NNTR:
so to circumvent that handicap, we aiming to be being responsible, put hypo/sniper, hot pots on gas cookers knives and electrical stuffs like hot iron in our homes well out of children's hands to reach to and make sure that electrical sockets et cetera are barricaded off

Inspite of that our children have tried plucking our ceiling fans, eating soaps and drinking kerosene to their deaths. And you were aware that all these could happen.

So, judge yourself, are you irresponsible and stupid for having all these things in your house?

Dtruthspeaker:
I have just shown you an example and a case where you were all knowing

so to circumvent that handicap, we aiming to be being responsible, put hypo/sniper, hot pots on gas cookers knives and electrical stuffs like hot iron in our homes well out of children's hands to reach to and make sure that electrical sockets et cetera are barricaded off

You mistake, what is pure and adulterated guesswork for omniscience and equate it to mean know-all, see-all

Dtruthspeaker:
Inspite of that our children have tried plucking our ceiling fans, eating soaps and drinking kerosene to their deaths. And you were aware that all these could happen.

So, judge yourself, are you irresponsible and stupid for having all these things in your house?

I'll repeat here so you'll notice.
Adam was not a child.
Adam was capable of doing the right thing.
Adam was not deceived.
Adam betrayed the trust placed in him

Dtruthspeaker:
1. Being that God was aware of before it happened (i.e. foreknew), that Adam would disobey His expressed command not eat from the Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil, do you then, think it was not only a stupid God idea but also is, irresponsible of God to have exposed, a not a child, Adam, to the danger of an unprotected from dangerous Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil?

I dont see your answer to this question

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

NNTR:
You mistake, what is pure and adulterated guesswork for omniscience and equate it to mean know-all, see-all.

We all know what all knowing is and knowing a thing is not "guessing" a thing.

Dtruthspeaker:
We all know what all knowing is and knowing a thing is not "guessing" a thing.

What you, gave as an example and the case, where you claimed, was about all knowing, isnt at all anything about all knowing, it is about calculating a possibility of children passing their boundaries. Its suspecting children might cross their boundaries, and so putting things in place to counteract any an eventuality

You are drawing similarities between two things that are not similar. God's abilities and human being's abilities are not in the same category

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

NNTR:
What you, gave as an example and the case, where you claimed, was about all knowing, isnt at all anything about all knowing, it is about calculating a possibility of children passing their boundaries. Its suspecting children might cross their boundaries, and so putting things in place to counteract any an eventuality...

All knowingness involves everything between point A to point Z in a transaction, which definitely takes in all the possibilities and doables in the transaction.

Thus, you put your ceiling fans, electric sockets, soaps and petrol knowing what would happen to your children.

Alexandersantos:
God didn't create human to fall into sin...God created us to live on earth for eternity but due to their disobidence they sinned against God and by that loosing the chance to live for evenity...

The best way humans could have lived for eternity on earth, was for the devil and his agents to have been cast into the lake fire before man was
even created.

Dtruthspeaker:
All knowingness involves everything between point A to point Z in a transaction, which definitely takes in all the possibilities and doables in the transaction.

Thus, you put your ceiling fans, electric sockets, soaps and petrol knowing what would happen to your children.

1. According to your understanding, does God do guess?
2. Does God know exactly what, you'll type in 10 minutes time?
3. Does God know what time tonight you'll fall asleep?

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

mysticwarrior:
The best way humans could have lived for eternity on earth, was for the devil and his agents to have been cast into the lake fire before man was even created.

Genesis 3:22-24
22And the LORD God said,
“Behold, the man has become like one of Us (Father, Son, Holy Spirit),
knowing [how to distinguish between] good and evil;
and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take from the tree of life as well,
and eat [its fruit], and live [in this fallen, sinful condition] forever”—
23therefore the LORD God sent Adam away from the Garden of Eden,
to till and cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
24So God drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden
He [permanently] stationed the cherubim
and the sword with the flashing blade which turned round and round [in every direction]
to protect and guard the way (entrance, access) to the tree of life.

The best way, to prove the legitimacy and even check the validity of human beings living for eternity on earth is to have the first man, the template, as it were, the prototype, go through the mills.

mysticwarrior, the point, actually here, is about, the gift of freewill. Freewill, sets human beings apart from other creatures, such as animals, the devil and his agents, the demons, fallen celestial beings.

Animals act upon impulses, instincts et cetera, but human beings are designed in the image of God and according to the likeness of the Godhead

mysticwarrior, what is the point of having freewill, if it will not be tried, tested or even exercised?

