₦airaland Forum

Janosky:
Did Paul say that?

Definitely not.
Hebrew 1:2, Paul wrote:
"God created the Universe" NOT his son.

Oga, go write your own Bible.
Stop deceiving yourself .

Jesus used this expression:
" the beginning of Creation" @ Mark 10:6,@ Mark 13:19 ,@ Revelation 3:14 to prove his Father Yahweh is the Creator/the Source @ Mark 10:6,@Mark 13:19 ,@ Revelation 3:14.

Therefore, Jesus is the beginning of Creation.

(just as Paul proved God created the Universe).

Oga, you have more knowledge than Jesus the beginning of the creation by God?
Definitely not.

Janosky:
Is Greek word for SOURCE @ Revelation 3:14?
Definitely not.

@ Mark 10:6 "the beginning of creation" ,according to Emusan meaning 'the Source of creation?'
Definitely not.
@ Mark 13:19,"the beginning of creation" ,according to Emusan meaning 'the Source of creation?'
Definitely not.
@ Mark 1:1,
@Mark 1:1, "the beginning of the gospel" ,according to Emusan meaning 'the Source/ruler/authority of the gospel?'
Definitely not.

@ Revelation 3:14,"the beginning of creation" ,according to Emusan meaning 'the Source/ruler/authority of creation?'
Definitely not.


Emusan, stop deceiving yourself

Emusan:
Yes! Paul said that.

"God created the universe"

So answer my question, what did the Son do when God was creating the Universe?

Why are you dodging this question since?

Emusan:
You have your own Bible through Watchtower

That's why I showed you the meaning of arché

ORIGIN/SOURCE

Jesus is the ORIGIN/SOURCE of ALL CREATION.

Believer wey pretend as if Hebrew 1:2 is not in his Bible.

"He is the beginning of God's creation, Job 40:19 & Revelation 3:14.
The same statement,the same context.
Same meaning-Job 40:19 & Revelation 3:14 refers to Creatures . Jesus is a creature .
Trinity doctrine is man made invention.

if you get mind put Originator at Job 40:19.
KJV ,INT,NAS,your Trinitarian Bible translations didn't put "Source" @ Revelation 3:14.

Janosky:
"God created the universe NOT his son,Paul said.
Oga, continue to pretend you don't understand that statement.
Stop deceiving yourself.

Believer wey pretend as if Hebrew 1:2 is not in his Bible.

"He is the beginning of God's creation, Job 40:19 & Revelation 3:14.
The same statement,the same context.
Same meaning-Job 40:19 & Revelation 3:14 refers to Creatures . Jesus is a creature

Trinity doctrine is man made invention.

if you get mind put Originator at Job 40:19.
KJV ,INT,NAS,your Trinitarian Bible translations didn't put "Source" @ Revelation 3:14.

Emusan:
And you're still dodging the question.

What was the Son doing when God is creating the Universe?

Jesus is the Creator because "All things came into existence through him(Jesus), and apart from him not even one thing came into existence." - John 1:3 NWT

Even NWT perverted translation couldn't touch this verse because the statement is too glaring to temper with.

Jesus is your Creator



I've said, Heb 1:2 is also a confirmation that Jesus is the Creator I never denied it.

because Heb 1:2 says the UNIVERSE came into existence THROUGH JESUS.


This shows that you're just lying.

Jesus is the ORIGIN/SOURCE of all CREATIONS.

Supported by Heb 1:2 & John 1:3[sub]
Do you need more Trinitarians translations?

John 1:3. NLT,Trinitarian translation.
"God CREATED EVERYTHING through him (Jesus)."

Hebrew 1:2,
" God CREATED the universe NOT his son Jesus"

The Greek word DIA (THROUGH) meaning Instrumentality.

"THROUGH" is the word you are giving a very wrong meaning to deceive yourself.
Emusan stop deceiving yourself.

Emusan:
Still couldn't refute the meaning of Arché with any screenshot

Proof that Arché doesn't mean ORIGIN first, nobody asked you to jump like kangaroo

Olodo Job was written in different language and where did Job talks about ORIGIN?

Emusan:
Many translator put Rev 3:14 this way:

CSB: “Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: Thus says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God’s creation

CEB: “Write this to the angel of the church in Laodicea: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

CJB: “To the angel of the Messianic Community in Laodicea, write: ‘Here is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Ruler of God’s creation:

CEV: This is what you must write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: I am the one called Amen! I am the faithful and true witness and the source of God's creation. Listen to what I say.

