₦airaland Forum

TenQ:
If Qur'an 17:4-8 is the direct words of Allah and not of Mohammed, it is A scary proof that the God of the Jews is NOT Allah.

If the God of the Jews is not Allah, then Muslims have been thoroughly Decieved by the entity called Allah.

Qur'an 17:8
It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

It is obvious from the verse above that if Allah is the "WE", he cannot also be the "YOUR"!

Is it not easier, clearer and better for Allah to say:
Qur'an 17:8
It may be that WE your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

The above is a Perfect revision by a mortal man isn't it!?

But this Qur'an 17:8 is obviously a Slip of Tongue from someone trying very hard to impersonate the God of Israel!

Questions :
1. Is it a problem to you if Allah is not the same as the God of the Jews referred to in verse 8?
2. Can you show any prophecy in the Scripture of the Jews (the Old Testament) where the God of Israel promised them that they would commit mischief Twice resulting in them been enslaved Twice?
3. From the Qur'an, are mushrikins also servants of Allah? In history, who were the two servants nations of Allah that punished the Jews?
4. Is it a slip of tongue that Allah used the phrase "Your Lord" rather than "Ourselves or We" as Allah is portrayed to speak?




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Qur'an 17:4-8
vs4 - And We decreed for the Children of Israel in the Scripture: Ye verily will work corruption in the earth twice, and ye will become great tyrants.
vs5 - When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our slaves (servants) given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.
vs6 - Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.
vs7 - If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.
vs8 - It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

Note:
1. The Enemies of Israel (vs7) are the slaves of Allah (vs 5)
2. The slaves of Allah are Muslims (vs 5)
3. Allah is not the Lord of the Jews (Children of Israel)

Well said my brother. . let me first be reading responses.

MightySparrow:
Well said my brother. . let me first be reading responses.

Keep reading MightySparrow or is it LookingSparrow. On a thread alrady 4 pages long you're still reading comments?

What are you reading for?

The majestic plural, also called the royal plural, is the use of a plural word (such as the pronoun we or us) to refer to a single person. As a type of nosism, the majestic plural emphasizes something or honors someone in a stylistic way. Basically, when a member of royalty, referring to himself, says, “We” instead of “I,” he is using the majestic plural. For example, Queen Victoria, upon hearing a tasteless joke, is said to have replied, “We are not amused.”

The ancient Hebrews used the majestic plural, and some examples are found in the Old Testament. But the construction is not unique to Hebrew. The Latin language also had what the Romans called pluralis maiestatis (“the plural of majesty”), and, as has been noted, English sometimes uses it as well. Other modern languages using the royal plural include Punjabi, Hindustani, Telugu, and Egyptian Arabic (in which the President of Egypt is referred to as “Your Excellencies”).

The effect of the majestic plural is to indicate greatness, power, and prestige. It is normally reserved for use by nobles, kings, popes, and other persons of high rank when speaking in an official capacity or by those of lower rank when speaking of or to their betters.

In the Bible, we find four verses in which God refers to Himself using plural pronouns. The most well-known passage is Genesis 1:26: “Then God said, ‘Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness.’” See also Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7; and Isaiah 6:8. The One God is speaking of Himself in plural form: us and our. This is a perfect example of the majestic plural. God’s divine greatness and transcendence are emphasized through the simple use of pronouns.

The majestic plural is also found in one of God’s most common names in the Old Testament, Elohim. The word itself is plural (the singular is Eloah), and it is sometimes translated as “gods” (when referring to a plurality of false gods). When it refers to the One True God, Elohim (plural) is correctly translated as “God” (singular).

Deuteronomy 4:35 says, “The LORD is God”—literally, “Yahweh is Elohim.” And the famous Shema says, “The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Again, we have the singular Lord coupled with the plural Elohim, and this time in a verse that is crystal clear that there is only one God. His name’s plural form indicates His sovereign supremacy, His matchless might, and His exceeding eminence.

We carefully note that the majestic plural in the Old Testament was not meant to teach the doctrine of the Trinity. It is simply a linguistic tool that God employed to accentuate His greatness. However, the use of plural constructions to refer to God leaves open the possibility of God’s triune nature. Later, when the doctrine of the Trinity is revealed in the New Testament, the use of the majestic plural fits right in.

Ohyoudidnt:
Is this your reply?

Is there anything that depreciates this Qur'an verse (modified)
Qur'an 17:8
It may be that WE your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

Is this not perfectly clear in message?
Allah has used "WE" and "YOUR" is there no difference both in English and in Arabic?




Joining your thread following another's earlier response, I made contributions to answers outside your subject which you definitely encourage and decide to dwell on because you are unable to stay focussed and get distracted?

Is the following too not your reply?

MightySparrow:
Well said my brother. . let me first be reading responses.