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

ichuka:
Version
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. Isaiah46;10
Yes,God knows how His creation will end even before He started creation.
He knew Adam would sin from the beginning .
He even purposely gave the children of Israel His laws through Moses for them to break it.

but why?

Kobojunkie:
How can it be said that God created man with the intention to fall into sin from the beginning when the first passage you highlighted stated that God warned man of the consequences of sin— disobedience of God's direct commandment? God created man with the ability to sin and not to sin. Man chose to sin, so why is God at fault?

please I'm not saying God is at fault.
wrong use of word 'intention', so sorry.
let me rephrase it.
based on the italicize. God must have known man will fail, yet He went ahead to create Man and allowed all that happened to happen, why?

MaxInDHouse:
He never claimed omnipotence in His word the Bible because it's impossible for Him to do what is not right! Titus 1:2

omniscience was the word I was looking for, sorry.

by saying God was not aware, don't you think it contradicts God's omniscience nature.

God is all knowing.

One Bible verse that highlights God's omniscient nature is Psalm 139:1-4 (NIV):

"O Lord, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord."

ichuka:
No need for insult dude.
Adam was a shadow of who is to come.
For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.Collosians2:17.
If the Israelis didn't break the break the law,Salvation will never be accepted.
Heb10:1

so Man was created to fall, just so He could be offered salvation?

I am confused sir.

schoolboymatt:
■ [/i]please I'm not saying God is at fault.
wrong use of word 'intention', so sorry.
let me rephrase it.
based on the italicize. God must have known man will fail, yet He went ahead to create Man and allowed all that happened to happen, why?

Because Adam's choice was that, Adam's choice. God's plan goes on regardless.

NNTR:
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ [that is, grafted in, joined to Him by faith in Him as Savior],
he is a new creature [reborn and renewed by the Holy Spirit];
the old things [the previous moral and spiritual condition] have passed away.
Behold, new things have come [because spiritual awakening brings a new life].

Isaiah 65:17
Take notice!
I'm about to create new heavens and a new earth;
the former things won't be remembered, nor will they come to mind.

Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth;
for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away (vanished),
and there is no longer any sea.

2 Peter 3:13
And we wait for new heavens and a new earth
according to His promise, in which righteousness dwells;

As seen, confirmed in 2 Corinthians 5:17 et cetera verses right up to 2 Peter 3:13 above, creation, will continue up to and after the trumpet sound.

As for that 'It is finished' statement, it is one of the last seven words, spoken by Jesus, while hung on the cross dying. In fact, 'It is finished' was the 6th spoken words He uttered while on the cross dying, and what He was communicating, by saying 'It is finished' is a powerful message, that, the plan of the gift of salvation, the plan of the gift of redemption, the plan of the gift of reconciliation with God, and the plan for the atonement of sin have successfully being executed. Mission, essentially, had been accomplished, and so, was safe, for the God incarnate, to say 'It is finished'

The whole plan of actions were performed accurately and diligently. The master plan, executed with finesse, efficiency, capability and competence enough to warrant and justify, saying with a ring and sound of finality to it, the confident words 'It is finished' .

Notice what Christ's 7th dying last words were, after, He had said, the 'It is finished' 6th dying last words. The followed 7th dying last words were '“Father, into your hands I commit My spirit!”'

Yes, after Jesus, had said '“Father, into your hands I commit My spirit!”', He breathed His last, relinquished the ruach, otherwise known as, the lifeforce, even also known as, the breath of God, effectively exhaled, then died, by giving up the ghost.

There's no point hanging about or hanging around more than its necessary, not when deed is done and dusted. The price and debt of sin, owed by man to his Creator, God, on account of the sin committed by Adam, had at that point, been wholly paid for. The cost, finally and forever dealt with.

One man' s act of obedience had cancelled out, another man's act of disobedience (i.e. Romans 5:19)

Yes, God, Himself, with Philippians 2:5-9, did a DIY act (i.e. did a do-it-yourself)

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

Interesting

Kobojunkie:
Because Adam's choice was that, Adam's choice. God's plan goes on regardless.

So God knew Adam would fail, and Jesus(Salvation) was God's plan from the beginning?

schoolboymatt:
please I'm not saying God is at fault.
wrong use of word 'intention', so sorry.

