₦airaland Forum

tctrills:
Oga, for the sake of this discussion,

Never call me your OGA yet because you will soon beg me to stop exposing your ignorance.

Oya explain what Jesus meant saying.

"Father, let this cup pass over me? Luke 22:42

Because from his own brain that's the right thing o!

DaddyCoool:
Are you just pretending to be obtuse sir?
The most important parts of my statement are:
FOR OUR PURPOSES HERE and
FROM OUR MACRO PERSPECTIVE

Now rewrite your post using those and we'll see who is thicker than a bag of rice!

FOR YOUR PURPOSES, maybe confusing counter-intuitive with illogical is convenient.

FROM YOUR MACRO PERSPECTIVE, maybe anything beyond secondary school physics looks like magic.

But in the realm of critical and rigorous thinking, which is where this conversation is supposed to be taking place, they will continue to remain fundamentally different concepts. And that's that.

Know your cognitive limitations.

DaddyCoool:
There you go again sir.
Now re-write the above post using:
FROM OUR MACRO PERSPECTIVE and we'll see whose argument has illogic as characteristic!

I'll say it again and again, those two words are more different than you think. And that's that. If you can't see how your argument isn't logical, then the joke's on you. Sadly.

MaxInDHouse:
Never call me your OGA yet because you will soon beg me to stop exposing your ignorance.

Oya explain what Jesus meant saying.

"Father, let this cup pass over me? Luke 22:42

Because from his own brain that's the right thing o!

You are confusing yourself. Did he tell you that from his own brain that is the right thing or are you guessing what was in his brain?
Hope you know that you need your brain cells for guess work and that is not allowed in your group.
He asked for the cup to pass because he was in pain. He never stated that it had anything to do with right or wrong.
Let me give you a practical example, a woman in labour, she want the pain to pass but she has to go through the pain to give birth so if the woman is wishing for the pain to end, you would somehow twist it that it's a matter of right or wrong.
It is really showing, you have suspended your brain. I no longer blame you as I used to.

tctrills:
You are confusing yourself. Did he tell you that from his own brain that is the right thing or are you guessing what was in his brain?

Explain what he meant nah!

FiveFootNinja:
Honestly I only shared that link to make a rhetorical point that you should go there and argue with actual physicists since you're so sure of your claims. I was half-serious, and also half-joking. But I like how you cherry picked a single comment from that thread that seemingly supports your claim but ignored the actual punchline of my reference and let it fly swiftly over your head. Lol.

For the avoidance of any doubt, I'll address the comment you lifted from that thread.

The guy in your screenshot compared quantum tunneling to a low resolution game rendering. Personally I don't think his analogy is accurate because if you actually take the time to read on quantum tunneling, you'll learn that it's not necessarily a glitch in the way that guy described it. It is a mathematically precise phenomenon predicted and confirmed through experiments already carried out. Read the subheading in this wiki titled "Mathematical Discussion":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling#:~:text=In%20physics%2C%20quantum%20tunnelling%2C%20barrier,of%20a%20finite%20potential%20well.

I'll reiterate again, and as I've just shown you, quantum tunneling is clearly rooted in mathematical formalisms. So you can make the argument that it is counterintuitive since it defies the notions of classical physics, but it is NOT illogical.

Obviously I expect you to come back once again and bicker some more without a convincing counterargument.

You keep trying to play this your word game of "illogical" vs. "counterintuitive". Intuition follows logic, doesn't it? Or is it just based on nothing?
Something can be logical from one perspective but illogical from another. I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU CAN'T GET THAT!!
QM is not confined to maths!
QM can never be logical from our everyday macroscopic world perspective!!

FiveFootNinja:
I'll say it again and again, those two words are more different than you think. And that's that. If you can't see how your argument isn't logical, then the joke's on you. Sadly.

For our purposes here on this thread both words work just fine. We're just trying to convey that QM does not follow our everyday macro logical pattern NOT that it lacks logic in it's own quantum world!

FiveFootNinja:
FOR YOUR PURPOSES, maybe confusing counter-intuitive with illogical is convenient.

FROM YOUR MACRO PERSPECTIVE, maybe anything beyond secondary school physics looks like magic.

But in the realm of critical and rigorous thinking, which is where this conversation is supposed to be taking place, they will continue to remain fundamentally different concepts. And that's that.