Ohyoudidnt:
The majestic plural, also called the royal plural, is the use of a plural word (such as the pronoun we or us) to refer to a single person. As a type of nosism, the majestic plural emphasizes something or honors someone in a stylistic way. Basically, when a member of royalty, referring to himself, says, “We” instead of “I,” he is using the majestic plural. For example, Queen Victoria, upon hearing a tasteless joke, is said to have replied, “We are not amused.”

The ancient Hebrews used the majestic plural, and some examples are found in the Old Testament. But the construction is not unique to Hebrew. The Latin language also had what the Romans called pluralis maiestatis (“the plural of majesty”), and, as has been noted, English sometimes uses it as well. Other modern languages using the royal plural include Punjabi, Hindustani, Telugu, and Egyptian Arabic (in which the President of Egypt is referred to as “Your Excellencies”).

The effect of the majestic plural is to indicate greatness, power, and prestige. It is normally reserved for use by nobles, kings, popes, and other persons of high rank when speaking in an official capacity or by those of lower rank when speaking of or to their betters.

In the Bible, we find four verses in which God refers to Himself using plural pronouns. The most well-known passage is Genesis 1:26: “Then God said, ‘Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness.’” See also Genesis 3:22; Genesis 11:7; and Isaiah 6:8. The One God is speaking of Himself in plural form: us and our. This is a perfect example of the majestic plural. God’s divine greatness and transcendence are emphasized through the simple use of pronouns.

The majestic plural is also found in one of God’s most common names in the Old Testament, Elohim. The word itself is plural (the singular is Eloah), and it is sometimes translated as “gods” (when referring to a plurality of false gods). When it refers to the One True God, Elohim (plural) is correctly translated as “God” (singular).

Deuteronomy 4:35 says, “The LORD is God”—literally, “Yahweh is Elohim.” And the famous Shema says, “The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Again, we have the singular Lord coupled with the plural Elohim, and this time in a verse that is crystal clear that there is only one God. His name’s plural form indicates His sovereign supremacy, His matchless might, and His exceeding eminence.

We carefully note that the majestic plural in the Old Testament was not meant to teach the doctrine of the Trinity. It is simply a linguistic tool that God employed to accentuate His greatness. However, the use of plural constructions to refer to God leaves open the possibility of God’s triune nature. Later, when the doctrine of the Trinity is revealed in the New Testament, the use of the majestic plural fits right in.

Your logic is correct. The issue of Trinity is much more than one verse or one author.
I would like to know if Arabic has such plural of Majesty. I am teaching myself a little Arabic with texts and YouTube. I am not that proficient.

Ohyoudidnt:
Keep reading MightySparrow or is it LookingSparrow. On a thread alrady 4 pages long you're still reading comments?

What are you reading for?

I have read two this morning. I have been quite busy lately..

MightySparrow:
Your logic is correct. The issue of Trinity is much more than one verse or one author.
I would like to know if Arabic has such plural of Majesty. I am teaching myself a little Arabic with texts and YouTube. I am not that proficient.

It's not my logic but this:

https://www.gotquestions.org/majestic-plural.html

The image is too small from previous post

Ohyoudidnt:
Is this your reply?

Is there anything that depreciates this Qur'an verse (modified)
Qur'an 17:8
It may be that WE your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

Is this not perfectly clear in message?
Allah has used "WE" and "YOUR" is there no difference both in English and in Arabic?




Joining your thread following another's earlier response, I made contributions to answers outside your subject which you definitely encourage and decide to dwell on because you are unable to stay focussed and get distracted?

Is the following too not your reply?

MightySparrow:
Your logic is correct. The issue of Trinity is much more than one verse or one author.
I would like to know if Arabic has such plural of Majesty. I am teaching myself a little Arabic with texts and YouTube. I am not that proficient.

The Plural of Majesty is what @Tenq seems to be asking though he claims it is not.

It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu, ‘We’, for respect or glorification. 2- He may also use the word ana, ‘I’, indicating one person, or the third person huwa, ‘He’. All three styles are used in the Quran, where Allah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue.

Verily, We have given you a manifest victory” [Al-Fath 48:1]

Surah Al-Mulk (67:1) - “Blessed is He in Whose Hand is dominion, and He over all things has power

The Day when the Trumpet will be sounded: that Day, We shall gather the sinful, blear-eyed (with terror). In whispers will they consult each other: ‘You tarried not longer than ten (days).

We know very well what they say, when the best of them in his ways will say, “You did not remain more than one day

It is We/us who have sent down the Remembrance

In the Quran, there are instances where Allah is referred to with the plural of majesty. This form of speech, known as the “royal we” or “majestic plural,” is a linguistic feature used to denote honor, power, and greatness.

Ohyoudidnt:
The Plural of Majesty is what @Tenq seems to be asking though he claims it is not.

It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu, ‘We’, for respect or glorification. 2- He may also use the word ana, ‘I’, indicating one person, or the third person huwa, ‘He’. All three styles are used in the Quran, where Allah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue.