When discussing such omnipotent being, as God, of course, such being, cant be at fault, and doesnt have faults

schoolboymatt:
let me rephrase it.
based on the italicize. God must have known man will fail, yet He went ahead to create Man and allowed all that happened to happen, why

If discussing an omniscient, all-knowing, all-seeing, all-wise being, it is an understatement to say, 'God must have known man will fail', because it conflicts with the ideology that God knows the end of a matter right from the beginning of the matter

There are inexhaustible reasons for why God went ahead to create man, knowing fully well that man will disobey Him, and go into a spiral of degradation, loss of pride, diminished self worth et cetera.

Some of the reasons are:
1. It is how the proverbial, separate the men from the boys operates
2. Confidence in one's abilities to have everything under control and power to fix things so they dont run out of control
3. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, meaning Adam for the benefit of all, needed to be seen test run
4. It will be unfair and unjust to say Adam has the gift of freewill, and not have the so call freewill be tested, tested by giving him, alternatives (i.e. choices)
5. Having a contingency plan or equally having a back-up plan helps
6. Being omnipotent and omniscient certainly is handy

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

Kobojunkie:
Because Adam's choice was that, Adam's choice. God's plan goes on regardless.

schoolboymatt:
So God knew Adam would fail, and Jesus (Salvation) was God's plan from the beginning?

Spot on. Nothing goes past God, unnoticed or unknown

The name Jesus, in Hebrew, literally means, God Saves or better still, God gives Salvation (i.e. Yah Saves)

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

so, God created Man in His image (to live forever).
God gave Man freewill.
To excersise that freewill, God allowed Satan to tempt Man.
Man disappoints God by falling.
Because of God's love for man, He already had a backup plan in place should incase man falls (Jesus).
And Now because of Jesus, Man can live forever as God had Originally planned it.


makes a whole lot of sense now.

Thank you Jesus!

schoolboymatt:
So God knew Adam would fail, and Jesus(Salvation) was God's plan from the beginning?

Yes! Jesus Christ was God's plan from before th beginning. So, Adam's fall was already factored into God's plan.

schoolboymatt:
■ so, God created Man in His image (to live forever). God gave Man freewill.
■ To excersise that freewill, God allowed Satan to tempt Man. Man disappoints God by falling. Because of God's love for man, He already had a backup plan in place should incase man falls (Jesus).
■ And Now because of Jesus, Man can live forever as God had Originally planned it. makes a whole lot of sense now. Thank you Jesus!

Man was created from the physical elements of this earth; He did not have eternal life and so could not live forever as is. He had to have Jesus Christ — the Life and the Truth(the knowledge of Good and Evil) — for eternity to happen to a man. But Adam missed that chance and was kicked out of the Garden as a result of his choice against God's plan - Genesis 3 vs 19 - 24

2. According to the story, it was a serpent that tempted man, not Satan. Now, man's free will was a choice of either to to obey or not to obey.

3. Jesus Christ was always the plan from the beginning. Recall He reminded up in John 14 vs 6 that He is the Life and the Truth, the same one Adam chose to forego in the beginning.

schoolboymatt:
God gave Man freewill.
To excersise that freewill, God allowed Satan to tempt Man.
Man disappoints God by falling

Man disappointed himself by falling from grace to grass. God was not disappointed

schoolboymatt:
Because of God's love for man, He already had a backup plan in place should in case man falls (Jesus).
And Now because of Jesus, Man can live forever as God had Originally planned it.

makes a whole lot of sense now.

Thank you Jesus!

John 15:13
No one has greater love [nor stronger commitment] than to lay down his own life for his friends.

John 10:11
I am the Good Shepherd.
The Good Shepherd lays down His [own] life for the sheep.

God is that organised, that He already had plans in place to execute, the moment Adam, as foresaw by Him will derail from openly disregarding His command

The thing is, any idea of living in sin perpetually, isnt part of a God deal. The idea is that, at the appropriate passage of time, sin, tears, sorrow, sweat, misery, weeping, sickness, adversity, affliction, despair, death et cetera would be no more

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

Yes God knew Adam and eve would fall but however it is as a result of their choices. God gave man ability to make choices and he would not hamper that ability even if it is evil but rather man would be held accountable.

God gave man free will so that man could fellowship with him. Free will means that we can choose to follow God or reject him, God desires those who would worship him in truth and in spirit.

However, God put things in place to enable man make the right choice eg by giving Him his laws.

God knows that man would fall and he prepares salvation for man through christ sacrifice.

God ordained Jesus to be our salvation before creation started.

The real damnation lies in rejecting God's salvation because there is no other salvation plan apart from Jesus.


Take note in everything God does he did not change the ordinal design of giving man free will because that is what he desires but he provided means for us to be saved from our bad choices which is Jesus Christ and his finished work on the cross.

