₦airaland Forum

Procashtips:
No originality again, everything in the west has been bastardized.

The English people still bury their kings or queens the way they have done thousands of years ago, but in Yoruba land, they have turned their kingship and traditions to hiphip foreign religion koko tales.

Nothing original about their culture again.

What a sad story.

So you must also support cultures that bury living beings with their late kings, right? Maybe if you or one of your loves is a victim of this barbarism disguised as culture, you will start to think and speak sensibly. Some of you defend evil practices in the name of preserving culture.

That's how a man will die, his wife will he forced to sleep in the same room with the corpse for days. They will also force her to drink the bath water of his remains. You also think this is culture? African nations will hardly prosper because of these wicked practices they call culture.

mastermaestro:
So you must also support cultures that bury living beings with their late kings, right? Maybe if you or one of your loves is a victim of this barbarism disguised as culture, you will start to think and speak sensibly. Some of you defend evil practices in the name of preserving culture.

That's how a man will die, his wife will he forced to sleep in the same room with the corpse for days. They will also force her to drink the bath water of his remains. You also think this is culture? African nations will hardly prosper because of these wicked practices they call culture.

Do Yoruba people bury people alive in their culture?

beardedboy:
A king is not a spiritual title. It's a rulership title.

Also, Islam predates a lot of these idols that are being worshipped today in Yoruba land. Go and ask around. That's why there's mention of Imole in odu ifa. Islam already existed in Yoruba land before the ifa incantations were compiled. Do some studying.

Most importantly, there's absolutely no reason for tradition to remain stagnant. We advance in all aspects of our lives when we see an abviously better option. Why should that exclude our religion and belief?!

What are u smoking. Islam entered yoruba land in 1666. Why are u making it like Islam has been in Yoruba land before the birth of Jesus. Are u ok sha? So you're telling me Islam predated sango,obatala,oya, ogun,orunmila ??
You lots will just will just come online and start spewing nonsense without any iota of truth. O ma se oo

Softmirror:
Someone was beaten to death a few weeks ago, another just three days ago by Masquerade. That is why our culture and tradition must be respected for it's uniqueness.

Compare that to the number of people that die in the hand of hisslamic terrorist everyday. We really need to respect our traditions and culture

RavinWolf:
😂😂 Oluwo don vex scatter table wey don dey since Oduduwa time!

Baba say “I don free Iwo from bondage” — e no even use padlock key, e just waka enter spiritual prison like Rambo and say “everybody, come out!”

E come talk say Osugbo and Ogboni no get level for Yoruba monarchy — chai! E be like say Baba don unsubscribe from ancestral WhatsApp group. 😭

“Even after my death…” — Oga no worry, e go still dey appear for dream dey shout “NO TO RITUALS!” like Netflix series!

Oluwo dey run monarchy like modern CEO: no shrine, no sacrifice, no secret handshake, just vibes and public declarations. 😅

This one no be Oba, na Oba with Bluetooth connection to heaven, e dey download policy from above!

Na so dem go soon change town name from Iwo to "Iwo-llywood" — because the drama no dey ever end!

Las las, even Sango go dey confused say, “Who off my fire for that side?” 🔥🤣

Hahahahahahahaha hahaha.....guy you no well!!!
The matter go shock Sango 🤣🤣🤣🤣

DeepSight:
When you circle the Kaaba you dont see that as a form of Idol worship?
What were the Satanic verses about?

The Kaabah is only a direction and a sign of unity.
Have you ever seen a Muslim calling on the Kaabah like "Oh Kaabah save me"?

Should I tell you the true definition of idol worship?
Calling upon a mortal like you and shouting "Jesus Christ" in times of distress.

Softmirror:
There is no justification for killing any innocent person.

illicit

adamkkk

247man

Omonigeriarere

DeepSight

I'm shocked, this is how the awujale is buried?
Wow!

beardedboy:
The Kaabah is only a direction and a sign of unity.
Have you ever seen a Muslim calling on the Kaabah like "Oh Kaabah save me"?

I disagree. That black stone in the corner is objectified and kissed and venerated. And at best its a meteorite.

Should I tell you the true definition of idol worship?
Calling upon a mortal like you and shouting "Jesus Christ" in times of distress.

I agree.
With the exception that many people only say it as a habitual exclamation, the way even an atheist can shout "Oh my God!"