Verily, We have given you a manifest victory” [Al-Fath 48:1]

Surah Al-Mulk (67:1) - “Blessed is He in Whose Hand is dominion, and He over all things has power

The Day when the Trumpet will be sounded: that Day, We shall gather the sinful, blear-eyed (with terror). In whispers will they consult each other: ‘You tarried not longer than ten (days).

We know very well what they say, when the best of them in his ways will say, “You did not remain more than one day

It is We/us who have sent down the Remembrance

In the Quran, there are instances where Allah is referred to with the plural of majesty. This form of speech, known as the “royal we” or “majestic plural,” is a linguistic feature used to denote honor, power, and greatness.

The problem is not about the plural majesty but the bad grammar or slip of tongue in the text of Allah. It is impossible that within the same verse sentence , if Allah is a WE, he cannot at the same time be a YOUR

Again:

Qur'an 17:8
It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

It is obvious from the verse above that if Allah is the "WE", he cannot also be the "YOUR"!

Is it not easier, clearer and better for Allah to say:
Qur'an 17:8
It may be that WE your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

The above is a Perfect revision by a mortal man isn't it!?

But this Qur'an 17:8 is obviously a Slip of Tongue from someone trying very hard to impersonate the God of Israel!

MightySparrow:
Well said my brother. . let me first be reading responses.

The grammatical problem is big:
It is obvious from the Qur'an 17:8 verse that if Allah is the "WE", he cannot also be the "YOUR" within the same sentence.

It is either a mistake!
Or a Slip of tongue by Allah!
or bad editing by Mohammed!

TenQ:
I told you that I almost recited the shahada (thanks to Ahmed Deedat) and I got myself a copy of the Glorious Qur'an. It was the Qur'an that stopped me from reciting the shahada and to go deeper in knowledge.
So, I am not using any Arab Kafir books. Knowledge is available to anyone who asks questions for he would be filled.


My ignorance acn easily be exposed through two means
1. How many times did the Word Ahad appear in the Qur'an?
Can you explain how many times Ahad is translated as ONE?
eg.
Quran 4.152, Quran 8.7, Quran 9.6, Qur'an 33:40 with the exception of Qur'an 112:1
2. Can you help me translate these secular sentences into Arabic
1. One of the students received a bravery award.
2. One of the friends gave me a beautiful gift.
3. We celebrate the birthday of one of the relatives.
4. Except you give one of us the book, you are in trouble

Is it untrue that in normal use Ahad is not ONE!
Is it untrue that Waheed is ONE!

Unfortunately your prophet was copying the Jewish Shema
(Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad(Ahad in Arabic)
Translation: "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is One."

The word Echad is the same used in marriage the two of them become one

Gen 2:24:
"This explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife in such a way that the two become one person."

Ahad or Echad makes sense in the light of the Trinity!


Do you think Allah is eloquent in speech and grammar?

Do you believe in this word of Allah or you think Allah doesn't mean what he is saying?
Qur'an 19:97
So We have made this (Qur'an) easy in your tongue that you may give good news to those who take heed, and warn the people who are contentious.

So, why do you need multiplicity of Tafsirs written by human beings who are not even prophets to understand what Allah is saying?

Do you think it makes sense to abandon the plain words of Allah in Arabic and go with the texts of people not called as prophets!?
This is the same accusation Allah gives to the Jews who use their hands to write and call it word of Allah (scripture)

Qur'an 2:79
Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby.

Aren't you guilty of the same offence of the Jews with their multiplicity of Talmuds!?


I wasn't specially trained anywhere. And if I was, it was thanks to Ahmed Deedat and much later Zakir Naik.
I repeat :
When you ask questions, the Truth will come to you.


Speaking about the Jews,
This was why Jesus corrected them of their understanding of the scripture. If they had perfect understanding of God, there would have been no need for Jesus to correct them.

I ask you again:
1. Why do you Muslims insist on not using the definition Allah gives for Trinity in the Quran: are you wiser than Allah?
How did Allah define the Trinity in the Quran?
2. Is it untrue that in Islam you also have the concept of Trinity (which you deny) but you are roped in the doctrine of Duality?
3. Taoheed is a flawed doctrine unfortunately because you won't ask questions, how can you know?
4. Finally, let's assume that the Christians have missed it and are led astray, what is the Offence of the Jews?
5. Is it untrue that Allah directs of to worship him and the Messiah as God?


I will be glad if you can answer especially these last five questions

Thank you so much.
As-salamu alaykum

Lol, sorry to say this, but this is the first time I've seen somebody who's knowledgeable yet an ignorant. You're like a child who eat food (learned) but he's still malnourished (ignorant). That's because he eats only carbohydrates rich foods (learned from questionable sources), zero protein, vitamins and minerals (not from legit source).
U have knowledge, no doubt but u lack "comprehension" and "application". U don't understand what u "know" and u can't apply it in an appropriate way, rather u apply it to suite ur selfish interest. It's a pity that u are a pastor preaching what u know but u do not understand what u know and u believe u do.
Quran is not a Book u read and deduce ur own meanings out of it to suite ur personal interest.