GW: “To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God’s creation, says:

GNT: “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: “This is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the origin of all that God has created.

Do you need more Trinitarians translations?

Janosky:
John 1:3. NLT,Trinitarian translation.
"God CREATED EVERYTHING through him (Jesus)."

Hebrew 1:2,
" God CREATED the universe NOT his son Jesus"

The Greek word DIA (THROUGH) meaning Instrumentality.

"THROUGH" is the word you are giving a very wrong meaning to deceive yourself.
Emusan stop deceiving yourself.

Janosky:
Arkhe @ Genesis 1:1 @ Job 40:19, @ Revelation 3;14, @Mark 13:19, @Mark 10:6.@ Mark 1:1.,Greek 746 Arkhe is Beginning NOT Originator.

Those who don't love the Bible truth espoused in the biblehub screenshot of the Greek word for word translation of Revelation 3:14.

Oga,stop deceiving yourself.

Gabrielshow24:
Wait, let's say we give you a benefit of a doubt🤔 that Jesus was created, how then did your god become an Eternal Father when his Son is apparently not Eternal🤕? Or don't you know that your Fatherhood is as old as your Son🤨?

Also, do you care to explain how your god, supposedly ’Love’, didn't have someone to love eternally? 🤨 Don't you think, you have made your god, a dependent being? What difference is this your god to Allah👀?

Do you also care to explain how God ’created’ before the existence of time? And if Jesus was ’created’ before time don't you think the word ’created’ is logically insufficient and unsuitable? It seems you don't have an handle on the exasperating farrago of absurdities you intentionally posit just to keep up this charade of a doctrine🤧.

Well, you can take a bold step and answer these questions or as usual, ’run away!’

Truthseeker10:
So do you mean that the true God is not an eternal Father to you?

Gabrielshow24:
Tell us how your god is an Eternal Father? When his love is completely dependent.🥱

As you do so, you are free to draw as many straws as possible, given that's your only profession🤧.

Truthseeker10:
Explain how Jesus is an eternal father according to Isaiah 9:6 using your analogy of what eternal father would mean.

Gabrielshow24:
Maybe you should have taken the rest of scripture into account before making such a response.

As long as we, the sons of God, live in Him(Jesus) having Eternal life then he is our Eternal Father or to be specific as Isaiah puts it, Everlasting Father! —This implies a beginning🤨 but it's doesn't have an end.

While you are desperately trying to apply/conflate ’Eternal’ to/with ’Everlasting’ but the two has slight differences which reveal your mistake.

Now once more, tell me how your god is an eternal Father? note: ’not an Everlasting Father’

Emusan:
Which means Jesus was there and played critical role when UNIVERSE was being created.

Jesus is the Creator then.

Truthseeker10:
Below is your statement in bold.

"Wait, let's say we give you a benefit of a doubt🤔 that Jesus was created, how then did your god become an Eternal Father when his Son is apparently not Eternal🤕? Or don't you know that your Fatherhood is as old as your Son🤨?"

Below is Isaiah 9:6 in other versions of the bible.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Contemporary English Version
A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace

Good News Translation
A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."

Do you have an issue with the above translations?

Truthseeker10:
Below is your statement in bold.

"Wait, let's say we give you a benefit of a doubt🤔 that Jesus was created, how then did your god become an Eternal Father when his Son is apparently not Eternal🤕? Or don't you know that your Fatherhood is as old as your Son🤨?"

Below is Isaiah 9:6 in other versions of the bible.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Contemporary English Version
A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace

Good News Translation
A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."

Do you have an issue with the above translations?

Gabrielshow24:
Use the translations at your disposal to substantiate your point. We are still waiting 🤨🥱

Janosky:

@ Isaiah 9:6,Trinitarians want "he WIll be called .." to mean what they prefer.

Truthseeker10:
My point is in your questions below.

"Wait, let's say we give you a benefit of a doubt🤔 that Jesus was created, how then did your god become an Eternal Father when his Son is apparently not Eternal🤕? Or don't you know that your Fatherhood is as old as your Son🤨?"

Below is Isaiah 9:6 in other versions of the bible.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Contemporary English Version
A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace

Good News Translation
A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."

Truthseeker10:
Don't mind the guy. He has shot himself in the foot with those his questions about "Eternal Father".

Gabrielshow24:
Do you believe the Son or ArchAngel Michael to be the Eternal Father👀?

Irrespective of your belief, I have explained how this rebuttal of your's is moot and offers nothing substantial, mind you Christ is the eternal son of God. Once again, how did your god become an eternal Father? When his son is obviously not ’eternal’🤧.