DeepSight:
I disagree. That black stone in the corner is objectified and kissed and venerated. And at best its a meteorite.
I agree.
With the exception that many people only say it as a habitual exclamation, the way even an atheist can shout "Oh my God!"

So it's no more the Kaabah but the black stone that is worshipped?
Mind you only a small percentage of pilgrims actually get to touch the black stone. And touching it adds no significance to the validynof the pilgrimage.

What else would you call an idol? The prayer mat?

No, Christians who call on Jesus do not do so as an act of exclamation only. They do it because they're convinced he has power to save them. Do you not "cover" your cars, food, homes and everything with the "mighty" blood of Jesus.

Please find another lie.

Seriously if we Africans want to move forward, a lot of fetish and unreasonable traditions need to go with it.

onuman:
Problem is that the SS and SE parts of Nigeria that don't attach importance to religious rituals are tied up with other ritualistic regions in the deep poo of one Nigeria.

That shows that you do not have the faintest idea of religious rituals in the SS and SE. Please make a good research and revert.

People tend to think that culture and traditions are stagnant and must be adhered to. These rites, cultures and traditions have always been fluid. All the culture, rites and traditions were started at one time in our history by events or by the declaration of the people or the King and a lot more of these traditions have also been changed or abandoned over the centuries.

It would be naive to even assume that all the oro rites, egungun and other traditional rites have remained exactly the same rites as it was done hundreds of years ago.

Ijebuland most famous culture. tradition etc can arguably be said to be the Ojude-Oba festival but it started as just a courtesy visit by muslim leaders to the first awujale during the ileya (eid-al-adha) festival. Subsequently all leading families including the traditionalists also joined in visiting the Oba during the festival, now it is the whole world regardless of religious affiliation that pays homage to the oba. Many dont even know what it is all about, just the pomp and pageantry is enough for them and even if you tell them the religious significance most would not care. So is Ojude oba traditional or religious? can a xtian Awujale decree that no one should visit him during this period because he does not celebrate the festival.

Emperor Hirohito of Japan had one of the most ancient and sacred stools in the world with all the attendant rites and rituals but defeat and modernity caught up with their culture and hardly does anyone in Japan hold him with 1% of such honour and regard. Can anyone say that the Japanese people were worse off for it. I doubt that. And even long before the emperor lost his status, the King also destroyed the samurai culture of Japanese that has been in existence for thousands of years because the culture could no longer be permitted in a modern world.

Most times people talking about culture this, culture that have not studied culture and cultures enough to know what it really is and how it shapes society and society also shapes culture. That is why we talk about people and culture, people create cultures for themselves and they also change cultures for themselves.

Ipobfraud:
What you people don't understand is that king is a traditional post not an occult post. Yoruba might be an idol worshipers full time in the past but not now. To be a Yoruba king, the prerequisite is not that you must be an idol worshiper. Idol worshippers claiming yoruba kings stool is idol stool are mistaken. King will be buried base on his religion, if he’s idol worshiper he can be bury in their way, if he’s a Muslim or Christian he should be bury according to his religion rite. Customizing yoruba king as idol king cannot work in this era, Yoruba are mainly Christian and Muslim, why will the minority idol worshippers be dictating how king will be bury.

Easy there with the semantics!

I don't think there's anywhere in my post where I used the word "occult". There's a vivid difference between tradition and occult. You don't have to be a traditionalist to be an occult.

My point is that all these 21st century kings who want to govern with "Biblical or Quranic injunctions" are just creating needless confusion. For you to accept being chosen as the king, it means you're directly/indirectly agreeing to be the custodian of the town's traditional & customary practices (even if it's against your faith). Anything other than that is tantamount to foolery or delusion grandeur.

PS- the great Aare Onakakanfo (Obadoke Latoosa) was a muslim and he never allowed his faith to impede him in discharging his duties as "Aare Onakakanfo). Oluwo and his fellow Yahoo kings should shut up already!

Softmirror:
Someone was beaten to death a few weeks ago, another just three days ago by Masquerade. That is why our culture and tradition must be respected for it's uniqueness.

Should revelations about adulganus family members be revealed on their killings too?
All religions have their bad side. The issue of that king and their culture that some fanatics desecrated is a bad omen.

beardedboy:
So it's no more the Kaabah but the black stone that is worshipped?

You know very well that meteorite is inserted in the corner of the Kaaba.