I asked u to give me the meaning of "Ahad" according to the leading Arabic dictionaries such as Lisanul-Arab etc and you're giving me the meaning of "Ahad" in a sentence. You're even using the word "Ahad" to prove trinity?. U need deliverance from ignorance. That's why Allah referred to u (the contemporary Christians) in Quran 1:7 as Addoleen (those who have gone astray).
U in particular have gone too far astray, and I doubt if u can ever hear the call of a caller. So even if I answer all ur questions, u will never be satisfied. Because the answers to the questions u posed are mostly "close ended". If I gave u other answers contrary to ur expectations u will counter them out of ignorance. So it's better I leave u to keep swimming in the pool of ur ignorance.

Ahad - Meaning
Meanwhile, I think it's good I explain (the words) "Ahad" and "Tafsir" to u perhaps u will understand. It won't be good if u take this ignorance to ur grave.
"Ahad" means "one" and not "one of". In Arabic, the word "Ahad" and "Wahid" are synonymous, Allah use them interchangeably.
Allah says:
1. "And your god is (wahid) one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful". (Qur'an 2:163)
2. Say, He is Allah, [who is] one (Ahad). (Quran 112:1)

In Suratul Yusuf (Quran 12:4), Joseph was reported to have said to his father: "...Inni ra'aitu Ahad Asharah Qauqaban wash-shamsu..." ...Indeed I dreamt of Ahad Asharah (eleven) stars, and the sun, and the moon—I saw them prostrating to me!”
In this verse, eleven is Ahad Asharah. It literally means [one (and) ten]= 11 (eleven).

The word "Ahad" has the same meaning with the word "One" in English, it doesn't mean "one of". But if u add "of" to "one" its no longer one word but a phrase. Similarly, in all the examples u gave, a noun followed the word "Ahad" which modified or changed it to mean "One of". That means that the word "Ahad" itself doesn't mean "One of" except if followed by another noun. E.g Ahadu Asdiqah, Ahadut-tullab etc (one of the friends, one of the students). Aside these examples, the word "Ahad" on it's own literally means "One" just like "Wahid".
So, if trinity is true, the Quran and Torah (Quran 112:1) and (Deuteronomy 6:4) Respectively would read:
1. Qul huwallahu "Ahad" ilah. Say, He is Allah, [who is] One (of the Gods)
2. Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad Elah! “Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is one (of the Gods)!

Now, u can see that u have been deceived by the books written by the orientalists and Kafirs trying to justify trinity. The trinity was an interpolation in the New testament. It was as a result of mistake and misinterpretation of the Bible. The origin of this misconception is from
1 John 5:7-8
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. New King James Version (NKJV).
This verse was thrown out of the Bible in some versions. Jehovah's witnesses do not believe in Trinity either, they believe it's a interpolation. While those Christians who believe in Trinity go as far as using other verses to justify it, just as you're trying to prove it using Qur'an and Torah.

Meaning of Tafsir
Tafsir on the other hand, is the Quran exegeses. [b]It's the "compilation" of the authentic sayings (Ahadith) of the prophet, similar verses, historical background etc concerning a particular verse of the Quran about its interpretations according to prophet, causes of its revelation, when, where and how it was revealed, in order to understand the real and true context of the verse. [/b]One of the best compilation on Tafsir is Tafsir ibn Kathir. So, it's different from the Thalmud because it's a compilation from existing texts of Sihaus-sita etc.
Lol, it's surprising to see u quoting and interpreting the Quran, but u don't even know what "Tafsir" means. U said it was written by others. Do u even know the difference between makkan and madinan surahs (chapters). All ur write-ups reek of ignorance. U have been quoting and giving the Quran ur own interpretations. Regardless of the scripture you misinterprete whether Hindu scripture or Quran, it's wrong to say something of which u know nothing about. U need to seek forgiveness from God for misinterpreting His words.

The English translations of the Quran u read and give ur own interpretations are mere translations, they do not represent or convey the true meaning of the Qur'an. U need the Knowledge of "Tafsir" to interpret the Qur'an. Most verses of the Qur'an have a corresponding Hadith that explain it in details.
Some Muslim Scholars are like u, just because they can speak Arabic, they'll be reading and giving the Qur'an their own personal interpretations leading to different sects and promotion of terrorism.

