₦airaland Forum

lawani:
You are not making sense. So if I learn say nuclear physics on my own, it can only be because of poverty? That is stupidity. I was drawn to Ifa, was curious about it and learnt it on my own starting from 2012

Physics totally differs from spirituality!
Ifa is just one out of thousands of spirits each has a lineage that they had a covenant with the ancestors so if you are not from that lineage ifá won't call you and learning ifá becomes impossible for you.😟

MaxInDHouse:
Physics totally differs from spirituality!
Ifa is just one out of thousands of spirits each has a lineage that they had a covenant with the ancestors so if you are not from that lineage ifá won't call you and learning ifá becomes impossible for you.😟

While there are lineages, anybody is free to learn IFA just like you are free to study medicine or architecture etc. You are free to learn carpentry. Nobody is barred from being an Awo because they are not from the right lineage. Anybody can learn and start their own lineage

lawani:
While there are lineages, anybody is free to learn IFA just like you are free to study medicine or architecture etc. You are free to learn carpentry. Nobody is barred from being an Awo because they are not from the right lineage. Anybody can learn and start their own lineage.

The highlighted could be true if the one learning wish to become a worshiper of ifá on his or her own but to become a medium for ifá ọmọ that's a LIE!🙂

Lucifyre:
You know what objective means right?! Cause I doubt you do.

For instance, if I tell you, "I dreamed last night that I was flying", you cannot falsify it, demonstrate it or repeat it. Yet it is objectively true that I had that dream. Science confirms humans dream, but the specific content is not verifiable by your standard. By your rule , my claim would be ""not true " which is absurd.


If you did you'd know the above is a clear subjective experience. You dreamt you were flying, did everybody else also experience your dream - that you were indeed flying? Clearly no. An example of an "objective" experience that reflects "objective reality" would be the claim "humans dream" or "humans eat", the kind of food they like to eat or whatever kind of dreams they have are subjective experiences. And the properties of objective truth are as stated - no less. Again pls check the meaning of objective as it differentiates from subjective. Absolutely no claim can be "objectively true" without those properties.

You're confusing objectivity with verifiability. When I said "It is objectively true that I had that dream", I was making a claim about an event in the world, that a specific mental experience occurred in my brain at a specific time, and that is an objective fact like ",It rained yesterday"

The content of my dream is subjective (I never denied that) and not verifiable by others. But the occurrence of the dream, the fact that I experienced it, is as objective as any biological process. I never claimed the flying was physically real. I said the experience was real. That is the subtle but crucial distinction you missed

But who is to say dream content has no connection with objective reality, making them "real" What you dismiss as "subjective" may not be so . A wet dream, for instance, has a biological cause, buildup of sexual tension, and the brain creates a movie which triggers physiological processes to dissipate that energy .

You created confusion at the beginning by not clearly articulating your thought, and now shifting the goalpost after you logic was faulted . You started by saying "any claim or proposition"", without specifying, must be objectively proven to pass truth. That was the reason I brought up dreams, love and consciousness, which are regarded as truth even though not testable according to your strict standard. By your reasoning, one should doubt their own dreams, even their own thoughts since they cannot be measured or falsified. In other words, my thoughts, your thoughts, would not be true by your standard

Abraham Lincoln dreamt of his assassination, and it happened the way he dreamt it. When he shared the dream, it was dismissed as mere fantasy, until it became reality. But to you the dream content is not truth despite the fact the dream has become reality.

What you're insisting on is scientism: the claim that all truth can only be known through the scientific method. Thiat is incorrect because there are alternative methods for knowing truth. Scientists hardly use the word "truth" because they know science deals with provisional models that survive testing, not capital -T Truth. Falsifiability is a tool for weeding out bad theories, not a definition of what is real

So no, your narrow standard does not get to dismiss love, dreams consciousness, or my inner experience as untrue. You are the one who confused a useful method with the nature of reality itself. Please update your epistemology.

MaxInDHouse:
The highlighted could be true if the one learning wish to become a worshiper of ifá on his or her own but to become a medium for ifá ọmọ that's a LIE!🙂

So in essence you are saying an Eurooean or an Hausa man can not become an Awo? Go online and you will see non Yorubas who hold the senior ranks of Oluwo and Araba. You start as an Awo then later become Ojugbona and depending on your expertise and number of people you bring up yiu become Oluwo and then Araba. Oluwo is like PhD while an Araba is a Prof. An Ojugbona is like a graduate assistant. No matter the lineage you come from you can not become Araba without paying your dues