Know your cognitive limitations.

Well, NL is a layman's forum. It is not a place of "critical and rigorous thinking". "Illogical" serves us just fine here and conveys the meaning we want it to convey. No need to keep repeating a long word like "counterintuitive"!

MaxInDHouse:
Explain what he meant nah!

He meant that he was going through so much suffering. He did not mean that he no longer needed his brain. Do you get it now.

DaddyCoool:
You keep trying to play this your word game of "illogical" vs. "counterintuitive". Intuition follows logic, doesn't it? Or is it just based on nothing?
Something can be logical from one perspective but illogical from another. I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU CAN'T GET THAT!!
QM is not confined to maths!
QM can never be logical from our everyday macroscopic world perspective!!

Intuition doesn't always follow logic. In fact most of the time it defies it, and that's because intuition is not based on logical systems, but on our past experiences and cognitive bias as human beings.

I don't know if you're familiar with Carl Jung and his personality theories. Basically, on a surface level they might look similar, but logic and intuition are so dramatically different in the way they function and so trying to define them interchangeably the way you're doing will always be problematic.

So far so good, it sounds like you're slowly coming to realize the outright futility of your position. I mean, I've not read anything from you yet that shows you rejecting the idea that QM clearly operates according to certain math principles or structures, even though they seem counterintuitive in classical physics.

And I never said QM was confined to maths alone. That's just you showing your misunderstanding of my argument.

The only thing that remains to be seen is if you'll finally accept the limitations of your own understanding instead of trying to force your cognitive dissonance into the subject by fire by force. 🤷🏽

And at the end of the day, the laws of physics are not beholden to our subjective opinions, so you can discard that talk about logical perspectives.

DaddyCoool:
For our purposes here on this thread both words work just fine. We're just trying to convey that QM does not follow our everyday macro logical pattern NOT that it lacks logic in it's own quantum world!

The boundary you're trying to create between "everyday macro logic" and "quantum world logic" simply cannot exist, I'm sorry, because the core principles of logical inference (forming a premise and framework) remain constant under any scale, whether big or small. The only thing that's changing is the physical laws underlying QM. It's really that simple. I'm starting to think this basic concept is far and wide beyond your pay grade. No offense.

DaddyCoool:
Well, NL is a layman's forum. It is not a place of "critical and rigorous thinking". "Illogical" serves us just fine here and conveys the meaning we want it to convey. No need to keep repeating a long word like "counterintuitive"!

Lol. This is the problem with some of you Nigerians. Stubbornly clinging on to a fundamental mischaracterization is not the flex you think it is. 😂

People who actually care for clarity and accurate representation of thoughts and ideas shouldn't be proud of their own misunderstanding. If counter-intuitive is too much of a tongue twister for you, I can give you 4 alternatives that best describe the nature of QM: Unexpected. Surprising. Strange. Weird.

Although I have a feeling that all the words I just mentioned will not go well with the narrative you've been working on for so long in this topic.

If you can accept the fact that the nature of our reality is not defined by your linguistic preferences, then I'm confident you will find inner peace. 🌚

FiveFootNinja:
Intuition doesn't always follow logic. In fact most of the time it defies it, and that's because intuition is not based on logical systems, but on our past experiences and cognitive bias as human beings.

I don't know if you're familiar with Carl Jung and his personality theories. Basically, on a surface level they might look similar, but logic and intuition are so dramatically different in the way they function and so trying to define them interchangeably the way you're doing will always be problematic.

So far so good, it sounds like you're slowly coming to realize the outright futility of your position. I mean, I've not read anything from you yet that shows you rejecting the idea that QM clearly operates according to certain math principles or structures, even though they seem counterintuitive in classical physics.

And I never said QM was confined to maths alone. That's just you showing your misunderstanding of my argument.

The only thing that remains to be seen is if you'll finally accept the limitations of your own understanding instead of trying to force your cognitive dissonance into the subject by fire by force. 🤷🏽

And at the end of the day, the laws of physics are not beholden to our subjective opinions, so you can discard that talk about logical perspectives.

FiveFootNinja:
The boundary you're trying to create between "everyday macro logic" and "quantum world logic" simply cannot exist, I'm sorry, because the core principles of logical inference (forming a premise and framework) remain constant under any scale, whether big or small. The only thing that's changing is the physical laws underlying QM. It's really that simple. I'm starting to think this basic concept is far and wide beyond your pay grade. No offense.