For instance Allah says in Quran 9:5:
...fight and slay the the unbelievers/Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)."
This verse and many others are quoted out of context to instigate fight to kill Christians, Jews and other Non-muslims. In Tafsir, u will see Ahadith about its context, where, when and how it was revealed, the historical background etc. From there, u will understand that it's about a defensive war in a battlefield, it's not asking u to go kill the Christian, Jews etc. Muslims who are good in Arabic would read and apply these types of verses to encourage the killings of Christians and other Non-muslims because of one little misunderstanding, leading to lost of lives and other terrorism.
Muslims should be grateful to God that u didn't convert to Islam, because if u had converted, with the way u are quoting and misinterpreting Qur'an (in ur own way), u may be in the same level with Osāma bin Ladēn or Shikau. Ur type no go gree for anybody, if u don't know the corresponding Hadith that explains a particular verse, u will never admit it, u'll rather give ur own interpretations and claim that Allah inspire u to interpret it that way. I'm just wondering the kind of harm you're currently doing to Christianity in the name of interpreting the word of God. Imagine saying that "Echad" in the book of Deuteronomy means "One of".
In the midst of the one-eyed people (more ignorant than u), u may be their king (seem learned), but in midst of those with two eyes (more knowledgeable than u) u are blind (ignorant who lacks comprehension and application of the scripture).
May the almighty Allah, Alaha and Eloha (Yahweh) guide u to the right path, not the path of those who have earned His anger and not the path of those who have gone astray.



Peace be unto those who follow the guidance!

TenQ:
The grammatical problem is big:
It is obvious from the Qur'an 17:8 verse that if Allah is the "WE", he cannot also be the "YOUR" within the same sentence.

It is either a mistake!
Or a Slip of tongue by Allah!
or bad editing by Mohammed!

Lol, like I say, all ur comments reeks of ignorance. If no be ignoramus wey u be, who uses English grammar and Sentence structure of English to judge classical Arabic? What's wrong in English grammar is right in Arabic grammar. The grammar and choice of words of Modern Standard Arabic, and Colloquial or Daily Arabic and its grammar are different from the Quranic or Classical Arabic. In fact, Quranic or Classical Arabic predates "Arabic grammar", so u can't use Arabic grammar to judge or correct Quranic grammar or the choice of words, much less English grammar.

Secondly, the text u quote is a rough translation of the word of God, not its true representation or the word of God exactly. So, are u using the rough translation of a Quranic verse in written in English to judge and point out grammar errors of a Book written in old or classical Arabic? Do u know Nahwul Arabiy (Arabic grammar)? Do u know Tafsir (Quran exegesis)?.

In good faith I am writing this hoping that we can at least relate as friends intellectually.
I Appreciate your time used to pen this!

Almunjid:
Lol, sorry to say this, but this is the first time I've seen somebody who's knowledgeable yet an ignorant. You're like a child who eat food (learned) but he's still malnourished (ignorant). That's because he eats only carbohydrates rich foods (learned from questionable sources), zero protein, vitamins and minerals (not from legit source).
U have knowledge, no doubt but u lack "comprehension" and "application". U don't understand what u "know" and u can't apply it in an appropriate way, rather u apply it to suite ur selfish interest. It's a pity that u are a pastor preaching what u know but u do not understand what u know and u believe u do.
Quran is not a Book u read and deduce ur own meanings out of it to suite ur personal interest.

My Observation :
I think that it is actually safe to say that few Muslims believe directly the words of Allah but rather, your beliefs is hinged on the consensus of your scholars.

The only reason you accuse me if ignorance is because I read the words of Allah according to how he has said it rather than the way you modern Muslims would want everyone to see it.

How do you Muslims read and interpret the Bible? Do you just accept what we tell you or what our scripture is perceived by you to say!?

Almunjid:
I asked u to give me the meaning of "Ahad" according to the leading Arabic dictionaries such as Lisanul-Arab etc and you're giving me the meaning of "Ahad" in a sentence. You're even using the word "Ahad" to prove trinity?. U need deliverance from ignorance. That's why Allah referred to u (the contemporary Christians) in Quran 1:7 as Addoleen (those who have gone astray).
U in particular have gone too far astray, and I doubt if u can ever hear the call of a caller. So even if I answer all ur questions, u will never be satisfied. Because the answers to the questions u posed are mostly "close ended". If I gave u other answers contrary to ur expectations u will counter them out of ignorance. So it's better I leave u to keep swimming in the pool of ur ignorance.

Ahad - Meaning
Meanwhile, I think it's good I explain (the words) "Ahad" and "Tafsir" to u perhaps u will understand. It won't be good if u take this ignorance to ur grave.
"Ahad" means "one" and not "one of". In Arabic, the word "Ahad" and "Wahid" are synonymous, Allah use them interchangeably.
Allah says:
1. "And your god is (wahid) one God. There is no deity [worthy of worship] except Him, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful". (Qur'an 2:163)
2. Say, He is Allah, [who is] one (Ahad). (Quran 112:1)

In Suratul Yusuf (Quran 12:4), Joseph was reported to have said to his father: "...Inni ra'aitu Ahad Asharah Qauqaban wash-shamsu..." ...Indeed I dreamt of Ahad Asharah (eleven) stars, and the sun, and the moon—I saw them prostrating to me!”
In this verse, eleven is Ahad Asharah. It literally means [one (and) ten]= 11 (eleven).