Now you are deviating from the main issue!
All these titles you mentioned could be reached if you choose to become one of the worshipers not a consultant.
Know that they are wealthy and not poor like you so they don't practice ifá for making their income rather they seek refuge under ifá for protection and that is why they continue to grow to the highest rank but not practicing ifá for daily bread!🙂

lawani:
So in essence you are saying an Eurooean or an Hausa man can not become an Awo? Go online and you will see non Yorubas who hold the senior ranks of Oluwo and Araba. You start as an Awo then later become Ojugbona and depending on your expertise and number of people you bring up yiu become Oluwo and then Araba. Oluwo is like PhD while an Araba is a Prof. An Ojugbona is like a graduate assistant. No matter the lineage you come from you can not become Araba without paying your dues

Well if you've been banned due to your anger know that i never intend to hurt your feelings what i hate is when you come talking about Jesus that you know nothing about. With the little you have heard from me you should know by now that i'm not a novice in spirituality but let's leave that for another day.
Get something worthwhile to do ifá will never ever enrich you through being a consultant.
May you have peace!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
Well if you've been banned due to your anger know that i never intend to hurt your feelings what i hate is when you come talking about Jesus that you know nothing about. With the little you have heard from me you should know by now that i'm not a novice in spirituality but let's leave that for another day.
Get something worthwhile to do ifá will never ever enrich you through being a consultant.
May you have peace!🙂

I have been banned two times
My problem with you is even a well brought up ten year old knows broke shaming people is immoral but you are not different from the religionists that lynched Deborah in Sokoto. Then how did you know I am poor?

You are also wrong to advise me not to base on IFA to earn a living as it is a honest livelihood source for many Awo. Advise people not to steal. You can not spend ten years to learn something and then be told not to be rich from it. You can't however become a billionaire as a fellow Awo can only be a partner and not a servant of another Awo. A Babalawo work only under God after qualifying as explained in Otura Osa.

Then nobody is an Oluwo or Araba that does not consult for people. You are fond of making baseless claims on this forum

Then take me up maturedly and without insults on anything I say about your God Jesus

I hope this response too won't be deleted as the first two were deleted.

lawani:
✓ I don't need to be engaging you if you don't know these basic things. I will not give you any evidence. You only know to speak English. I only responded because of how you put down your own ancestors

Don't bother engaging me if all you have to offer in response to pretty absurd claims made by you are these things. 🥱🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
Don't bother engaging me if all you have to offer in response to pretty absurd claims made by you are these things. 🥱🥱🥱

But you are a kindergarten student of history for asking me for evidence that palm oil, clothes, soap and etc were shipped from the west African coast to Europe and the Americas. It is either that or you are just trying to be funny.

I know many Awo and none of them are into consultancy for ifá because they are wealthy as in 100 times richer than me some are business men, doctors, lawyers and many more but one thing i do tell them is that there is more to life than wealth.

Now back to you my friend.

Only lazy people goes into learning how to become alfa, pastor or babalawo to practice consultancy hard working individuals learn a trade or handiwork to feed their families!🙂

lawani:
I have been banned two times
My problem with you is even a well brought up ten year old knows broke shaming people is immoral but you are not different from the religionists that lynched Deborah in Sokoto. Then how did you know I am poor?

You are also wrong to advise me not to base on IFA to earn a living as it is a honest livelihood source for many Awo. Advise people not to steal. You can not spend ten years to learn something and then be told not to be rich from it. You can't however become a billionaire as a fellow Awo can only be a partner and not a servant of another Awo. A Babalawo work only under God after qualifying as explained in Otura Osa.

Then nobody is an Oluwo or Araba that does not consult for people. You are fond of making baseless claims on this forum

Then take me up maturedly and without insults on anything I say about your God Jesus

I hope this response too won't be deleted as the first two were deleted.

lawani:
✓ But you are a kindergarten student of history for asking me for evidence that palm oil, clothes, soap and etc were shipped from the west African coast to Europe and the Americas. It is either that or you are just trying to be funny.

See this one! pretending he speaks of history. Imagine claiming that because leather tanned in Hausa land ended up being traded by Moroccans to individuals in Europe means Hausas had been exporting goods to Europe and the United States. Nonsense! 🥱🥱🥱

Kobojunkie:
See this one! pretending he speaks of history. Imagine claiming that because leather tanned in Hausa land ended up being traded by Moroccans to individuals in Europe means Hausas had been exporting goods to Europe and the United States. Nonsense! 🥱🥱🥱

lol 😂😆

MaxInDHouse:
I know many Awo and none of them are into consultancy for ifá because they are wealthy as in 100 times richer than me some are business men, doctors, lawyers and many more but one thing i do tell them is that there is more to life than wealth.

Now back to you my friend.

Only lazy people goes into learning how to become alfa, pastor or babalawo to practice consultancy hard working individuals learn a trade or handiwork to feed their families!🙂

You don't know many Awos. It is like saying someone became a medical consultant without seeing fifty patients in total. Nobody can become Oluwo without consulting for others and having students.