Mind you only a small percentage of pilgrims actually get to touch the black stone. And touching it adds no significance to the validynof the pilgrimage.

What else would you call an idol? The prayer mat?

Not the prayer mat.
You cant deny they venerate the meteorite
As Catholics do for statues of Jesus and Mary.

No, Christians who call on Jesus do not do so as an act of exclamation only. They do it because they're convinced he has power to save them. Do you not "cover" your cars, food, homes and everything with the "mighty" blood of Jesus.

Please find another lie.

Yes you are right they do, I was exempting those who use it as an exclamation.
PS: I am not a Christian.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

ravensckar:
Easy there with the semantics!

I don't think there's anywhere in my post where I used the word "occult". There's a vivid difference between tradition and occult. You don't have to be a traditionalist to be an occult.

My point is that all these 21st century kings who want to govern with "Biblical or Quranic injunctions" are just creating needless confusion. For you to accept being chosen as the king, it means you're directly/indirectly agreeing to be the custodian of the town's traditional & customary practices (even if it's against your faith). Anything other than that is tantamount to foolery or delusion grandeur.

PS- the great Aare Onakakanfo (Obadoke Latoosa) was a muslim and he never allowed his faith to impede him in discharging his duties as "Aare Onakakanfo). Oluwo and his fellow Yahoo kings should shut up already!

GBAM!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

rabzy:
People tend to think that culture and traditions are stagnant and must be adhered to. These rites, cultures and traditions have always been fluid. All the culture, rites and traditions were started at one time in our history by events or by the declaration of the people or the King and a lot more of these traditions have also been changed or abandoned over the centuries.

It would be naive to even assume that all the oro rites, egungun and other traditional rites have remained exactly the same rites as it was done hundreds of years ago.

Ijebuland most famous culture. tradition etc can arguably be said to be the Ojude-Oba festival but it started as just a courtesy visit by muslim leaders to the first awujale during the ileya (eid-al-adha) festival. Subsequently all leading families including the traditionalists also joined in visiting the Oba during the festival, now it is the whole world regardless of religious affiliation that pays homage to the oba. Many dont even know what it is all about, just the pomp and pageantry is enough for them and even if you tell them the religious significance most would not care. So is Ojude oba traditional or religious? can a xtian Awujale decree that no one should visit him during this period because he does not celebrate the festival.

Emperor Hirohito of Japan had one of the most ancient and sacred stools in the world with all the attendant rites and rituals but defeat and modernity caught up with their culture and hardly does anyone in Japan hold him with 1% of such honour and regard. Can anyone say that the Japanese people were worse off for it. I doubt that. And even long before the emperor lost his status, the King also destroyed the samurai culture of Japanese that has been in existence for thousands of years because the culture could no longer be permitted in a modern world.

Most times people talking about culture this, culture that have not studied culture and cultures enough to know what it really is and how it shapes society and society also shapes culture. That is why we talk about people and culture, people create cultures for themselves and they also change cultures for themselves.

Thank you for this sensible, nuanced and beautiful take.

Beardedboy, Softmirror, come and learn.

DeepSight:
Thank you for this sensible, nuanced and beautiful take.

Beardedboy, Softmirror, come and learn.

He hasn't said anything new. My single point is very straightforward. Any cultural practice in which life of innocent persons will be used as rituals has no justification whatsoever. Mean while fluidity can actually mean dilution.

DeepSight:
Let me extract something from Google -
The veneration of the Virgin Mary in Catholicism is a complex topic with roots in both Christian theology and the broader cultural and religious environment of the ancient world. While Catholic teaching officially distinguishes between the worship of God (latria) and the veneration of Mary and the saints (hyperdulia), some scholars and critics point to significant parallels between the devotion to Mary and the pre-Christian worship of pagan goddesses. This perspective, often called syncretism, argues that the early Church assimilated existing pagan beliefs and practices into its own emerging traditions.

The Role of Syncretism and Ancient Goddesses
As Christianity spread, especially throughout the Roman Empire, it encountered a world deeply entrenched in the worship of female deities. These goddesses were often associated with powerful and relatable concepts, such as motherhood, fertility, protection, and wisdom. For a newly converted population, the figure of Mary may have provided a familiar and comforting female divine presence that could be easily integrated into their existing spiritual framework.