The word "Ahad" has the same meaning with the word "One" in English, it doesn't mean "one of". But if u add "of" to "one" its no longer one word but a phrase. Similarly, in all the examples u gave, a noun followed the word "Ahad" which modified or changed it to mean "One of". That means that the word "Ahad" itself doesn't mean "One of" except if followed by another noun. E.g Ahadu Asdiqah, Ahadut-tullab etc (one of the friends, one of the students). Aside these examples, the word "Ahad" on it's own literally means "One" just like "Wahid".
So, if trinity is true, the Quran and Torah (Quran 112:1) and (Deuteronomy 6:4) Respectively would read:
1. Qul huwallahu "Ahad" ilah. Say, He is Allah, [who is] One (of the Gods)
2. Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad Elah! “Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God, the Lord is one (of the Gods)!

Now, u can see that u have been deceived by the books written by the orientalists and Kafirs trying to justify trinity. The trinity was an interpolation in the New testament. It was as a result of mistake and misinterpretation of the Bible. The origin of this misconception is from
1 John 5:7-8
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one. New King James Version (NKJV).
This verse was thrown out of the Bible in some versions. Jehovah's witnesses do not believe in Trinity either, they believe it's a interpolation. While those Christians who believe in Trinity go as far as using other verses to justify it, just as you're trying to prove it using Qur'an and Torah.

Meaning of Tafsir
Tafsir on the other hand, is the Quran exegeses. [b]It's the "compilation" of the authentic sayings (Ahadith) of the prophet, similar verses, historical background etc concerning a particular verse of the Quran about its interpretations according to prophet, causes of its revelation, when, where and how it was revealed, in order to understand the real and true context of the verse. [/b]One of the best compilation on Tafsir is Tafsir ibn Kathir. So, it's different from the Thalmud because it's a compilation from existing texts of Sihaus-sita etc.
Lol, it's surprising to see u quoting and interpreting the Quran, but u don't even know what "Tafsir" means. U said it was written by others. Do u even know the difference between makkan and madinan surahs (chapters). All ur write-ups reek of ignorance. U have been quoting and giving the Quran ur own interpretations. Regardless of the scripture you misinterprete whether Hindu scripture or Quran, it's wrong to say something of which u know nothing about. U need to seek forgiveness from God for misinterpreting His words.

You have tried your best to explain the words Ahad and Tafsirs: then you threw in 1 John 5:7-8 to explain away the Trinity and I laugh! I wouldn't want to argue anything on this as it will lead no where. Of course, Waheed is strictly ONE but not Ahad and Ahad could also imply UNITY (but, let's leave this for now)
However, you don't even understand what Trinity is : this is probably the misconception of your prophet in the Qur'an.

I wish you can respond to these questions :
1. According to Allah in the Qur'an, what is Trinity?
2. How do you think Trinity violates the Oneness of God?

Almunjid:
The English translations of the Quran u read and give ur own interpretations are mere translations, they do not represent or convey the true meaning of the Qur'an. U need the Knowledge of "Tafsir" to interpret the Qur'an. Most verses of the Qur'an have a corresponding Hadith that explain it in details.
Some Muslim Scholars are like u, just because they can speak Arabic, they'll be reading and giving the Qur'an their own personal interpretations leading to different sects and promotion of terrorism.

For instance Allah says in Quran 9:5:
...fight and slay the the unbelievers/Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)."
This verse and many others are quoted out of context to instigate fight to kill Christians, Jews and other Non-muslims. In Tafsir, u will see Ahadith about its context, where, when and how it was revealed, the historical background etc. From there, u will understand that it's about a defensive war in a battlefield, it's not asking u to go kill the Christian, Jews etc. Muslims who are good in Arabic would read and apply these types of verses to encourage the killings of Christians and other Non-muslims because of one little misunderstanding, leading to lost of lives and other terrorism.
Muslims should be grateful to God that u didn't convert to Islam, because if u had converted, with the way u are quoting and misinterpreting Qur'an (in ur own way), u may be in the same level with Osāma bin Ladēn or Shikau. Ur type no go gree for anybody, if u don't know the corresponding Hadith that explains a particular verse, u will never admit it, u'll rather give ur own interpretations and claim that Allah inspire u to interpret it that way. I'm just wondering the kind of harm you're currently doing to Christianity in the name of interpreting the word of God. Imagine saying that "Echad" in the book of Deuteronomy means "One of".
In the midst of the one-eyed people (more ignorant than u), u may be their king (seem learned), but in midst of those with two eyes (more knowledgeable than u) u are blind (ignorant who lacks comprehension and application of the scripture).
May the almighty Allah, Alaha and Eloha (Yahweh) guide u to the right path, not the path of those who have earned His anger and not the path of those who have gone astray.



Peace be unto those who follow the guidance!

Is it true that the phrase " Peace be unto those who follow the guidance!" mean "Peace only to Muslims!?" Please wish me peace to o!!
LOL!