Awo Orunmila is a handwork and if you are really good then you will have no time for any other handwork. You will only be investing your earnings into other things. Can somebody seeing thirty people a day have time for any other thing?

I am not saying people should not have multiple sources of income though

lawani:
You don't know many Awos. It is like saying someone became a medical consultant without seeing fifty patients in total. Nobody can become Oluwo without consulting for others and having students. Awo Orunmila is a handwork and if you are really good then you will have no time for any other handwork. You will only be investing your earnings into other things. Can somebody seeing thirty people a day have time for any other thing?
I am not saying people should not have multiple sources of income though

You are just lying to yourself.
Awo doesn't mean they must become consultants o it simply means they've attained another level many of them don't live their profession and some are even claiming PASTORS in our society.
So stop lying because such ones can't abandon their church and start consulting ifá publicly!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
You are just lying to yourself.
Awo doesn't mean they must become consultants o it simply means they've attained another level many of them don't live their profession and some are even claiming PASTORS in our society.
So stop lying because such ones can't abandon their church and start consulting ifá publicly!🙂

You can qualify as an Awo and not practice surely but you can not become an Oluwo without having students and consulting for people. You can't build something on nothing. You are the one lying that you know Oluwos and Arabas who don't consult for people. That is a blatant lie and to think you are accusing another person of lying

I decided to drag you into divulging what you were hiding before.
So from our discussion so far ifá has a lineage of worshipers, it's not all worshipers that go into consultancy, and professionals from other fields can also seek protection from ifá, the ranks in ifá doesn't necessarily means a person must be a consultant before attaining higher level in ifá and finally oluwos only act as medium for members of their group not for commercial purposes!

Thanks for your time!🙂

lawani:
You can qualify as an Awo and not practice surely but you can not become an Oluwo without having students and consulting for people. You can't build something on nothing. You are the one lying that you know Oluwos and Arabas who don't consult for people. That is a blatant lie and to think you are accusing another person of lying

MaxInDHouse:
I decided to drag you into divulging what you were hiding before.
So from our discussion so far ifá has a lineage of worshipers, it's not all worshipers that go into consultancy, and professionals from other fields can also seek protection from ifá, the ranks in ifá doesn't necessarily means a person must be a consultant before attaining higher level in ifá and finally oluwos only act as medium for members of their group not for commercial purposes!

Thanks for your time!🙂

You are just going back and forth. You can't become an Oluwo without having students. How is that hard to understand? You have to teach people to become an Oluwo. So how can you possibly find an Oluwo who does not consult for people? Even his students? It may not be full time. Yes but you must be consulting for people.

You are just mentioning worshipper as a religionist but they are actually clients. A client does not even need to know how to read ifa signs. Just follow the directive your Awo gave you

lawani:
You have to teach people to become an Oluwo.

So are you saying those you are calling to come and pay you ₦20,000 for their consultation are aspiring to become Olúáwo?😂
Ọmọ the Olúáwo only teach members of the Awo like Apènà, Aṣípa, Lísà how to progress not just anybody!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
So are you saying those you are calling to come and pay you ₦20,000 for their consultation are aspiring to become Olúáwo?😂
Ọmọ the Olúáwo only teach members of the Awo like Apènà, Aṣípa, Lísà how to progress not just anybody!🙂

So you don't even know the difference between Awo Ogboni and Awo Orunmila? Those titles are Ogboni titles and Oluwo Ogboni does not have to be a Babalawo. Oluwo Ogboni just need to be an upright person ready to work for humanity.

When you pay a Babalawo to work for you, it is just to work for you and not to teach you ifa.

Is there any Olúwo who is not a member of Ògbóni?🙂

lawani:
So you don't even know the difference between Awo Ogboni and Awo Orunmila? Those titles are Ogboni titles and Oluwo Ogboni does not have to be a Babalawo. Oluwo Ogboni just need to be an upright person ready to work for humanity.
When you pay a Babalawo to work for you, it is just to work for you and not to teach you ifa.

MaxInDHouse:
Is there any Olúwo who is not a member of Ògbóni?🙂

Possible in today's world since they are not the same organisation but unlikely

lawani:
Possible in today's world since they are not the same organisation but unlikely

So originally all Oluwos are Ògbónis.
Right?🙂

MaxInDHouse:
So originally all Oluwos are Ògbónis.
Right?🙂

In the past, all free elderly men in a Yoruba city were Ogboni but it can be possible for a slave to become an Oluwo of the Awo Orunmila since it is by knowhow and expertise. Such a slave will not be a member of the Ogboni. A young man can also become Oluwo in ifa but a young man can not be Ogboni.