It seems in your bid to untangle yourself from the failures of your doctrinal system you have made a case for why Jesus is Eternal😊(hath no beginning and no end) and consequently whatever your fellow, Janosky, opined is totally wrong!

Pls, we are waiting, tell us Elder Michael😁.

Emusan:
Jesus created Micheal your god

Emusan:
You haven't proved that Arché isn't ORIGIN

Very funny reason why you couldn't provide the same screenshot from Biblehub

Well let me help you.

So, Rev 3:14 Jesus is the ORIGIN/ SOURCE of all CREATIONS.

Jesus is the Arkhe (Greek746 & Greek 1078) "Beginning ,Origin of the creation by God.

Greek 747 Originator is NOT @ Revelation 3:14,Jesus is NOT originator...

Revelation 3:14 is NOT Acts 5:31,Hebrew 2:10.
Screenshot evidence.

Emusan, stop deceiving yourself.

Truthseeker10:
You are funny.

Kindly show me a verse in the bible where "eternal father" is used as a title aside from Isaiah 9:6.

Please use Isaiah 9:6 to answer your questions below if Jesus is your "god"?²

"Wait, let's say we give you a benefit of a doubt🤔 that Jesus was created, how then did your god become an Eternal Father when his Son is apparently not Eternal🤕? Or don't you know that your Fatherhood is as old as your Son🤨?"

Below is Isaiah 9:6 in other versions of the bible.

New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Contemporary English Version
A child has been born for us. We have been given a son who will be our ruler. His names will be Wonderful Advisor and Mighty God, Eternal Father and Prince of Peace

Good News Translation
A child is born to us! A son is given to us! And he will be our ruler. He will be called, "Wonderful Counselor," "Mighty God," "Eternal Father," "Prince of Peace."

Gabrielshow24:
Do you believe Jesus is the Eternal Father? 🤨

Truthseeker10:
What does Isaiah 9:6 say?

Kindly answer your questions below using Isaiah 9:6 since your question implies that there can be no eternal Fatherhood without an eternal son.

how then did your god become an Eternal Father when his Son is apparently not Eternal🤕? Or don't you know that your Fatherhood is as old as your Son🤨?"

I won't Answer your questions because I never said or implied them.

Gabrielshow24:
Maybe you should have taken the rest of scripture into account before making such a response.

As long as we, the sons of God, live in Him(Jesus) having Eternal life then he is our Eternal Father or to be specific as Isaiah puts it, Everlasting Father! —This implies a beginning🤨 but it's doesn't have an end.

While you are desperately trying to apply/conflate ’Eternal’ to/with ’Everlasting’ but the two has slight differences which reveal your mistake.

Now once more, tell me how your god is an eternal Father? note: ’not an Everlasting Father’

Gabrielshow24:
And I replied you with
An Eternal Fatherhood necessitates an Eternal Son! It's not possible. You can't be a Father without a Son talkless of being an Eternal Father!

Pls, tell us how your god became an Eternal Father!

I know you can't answer those questions 😂. They go against your doctrine 🤧. You dare not call Jesus, Eternal Father 😅. To you, he is just Archangel Michael 🤕.

Truthseeker10:
1)using your analogy above, So who is The son that Jesus is an "Eternal Father" to in response to your questions below?

how then did your god become an Eternal Father when his Son is apparently not Eternal🤕? Or don't you know that your Fatherhood is as old as your Son🤨?"



2)Where does the Bible or me refer to the father of Jesus as an "Eternal Father"? If you answer this question, I would answer your question.

Gabrielshow24:
The phrase ’Avi'ad’ can mean ’source or possessor of Eternity’ not literally Father in a literal sense. Good try, but you’re mixing categories. When Scripture calls God the Father, ‘Father,’ it refers to His eternal relationship to the Son. When Isaiah 9:6 calls the Messiah ‘Everlasting Father,’ it means He is like a father to His people — the source and sustainer of their eternal life👌. That’s not an ontological Father-Son relationship within the Godhead, but a metaphor for His role toward us.

Also, My question concerned ’God the Father’ or your version of Him 🤕. Isaiah 9:6 speaks of the Messiah, in your case, Archangel Michael😅. You’re definitely conflating categories. Even if Jesus is called ‘Everlasting Father’ in a metaphorical sense, that does nothing to answer how your ’god’ is an eternal Father without an eternal Son.