Alexandersantos:
God didn't create human to fall into sin...God created us to live on earth for eternity but due to their disobidence they sinned against God and by that loosing the chance to live for evenity...

You mean yahweh doesn't know the future?

MaxInDHouse:
NO!
God is not aware of such things that's what it means when He referred to Himself as "HOLY" this connotes PURITY in all aspects God doesn't think of EVIL at all but only GOOD that's why it's impossible for Him to think in that direction!

Isaiah 45:7 ►
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Aemmyjah:
Answer is NO
Remwmber that Angels too sinned by marrying wives and bearing hybrid offspring
Will you say that when God was creating the woman, Eve (which was to complement the man), he did that knowing that some angels would have an affair with some of the children?
Reason am

Are you saying Yahweh isn't omniscient?

Dtruthspeaker:
When will the foolish stop being foolish?

When your phone makers say to your phone "don't go into direct sunlight" does it mean that they made them to fall into sunlight?

"Failures love excuses and always seek it!"

The phone makers aren't omniscient. They are human. Yahweh is supposedly a god, and an omniscient one at that. So he knows his creation would sin and rebel, yet went ahead to create them

schoolboymatt:
omniscience was the word I was looking for, sorry. by saying God was not aware, don't you think it contradicts God's omniscience nature. God is all knowing.
One Bible verse that highlights God's omniscient nature is Psalm 139:1-4 (NIV):
"O Lord, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord."

The man you quoted is a faithful servant of God who have proved to be loyal right from his youth {2Chronicles 16:9} not all Dick and Harry.
From God's standpoint David is living {Luke 20:38} because he has a good record in God's memory book {Job 14:13-15} but as for faithless people God has no record for them {Psalms 9:17} that's why Jesus could refer to such ones as "DEAD" Luke 9:60

MaxInDHouse:
The title "ALMIGHTY" is what they don't know!

They assume that if God is Almighty for real then He should be able to foretell everything including the EVIL thoughts that could spring up from the minds of greedy and selfish creatures. Who will tell them that there's no reason why God whose thoughts are PURE can think of EVIL?
Abraham said about his friend {James 2:23} and God {Matthew 22:32}

"It is unthinkable that you would act in this manner by putting the righteous man to death with the wicked one so that the outcome for the righteous man and the wicked is the same! It is unthinkable of you. Will the Judge of all the earth not do what is right?” Genesis 18:25

God said about Himself:

"They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart" Jeremiah 7:31

No wonder this God so much love Abraham who knew that He is so PURE in thought to the extent He can't think of EVIL!

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

ichuka:
Version
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, ‘My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. Isaiah46;10
Yes,God knows how His creation will end even before He started creation.
He knew Adam would sin from the beginning .
He even purposely gave the children of Israel His laws through Moses for them to break it.

Whats more, he created the tree of knowledge right in the middle of the garden of eden so Adam would see it and sin. So yahweh aided and abetted the crime

TenQ:
Man was created with the knowing that he will fall into sin!
1. Man was given volition
2. Volition must be tested
3. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was the examination
4. Man wasted no time to fail the examination

Who created that tree of knowledge? Yahweh.
Did he know Adam would succumb to it? Yep.
Then why create it? <crickets>

jaephoenix:
Isaiah 45:7 ►
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Why not ask for the explanation?

Well you're an atheist so for the benefit of others who wants to know, God is telling His servants to be courageous because no matter the evil bad people scheme it's not beyond what He created so He has the power to undo it all.
Take for instance Nebuchadnezzar through God's servants into a burning furnace after heating it seven times only for the Creator of fire to change the gases and turn it to air-conditioner for Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego.
Again God's enemies threw Daniel into the lions den only for the Creator to turn lions into domestic pets for His faithful friend.

So He created the good and evil simply means He has the power to change what we know as evil (destructive) like fire to good (air-conditioner)

May you have PEACE!

NNTR:
1. When you said to ichuka 'Did you not know from the beginning that your child will drink hypo and die? Stupidity ki you there' did it occur to you that God must have very good reason for leaving the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil centrally placed in full view and plain sight, knowing fully well that without protection or a guard, if eaten off, will cause death?

2. Why do you think God did that? (i.e. leave the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil centrally placed in full view and plain sight, knowing fully well that without protection or a guard, will cause death, if eaten off)
3. Do you think it was a stupid and/or irresponsible act from God?

_{Personal text: Jesus is not a theologian. He is God who told stories.}

So why did yahweh do it, knowing already adam would fall?