The Qur'an is supposed to be the eternal words of Allah suitable for ALL generations of mankind as guidance :
Unfortunately,
The Qur'an is thoroughly incomplete, this is why it cannot stand alone as the words of Allah? One needs to compare with Hadiths of your prophet (which I think should understand the Qur'an better) and Tafsirs (which usually contain disagreement with other scholars). The Tafsirs to me are " supposed answers to problems created in the Qur'an" which usually is not even a unified concensus. Thus, a Muslim will only take what appeals to them from these exegesis and Reject whatever they don't like.

I honestly think that you Muslims lack comprehension either of your Qur'an or of the Bible because
1. You don't ask questions and you just memorise
2. Even when you ask questions, all you care about is the concensus of your scholars rather than the truth
3. You always use Strawman arguments against Christians

I wish you help me answer these following questions you skipped before
In addition to the first two questions above :
3. Is it untrue that in Islam you also have the concept of Trinity (which you deny) but you are roped in the doctrine of Duality?
4. Taoheed is a flawed doctrine unfortunately because you won't ask questions, how can you know?
5. Finally, let's assume that the Christians have missed it and are led astray, what is the Offence of the Jews?
6. Is it untrue that Allah directs of to worship him and the Messiah as God?

Almunjid:
Lol, like I say, all ur comments reeks of ignorance. If no be ignoramus wey u be, who uses English grammar and Sentence structure of English to judge classical Arabic? What's wrong in English grammar is right in Arabic grammar. The grammar and choice of words of Modern Standard Arabic, and Colloquial or Daily Arabic and its grammar are different from the Quranic or Classical Arabic. In fact, Quranic or Classical Arabic predates "Arabic grammar", so u can't use Arabic grammar to judge or correct Quranic grammar or the choice of words, much less English grammar.

I said:
The grammatical problem is big:
It is obvious from the Qur'an 17:8 verse that if Allah is the "WE", he cannot also be the "YOUR" within the same sentence.
It is a fact irrespective of whether it is in classical or modern Arabic or another language. The word YOUR and WE in any language within the same sentence cannot refer to the same person.

I am a human being, presumably infinitely less in articulation, speech and literature than Allah however look at my corrected version and tell me it isn't less confusing.

Is it not easier, clearer and better for Allah to say:
Qur'an 17:8
It may be that WE your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

Almunjid:
Secondly, the text u quote is a rough translation of the word of God, not its true representation or the word of God exactly. So, are u using the rough translation of a Quranic verse in written in English to judge and point out grammar errors of a Book written in old or classical Arabic? Do u know Nahwul Arabiy (Arabic grammar)? Do u know Tafsir (Quran exegesis)?.

You forget that Hebrew is a semitic language like Arabic and it doesn't cause problems like you assume the Qur'an will cause when translated.

Except Islam is just for the Arabs!

Unfortunately, there is no Arab Muslim who will claim to understand the Qur'an without the exegesis and consensus opinion of your scholars!


It is obvious from the verse above that if Allah is the "WE", he cannot also be the "YOUR" and within the same sentence:
It doesn't matter the language, or dialect or flavour (classical or modern) !

TenQ:
In good faith I am writing this hoping that we can at least relate as friends intellectually.
I Appreciate your time used to pen this!


My Observation :
I think that it is actually safe to say that few Muslims believe directly the words of Allah but rather, your beliefs is hinged on the consensus of your scholars.

The only reason you accuse me if ignorance is because I read the words of Allah according to how he has said it rather than the way you modern Muslims would want everyone to see it.

How do you Muslims read and interpret the Bible? Do you just accept what we tell you or what our scripture is perceived by you to say!?





You have tried your best to explain the words Ahad and Tafsirs: then you threw in 1 John 5:7-8 to explain away the Trinity and I laugh! I wouldn't want to argue anything on this as it will lead no where. Of course, Waheed is strictly ONE but not Ahad and Ahad could also imply UNITY (but, let's leave this for now)
However, you don't even understand what Trinity is : this is probably the misconception of your prophet in the Qur'an.

I wish you can respond to these questions :
1. According to Allah in the Qur'an, what is Trinity?
2. How do you think Trinity violates the Oneness of God?



Is it true that the phrase " Peace be unto those who follow the guidance!" mean "Peace only to Muslims!?" Please wish me peace to o!!
LOL!

The Qur'an is supposed to be the eternal words of Allah suitable for ALL generations of mankind as guidance :
Unfortunately,
The Qur'an is thoroughly incomplete, this is why it cannot stand alone as the words of Allah? One needs to compare with Hadiths of your prophet (which I think should understand the Qur'an better) and Tafsirs (which usually contain disagreement with other scholars). The Tafsirs to me are " supposed answers to problems created in the Qur'an" which usually is not even a unified concensus. Thus, a Muslim will only take what appeals to them from these exegesis and Reject whatever they don't like.