Scholars have drawn numerous parallels between the Virgin Mary and ancient goddesses, including:

Isis: The Egyptian goddess Isis was widely revered throughout the Roman Empire as a mother goddess and a compassionate savior. Depictions of Isis nursing her divine son, Horus, are strikingly similar to the Madonna and Child iconography that became central to Christian art.

Cybele: The Great Mother, or Magna Mater, Cybele was a powerful, chaste goddess whose worship included rituals of initiation and the veneration of a divine son. She was a prominent figure in Asia Minor, and her cult's themes of a chaste mother goddess and a focus on salvation may have influenced early Mariology.

Diana/Artemis: These goddesses of chastity, the moon, and childbirth were often referred to as "virgin." This term, in its pre-Christian context, did not necessarily mean sexual inexperience but rather a woman who was "one-in-herself" and not subject to a man. This concept of powerful, autonomous virginity resonates with the development of Mary's perpetual virginity in Catholic doctrine.

Athena: The Greek goddess Athena, known for her wisdom and for being a divine virgin, shares some surprising similarities with Mary. Both were associated with a kind of divine, non-sexual motherhood and were revered as protectors of cities.

Other Fertility Goddesses: Across various cultures, goddesses like the Aztec goddess Tonantzin (Our Sacred Mother) and the Andean goddess Pachamama (Mother Earth) were worshipped as figures of fertility and protection. When missionaries introduced the Virgin Mary to these regions, local traditions often merged with Marian devotion, leading to syncretic figures like the Virgin of Guadalupe.


The Theological Development of Marian Veneration
While the cultural context of syncretism is a key element, the veneration of Mary also has a clear theological history within the Church itself.

Early Christianity (1st-3rd centuries): The New Testament provides a foundation for Mary's special role, particularly in the Gospel of Luke, but there is little evidence of a widespread "cult" of Mary. Early Christian writers like Justin Martyr and Irenaeus saw Mary as the "New Eve," whose obedience reversed the disobedience of the first Eve.

The Council of Ephesus (431 CE): A major turning point came with the Council of Ephesus, which formally declared Mary as the Theotokos (Greek for "God-bearer" or "Mother of God" ). This title, which affirmed the full divinity of Jesus from the moment of his conception, was a crucial theological development. It elevated Mary's status and provided a strong impetus for her veneration, as she was now seen as the mother of God himself.

The Middle Ages: Marian devotion flourished in the Middle Ages. Hymns, prayers, and cathedrals dedicated to "Our Lady" became widespread. Theologians like Bernard of Clairvaux promoted her role as a compassionate intercessor and a mediatrix between humanity and God.

Modern Dogmas: Later centuries saw the formalization of doctrines that further elevated Mary, such as the Immaculate Conception (1854), which states that Mary was conceived without original sin, and the Assumption (1950), which holds that she was taken, body and soul, into heaven.

Conclusion
The question of the "pagan origins" of Marian veneration is not a simple one. The Catholic Church has always insisted that its veneration of Mary is rooted in biblical and theological teachings, distinguishing it from the worship of a deity. However, historical and anthropological evidence suggests that the growth of Marian devotion was significantly shaped by the religious landscape of the ancient world. The figure of Mary may have provided a crucial link for new converts, allowing them to transfer their deep-seated devotion to female divine figures to a person central to the Christian story, leading to a unique synthesis of Christian theology and pre-Christian cultural practices.

I have emboldened some key words for you above. You can clearly see that throught the piece the word "may" keep popping up. This shows that there is no definitive linkk between the veneration/worship of Mary and pagan cultures and beliefs. The parts I bolded in red shows that the veneration of Mary was a purely Catholic affair devoid of any pagan influence. In fact, the veneration of Mary stemmed out of the need to protect the divinity of Jesus in the early 2-3 centruries. THere was docietian theologies that claimed that Mary only gave birth to the human Jesus and thus Jesus was not God in any form but was simply a man who got inspired by God. This belief is also found in Islam. The veneration of Mary as bearer of God was a direct response to that heretical belief. It had nothing to do with pagan goddesses or pagan beliefs. I can also wake up and say since Yorubas have female goddesses like Moremi and Oya that they worship, the worship of Mary was inspired by Oya worship among Yoruba Catholics. You and I know that's a blatant lie!