FiveFootNinja:
Lol. This is the problem with some of you Nigerians. Stubbornly clinging on to a fundamental mischaracterization is not the flex you think it is. 😂

People who actually care for clarity and accurate representation of thoughts and ideas shouldn't be proud of their own misunderstanding. If counter-intuitive is too much of a tongue twister for you, I can give you 4 alternatives that best describe the nature of QM: Unexpected. Surprising. Strange. Weird.

Although I have a feeling that all the words I just mentioned will not go well with the narrative you've been working on for so long in this topic.

If you can accept the fact that the nature of our reality is not defined by your linguistic preferences, then I'm confident you will find inner peace. 🌚

To cut to the chase and save everybody time, please enumerate for us one by one how the following quantum properties are LOGICAL in our everyday Nairaland life.
You can start by telling us how it is logical for you to appear at the other side of a wall you shouldn't be able to walk through

MaxInDHouse:
For the benefit of interested followers!

After Jesus' baptism as a man God's Holy Spirit led him into the wilderness and for the next forty days he was with the spirit of God but after the days were ended another spirit began talking to Jesus:

“If you are a son of God, tell these stones to become loaves of bread.”

At that Jesus responded:

“It is written: ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”

Again this spirit took him to a high place and said to Jesus:

“If you are a son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written: ‘He will give his angels a command concerning you,’ and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, so that you may not strike your foot against a stone.’”

At that Jesus responded:

“Again it is written: ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test."

At last this spirit showed him all the Kingdoms of the world and their glory then said to Jesus:

“All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”

Finally Jesus got the clear picture of the spirit that is now talking to him so he responded:

“Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Now answer your own question:

At such a moment is Jesus following instructions or using his brain to discern the difference between the two spirits that had been talking to him?

Remember both spoke to him one immediately after the other.

well this your jw Bible it is quite different from the normal Bible because in the normal Bible there is no two spirit talking to Jesus at the same. You are talking about the temptation of Jesus.

The Lord Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit to the wilderness to fast and after he had fast and pray 40 days the devil came to tempt him. It is like the normal temptation everyone of face in our lives, Jesus had the grace and wisdom to overcome the devil and because he had the grace and wisdom to overcome the devil we too also have the same grace and wisdom to overcome the devil. So there suspension of brain here. There is no switching on and off of the brain, just having the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit telling us how to overcome the devil.


Then why do jw attributing the devil with another spirit. You don't want to tell us he is. The devil is the devil. Evil and bad. Anyway am talking with a jw. You said say it the devil because it is your master

LordReed:
LoLz. Use placebo effect to turn water to wine.

Please Join Me In Wishing Happy Atheist Day To All Our Favorite Nairaland Atheists!

Gabrielshow24, MaxInDHouse, Newgoodkk, tctrills, delkuf

Folks if you know any atheists, please indicate so I can tag them below

Seun
HopefulLandlord
Jaephoenix
Knownunknown
TheSourcerer
Busybrain2233
1Sharon.
TakeNigeriaBack
Botragelad
Fourthpredator
Lorrayne
HardMirror
Hahn
SlawG
albreezy4eva
Muslim
Dominique
Mrbroke
EnemyofGod2
kkins25
JessicaRabbit
Wilgrea7
A001
SIXFEETUNDER
OkpaNsukkaisBae
Bacteriologist
FRANCISTOWN(me, myself)

delkuf:
well this your jw Bible it is quite different from the normal Bible because in the normal Bible there is no two spirit talking to Jesus at the same. You are talking about the temptation of Jesus.

The Lord Jesus was led by the Holy Spirit to the wilderness to fast and after he had fast and pray 40 days the devil came to tempt him. It is like the normal temptation everyone of face in our lives, Jesus had the grace and wisdom to overcome the devil and because he had the grace and wisdom to overcome the devil we too also have the same grace and wisdom to overcome the devil. So there suspension of brain here. There is no switching on and off of the brain, just having the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit telling us how to overcome the devil.


Then why do jw attributing the devil with another spirit. You don't want to tell us he is. The devil is the devil. Evil and bad. Anyway am talking with a jw. You said say it the devil because it is your master

Is it a visible man or an invisible spirit that led Jesus into the wilderness?