So instead of ducking behind a verse you don’t believe in literally, answer the question: how is your God an eternal Father if there was a time he had no Son? That’s still on the table.😮‍💨

We both know, you do not consider Jesus to be an Eternal Father in any sense😂. If you take Isaiah 9:6 literally to counter me, congratulations — you’ve just admitted Jesus is the ‘Everlasting Father.’ That’s not your doctrine at all. Which is it?😂😂😂 You don’t believe Jesus is the Everlasting Father, yet you’re citing Isaiah 9:6 as if you do😵‍💫. You are borrowing a verse you don’t affirm to dodge the question🤨. If you reject the verse’s plain meaning for your theology, you can’t wield it as a weapon to undermine mine.😂

For the second question, You don't need to affirm such. This is exactly what I expected — instead of answering how your God is an eternal Father without an eternal Son, you dodge by asking for a verse that uses your own phrasing. it’s your typical evasion tactic😅... reminds me of airbenders in ATLA and king bumi's speech: ’evade and avoid’😂😂😂.

By the way, the Bible consistently calls God ‘the Father.’ If He is eternally the Father, then by definition His Son must also be eternal🤔. That’s my point. The issue isn’t whether the exact phrase ‘Eternal Father’ is printed; the issue is the logic of Fatherhood itself. You can’t be eternally a Father unless your Son is also eternal.🤷 You, yourself, quoted Isaiah 9:6 where the Messiah is called ‘Everlasting Father😳.’ Yet you don’t believe Jesus is literally the Everlasting Father. So you don’t even stand on that verse. Why use a scripture you reject to dodge my question?

Stop stalling — the question still stands: how is your God an eternal Father if His Son is not eternal? If you can’t answer, just admit it instead of deflecting.

Gabrielshow24:
Do you believe Jesus is the Eternal Father? 🤨

As for [2] you can check my earlier reply.
Now, to the crux of the matter. How is your god an Eternal Father when his Son is not Eternal?

Janosky:
Isaiah 9:6,New American Standard Bible
For a Child will be born to us, a Son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; "And His name will be called..... Eternal Father"

Oga,do you agree with Ephesians 4:6, that Yahweh the God Almighty is the "Father of ALL?"
Therefore ,do you agree that Yahweh is the Eternal Father of Jesus christ?

Oga,do you agree with Matthew 27:46,50 that Jesus Christ tasted death?
Is a being who died @ Matthew 27:46,50 for 3 days Eternal to you @ that moment?

Let's address Isaiah 9:6 "the son Jesus will be called " Eternal Father".
The important question is :
When is Jesus the son will be called " Eternal Father" ?
Jesus will be Eternal Father to which people?
6 questions for your attention ,pls.
Thanks.

Truthseeker10:
You are very funny. You've explained what "eternal father" is in Isaiah 9:6 to mean mankind getting everlasting life through Jesus. So tell me why I should have a problem with that.

You keep saying my God is an "Eternal Father". Kindly show me where the bible or me refer to the Father of Jesus as "Eternal Father" to mean he always had a son. Simple task.

Gabrielshow24:
I’ve already answered that — you can re-read the previous write-up where I explained Isaiah 9:6 and the difference between ‘Everlasting Father’ (Messiah’s fatherly care of His people) and ‘Eternal Father’ (ontological Fatherhood requiring an eternal Son).🤔

What you’ve now done is far more revealing: instead of answering how your God can be an eternal Father without an eternal Son, you’ve decided to deny that He is an eternal Father at all. 😳🤨

In other words, to escape the problem you’ve made your god a non-Father until creation or a non-Father until some point in time — which makes him mutable and dependent🤕. A God who ‘becomes’ Father is not eternal or self-sufficient😮‍💨.

That’s exactly my point. By your own words, your god wasn’t and isn’t eternally Father😂, which collapses your theology🤤. Meanwhile, the Bible calls God ‘Father’ from eternity (Ephesians 3:14-15; John 17:24), and calls the Son ‘eternal’ (Micah 5:2; John 1:1-3). The Trinitarian christian position explains both. Yours does not👀.

So instead of dodging with semantics, answer the question you’ve been avoiding: how is your god a Father at all before creation, and to whom? If you can’t, you’ve conceded my point😁.

Once again, thanks for showing everyone that the JW god is insufficient! What a god!😂

Everyone😅: Emusan, Dtruthspeaker, stillDtruth, Ken4christ, tctrills, TenQ, julia25, archoladey, Courz, steep. Take a look at this. Wetin we no go hear from JW. I have saved it, since he has implied his god wasn't and isn't an Eternal Father😂👌.