Kukutente23:
I have emboldened some key words for you above. You can clearly see that throught the piece the word "may" keep popping up. This shows that there is no definitive linkk between the veneration/worship of Mary and pagan cultures and beliefs. The parts I bolded in red shows that the veneration of Mary was a purely Catholic affair devoid of any pagan influence. In fact, the veneration of Mary stemmed out of the need to protect the divinity of Jesus in the early 2-3 centruries. THere was docietian theologies that claimed that Mary only gave birth to the human Jesus and thus Jesus was not God in any form but was simply a man who got inspired by God. This belief is also found in Islam. The veneration of Mary as bearer of God was a direct response to that heretical belief. It had nothing to do with pagan goddesses or pagan beliefs. I can also wake up and say since Yorubas have female goddesses like Moremi and Oya that they worship, the worship of Mary was inspired by Oya worship among Yoruba Catholics. You and I know that's a blatant lie!

I understand what you are saying, nonetheless the truth is that in the early formation of Catholicism there was signiticant syncretism. Much was borrowed or mixed from existing pagan beliefs. No one can deny this.

The very word "Easter" for example is a direct translation of the word "Astarte" - a pagan fertility goddess. December 25th was chosen for Christmas for similar reasons, it was the Saturnalia around that week. The Doctrine of the Trinity also mirrored many ancient triunes as far back as Horus Osiris and Isis. In this, let me tell you that your example of Yorubas having goddesses does not fly because in the Egyptian triad, it is specific that Isis is the mother of Horus and wife of Osiris. So this mirrors Mary as Mother of Jesus. I dont want to write that the Father also came to knnaackk her to make it possible.

Its quite undeniable that there were mixtures inorder to smoothen the acceptance of the new religion.

DeepSight:
Thank you for this sensible, nuanced and beautiful take.
Beardedb*y, S*ftmirror, come and learn.

The post actually buttresses my points. Ponder you'll see.

beardedboy:
The post actually buttresses my points. Ponder you'll see.

Be specific, please. Asking me to "ponder" is escapist.

DeepSight:
Be specific, please. Asking me to "ponder" is escapist.

No, I will not spoonfeed you.
Clue: The post says culture is dynamic.

beardedboy:
No, I will not spoonfeed you.
Clue: The post says culture is dynamic.

Lol. You are being escapist. Dynamism was my point from the beginning. I said cultures evolve. This means there is no reason to assume they will be murdering anyone.

DeepSight:
I understand what you are saying, nonetheless the truth is that in the early formation of Catholicism there was signiticant syncretism. Much was borrowed or mixed from existing pagan beliefs. No one can deny this.

The very word "Easter" for example is a direct translation of the word "Astarte" - a pagan fertility goddess. December 25th was chosen for Christmas for similar reasons, it was the Saturnalia around that week. The Doctrine of the Trinity also mirrored many ancient triunes as far back as Horus Osiris and Isis. In this, let me tell you that your example of Yorubas having goddesses does not fly because in the Egyptian triad, it is specific that Isis is the mother of Horus and wife of Osiris. So this mirrors Mary as Mother of Jesus. I dont want to write that the Father also came to knnaackk her to make it possible.

Its quite undeniable that there were mixtures inorder to smoothen the acceptance of the new religion.

There is no such thing. There was no borrowing of any pagan beliefs or tradition. That there are similarities does not mean one borrowed from the other. Sango is god of thunder in Yoruba. It has a contemporary in Amadioha in Igbo religion. The Greeks have Zeus to match that while Egypt has Seth and Chinese have Leigong. Are you implying all copied one another to arrive at their gods?
Catholicism grew out of many debates about doctrines and dogmas which evolved based on what the council percieved to be heretic and what was divine.

Easter had nothing to do with Astarte. December 25 was not chosen for pagan influence. You have been overly deceived by Jehovah witnesses. December 25 was chosen cause that was the day calculated as the winter solstice when the sun spends the longest in the day and Jesus was referred in the Bible as the sun of Righteousness. It has nothing to do with paganism.
How does Isis mirror Mary? It makes absolutely no sense. The Bible which is the official text of Christians does not attribute any god-like status to Mary. The attribution in Catholicism was borne out of dogmatic need not biblical foundation. Yet Mary was of biblical foundation. So how can Mary have a relationship with Isis? I hope you understand what Egypt and their gods connote in Christian doctrine. It is laughable to reduce Mary to a contemporary of an Egyptian goddess. What crass ignorance!!