Let's start from there.

FiveFootNinja:
Exactly. 😂

She boxed herself into a corner with her suspect claims and now she's throwing everything at the wall except the kitchen sink to salvage her sinking position.

I dunno what someone gains from lying like DaddyCoool does.

tctrills:
He meant that he was going through so much suffering. He did not mean that he no longer needed his brain. Do you get it now.

NO!
You are lying what Jesus is telling his dad is that he feels the situation shouldn't be but he is willing to go through it if that's what his father chooses.
You can't be going through excruciating pains yet say it's OK when you have a choice to release yourself so to do that you must suspend the use of your brain and focus on doing what you were told to do even when you are not comfortable with the whole thing.

DaddyCoool:
To cut to the chase and save everybody time, please enumerate for us one by one how the following quantum properties are LOGICAL in our everyday Nairaland life.
You can start by telling us how it is logical for you to appear at the other side of a wall you shouldn't be able to walk through

I'll just let the the experts do the talking in my next couple of posts with screenshots and links to their sources. If you don't respect my opinion, at least you should respect the opinions of those who have spent years researching these concepts in their field. Also keep in mind the meaning of the word logical as you read.

1. WAVE-PARTICLE DUALITY
https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Supplemental_Modules_(Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry)/Quantum_Mechanics/02._Fundamental_Concepts_of_Quantum_Mechanics/Wave-Particle_Duality#:~:text=This%20relationship%20was%20confirmed%20by,wavelength%20using%20de%20Broglie%20relationship.

3.

4.

5. QUANTUM TUNNELING
I already addressed it in this response
https://www.nairaland.com/8383051/please-explain-these-adam-eve/9#134792899

6.

7.

DaddyCoool, this is FiveFootNinja.

I think the spambots are on a rampage because of my links. So I'll just avoid linking them henceforth, there's nothing I can do. I can't keep waiting till tomorrow for the ban to be lifted because I have better things to do. So I'll just keep posting what I wanted with this one, and take a break until the account is restored.

I stopped here
2. QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT

3. SUPERPOSITION

MaxInDHouse:
Is it a visible man or an invisible spirit that led Jesus into the wilderness?

Let's start from there.

it is the Holy Spirit. Though invisible.
He led the Lord Jesus into the wilderness. Jesus was there 40 days without food. The Lord Jesus was hungry and the devil came to tempt him. This is the event you painted. So I told we all face temptation. The devil even you but there is no suspending of brain. The Holy Spirit is us helping us overcome the temptation of the devil.

If the devil tells you to go and steal you will need to suspend you brain to know that the devil is tempting you to do something wrong.
Even sinners overcome the devil. Does that mean they suspend there brains

4. UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE

LordReed you might want to see this particular one too. I think this is a direct rebuttal to DaddyCoool's original position.

5. QUANTUM NONLOCALITY

Read under the subheading "Possibilistic nonlocality"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_nonlocality

6. QUANTUM RANDOMNESS

Read under the subheading "(a) Early views on quantum randomness"
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsta.2017.0322

Sorry about the messy response. I was trying the avoid cramming everything into one post for fear of getting banned for all my efforts, and I still got banned anyway.

I'll resume when my other account is restored.

MaxInDHouse:
NO!
You are lying what Jesus is telling his dad is that he feels the situation shouldn't be but he is willing to go through it if that's what his father chooses.
You can't be going through excruciating pains yet say it's OK when you have a choice to release yourself so to do that you must suspend the use of your brain and focus on doing what you were told to do even when you are not comfortable with the whole thing.

So according to JW, one can't go through excruciating pains and yet say it's ok when you have a choice to release yourself.

Who told you that? Where did you get such foolish idea from? Did you just make up the nonsense?
In the Vietnam war 2 American soldiers were injured and trapped beyond enemy line. The one with less injury had a choice to leave his friend to die or be captured by the enemy. But he chose to carry his friend despite the pain.
People do it all the time.
So the idea that you need to somehow go brainless to in order to sacrifice for others is a JW idea and like all their ideas, it is false.
Please where is it written that Jesus Christ went on brainless mode?
Again, you are yet to answer, do your governing body also go brainless or is it just you their sheep?