I honestly think that you Muslims lack comprehension either of your Qur'an or of the Bible because
1. You don't ask questions and you just memorise
2. Even when you ask questions, all you care about is the concensus of your scholars rather than the truth
3. You always use Strawman arguments against Christians

I wish you help me answer these following questions you skipped before
In addition to the first two questions above :
3. Is it untrue that in Islam you also have the concept of Trinity (which you deny) but you are roped in the doctrine of Duality?
4. Taoheed is a flawed doctrine unfortunately because you won't ask questions, how can you know?
5. Finally, let's assume that the Christians have missed it and are led astray, what is the Offence of the Jews?
6. Is it untrue that Allah directs of to worship him and the Messiah as God?

After all I've explained to u, u still believe that "Ahad" is "one of" and "Tafsir" is based on consensus of the scholars and not Ahadith?. Ur "knowledgelessness" is beyond redemption. I've already given up on u. Allowing u to keep swimming in the pool of ur ignorance would serve u better.

- Imam Al-Khalil Al-Farahidi, one of the 'fathers'
of Arabic grammar and the teacher of Imam al-Sibawaih said:

"There are 4 types of men:

1. A man who knows and knows that he knows, he is a scholar so ask him.

2. A man who knows and doesn't know that he
knows, he is heedless [of his duty to teach or speak] so bring it to his attention.

3. A man who doesn't know and knows that he
doesn't know, he is ignorant so teach him.

4. A man who doesn't know and doesn't know that he doesn't know, he is a fool so stay away from him."

I thought u belong to the 3rd category (an ignorant person who should be taught), I never knew that u are already swimming in the 4th category. Level-headed individuals like us are advised to stay away from people like u. So, I'm walking away!.


Goodbye!

Almunjid:
After all I've explained to u, u still believe that "Ahad" is "one of" and "Tafsir" is based on consensus of the scholars and not Ahadith?. Ur "knowledgelessness" is beyond redemption. I've already given up on u. Allowing to keep swimming in the pool of ur ignorance would serve u better.

1. I think you are so biased as to see that I didn't even argue one bit about the word Ahad in my post.
What I said was

You have tried your best to explain the words Ahad and Tafsirs: then you threw in 1 John 5:7-8 to explain away the Trinity and I laugh! I wouldn't want to argue anything on this as it will lead no where. Of course, Waheed is strictly ONE but not Ahad and Ahad could also imply UNITY (but, let's leave this for now)

2. I have to the best of my ability shifted the talk away from Islam toward what you undersd in the Christian faith

So my friend, I think your bias has clouded your judgment. I have mainly asked questions about Trinity with respect to the Taoheed!

Almunjid:
- Imam Al-Khalil Al-Farahidi, one of the 'fathers'
of Arabic grammar and the teacher of Imam al-Sibawaih said:

"There are 4 types of men:
1. A man who knows and knows that he knows, he is a scholar so ask him.
2. A man who knows and doesn't know that he knows, he is heedless [of his duty to teach or speak] so bring it to his attention.
3. A man who doesn't know and knows that he doesn't know, he is ignorant so teach him.
4. A man who doesn't know and doesn't know that he doesn't know, he is a fool so stay away from him."

I thought u belong to the 3rd category (an ignorant person who should be taught), I never knew that u are already swimming in the 4th category. Level-headed individuals like us are advised to stay away from people like u. So, I'm walking away!.
Goodbye!

If you check again: your bias has clouded your judgement. Just as you would not be ignorant if don't to accept Everything I say to you, I think this should be reciprocal.

Could it be that you are avoiding my questions?

I wish you can respond to these questions :
1. According to Allah in the Qur'an, what is Trinity?
2. How do you think Trinity violates the Oneness of God?
3. Is it untrue that in Islam you also have the concept of Trinity (which you deny) but you are roped in the doctrine of Duality?
4. Taoheed is a flawed doctrine unfortunately because you won't ask questions, how can you know?
5. Finally, let's assume that the Christians have missed it and are led astray, what is the Offence of the Jews?
6. Is it untrue that Allah directs of to worship him and the Messiah as God?

TenQ:
The problem is not about the plural majesty but the bad grammar or slip of tongue in the text of Allah. It is impossible that within the same verse sentence , if Allah is a WE, he cannot at the same time be a YOUR

Again:

Qur'an 17:8
It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

It is obvious from the verse above that if Allah is the "WE", he cannot also be the "YOUR"!

Is it not easier, clearer and better for Allah to say:
Qur'an 17:8
It may be that WE your Lord will have mercy on you, but if ye repeat (the crime) We shall repeat (the punishment), and We have appointed hell a dungeon for the disbelievers.

The above is a Perfect revision by a mortal man isn't it!?

But this Qur'an 17:8 is obviously a Slip of Tongue from someone trying very hard to impersonate the God of Israel!

Bad grammar in English translation or bad grammar in Arabic language?

Ohyoudidnt:
Bad grammar in English translation or bad grammar in Arabic language?

Bad grammar in English, Arabic and any other language