In today's world a practicing Babalawo will most likely belong to the Ogboni council in his city apart from being a member of the iledi of Awo Orunmila

I disagree with the highlighted because Ògbóni is political they are in charge of whatever goes on in the community while ifá priests are only consulted when there is need for their services.

That is why a slave can't become Olúáwo in Ògbóni.

lawani:
In the past, all free elderly men in a Yoruba city were Ogboni but it can be possible for a slave to become an Oluwo of the Awo Orunmila since it is by knowhow and expertise. Such a slave will not be a member of the Ogboni. A young man can also become Oluwo in ifa but a young man can not be Ogboni. In today's world a practicing Babalawo will most likely belong to the Ogboni council in his city apart from being a member of the iledi of Awo Orunmila.

MaxInDHouse:
I disagree with the highlighted because Ògbóni is political they are in charge of whatever goes on in the community while ifá priests are only consulted when there is need for their services.

That is why a slave can't become Olúáwo in Ògbóni.

The Awo Orunmila have their own community and they choose their leaders by themselves. They can bypass elderly people to appoint a younger person as Oluwo. I know of examples even in the modern day and it is to do with your expertise. They will not choose an incompetent person over a slave that is competent

lawani:
The Awo Orunmila have their own community and they choose their leaders by themselves. They can bypass elderly people to appoint a younger person as Oluwo. I know of examples even in the modern day and it is to do with your expertise. They will not choose an incompetent person over a slave that is competent.

So this Awo Ọ̀rúnmìlà is new because it's not what used to happen in ancient times!🙂

MaxInDHouse:
So this Awo Ọ̀rúnmìlà is new because it's not what used to happen in ancient times!🙂

How is it different? You learn under a master and from master to master then become a master and start rising through the ranks. It is still the same thing

lawani:
How is it different? You learn under a master and from master to master then become a master and start rising through the ranks. It is still the same thing.

Can you remind me any ancient ifá ranking in the history of Yorùbás?🙂

triplechoice:
You're confusing objectivity with verifiability. When I said "It is objectively true that I had that dream", I was making a claim about an event in the world, that a specific mental experience occurred in my brain at a specific time, and that is an objective fact like ",It rained yesterday"

The content of my dream is subjective (I never denied that) and not verifiable by others. But the occurrence of the dream, the fact that I experienced it, is as objective as any biological process. I never claimed the flying was physically real. I said the experience was real. That is the subtle but crucial distinction you missed

But who is to say dream content has no connection with objective reality, making them "real" What you dismiss as "subjective" may not be so . A wet dream, for instance, has a biological cause, buildup of sexual tension, and the brain creates a movie which triggers physiological processes to dissipate that energy .

You created confusion at the beginning by not clearly articulating your thought, and now shifting the goalpost after you logic was faulted . You started by saying "any claim or proposition"", without specifying, must be objectively proven to pass truth. That was the reason I brought up dreams, love and consciousness, which are regarded as truth even though not testable according to your strict standard. By your reasoning, one should doubt their own dreams, even their own thoughts since they cannot be measured or falsified. In other words, my thoughts, your thoughts, would not be true by your standard

Abraham Lincoln dreamt of his assassination, and it happened the way he dreamt it. When he shared the dream, it was dismissed as mere fantasy, until it became reality. But to you the dream content is not truth despite the fact the dream has become reality.

What you're insisting on is scientism: the claim that all truth can only be known through the scientific method. Thiat is incorrect because there are alternative methods for knowing truth. Scientists hardly use the word "truth" because they know science deals with provisional models that survive testing, not capital -T Truth. Falsifiability is a tool for weeding out bad theories, not a definition of what is real

So no, your narrow standard does not get to dismiss love, dreams consciousness, or my inner experience as untrue. You are the one who confused a useful method with the nature of reality itself. Please update your epistemology.

Like I said you clearly don't know what objectivity means. Id help you out.

Merriam Webster : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Cambridge : based on real facts and not influenced by personal beliefs or feelings:

Existing independent of or external to the mind; actual or real.

If you were confused that's a you problem, the title of the thread was literally a claim about objective reality. I don't know why you're foaming at the mouth. Writing wouldn't change fact no matter how upset you are beacuse it seems you can't smuggle what are empty claims about objective reality as truth. Id also suggest you educate urself on the definition of truth, it has facts in there somewhere, then educate urself on what a "fact" is.

It is not my standard, it is "the standard" virtually everywhere no matter how upset it makes you feel, unfortunately feelings and opinions have nothing to do with truth. It's a good thing I never once mentioned science and it's a good thing even outside of a lab the same properties are used to demonstrate what is factual and what is factual = truth.